Do you think MM blame OW for not being able to control themselves

[delirious]

oh, honey, i'm crying for you a little here because i know exactly what that feels like. it is a big, big loss to wake up from that dream. it's still fresh enough in my mind that my heart cramps up a bit on your behalf. there will be a balance that you strike between the mad denial and the terrible feeling that you've been duped. this is why i keep advocating for the both/and: those feelings were real in that moment, and at the same time they were based on a total lack of reality. both of these things are true. daft chemicals AND true feelings of love. as you move through the stages of grief you'll take up different positions, and most will be quite black and white because that is what we have to do to heal. you'll know you've gotten somewhere when you can hold all realities in your mind at the same time: he loved you/was just using you. you loved him/were just fooling yourself. it was a terrible mistake/it was the most beautiful time in your life. that's what you're shooting for, love. it does get easier, just like everybody's saying.

I don't want to think it was all for nothing. I thought it was something big. I am still telling myself it was, it probably wasn't though. I am thinking how he was the first few months, like we were the only ones on the planet, I figure he has come out of this and kicked himself in the butt before me. Now I need a kick in the butt. Thanks Dobie. I was relating greatly to that chemical business. I know something has happened in my head and it was doing weird things to me. I just want to keep on a level for a bit now and I can start to come out of it. But I think if I see him,( even just passing in the car) it will all change. Wouldn't it be great if you could just inject yourself with something and you would be back to normal again. I really am not me anymore.

[dobler33]

I don't want to think it was all for nothing. I thought it was something big. I am still telling myself it was, it probably wasn't though. I am thinking how he was the first few months, like we were the only ones on the planet, I figure he has come out of this and kicked himself in the butt before me. Now I need a kick in the butt. Thanks Dobie. I was relating greatly to that chemical business. I know something has happened in my head and it was doing weird things to me. I just want to keep on a level for a bit now and I can start to come out of it. But I think if I see him,( even just passing in the car) it will all change. Wouldn't it be great if you could just inject yourself with something and you would be back to normal again. I really am not me anymore.

 

 

oh yes you are, delirious. this is part of you, just as the things you're proud of are part of you. these injuries make us who we are just as our joy makes us who we are. both/and, baby. not either/or. i think maybe when you say that you are not you anymore there is a feeling that he has taken something from you, taken something out of you and left you a different and maybe diminished person. i absolutely understand and remember this feeling. it also fades, along with everything else. you get this piece of yourself back, and when you do you find that you never lost it. in those first few days i walked around repeating to myself: "you are here and this is now. you are here and this is now" just to keep myself in my own skin, in my own body, to counteract the feeling that i was literally coming apart at the seams. you, delirious, are here and this is now, and all of you is still in there and is not going anywhere. hang on, sister.

[delirious]

oh yes you are, delirious. this is part of you, just as the things you're proud of are part of you. these injuries make us who we are just as our joy makes us who we are. both/and, baby. not either/or. i think maybe when you say that you are not you anymore there is a feeling that he has taken something from you, taken something out of you and left you a different and maybe diminished person. i absolutely understand and remember this feeling. it also fades, along with everything else. you get this piece of yourself back, and when you do you find that you never lost it. in those first few days i walked around repeating to myself: "you are here and this is now. you are here and this is now" just to keep myself in my own skin, in my own body, to counteract the feeling that i was literally coming apart at the seams. you, delirious, are here and this is now, and all of you is still in there and is not going anywhere. hang on, sister.

I am hanging in there, well hanging into a bottle of wine at the moment but still there.

[dobler33]

I am hanging in there, well hanging into a bottle of wine at the moment but still there.

 

 

HA! whatever gets you through the night, my dear. i personally subsidized a large chunk of the west coast winery industry in those first two weeks. *hic*

[Owl]

Delirious, this is partially why I asked about where you're at on rebuilding your marriage.

 

If you're FOCUSED on rebuilding your marriage...your ability to focus on the OM is much, much less.

 

Therefore...you "get over him" far, far faster than you do if you've got nothing else to focus on.

 

Being in a crisis mode trying to work on repairing the damage done to your marriage will get you through this period of loss much faster than anything else can. I'm speaking from experience, having watched my wife and many others go through this same process.

 

I won't mention it again, and please don't feel obligated to respond to this if you don't want to...I'm offering you something to give some real thought to.

[dobler33]

Delirious, this is partially why I asked about where you're at on rebuilding your marriage.

 

If you're FOCUSED on rebuilding your marriage...your ability to focus on the OM is much, much less.

