I am sick about this...

[dobler33]

It does seem odd, however, that you informed someone at the bar of their mentioning a threesome, yet you continued to associate and drink with them.

I know dobler comes at this from a very different perspective than I do as a former criminal defense attorney. I would feel pretty confidant that if this guy or his girlfriend were charged with sexual assualt, with these facts, they would walk.

 

i appreciate your different perspective, reggie. i think you're probably right, that they would walk. but i also believe that justice gets seriously miscarried in cases like this because of the misogyny that lingers in the systems of law and punishment on which we rely. i think the tone of many posters on this thread - that this is her fault, no matter what, despite the big old red flags that a few of us have seen - is proof that culturally we believe that "she was asking for it." after all, it was only in 1993 that spousal rape became illegal in all US states, and as late as 1999 it was still considered a "lesser offense" in 33 out of 50 states. spousal rape is a different legal issue, of course, but these statistics do point to an insidious influence of misogyny in our justice system, and also to our cultural misappropriation of "blame" in cases of unconsentual sex.

 

Thank you for your thoughts. I just have a hard time because I don't remember leaving the bar, OR allowing him to drive my car! The next thing I remember was being in a room.. things happening. then he starting doing somn and I said no, it hurt, and he kept doing it. I think by that time I was starting to realize what the hell was going on and what the hell I was doing and I got up and left them. But by that time it was to late.. I was already there and things had already happen

 

baby, i am so sorry. this was a sexual assault. he did something that you told him not to do and he kept doing it. that is the only definition that matters, it is the only fact that matters, it is the only moral question that matters. please let me know if i can help - let's figure out if we can exchange private messages and if you tell me where you are i can try to make some recommendations for support for you in your area. anyone know how we can do this? i don't think i'm an established member yet so i don't have private messaging yet.

[dobler33]

its a public forum

 

yes, and you are a public bully. but you have been politely asked to refrain from comment, and if you want to continue claiming that you are only here to help you will do so.

[Dexter Morgan]

yes, and you are a public bully. but you have been politely asked to refrain from comment, and if you want to continue claiming that you are only here to help you will do so.

 

thats ok, I'll be gone on vacation for a week anyway:)

 

public bully? wow, good words from people that betray others in real life

[HsMomma]

thats ok, I'll be gone on vacation for a week anyway:)

 

public bully? wow, good words from people that betray others in real life

 

Hey, I don't & haven't betrayed others...did you read my post?

[dobler33]

thats ok, I'll be gone on vacation for a week anyway:)

 

public bully? wow, good words from people that betray others in real life

 

you are entitled to your own moral opinion of me, and i am certainly not going to debate morality with such a pathologically rigid and unwavering mind. but as it's been pointed out, you have been asked to leave by the starter of this thread and common courtesy demands that you do so, public forum or not.

[Dexter Morgan]

Hey, I don't & haven't betrayed others...did you read my post?

 

yup

 

"Can you honestly say you've been respectful and/or helpful, Dex?"

 

 

as far as helpful, I asked her 2 simple questions and finally got an answer...and her answer, to me, is the right way to go.

 

so hopefully she is going to give her husband the respect he deserves, tells him, refrains from the activities that easily allowed her to betray him, and he just might understand if she is willing to show him that.

 

because until I pressed that issue, she really didn't show any indication that she really wanted to tell him and really didn't have any intentions of not drinking anymore.

 

now she says that is her intention...to which I say, GREAT!

[wuggle]

so hopefully she is going to give her husband the respect he deserves, tells him, refrains from the activities that easily allowed her to betray him, and he just might understand if she is willing to show him that.

 

because until I pressed that issue, she really didn't show any indication that she really wanted to tell him and really didn't have any intentions of not drinking anymore.

 

now she says that is her intention...to which I say, GREAT!

 

Sounds to me like you are glad that she has felt bullied into this decision.

 

PM my advice is to NOT rush into telling him. I'm NOT saying Don't tell him, just not yet. It really sounds to me like you haven't got anything even vaguely clear in your own head yet. Get a handle on this first before you make the decision which might rip all your lives to pieces.

 

I think you probably should tell him but definitely not yet. You need to figure out why you did this, get some counselling first, Hell, some on here are even talking about possible rape. Get counselling FIRST.

 

take care and don't let yourself feel bullied.

[stuckinoz]

yup

because until I pressed that issue, she really didn't show any indication that she really wanted to tell him and really didn't have any intentions of not drinking anymore.

 

now she says that is her intention...to which I say, GREAT!

