Snooping 101

[Juniper22]

Again...until you get a clue on what it REALLY takes to work through something like this...I guess all you can do is come to a thread like this and complain about how pathetic it is to have to do something like this.

 

Perhaps if you had some basic understanding of what this is like...had gone through it perhaps...you could provide SOME KIND of useful, relevent post?

 

Here's where your still lost (I figured that it should be pointed out to you)...

 

1. ANYONE who is cheating will lie about it. PERIOD. It's not a question of "IF"...it's a simple point blank fact.

 

2. In order to start moving the situation forward, the truth has to come out.

 

3. (Let me know if I'm moving too fast for you) The only way that you can get the truth to come out is to find it yourself, and/or gather enough information that convinces the cheating party to "come clean".

 

4. Again...see number 1. They'll lie, unless you have "proof" to the contrary. (Still with me?)

 

5. So, you spy. Keyloggers, GPS, tracking cell phone usage...etc...all are TYPICAL steps that a betrayed spouse nearly always has to use at some point to gather enough information to get the affair "exposed", so that the WS (wayward spouse) can no longer deny, but is instead forced to deal with the situation.

 

6. Once the WS is forced to see that their lies are no longer being believed, this typically forces a decision that they fought hard to avoid...BS vs. OW/OM.

 

7. (I do hope you're not struggling too hard with this...take a break and breathe slowly if your head is hurting) The "spying" is a SHORT TERM strategy with two intended goals.

 

A. Get the truth out in the open.

B. Allow the fWS to demonstrate to the BS that they have changed and are now becoming trustworthy. (yes, that's right...in order to trust someone again, you have to VERIFY that they're behaving in a trustworthy fashion...I know...scarey thought).

 

 

If you really take a moment and THINK about what's gone on to lead up to someone cheating...you can see why the BS might actually have to take measures to get the truth out of a situation.

 

If you give some consideration to the fact that just because a relationship/marriage is in a situation NOW...it doesn't mean that it has to STAY in that situation forever. Just because a BS has to "snoop" now...it doesn't mean that this is what the relationship remains forever.

 

Instead of calling people pathetic...why not instead give some actual THOUGHT to what steps might be needed to resolve a cheating situation????

 

 

I love this, its so true!

 

Although, on number 4. I knew of someone who had the proof because they walked in on their husband in the bed with another woman, and again found them kissing out in public and to this day that man still denies it! Told his wife she didn't know what she was seeing! I was thinking, wow not only is he a cheater, but he is crazy too!

[clv0116]

.... just because a relationship/marriage is in a situation NOW...it doesn't mean that it has to STAY in that situation forever.

 

Correct. That's why we have divorce.

[JackJack]

Correct. That's why we have divorce.

 

I'm not sure on this, but maybe the advice given on what Owl was referring to, was more so for people who do NOT want to divorce, who want to try and work on things in the marriage. If they DO want to divorce then there is probably no real need to continue to snoop, etc. Just get the separation/divorce proceedings underway.

[Owl]

Correct. That's why we have divorce.

 

 

From JackJack

I'm not sure on this, but maybe the advice given on what Owl was referring to, was more so for people who do NOT want to divorce, who want to try and work on things in the marriage. If they DO want to divorce then there is probably no real need to continue to snoop, etc. Just get the separation/divorce proceedings underway.

 

Glad you got this, JackJack.

 

You're exactly right. This is the route you would have to take on trying to work things out.

 

Divorce is NOT the only outcome of infidelity...nor is it the only HAPPY solution either.

 

But some people just don't want to believe that I guess. Perhaps their own experiences were so bitter that recovery wasn't possible...and they simply want to convince themselves since THEIR situation wasn't recoverable, no one's is?

 

Who knows...CLV has yet to discuss anything about their experiences.

[clv0116]

I'm not sure on this, but maybe the advice given on what Owl was referring to, was more so for people who do NOT want to divorce, who want to try and work on things in the marriage. If they DO want to divorce then there is probably no real need to continue to snoop, etc. Just get the separation/divorce proceedings underway.