 

Therefore...you "get over him" far, far faster than you do if you've got nothing else to focus on.

 

Being in a crisis mode trying to work on repairing the damage done to your marriage will get you through this period of loss much faster than anything else can. I'm speaking from experience, having watched my wife and many others go through this same process.

 

I won't mention it again, and please don't feel obligated to respond to this if you don't want to...I'm offering you something to give some real thought to.

 

i see the wisdom in this, oh wise owl. for myself, though, it took a good 10 days of struggling moment to moment with the big huge bring-you-to-your-knees grief and loss of the OM, and during that time i truly couldn't focus on much more than staying alive. literally. during that time i also don't think my H could have done much more than reel from the shock of it; we gave each other a lot of space to do whatever grieving we needed to do, as mortuary as that made the mood of our house. it took a while for either of us to begin trying to focus on rebuilding. i'm not sure where delirious is with this time-wise, but if she's still dealing with that grinding grief she may not be able to deal with much else.

 

of course she's probably passed out in front of the telly with an empty bottle of rotgut red in her limp hand at the moment, but i can't say i haven't been there myself.

[ednadean]

I think it depends on the MM. In my EA -- MM was always clear that he blamed himself for all the contact.

 

What I have noticed is the the media and women in general ALWAYS blame the OW - not matter what the circumstance.

 

People on this forum seem to be much more understanding! thank goodness

[Owl]

i see the wisdom in this, oh wise owl. for myself, though, it took a good 10 days of struggling moment to moment with the big huge bring-you-to-your-knees grief and loss of the OM, and during that time i truly couldn't focus on much more than staying alive. literally. during that time i also don't think my H could have done much more than reel from the shock of it; we gave each other a lot of space to do whatever grieving we needed to do, as mortuary as that made the mood of our house. it took a while for either of us to begin trying to focus on rebuilding. i'm not sure where delirious is with this time-wise, but if she's still dealing with that grinding grief she may not be able to deal with much else.

 

of course she's probably passed out in front of the telly with an empty bottle of rotgut red in her limp hand at the moment, but i can't say i haven't been there myself.

 

Again, this makes complete sense.

 

It's withdrawl.

 

Virtually every WS (wayward spouse) and OW/OM go through this at the end of the affair. It's a deep, dark depression/anxiety attack/bottoming out when the realization that the affair is over hits. I can completely believe how horrible this was for you...I nursed my wife through her withdrawl at the end of her EA.

 

And it doesn't go away suddenly. It fades slowly over time.

 

But the "coping strategy" that I suggested for Delirious is one way to work it to it's end a little faster.

 

It FORCES you to raise your head from your own despair while you're trying to help someone else (your spouse) in dealing with THEIR despair.

[dobler33]

Again, this makes complete sense.

 

It's withdrawl.

 

Virtually every WS (wayward spouse) and OW/OM go through this at the end of the affair. It's a deep, dark depression/anxiety attack/bottoming out when the realization that the affair is over hits. I can completely believe how horrible this was for you...I nursed my wife through her withdrawl at the end of her EA.

 

And it doesn't go away suddenly. It fades slowly over time.

 

But the "coping strategy" that I suggested for Delirious is one way to work it to it's end a little faster.

 

It FORCES you to raise your head from your own despair while you're trying to help someone else (your spouse) in dealing with THEIR despair.

 

 

i am really amazed and touched that you nursed her through the end of her EA. that is something i wouldn't have asked of my H. i worked really hard to keep as much of that withdrawal out of his immediate environment so that he didn't feel obligated to nurse me at all - i felt it would have been cruel to want that from him. what gave you the strength to hold her up when you must have been hurting just as deeply?

[Owl]

i am really amazed and touched that you nursed her through the end of her EA. that is something i wouldn't have asked of my H. i worked really hard to keep as much of that withdrawal out of his immediate environment so that he didn't feel obligated to nurse me at all - i felt it would have been cruel to want that from him. what gave you the strength to hold her up when you must have been hurting just as deeply?

 

Love...what else?

[LaGazelle]

I think it depends on the MM. In my EA -- MM was always clear that he blamed himself for all the contact.

 

What I have noticed is the the media and women in general ALWAYS blame the OW - not matter what the circumstance.

 

People on this forum seem to be much more understanding! thank goodness

 

 

I think the reason for this is that, women are through a combination of nature and nurture, generally more controlled/less impulsive, so their involvement in affairs are thought to be more calculating and wilfully intended to harm the BW in order to get what they want. Of course, things are slightly different when the OW is unaware that the AP is married.