 

So is that why you're in LS? To push people to think your way - To do things your way & when they agree to do so-You Win? Like a game - Interesting

[Reggie]

I am no expert on the history of misogyny, dobler. But, I can tell you that society has many prejudices that adversely affect men, as well. Some examples are forced military service, women and children first in lifeboats, disparate sentencing(particularly in child sex crimes), custody issues, access to spousal maintenance, and ignoring female on male domestic violence(which some studies suggest is more frequent than the reverse), to name a few.

But, on this issue of sexual assault, you have to keep in mind that it is not an uncommon occurence for a man to be falsely accused. And, the accusation alone is enough to ruin someone's reputation.

One would have to really develop the facts in this case, talk to witnesses and the alleged assailants and victim, look at the physical evicence etc to come to a meaningful conclusion that an assault took place.

Just listening to pm's story, without taking a lot of time to really think about it, even with my limited abilities, cross examination would not go well for her.

[Reggie]

you are entitled to your own moral opinion of me, and i am certainly not going to debate morality with such a pathologically rigid and unwavering mind. but as it's been pointed out, you have been asked to leave by the starter of this thread and common courtesy demands that you do so, public forum or not.

 

Now, really, dobler, you have insufficient information to make an assessment that someone is pathological. There is a bit of irony in you participating this way when it is the very thing you are objecting to.

[Dexter Morgan]

Sounds to me like you are glad that she has felt bullied into this decision.

 

PM my advice is to NOT rush into telling him. I'm NOT saying Don't tell him, just not yet. It really sounds to me like you haven't got anything even vaguely clear in your own head yet. Get a handle on this first before you make the decision which might rip all your lives to pieces.

 

I think you probably should tell him but definitely not yet. You need to figure out why you did this, get some counselling first, Hell, some on here are even talking about possible rape. Get counselling FIRST.

 

take care and don't let yourself feel bullied.

 

maybe you conveniently forgot that you cried foul about smelling a bs story?

[dobler33]

I am no expert on the history of misogyny, dobler. But, I can tell you that society has many prejudices that adversely affect men, as well. Some examples are forced military service, women and children first in lifeboats, disparate sentencing(particularly in child sex crimes), custody issues, access to spousal maintenance, and ignoring female on male domestic violence(which some studies suggest is more frequent than the reverse), to name a few.

But, on this issue of sexual assault, you have to keep in mind that it is not an uncommon occurence for a man to be falsely accused. And, the accusation alone is enough to ruin someone's reputation.

One would have to really develop the facts in this case, talk to witnesses and the alleged assailants and victim, look at the physical evicence etc to come to a meaningful conclusion that an assault took place.

Just listening to pm's story, without taking a lot of time to really think about it, even with my limited abilities, cross examination would not go well for her.

 

i agree with many of your points. i actually posted a similar opinion on one of the other threads somewhere. i absolutely believe that abused men are more common than reported, although perhaps not more common than the reverse, and that the same misogyny in reverse contributes to men not reporting. for a man to ask for support in this would feminize him in the eyes of society, and there is a deep inculcated hatred of the feminine in our society. i recommend stephen ducat's excellent book on femiphobia, "The Wimp Factor: Gender Gaps, Holy Wars and the Politics of Anxious Masculinity". i actually am an expert on the history of misogyny - no, don't laugh, it really is my area of study:o - but it is my belief that misogyny hurts the male psyche as much as the female psyche in many ways.

 

and in a case like this, i probably wouldn't advise a woman to prosecute, as much as i feel she deserves recognition and retribution, because of the reasons you state. cross would go poorly for her indeed, in part because enough of the jury is likely to think like some folks posting here - that, again, she was asking for it.

 

that being said, PM, you are deserving and in need of support and wherever you are, i feel certain there is some kind of support for you. let me know what i can do.

[Dexter Morgan]

So is that why you're in LS? To push people to think your way - To do things your way & when they agree to do so-You Win? Like a game - Interesting

 

no, I like to think I might help push someone to do right by the person they betrayed.

 

so many people out there that are f####d over, and so little people out there willing to do right by them

[dobler33]

Now, really, dobler, you have insufficient information to make an assessment that someone is pathological. There is a bit of irony in you participating this way when it is the very thing you are objecting to.

 

duly noted, reggie, and retracted. i am basing my use of the word on the rigidity and inflexibility of what i've seen of dex's posts, which is indeed definitionally pathological by any diagnostic measure. but you are absolutely correct, i do not know the guy. thanks for the gentle reprimand.

[wuggle]

maybe you conveniently forgot that you cried foul about smelling a bs story?

