Do you think MM blame OW for not being able to control themselves

[grogster]

That's an interesting question. In my one and only affair, a MW at work pursued me relentlessly. Then once our affair went into overdrive, she would cry and plead whenever I'd try to end it (which I attempted multiple times).

 

Do I blame her? No. I was an adult, and I was completely responsible for my unfaithful behavior. Nonetheless, the MW took the lead and I, ever so flattered at being pursued, allowed myself to be led. Never again.

 

The affair is long over, and I have not seen her in almost 5 years or spoken to her in 3 years. Her marriage thrives, and mine is over.

 

Reap what you sow, sometimes.

[jj33]

Im sorry this just boggles my mind. I dont even see how you can think this is remotely a good idea. Kudos for being honest - this guy is married doesnt bother me, I just love how I feel when I am around him and wish he would make more of an effort to keep the affair on track.

 

 

How can anyone 'commit' to having an affair. They can know in their heart that they want to spend time with you and treat you like an important part of their life.

 

If you are in an affair surely you have guilt problems, you are always scared of being found out, there are moments when you can't leave the house, make a call even. No one can commit to an affair, can they?

 

Logistics are different than feeling emotionally committed to the idea that the other person is important to you and that you dont do things like stand them up etc etc.

 

I have been too understanding though and when he does not turn up, even though I believe the reasons, it feels like utter sh.... and I go on such a downer.

 

So this is not doing wonders for you is it?

 

Conversely when i do see him, it is the best feeling in the world, so it's a choice between life being hum drum or the ecstacy/misery which i am hooked to like a drug. Even if i see him in the car, i feel sick. Today someone mentioned his w and i felt sick too. Worse still i was thinking like if she found out, she knows everyone, my life would be even more sh... and so would hers to boot. what if he said it was me that kept calling him, even though that was our arrangement.

 

Yes and WHY is it your arrangment that you are essentially pursuing him? When he is married and often may not be able to pick up the phone etc. Isnt that odd? Its totally the wrong dynamic unless you are someone who likes to be in control and that is clearly not you.

 

He has stopped and started, more started than stopped, so i just thought he was just getting his head sorted.

 

sorted for what? talking himself into being ready to cheat? Its all such a wrong dynamic.

 

Is this common the stopping and starting in affairs - anyone?

 

I guess the guilt eats away though and eventually you cannot cope with it. I am starting to feel it now, although i was so carried away with the love/passion aspect, i did not feel it before because it made me feel so different, so high, so beautiful. I need to understand Dobler what he is going through to make him so fickle. My mind is analysing every word now, and I am seeing my own ar.. I wish it would stop. The fog is lifting, but I am not sure I want to see through it. Thanks for the input guys.

 

You only want to see what you want to see. This is clear.

 

Question - other than an ego boost which you are apprently unable to get from single men, why are you with this guy at all?

 

Are you seriously thinking that this will go from ambivalent about being in an affair to true love?

 

You cant be really can you?

 

and no I am not a bitter BS I am a realistic person who hates to see people fool themselves and waste endless time crying over someone who clearly doesnt really care about them

[2sure]

The way people "commit" to having an affair is no different than a commitment in any other relationship in that requires some sacrifice and some gain from both parties.

 

Obviously, the sacrifices and gains are secret so this affects what they are. Time, fidelity (usually on part of OW only), availability, warm & fuzzy feelings, making life easier in some way, etc.

 

Sacrifice and gains. What are you sacrificing? What are you gaining?

What is he sacrificing? What is he gaining?

 

If they are relatively equal, this is affair commitment. If they are not, someone is being used.

[delirious]

That's an interesting question. In my one and only affair, a MW at work pursued me relentlessly. Then once our affair went into overdrive, she would cry and plead whenever I'd try to end it (which I attempted multiple times).

 

Do I blame her? No. I was an adult, and I was completely responsible for my unfaithful behavior. Nonetheless, the MW took the lead and I, ever so flattered at being pursued, allowed myself to be led. Never again.

 

The affair is long over, and I have not seen her in almost 5 years or spoken to her in 3 years. Her marriage thrives, and mine is over.

 

Reap what you sow, sometimes.

I find your post interesting grogster, why did you end the affair particularly, and surely you would not have started again unless you felt something. You do however sound like you are blaming her for you being attracted to her. Can I ask what happened to your marriage? Was it because of the A.

[delirious]

The way people "commit" to having an affair is no different than a commitment in any other relationship in that requires some sacrifice and some gain from both parties.

 

Obviously, the sacrifices and gains are secret so this affects what they are. Time, fidelity (usually on part of OW only), availability, warm & fuzzy feelings, making life easier in some way, etc.

 

Sacrifice and gains. What are you sacrificing? What are you gaining?

What is he sacrificing? What is he gaining?

 

If they are relatively equal, this is affair commitment. If they are not, someone is being used.