 

While many men are unable to intrinsically anticipate or comprehend the extent of the BW's pain and trauma in such situations, the OW should by virtue of being a woman, be able to - and therefore not get involved.

 

The majority of men seem to possess a mysterious capability to not think of consequences before acting - which can also be a useful trait. They are socialised to be more impulsive, whereas women tend to be more caring, empathetic, compassionate and selfless. Behaviours to the contrary of these norms challenge some of the most fundamental principles of evolutionary psychology and human interaction.

 

There is quite extensive research on "mate poaching" that looks at this.

[dobler33]

I think the reason for this is that, women are through a combination of nature and nurture, generally more controlled/less impulsive, so their involvement in affairs are thought to be more calculating and wilfully intended to harm the BW in order to get what they want. Of course, things are slightly different when the OW is unaware that the AP is married.

 

While many men are unable to intrinsically anticipate or comprehend the extent of the BW's pain and trauma in such situations, the OW should by virtue of being a woman, be able to - and therefore not get involved.

 

The majority of men seem to possess a mysterious capability to not think of consequences before acting - which can also be a useful trait. They are socialised to be more impulsive, whereas women tend to be more caring, empathetic, compassionate and selfless. Behaviours to the contrary of these norms challenge some of the most fundamental principles of evolutionary psychology and human interaction.

 

There is quite extensive research on "mate poaching" that looks at this.

 

i would also suggest that even with all the advancements afforded by feminism, there is still an indoctrinated cultural belief that the bodies of women are owned by their male partners whereas the bodies of men are owned by themselves; hence the higher level of shock and disgust when a woman physically transgresses. there is also an indoctrinated cultural belief that women are without desire, or at least have less then men, which gives rise to a strange sort of "boys will be boys" permission for men to "lose control" of their libido and commit physical transgressions. i've done a lot of research on the tone and content of current sex ed curriculae in US schools, and you might be surprised how much "watch what you do cause boys can't control themselves" type sentiment there still is. yucky.

[dobler33]

Love...what else?

 

uh oh, owl, you're right. we've been agreeing far too much lately and i'm in serious danger of actually liking you.:laugh:

 

i admire your compassion and strength, my dear. your wife is a lucky woman. i feel similarly lucky, as my H expressed the same sentiment when we talked last night. my thanks and praise to you both for being rock-solid men who aren't afraid to take emotional risks for the sake of love.

 

yay love.

[Owl]

i would also suggest that even with all the advancements afforded by feminism, there is still an indoctrinated cultural belief that the bodies of women are owned by their male partners whereas the bodies of men are owned by themselves; hence the higher level of shock and disgust when a woman physically transgresses. there is also an indoctrinated cultural belief that women are without desire, or at least have less then men, which gives rise to a strange sort of "boys will be boys" permission for men to "lose control" of their libido and commit physical transgressions. i've done a lot of research on the tone and content of current sex ed curriculae in US schools, and you might be surprised how much "watch what you do cause boys can't control themselves" type sentiment there still is. yucky.

 

LOL...let's just say that my wife and I neither one share that mindset.

 

A marriage is a UNION...both ways.

 

It IS about ownership when you get down to it...and that ownership is a completely 2-way street.

 

I do have "sole rights" to my wife's body...just as she does to mine. We both have the exact same expectation of physical and emotional monogamy. We're both EQUALLY responsible for our actions, and "controlling ourselves".

[dobler33]

LOL...let's just say that my wife and I neither one share that mindset.

 

A marriage is a UNION...both ways.

 

It IS about ownership when you get down to it...and that ownership is a completely 2-way street.

 

I do have "sole rights" to my wife's body...just as she does to mine. We both have the exact same expectation of physical and emotional monogamy. We're both EQUALLY responsible for our actions, and "controlling ourselves".

 

well now, there you go, another display of your evolved awesomeness. unfortunately there is less of this sentiment in our current socio-psychological environment than you'd think. nothing will freak you out more than taking a peek at what we're teaching our kids about what a woman is and what a man is. gave me nightmares for weeks when i was doing the research. so keep it up, owl, and spread the word.