 

Not at all, please take your own advice to other posters and re-read what I said:-

 

It seems fairly obvious to me that she is lying about events of the night, what she remembers etc (to us and more importantly herself), how many people tell the truth straight out first off in cases like this ?

 

I don't see any good reason to keep going over whether or not she is telling the truth , let's all assume she isn't.

 

Is it not more important to try to figure out why she allowed\wanted this to happen ?

 

How was the marriage before this incident ? was it good ? feel close, feel loved ? , given attention or just treated as part of the furniture ?

 

Figure out why before you tell him.

 

 

I was saying (and still am) that the OP is probably lying to us and most importantly to herself about the events of that night. I know from personal experience how a person's brain will when faced with a complete f-up convince itself about things even though if they analysed them in the cold light of day they would see were rubbish.

 

I believe that in the course of time if she gets counselling she will come to accept the truths and importantly the reasons why she allowed or encouraged (no judgement) this to happen.

 

However the main point behind that thread was as diplomatic an attempt as I could manage to attempt to stop you mercilessly attacking her and move the conversation on to something more helpful to her.

 

She is a grown woman who has messed up, she doesn't have to answer to you or me, she doesn't deserve a kicking from us she is doing that to herself.

 

As you always say you like things stated clearly I will , Dexter please back off and stop bullying this woman. She has enough of her own problems, she is sad for what she has done and is hurtng , she doesn't need a kicking.

[Reggie]

i agree with many of your points. i actually posted a similar opinion on one of the other threads somewhere. i absolutely believe that abused men are more common than reported, although perhaps not more common than the reverse, and that the same misogyny in reverse contributes to men not reporting. for a man to ask for support in this would feminize him in the eyes of society, and there is a deep inculcated hatred of the feminine in our society. i recommend stephen ducat's excellent book on femiphobia, "The Wimp Factor: Gender Gaps, Holy Wars and the Politics of Anxious Masculinity". i actually am an expert on the history of misogyny - no, don't laugh, it really is my area of study:o - but it is my belief that misogyny hurts the male psyche as much as the female psyche in many ways.

 

and in a case like this, i probably wouldn't advise a woman to prosecute, as much as i feel she deserves recognition and retribution, because of the reasons you state. cross would go poorly for her indeed, in part because enough of the jury is likely to think like some folks posting here - that, again, she was asking for it.

 

that being said, PM, you are deserving and in need of support and wherever you are, i feel certain there is some kind of support for you. let me know what i can do.

 

I'll check out the book. Thanks. Delving into this infidelity thing has opend up my eyes in a lot of ways. I have been misabused of many of my former "Pollyanna" notions about women and the "gentler" sex theme. I hadn't an inkling about the prevalence of cheating among females and how driven they are by sex and their limbic systems. Nor was I aware of personality disorders, the prevalence of female on male domestic abuse, and the fallacious idea that women are better communicators and more emotionally developed. It's been an education.

Interesting take on the reluctance of men to report being based on misogyny, the reluctance to appear feminine, as that is an undesirable trait. But, can we trace all the disadvantages of being male to misogyny? How does lack of access to custody, spousal support fit in. How does having a monoply on the privelige of being shot or wounded in war fit in? Same with the disparate sentencing. I suppose the same argument could be made, that these "disadvantages" are linked to a desire to distance oneself from femininity. But, it seems an argument could also be made that men, rather than feeling superior, in fact, feel less entitled.

One of the more confusing aspects of bastardized feminism, is the oft seen phenomena of the doulbe standard, wanting the same rights without the attendant obligations. Men expierience this daily.

[Reggie]

duly noted, reggie, and retracted. i am basing my use of the word on the rigidity and inflexibility of what i've seen of dex's posts, which is indeed definitionally pathological by any diagnostic measure. but you are absolutely correct, i do not know the guy. thanks for the gentle reprimand.

 

Yes, but you must bear in mind that he has been badly traumatized by his wife's betrayal and the loss of access to his kids. He has a legitimate gripe as to the way the court sysytm treated him, as well.

I understand he has very established views on justice and fairness. These are good things, IMO. And, he displays a great deal of courage and conviction, supporting his view well, with logical , researched arguments. Guy would make a good lawyer(that may not be a compliment).

[dobler33]

I'll check out the book. Thanks. Delving into this infidelity thing has opend up my eyes in a lot of ways. I have been misabused of many of my former "Pollyanna" notions about women and the "gentler" sex theme. I hadn't an inkling about the prevalence of cheating among females and how driven they are by sex and their limbic systems. Nor was I aware of personality disorders, the prevalence of female on male domestic abuse, and the fallacious idea that women are better communicators and more emotionally developed. It's been an education.