What you sacrifice depends on what you gain, less sacrifice less gain in anything in life I believe. This would be hard to measure surely? We both stand to lose equally.

[delirious]

Quote

 

You only want to see what you want to see. This is clear.

No, i am seeing my own ar... that is why i came on her. But like i said the fog is clearing.

 

Question - other than an ego boost which you are apprently unable to get from single men, why are you with this guy at all?

I am married

Are you seriously thinking that this will go from ambivalent about being in an affair to true love?

i had not really thought about it, it just felt strong.

You cant be really can you?

 

and no I am not a bitter BS I am a realistic person who hates to see people fool themselves and waste endless time crying over someone who clearly doesnt really care about them

I thought he did, i would not have done this had i thought he was using me.

 

Thanks JJ, you did not help me, i guess you did not want to.

[Owl]

Delirious, I'm curious...what are you doing to rebuild/reconcile/recover your marriage?

 

How much focus/effort are you placing on fixing that, where you used to spend time focusing on OM?

 

While I understand your desire to see "his side"...I think you'd be better off focusing on fixing YOUR marriage rather than looking back and trying to understand HIS viewpoints.

 

This isn't an attack...it's an honest suggestion.

[delirious]

Delirious, I'm curious...what are you doing to rebuild/reconcile/recover your marriage?

 

How much focus/effort are you placing on fixing that, where you used to spend time focusing on OM?

...........

Sorry it is not what I asked, and it does sound like a criticism. It is not something i want to go into in depth. Maybe on another forum.

[Owl]

Fair enough...I'll offer no more comment or advice.

[jj33]

I did want to help but you dont seem to want help. Help comes in all forms not just playing the ooh what is he thinking game. You should read the link WS put on another thread about why if you need to ask these questions you need to just steer clear of the person.

 

Basically an affair is no different than any other relationship insofar as if you arent happy you get out. Quicker than in a real relatinshp because the other person sure as hell better be trying, they are married.

 

If they arent, then why are you there (that was how I took it all).

 

So if the other person is ambivalent, you walk. Nothing more demoralising than being with a married man who doesnt know what he wants. If he doesnt know he wants you - at least on the limited basis of an affair, then its crazy to put yourself through that kind of pain.

[delirious]

I did want to help but you dont seem to want help. Help comes in all forms not just playing the ooh what is he thinking game. You should read the link WS put on another thread about why if you need to ask these questions you need to just steer clear of the person.

 

Basically an affair is no different than any other relationship insofar as if you arent happy you get out. Quicker than in a real relatinshp because the other person sure as hell better be trying, they are married.

 

If they arent, then why are you there (that was how I took it all).

 

So if the other person is ambivalent, you walk. Nothing more demoralising than being with a married man who doesnt know what he wants. If he doesnt know he wants you - at least on the limited basis of an affair, then its crazy to put yourself through that kind of pain.

 

Yeah I do need help, just because I question what you said, does not mean I don't want help. I do appreciate your point of view. Like I said at the beginning, it is over, I just need to walk away. I feel better today for talking - thank you. And Owl, sorry I did not mean to offend you, but I really don't want to go there on this posting. It would complicate matters. I need to get this sorted first. I have told my H.

[delirious]

I find your post interesting grogster, why did you end the affair particularly, and surely you would not have started again unless you felt something............

 

Come back to me Grogie, what do you mean 'once the affair went in overdrive'. I guess I did cry the first time he finished, but he restarted.

 

JJ there is nothing wrong with trying to understand how people think in this situation.

[Owl]

And Owl, sorry I did not mean to offend you, but I really don't want to go there on this posting. It would complicate matters. I need to get this sorted first. I have told my H.

 

You're missing the point that both JJ and I have tried to make to you.

 

You do NOT need to "get this sorted first".

 

You WANT to...because it still allows you to focus on OM. It's your "fix" of the affair drug, and it's an "out" to allow you to dodge focusing on the next step...fixing or ending your marriage.

 

You DON'T need to understand what he's thinking/going through. You WANT to.

 

Recognize that there really is a distinction here.

 

And identify what's a distraction from solving your problems and moving forward, and what steps you need to take to actually accomplish those goals.

 

Again, don't think I'm calling you out here. I'm not. What you're doing is all "part of the script". It's normal behavior post-affair...we've seen this same cycle repeated literally by hundreds of other posters who have been through here before.

 

Pointing it out to you and trying to help you break that mindset IS support...because it's exactly what you're going to have to do at some point to truly start recovering from all of this.

[Owl]

JJ there is nothing wrong with trying to understand how people think in this situation.

 

There is when it's a distraction from actually addressing and dealing with the issues that you need to in order to recover.

 

And that's exactly what this is...a distraction from focusing on the steps you really need to take...and it's a short term fix of the OM...vicariously, but still exactly that.