 

If you can't sit down and discuss it without "proof" and get a resolution then you're just fooling yourself. If they are having trouble and want to fix the issues they will be relieved and cooperative. If you need to go to this level you're setting yourself up (see some of the other posters other threads) to tolerate a series of flings that will likely never end.

 

If reconciliation is the goal you're wasting your time. If you're in a fault State or something then it's potentially useful.

[JackJack]

If you can't sit down and discuss it without "proof" and get a resolution then you're just fooling yourself. If they are having trouble and want to fix the issues they will be relieved and cooperative. If you need to go to this level you're setting yourself up (see some of the other posters other threads) to tolerate a series of flings that will likely never end.

 

If reconciliation is the goal you're wasting your time. If you're in a fault State or something then it's potentially useful.

 

Trust needs to be rebuilt once broken...if someone does NOT want to rebuild that trust by prooving themselves worthy of being trusted, then like I said earlier, they are welcome to proceed with a divorce.

 

The same goes for the person that was cheated on, if they do NOT want to work on things , if they feel they will always "wonder" for the rest of their lives what their spouse is doing by snooping etc, etc, they can also proceed with a divorce.

 

No one HAS to remain married once they have been wronged if they do NOT want to. If two people do WANT to work on things, then its going to take a process. If its pointless and/or to much work for them to do so, then yes, get divorced.

[Owl]

If you can't sit down and discuss it without "proof" and get a resolution then you're just fooling yourself. If they are having trouble and want to fix the issues they will be relieved and cooperative. If you need to go to this level you're setting yourself up (see some of the other posters other threads) to tolerate a series of flings that will likely never end.

 

If reconciliation is the goal you're wasting your time. If you're in a fault State or something then it's potentially useful.

 

Again...my life, my experiences have shown me the exact opposite of your claims.

 

I followed this exact route.

 

My marriage is WELL reconciled and recovered.

 

I've not "set myself up for a series of flings" by any means. IF my wife were to cheat in any fashion again...there would be NO attempt at reconciliation at all on my part....none. However, I firmly do believe that we'll never go down this particular path again.

 

Your posts sneer at those who try to recover marriages after infidelity...yet you post nothing about your own personal experiences to back them up? You deride people who find themselves in a situation where these tactics are actually their best option...and yet you can't actually give any real FACTS to support your views?

 

What's made you so bitter?

[clv0116]

.... If its pointless and/or to much work for them to do so, then yes, get divorced.

 

One doesn't have to get divorced but if the other party denies and denies until proof is presented they are not sincere in wanting to fix the core issues. The 'wronged' party has to decide if they want to put up with periodic indiscretions, something they could have done without the fuss and bother of a bunch of James Bonding around.

 

Honestly the only cases I've known of it working out into a long term monogamous solution is where the guilty party spontaniously came clean and then the couple worked out the core issues on both sides.

[Owl]

Interesting...because I've often thought that my recovery turned out so well because my wife was "busted" as opposed to "coming clean".

 

And I'm not saying that just to be contrary...here's why I think this.

 

I think that alot of times when people "come clean", they (the WS) actually set the stage for recovery. They orchestrate things to go how THEY want it to go...they often retain all the power in the relationship.

 

Yes...they're dependent upon the BS's willingness to forgive them. But...they often control what information about the affair gets doled out...and when, and how. And they typically do all kinds of "damage control" before they "come clean". They minimize their own wrongdoing, they intentionally set the stage so that they appear to be the one "doing the right thing". In other words, they pay very little "penalty" for what they've done wrong. They often end up not regretting their choice to cheat nearly as much as someone who was "busted".

 

In my situation, my wife never got the chance to "come clean". I suspected something for about a month...but she denied/lied/etc... Finally, I"d had enough and I installed a keylogger on her computer, got the full evidence I needed via her emails and IM's with OM.

 

She was "busted".

 

She couldn't deny, couldn't minimize, couldn't lie her way out of it.

 

She HAD to admit to everything...

 

As I'd said earlier...she went the normal gamit of gaslighting/anger over being spied on/etc...but it held no water. She couldn't successfully blame me when her own actions demonstrated why I had to spy in the first place.