[LaGazelle]

i would also suggest that even with all the advancements afforded by feminism, there is still an indoctrinated cultural belief that the bodies of women are owned by their male partners whereas the bodies of men are owned by themselves; hence the higher level of shock and disgust when a woman physically transgresses. there is also an indoctrinated cultural belief that women are without desire, or at least have less then men, which gives rise to a strange sort of "boys will be boys" permission for men to "lose control" of their libido and commit physical transgressions. i've done a lot of research on the tone and content of current sex ed curriculae in US schools, and you might be surprised how much "watch what you do cause boys can't control themselves" type sentiment there still is. yucky.

 

Hmmm - this is where we don't see eye to eye. I am nearly 100% anti-feminist. I think it is one of the most destructive social "advances" mankind has ever know - and I speak from the position of a woman who has been lucky enough to enjoy some of the fruits of feminism. Anyway, you and I could argue for months on this one!!!

 

Nevertheless, I appreciate your point re double standards, we just have different views as to why these double standards exist and the extent to which we should "condone" them.

 

Cheers!

[LaGazelle]

LOL...let's just say that my wife and I neither one share that mindset.

 

A marriage is a UNION...both ways.

 

It IS about ownership when you get down to it...and that ownership is a completely 2-way street.

 

I do have "sole rights" to my wife's body...just as she does to mine. We both have the exact same expectation of physical and emotional monogamy. We're both EQUALLY responsible for our actions, and "controlling ourselves".

 

This is very much in line with "old fashioned" traditional Christian beliefs. It is funny how society often comes full circle with its moral compass. I suppose we have to explore our own way and feel the pain to appreciate the "best" way.

[Owl]

Well, that's why I've always felt that it isn't the school's job to teach my children ethics and morals...it's mine.

 

But bear in mind that these "wrong teachings" apply both ways too.

 

While some 'teachings" provide that men can get away with more than women, they also teach boys that it's their responsibility to provide and care for women, for example. Our society has ALWAYS taugh that "a man doesn't hit a woman" even if attacked by a woman in the first place.

 

If you think about it, that's just sexism going in the other direction. A woman is equally responsible for providing for herself as a man is...and the division of labor/income should be agreed upon by both parties, not determined by sex.

 

Fair is fair is fair. You can't have it both ways, ya know?

 

I'm a believer in EQUALITY.

[bentnotbroken]

well now, there you go, another display of your evolved awesomeness. unfortunately there is less of this sentiment in our current socio-psychological environment than you'd think. nothing will freak you out more than taking a peek at what we're teaching our kids about what a woman is and what a man is. gave me nightmares for weeks when i was doing the research. so keep it up, owl, and spread the word.

 

 

Only for weeks:eek:. It gave me PTSD:p It is a sad situition that is slowly killing all of us to a degree.

[dobler33]

Well, that's why I've always felt that it isn't the school's job to teach my children ethics and morals...it's mine.

 

But bear in mind that these "wrong teachings" apply both ways too.

 

While some 'teachings" provide that men can get away with more than women, they also teach boys that it's their responsibility to provide and care for women, for example. Our society has ALWAYS taugh that "a man doesn't hit a woman" even if attacked by a woman in the first place.

 

If you think about it, that's just sexism going in the other direction. A woman is equally responsible for providing for herself as a man is...and the division of labor/income should be agreed upon by both parties, not determined by sex.

 

Fair is fair is fair. You can't have it both ways, ya know?

 

I'm a believer in EQUALITY.

 

 

i like to say that nobody should hit anybody for any reason. i have worked with men who are physically or psychologically abused by their female partners and the double standard we're talking about screws them over like you wouldn't believe. i think there is likely far more abuse of men by women than we know about, because men in this situation are acculturated not to report and get help when they are being "beat up by a girl". you won't ever hear me saying that women should get more or less of anything, different anything. hell, my husband and i have separate bank accounts even after nearly a decade, because i insisted on it. i absolutely agree that these double standards go both ways, although i suspect we might have different ideas about the progenitors of them.

 

gazelle, it breaks my heart when i hear women say they are "anti-feminist", because it shows that certain feminist groups have propagated the same hatred and genderism that they purport to oppose. there are many different feminisms. mine is closer to a humanism, closer to what owl is touching on. i believe that misogyny and oppression hurts EVERYBODY, as in the example above about abused men. oppression is just as injurious to the psyche of the oppressor as it is to the oppressed.

 

sorry, kind of a TJ, although the original question of the thread definitely leads one down this road, thinking about gendered double standards in general.

[dobler33]

Only for weeks:eek:. It gave me PTSD:p It is a sad situition that is slowly killing all of us to a degree.

 

dude, seriously. testify, sister.