[wildsoul]

You're missing the point that both JJ and I have tried to make to you.

 

You do NOT need to "get this sorted first".

 

You WANT to...because it still allows you to focus on OM. It's your "fix" of the affair drug, and it's an "out" to allow you to dodge focusing on the next step...fixing or ending your marriage.

 

You DON'T need to understand what he's thinking/going through. You WANT to.

 

Recognize that there really is a distinction here.

 

And identify what's a distraction from solving your problems and moving forward, and what steps you need to take to actually accomplish those goals.

 

Again, don't think I'm calling you out here. I'm not. What you're doing is all "part of the script". It's normal behavior post-affair...we've seen this same cycle repeated literally by hundreds of other posters who have been through here before.

 

Pointing it out to you and trying to help you break that mindset IS support...because it's exactly what you're going to have to do at some point to truly start recovering from all of this.

Such profound words! You're 100% right.

 

What you're pointing out is such a higher-level of awareness that I can only hope the OP might grasp it. You might be casting your pearls indiscriminately.

[dobler33]

Such profound words! You're 100% right.

 

What you're pointing out is such a higher-level of awareness that I can only hope the OP might grasp it. You might be casting your pearls indiscriminately.

 

 

i see the wisdom of all your advice, y'all, but as someone who is only very recently out of that place of confusion and (sometimes willful) blindness, i have a pretty clear memory of just NOT being able to hear anything anyone said to me on this point. it's been long enough that i now know the truth of it, the "script" as you call it, but it just doesn't make sense until some of that pain fades. i had people telling me that he was never going to leave and that i had to look to my own shores, that i was putting my hand in the blender and was going to get hurt, that i needed to be able to think about the pain it was causing around me..... i'm telling you that it was absolute greek to me at that point. the chemicals in your brain are so out of whack from stress and endorphins and crazy love-drug dopamine, all your executive functioning goes out the window. so delirious, you may not be able to hear this now but tuck it away for when you get your brain back, take it out then and remember that you're not alone and that this advice does come from long experience. and LS family, be a little patient with delirious and folks like her, cause what looks like willful resistance and bloody-minded stubbornness can often be a case of total neuron-misfire, the actual inability to hear or understand your words.

 

much love to you all from a recently insane OP.

[wildsoul]

i see the wisdom of all your advice, y'all, but as someone who is only very recently out of that place of confusion and (sometimes willful) blindness, i have a pretty clear memory of just NOT being able to hear anything anyone said to me on this point. it's been long enough that i now know the truth of it, the "script" as you call it, but it just doesn't make sense until some of that pain fades. i had people telling me that he was never going to leave and that i had to look to my own shores, that i was putting my hand in the blender and was going to get hurt, that i needed to be able to think about the pain it was causing around me..... i'm telling you that it was absolute greek to me at that point. the chemicals in your brain are so out of whack from stress and endorphins and crazy love-drug dopamine, all your executive functioning goes out the window. so delirious, you may not be able to hear this now but tuck it away for when you get your brain back, take it out then and remember that you're not alone and that this advice does come from long experience. and LS family, be a little patient with delirious and folks like her, cause what looks like willful resistance and bloody-minded stubbornness can often be a case of total neuron-misfire, the actual inability to hear or understand your words.

 

much love to you all from a recently insane OP.

I agree a thousandfold. Recently out of the thick of withdrawals from my breakup, I can attest that it takes all of one's efforts to get thru one day at a time. The higher understandings often come naturally later.

[NoIDidn't]

The higher understandings often come naturally later.

 

I don't think they come naturally to most of us. Its a skill that has to be learned, I think.

 

Some people will continue to have these kinds of outcomes because they don't ever develop the higher understandings. Or, they don't develop them because they are too stubborn and pigheaded to concede that they actually could have done some thing about the situation they went through other than wallow in it and let it "happen" to them.

[Owl]

Interesting...Dobler you need to go and post something totally ludicrous so that I can go back to disagreeing with you...because I've been agreeing with you far too much lately.

 

I've never considered it from a neuro-chemical perspective, but have long been aware that there are times when someone simply cannot see anything but what they WANT to see.

 

And all you can do is wait for things to change...for the timing to be right that they finally are open and receptive to what they need to hear.

 

And...it seems to be an EXTREMELY common occurrence when it comes to dealing with ANYONE involved in an affair.

 

All I can do is offer the best advice I can give...the acceptance (or not) of it is outside of my control.

[dobler33]

Interesting...Dobler you need to go and post something totally ludicrous so that I can go back to disagreeing with you...because I've been agreeing with you far too much lately.

 

I've never considered it from a neuro-chemical perspective, but have long been aware that there are times when someone simply cannot see anything but what they WANT to see.

 

And all you can do is wait for things to change...for the timing to be right that they finally are open and receptive to what they need to hear.