Interesting take on the reluctance of men to report being based on misogyny, the reluctance to appear feminine, as that is an undesirable trait. But, can we trace all the disadvantages of being male to misogyny? How does lack of access to custody, spousal support fit in. How does having a monoply on the privelige of being shot or wounded in war fit in? Same with the disparate sentencing. I suppose the same argument could be made, that these "disadvantages" are linked to a desire to distance oneself from femininity. But, it seems an argument could also be made that men, rather than feeling superior, in fact, feel less entitled.

One of the more confusing aspects of bastardized feminism, is the oft seen phenomena of the doulbe standard, wanting the same rights without the attendant obligations. Men expierience this daily.

 

lack of custody and spousal support: the legal system assumes that the mother is the better caretaker, because women are supposed to mother and men are not. i.e., parenting is feminine and therefore women are supposed to do it and men who want to are feminized. it is assumed as well that men can take care of themselves and women cannot, thus the disparity in spousal support.

 

monopoly on the priveledge of being shot or wounded in war: i'm a little confused on this - are you referring to the fact that women have traditionally been disallowed or discouraged from entering the military? or is there some kind of disproportionate recompense given to women who are wounded over men?

 

disparate sentencing: i've heard this argued both ways; women are likely to get higher sentences because it is assumed that women don't commit crimes and therefore are considered more abhorent when they do, or women are likely to get lighter sentences because it assumed that women are less responsible for their actions and therefore more deserving of pity. which direction of disparateness are you referring to? i'd be interested to hear the views of a legal professional.

 

it has always been my belief that constructing any system - be it legal, judicial, labor, financial, familial, whatever - on the basis of a gender binary is just bound to screw somebody somewhere. double standards abound, i agree.

 

sorry, PM. TOTAL thread jack. i humbly shut up now.

[dobler33]

Yes, but you must bear in mind that he has been badly traumatized by his wife's betrayal and the loss of access to his kids. He has a legitimate gripe as to the way the court sysytm treated him, as well.

I understand he has very established views on justice and fairness. These are good things, IMO. And, he displays a great deal of courage and conviction, supporting his view well, with logical , researched arguments. Guy would make a good lawyer(that may not be a compliment).

 

it seems clear that he was badly traumatized, and that it was a legitimate trauma. many pathologically rigid and inflexible people have been badly traumatized. pathological rigidity and inflexibility are often the byproduct of trauma. i would however encourage him to seek treatment, rather than aggressively take his trauma out on this woman, especially as she has asked him to stop. in fact, she is on this board because she had an experience in which she asked a man to stop and he didn't. so in essence dexter is retraumatizing PM and blaming his own trauma for the need to do so. i'm not sure how this helps his case.

[Trimmer]

...I don't know why I did it, it was my pure stupidity!!!! Does that make everyone happier? now you have more details to beat me up about!

That was not ever my point. My point was to help you think about what you did, what may have been done to you, and how it all fits together. I now believe that your situation is complicated enough, and is causing you enough trauma that you should seek some professional (i.e. counseling) help to work through this, no matter what you ultimately discover about your part in the chain of events.

 

And I believe that given the severity of your situation, that is MUCH more likely to be helpful to you than sifting through the opinions of a bunch of anonymous posters on the internet.

 

Loveshack is great in a lot of situations, but in ones like this, we're little better than the apes at the zoo throwing feces at each other - and possibly harmful to someone still undergoing the repercussions of a recent trauma that we can't hope to properly explore, analyze, or diagnose. Go get some help.

[pelicanpreacher]

I have worked with this girl for a few months now.. never heard weird things about her. We co-manage a team together, so we thought we would go have a few drinks and some fun to just get to know one another outside of work... This GUY is no one I knew and she said she just met him that night...

 

Thank you for your thoughts. I just have a hard time because I don't remember leaving the bar, OR allowing him to drive my car! The next thing I remember was being in a room.. things happening. then he starting doing somn and I said no, it hurt, and he kept doing it. I think by that time I was starting to realize what the hell was going on and what the hell I was doing and I got up and left them. But by that time it was to late.. I was already there and things had already happen

 

PM, have you spoken with this X-girlfriend about her take on what occurred that evening? Your co-worker seems a bit fast if she's one to have sex with someone she's just met. It also seems even odder that she'd so willingly engage in a threesome with you without ever probing the subject at length in the past. It's obvious you didn't go out with your co-worker with the intention of having sex with her and, since she seemed to be willing, ready, and able to take on all comers that evening, I get the strong impression that the evening's activities weren't mere coincidence.