 

Had I NOT spied...had I NOT caught things at precisely the point I did...our recovery would have been impossible.

 

But...I can tell you that our recovery worked out GREAT. We've got an awesome marriage. We had a wonderful, long time foundation of great marriage PRIOR to the affair to build from. We made a lot of change in how we did things to "affair proof" our marriage as much as you can reasonably expect to do. She gradually rebuilt her trustworthiness with me.

 

I highly doubt that she would have admitted the affair at any point unless she was already prepared to leave and file for divorce.

 

I think that the vast majority of WSs will NEVER admit the affair without proof.

 

But I don't believe that the only ones that are recoverable are the ones that do so.

[Owl]

One doesn't have to get divorced but if the other party denies and denies until proof is presented they are not sincere in wanting to fix the core issues.

 

A cheater NEVER "wants" to fix the core issues in the marriage.

 

A cheater nearly always wants the best of BOTH worlds...the marriage AND the affair.

 

They don't seek an affair as a means to fix the core issues...they seek the affair to AVOID the core issues.

 

But once the affair is out in the open...they have no choice but to deal with the core issues.

 

And that's what can lead to a successful recovery.

[PandorasBox]

One doesn't have to get divorced but if the other party denies and denies until proof is presented they are not sincere in wanting to fix the core issues. The 'wronged' party has to decide if they want to put up with periodic indiscretions, something they could have done without the fuss and bother of a bunch of James Bonding around.

 

Honestly the only cases I've known of it working out into a long term monogamous solution is where the guilty party spontaniously came clean and then the couple worked out the core issues on both sides.

 

Of course the person who cheated wouldn't want to be, spied on. But the thing is, if they are not doing anything they shouldn't, then it shouldn't matter anyway, if the spouse is playing James Bond.

 

True, SOME do come clean on their own, but alot do not, and just like many people who have done wrong or wont admit to something, they will deny it till the cows come home.

[clv0116]

A cheater NEVER "wants" to fix the core issues in the marriage.

 

In my (second hand) experience that's not true. In all of the cases I know of the 'cheater' was pretty seriously unhappy in the marriage and felt extremely conflicted and guilty about the affair, to the point of coming clean about it to the offended party.

 

The determining factor in those cases as to whether the relationship was fixed was actually the degree to which the offended party insisted on playing blame games as opposed to addressing the core issues that set the cheating spouse up to be vulnerable to temptation.

 

In cases where 'proof' was needed I've only seen a temporary fix, maybe a handful of years, before it happens again.

 

In one of the above cases where the offended partner refused to look at core issues and simply demanded fidelity as something they were owed. Not gonna work. So while I'm sure it works in a few cases it's not been my experience that it's often the source of a long term fix.

 

 

How long has it been, BTW? Less than 5 years ago? Best of luck in any case.

[clv0116]

..... they will deny it till the cows come home.

 

In other words, they lie repeatedly to your face over an extended period of time. I can't see a basis for future trust there.

[Owl]

We're right at the five year timeframe now.

 

I would agree that often a cheater does become guilty...eventually.

 

Sometimes that is YEARS down the road.

 

From MY second hand experience for the last four years on this board and others...very often, the cheater will take active measures to maintain the status quo...keeping both spouse AND affair partner on the hook.

 

Rarely do they actually "turn themselves in". Far more often, they're busted by a BS who suspects something is going on.

[Owl]

In other words, they lie repeatedly to your face over an extended period of time. I can't see a basis for future trust there.

 

BUT...being "busted" by that proof forces an end to the lies...it brings the truth out in the open...and DOES set the stage for recovery.

 

The basis for future trust is set AFTER the truth comes out...AFTER they go through the "normal process" of the end of the affair.

 

Try reading "Surviving an Affair"...it outlines this process pretty well.

 

You're right...you can't rebuild a marriage with a lying, cheating spouse.

 

So you take active measures to end the cheating and lying...which allows recovery to happen with someone who is no longer doing either.