[LaGazelle]

 

gazelle, it breaks my heart when i hear women say they are "anti-feminist", because it shows that certain feminist groups have propagated the same hatred and genderism that they purport to oppose. there are many different feminisms. mine is closer to a humanism, closer to what owl is touching on. i believe that misogyny and oppression hurts EVERYBODY, as in the example above about abused men. oppression is just as injurious to the psyche of the oppressor as it is to the oppressed.

 

sorry, kind of a TJ, although the original question of the thread definitely leads one down this road, thinking about gendered double standards in general.

 

Hmmm...it breaks my heart to have to be mostly anti-feminist. My stance is not intended to propagate "hatred" at all. In fact, my reason for taking that stance is because I feel a lot of feminism has done exactly that. it has played into men's hands to the further detriment of women.

 

You are going to be annoyed with me for saying this, but one of the major bugbears I have against feminism is the version of "sexual liberation" sold to women. In my view, it served only to change one status quo which deprived women equal "pleasure" in marriage partnerships, into another status quo that does that and much much worse. Women are now encouraged to "do it like the boys" - which means men no longer have to treat them like ladies! That leads to the chaos in gender relations and a lot of disappointment for the very women it was supposed to help. I find that heartbreaking!

 

Obvioiusly, I am all for the truly beneficial principles underpinning feminism, I just think things sadly went way too far.

[delirious]

Sorry i cannot reply right now, i cannot see clearly today. Will read again tomorrow.

[dobler33]

Hmmm...it breaks my heart to have to be mostly anti-feminist. My stance is not intended to propagate "hatred" at all. In fact, my reason for taking that stance is because I feel a lot of feminism has done exactly that. it has played into men's hands to the further detriment of women.

 

i think you misunderstood. i'm saying that certain kinds of feminism - an essentialist, anti-male portion that absolutely exists under the umbrella of feminism - are the ones propagating hatred and pushing away women like you who are ostracized and put off by them. i find it really, really sad and i run up against it a lot. i know exactly what you're talking about and i think it gives us all a bad name.

 

 

 

You are going to be annoyed with me for saying this, but one of the major bugbears I have against feminism is the version of "sexual liberation" sold to women. In my view, it served only to change one status quo which deprived women equal "pleasure" in marriage partnerships, into another status quo that does that and much much worse. Women are now encouraged to "do it like the boys" - which means men no longer have to treat them like ladies! That leads to the chaos in gender relations and a lot of disappointment for the very women it was supposed to help. I find that heartbreaking!

 

Obvioiusly, I am all for the truly beneficial principles underpinning feminism, I just think things sadly went way too far.

 

i too think we kind of got the short end of the stick when it came to "sexual liberation", but probably for different reasons. my objection is largely this: it was really very convenient for a swingin single guy back in the free love days to be all "hey baby, free up your mind and jump in the sack with me" but women were - and are - rarely afforded the same kind of sexual agency. we are still judged more harshly for the self-same behaviors, and still run the risk of being hugely disrespected by the very man we so liberatedly bed. just last week i had a heartbreaking conversation with one of the girls i work with in which she came to me crying because all the boys she knows can sleep with as many girls as he wants and get congratulated and if a girl sleeps with more than one boy she gets called horrible names. so, from my perspective here on the ground, ye olde sexual revolution never really happened at all.

 

but as for gender chaos, i'm afraid i'm all for it. i think it's the rigid gender binaries that get us into trouble: this is what a man does, this is what a woman does. this is what a man feels, this is what a woman feels. this is what a man is, this is what a woman is. there is almost no space between that and this is what a man is allowed to do that a woman is not allowed to do. and as i stated before, i feel the damage done by these binaries is just as severe for masculinity as it is for femininity. worse in some cases in fact. note the following: a little girl who acts boyish (i.e. physically strong, good at math, possibly even aggressive) is fondly called a tomboy, daddy's little girl, fierce and strong. a little boy who acts girlish (i.e. emotional, engaged, attached, cooperative, able to express feelings in an articulate way)is a sissy, a momma's boy, a pansy, and far worse that i won't muddy this board with. so i'm definitely not a woman who needs a door held open for me. but i'm not a woman who will slap somebody for trying, because we are all products of our acculturation and i would rather have an intelligent and lively conversation about the origins of door opening than accuse someone of being a prick for opening said door.

[dobler33]

Sorry i cannot reply right now, i cannot see clearly today. Will read again tomorrow.

 

hang in there, kitten. we'll be here tomorrow, whether you like it or not.