 

And...it seems to be an EXTREMELY common occurrence when it comes to dealing with ANYONE involved in an affair.

 

All I can do is offer the best advice I can give...the acceptance (or not) of it is outside of my control.

 

oh no, owl, whatever will we do? i'll go eat a puppy or something so you can go back to reviling me. yes, the neuro-chemicals are sort of key, here. we are slaves to our neurotransmitters, in some senses. in others of course we are not. there have been studies that have shown that the massive near-lethal doses of the feel-good NT's coursing through your brain when in love or lust actually ALTER the neuropathways and chemical makeup of said brain. one literally becomes mentally disabled. of course, there are plenty of folks who either refuse to cease the circumstances under which these drugs are being administered - cause they just feel so damn GOOD, i mean come on, right? - or who simply do not learn from past misery. it's hard to tell which someone's going to turn out to be at this early stage, when they're struggling to keep their head above the sea of madness that this kind of love entails. that's all i'm sayin. give the girl a chance to get her head together and stop hearing greek before we condemn her as unremittingly foolish.

[NoIDidn't]

And all you can do is wait for things to change...for the timing to be right that they finally are open and receptive to what they need to hear.

 

And...it seems to be an EXTREMELY common occurrence when it comes to dealing with ANYONE involved in an affair.

 

Its not limited to just those in Affairs (even though that is what this forum is dedicated to).

 

Its just about any kind of addictive behavior. People avoid withdrawal like the plague. It feels too much like death. And, depending on the addiction, withdrawal can lead to death.

 

Sometimes you never get that openning, though.

[delirious]

Interesting...Dobler you need to go and post something totally ludicrous so that I can go back to disagreeing with you...because I've been agreeing with you far too much lately.

 

I've never considered it from a neuro-chemical perspective, but have long been aware that there are times when someone simply cannot see anything but what they WANT to see.

 

And all you can do is wait for things to change...for the timing to be right that they finally are open and receptive to what they need to hear.

 

And...it seems to be an EXTREMELY common occurrence when it comes to dealing with ANYONE involved in an affair.

 

All I can do is offer the best advice I can give...the acceptance (or not) of it is outside of my control.

Yeah Owl and Dobler, there is a script, I have been reading others starting where I started, how they were finding their soulmates, how this was passion beyond belief. But Dobie, yeah I have been in a chemical induced state for so long, I don't know my ar.. from my elbow (british saying). I literally felt my head full of something (crap probably) that I thought I was the first person in the world to feel like this. It is like first love. Reading how people come out of it will help. I have been so in love, and now, I am starting to come out. I am not sure I will like what I see when I do, and I don't want to, but I must. Thanks y'all. First day no tears.

[NoIDidn't]

I have been so in love, and now, I am starting to come out. I am not sure I will like what I see when I do, and I don't want to, but I must.

 

The freedom from that "heady" kind of love is far better than that kind of love. You learn a self-control that is far more valuable.

 

(I'm not saying you have no self-control, just that you learn a different kind. The kind that is more protective of your heart and emotions and doesn't allow just anyone to attempt to manipulate them ever again. Well, most of the time, anyway.)

 

Good luck.

[delirious]

The freedom from that "heady" kind of love is far better than that kind of love. You learn a self-control that is far more valuable.

 

(I'm not saying you have no self-control, just that you learn a different kind. The kind that is more protective of your heart and emotions and doesn't allow just anyone to attempt to manipulate them ever again. Well, most of the time, anyway.)

 

Good luck.

 

I am weak, i know.

Thanks NID:bunny:

[dobler33]

Yeah Owl and Dobler, there is a script, I have been reading others starting where I started, how they were finding their soulmates, how this was passion beyond belief. But Dobie, yeah I have been in a chemical induced state for so long, I don't know my ar.. from my elbow (british saying). I literally felt my head full of something (crap probably) that I thought I was the first person in the world to feel like this. It is like first love. Reading how people come out of it will help. I have been so in love, and now, I am starting to come out. I am not sure I will like what I see when I do, and I don't want to, but I must. Thanks y'all. First day no tears.

 

oh, honey, i'm crying for you a little here because i know exactly what that feels like. it is a big, big loss to wake up from that dream. it's still fresh enough in my mind that my heart cramps up a bit on your behalf. there will be a balance that you strike between the mad denial and the terrible feeling that you've been duped. this is why i keep advocating for the both/and: those feelings were real in that moment, and at the same time they were based on a total lack of reality. both of these things are true. daft chemicals AND true feelings of love. as you move through the stages of grief you'll take up different positions, and most will be quite black and white because that is what we have to do to heal. you'll know you've gotten somewhere when you can hold all realities in your mind at the same time: he loved you/was just using you. you loved him/were just fooling yourself. it was a terrible mistake/it was the most beautiful time in your life. that's what you're shooting for, love. it does get easier, just like everybody's saying.