[clv0116]

Rarely do they actually "turn themselves in". Far more often, they're busted by a BS who suspects something is going on.

 

Point being that as you say, if they had to be busted they don't want to fix things, they are HAPPY cheating and fear is all that is keeping them in line. They WANTED the whole enchilada and lacked any sort of internal regulation to make them want to stop.

 

One can't realistically expect to build anything on that foundation.

[Owl]

Point being that as you say, if they had to be busted they don't want to fix things, they are HAPPY cheating and fear is all that is keeping them in line. They WANTED the whole enchilada and lacked any sort of internal regulation to make them want to stop.

 

One can't realistically expect to build anything on that foundation.

 

 

 

Have you never done something wrong...been caught...but truly felt guilty about it once you were caught and saw the damage you'd done...and made a change to never do that again?

 

You know...actually learned from doing something stupid?

 

Not as a kid, or a teenager?

[clv0116]

Have you never done something wrong...been caught...but truly felt guilty about it once you were caught and saw the damage you'd done...and made a change to never do that again?

 

If it was something I felt guilty about I never spent an extended period of time denying it after being confronted or called on it. That's the fundamental difference here. Maybe if lying is not a big deal to one then this doesn't apply but then I wouldn't want to be with someone like that anyway.

[PandorasBox]

In other words, they lie repeatedly to your face over an extended period of time. I can't see a basis for future trust there.

 

I would think alot of times, yes, the person will deny it.

 

When I found out my ex husband had cheated when we were married, he denied it, he even denied when I presented the proof to his face. Man was he full of excuses. blah blah blah!

 

There was no more snooping after he cheated, no need to snoop any further than I had prior to finding out. I did so when I THOUGHT something was going on, but wasn't for sure. When I did find out for sure, I chose to NOT try to rebuild anything with him. I didn't beat around the bush, I went on with what I had to do to get things started with a divorce.

 

People have to do what works best for them. If they want to try to rebuild things, fine, if not, that's fine too. Its really all in what one wants to do.

[Owl]

If it was something I felt guilty about I never spent an extended period of time denying it after being confronted or called on it. That's the fundamental difference here. Maybe if lying is not a big deal to one then this doesn't apply but then I wouldn't want to be with someone like that anyway.

 

You're still deliberately missing the point.

 

Clearly I can't explain something to someone who simply REFUSES to attempt to see what I'm talking about.

[sally4sara]

I guess the thing I've always wondered about this is - what do you do once you find out?

 

I know as a woman, if my partner was cheating, filing first means I don't come out of the divorce as nicely as if he filed first. It costs the filing person more for filing and they usually give up more for being the one wanting out.

So if I found he was cheating, not only do I get the hurt from the betrayal, but I get monetarily hurt for wanting rid of him as a partner. If I wait till he files, well, I have to look at him everyday till then with the knowledge of what is going on. If he wasn't the sort to wait till he was single before picking up someone new, just how long would that take?

 

I guess I've just always been content to be content till the problem surfaces naturally rather than twist myself up looking for problems. Its not that I've never thought about the whole snoop thing, I just don't see the need unless I'm already wanting out for my own reasons. And if I want out, no amount of fidelity or lack there of is going to change it.

 

I know I'm fairly naive on the subject. I hope I get to stay that way.

[Owl]

I guess the thing I've always wondered about this is - what do you do once you find out?

 

I know as a woman, if my partner was cheating, filing first means I don't come out of the divorce as nicely as if he filed first. It costs the filing person more for filing and they usually give up more for being the one wanting out.

So if I found he was cheating, not only do I get the hurt from the betrayal, but I get monetarily hurt for wanting rid of him as a partner. If I wait till he files, well, I have to look at him everyday till then with the knowledge of what is going on. If he wasn't the sort to wait till he was single before picking up someone new, just how long would that take?

 

I guess I've just always been content to be content till the problem surfaces naturally rather than twist myself up looking for problems. Its not that I've never thought about the whole snoop thing, I just don't see the need unless I'm already wanting out for my own reasons. And if I want out, no amount of fidelity or lack there of is going to change it.