 

I don't think any guy is that suave or good looking that he can pick out two random females in a bar and sucessfully make a habit of seducing them into a threesome that very night nowadays unless one female is an accomplice and/or he has a date rape drug on hand to render both females too incapacitated to object. The fact that you lost consciousnesss during your transport to his home, can't remember undressing yourself, yet can still remember bits and pieces of the actions occurring during that evening and only jolted to a sober state when you felt pain makes me believe you may have been under the influence of a narcotic in conjunction with the alcohol. If you believe your co-worker may have in fact been acting in concert with his efforts to manuever you into this predicament then I'd strongly suggest that you have the two of them investigated to find out as much as you can about them. If you find evidence that this girl did know this guy prior to that evening then her lie to the contrary is evidence of her guilt and complicity and further steps need to be taken.

[schewter]

<<

Yes, of course it does, but in my world, they own their behaviors and take personal responsibility for the consequences to those who have suffered damages from it.>>

 

And in your world that means telling, confessing, coming clean...and that is fine for you...that is your belief. My world is greyer...I believe a person can make the worst of mistakes like PM but one needs to weigh the probable outcomes of every option before deciding how to proceed. Last summer, before I knew my wife was having an EA I was going through withdrawals and a fulll out emotional breakdown...my wife since coming clean told me that she could not tell me then because I was too fragile...she is right, I was. She chose right for OUR situation.

 

 

<<I don't take any pleasure in anyone's suffering, but if we take the editorial use of that word "suffer" out of the equation, I do firmly believe that one should willingly face and accept the consequences of one's behavior and choices. Do you truly find that pathetic?>>

 

What I find pathetic is when people apply THEIR values to other people's situations with limited information in an attempt to bully the person (PM in this case) into doing what the advice giver deems as appropriate consequences for their actions.

 

 

 

 

 

 

<<I don't often agree with Dexter's manner, delivery, or extremism, but I do agree with his "...then don't drink at all" point to the OP. If one's judgement gets "lost" when one drinks - or put more directly, if one chooses to forfeit keeping a grip on one's judgement by choosing to start drinking - then how can you ever have even a single drink; why would that person with such a loose grip on her judgement ever allow herself to take even the first tiny step down that slippery slope? Where can you trust yourself to draw the line? If the first drink lowers your "judgement" even just enough to make the bad choice to have a second drink, etc...., then how can you ever justify drinking again?>>

 

If everybody whoever did anything completely stupid and out of character during a night of heavy drinking never drank again because of it nobody would drink. I don't see pattern behaviour in PMs story...it oozes isolated event to me...why are some on here making the assumption that this lady is some sort of lush?

[schewter]

It does seem odd, however, that you informed someone at the bar of their mentioning a threesome, yet you continued to associate and drink with them.

I know dobler comes at this from a very different perspective than I do as a former criminal defense attorney. I would feel pretty confidant that if this guy or his girlfriend were charged with sexual assualt, with these facts, they would walk.

 

Reggie, is there anything in law as it pertains to PMs story that addresses the question of whether she was in any condition to give consent? If what she says is true (and I believe it is) it sounds like she was close to passed out when things got going.

[pelicanpreacher]

The question that still begs though is after being apprised of his/her/their intention to pursue a threesome with you PM why you didn't immediately take stock of who and what you were dealing with to end the night right then and there, especially after confiding with your sister's boyfriend about it?

 

The fact that your guilt overwhelmed your sense of reasoning to allow your window of opportunity to have a tox-screen done to find out what you may have ingested that evening close has hurt your chances to find out the immediate truth but its my guess that if indeed you were drugged and both of the other parties were in on it then they've done it before and will likely do it again. Research the Andrew Luster story to see what I mean.

[prttymarie]

Well Pelicanpreacher, I dont' remember that conversation. I spoke to my sister the next day and was told I told her boyfriend that. I don't remember saying YES to going to this guys house, and I don't remember saying NO. I remember waking up to things already happening.. then something happen that I remember saying NO to, it hurt and then I realized what was going on, I was still messed up, but a little more coheriant, got up and left the room... I don't think that the girl from my work was in it, she was also just as messed up. I think the guy saw us having fun, drinking made his move on my friend and possibly slipped us something. Then everyone knows what happen next. I don't know that I will say raped, but definatley taken advantage of!!!! I am meeting with a therapist Monday.. I am continually praying and seeking the right time from God. I am so afraid and pray for strength (if anyone else out there prays I need prayer!!). I can't change what happened. I get sick every time I think about it and I pray for strength to keep me out of a dark hole I keep wanting to crawl in because of my shame.... Thank you for those that try and understand. I can only pray my husband will even want to try..