 

I know I'm fairly naive on the subject. I hope I get to stay that way.

 

So what if your H suddenly becomes emotionally cold and distant? Stops caring for you, stops telling you that he loves you? Starts "working late" and "taking business trips" that you know he's not actually being required to do for work?

 

The purpose of this is to get the "proof" when you suspect something is going on...we're not talking about arbitrarily and randomly spying for no apparent reason.

 

Once you know...that's up to you, and what you want to do with that information. But if you don't know, there's no way for you to decide what to do, right?

[sally4sara]

So what if your H suddenly becomes emotionally cold and distant? Stops caring for you, stops telling you that he loves you? Starts "working late" and "taking business trips" that you know he's not actually being required to do for work?

 

I start becoming unhappy with the relationship and ask questions. Discuss solutions to the problems he tells me are the cause. Perhaps we see a counselor? If he is honest, we can find a solution. If he is dishonest, I become further unhappy and seek to end the relationship. At some point, I guess I expect the truth to come out in some form on its own.

 

You did catch the part where I stated I am naive to the OW/OM aspect in relationships right? Please, my comment was not a judgment against snoopers. Just a wondering as to how healthy it is and to what resolve it takes a person who chooses to snoop. If you want to school me on it great! I like learning, but asking me "what ifs" is rhetorical since I don't have experience in being a long term BS or having a partner with an on-going OW/OM.

Beyond that, I have no reason to think critically of you. I'm sorry you expect me to; that must suck.

 

Do you think the things you learned through snooping would've come to surface eventually without snooping? Do you feel the information you found through snooping helped you come to a good solution? Was the information gained beneficial to legal proceedings or just peace of mind to motivate seeking legal proceedings?

[Owl]

I hadn't taken any offense to your post, Sally...simply responded back with a situation that was very relevent to your question. I didn't take it as an attack or judgement, by any means, and I apologize if my response made you feel that way at all.

 

The "what if" that I posed was directly related to the entire reason behind this thread...that "snooping" is often REQUIRED for a BS to get the truth of the situation, so that it can be addressed.

 

If you've never been there, it's really hard for you to consider what you may or may not do...most of us who HAVE been here probably didn't do what we THOUGHT we would when we got here...I know that I surely didn't.

 

At the end of it all...the "snooping" gets you the truth. Yes, it does get it to you sooner, and usually in far more detail than you're ever likely to get from a cheating spouse otherwise.

 

The "damage" done to your relationship by the snooping is nearly always inconsequential compared to the damage done by the infidelity itself. It becomes little more than a "footnote" in the scheme of things.

 

The snooping in MY case was to let me clearly understand what was going on...the depth and nature of the relationship between my W and the OM. I SUSPECTED what it might be, but of course was lied to by my wife while it was ongoing...and that's a NORMAL response for someone who IS cheating.

 

I didn't do it with any intent to "use it" legally.

 

From what I've seen here and on other forums, it rarely IS usable in any fashion legally.

 

It's most commonly used to get information about the state of the marriage that is otherwise denied to the BS...and they typically use that information to decide their next steps...attempted reconciliation or divorce.

 

Does that help clear up any of your questions?

[sally4sara]

Yeah, it helps. If it isn't information I could use in legal measure, then I don't think I'll ever snoop. I do believe you are correct in how we never know what we will do till we are in the situation. So I can only say what I hope to do if I find myself in that spot.

I have been cheated on before. Nothing ongoing long term because I always just knew somehow (things were off about them) and they admitted to it when pressed. I'm good at pressing. I'm good at tells. When I've spotted them, the name, shape, and smell of the truth didn't matter to me as much as the fact I could see I was being lied to. My previous marriage was so bad due to his alcoholism, I actually hoped he would leave for someone else. It looked like he would but it didn't hold. I ended it when it it became obvious he had changed his mind and wanted to come back.

 

I don't think any of the methods discussed in this thread would be applicable to my current relationship anyhow and would be an exercise in futility and stress; my intended is a computer whiz professionally with a work supplied phone and access to company transportation. I already have his tells mapped though. I hope I never need more than that.