I am sick about this...

[Reggie]

From the way she describes her husband and with all the holes in the story, she needs to be able to do more than articulate, if her H has any candlepower.

[dobler33]

Those are good points, dobler re the validity of the test. She needs to find a really good, expierienced tester who can use control questions to set her baseline. The test are really well respected by law enforcement and, most folks taking them face similar stressors.

 

agreed, but i question the very notion of a "baseline" when PM herself has such mixed feelings - guilt, fear, disgust, etc - about the event. a woman in this situation is often encouraged (as PM has been in this thread) to assume guilt and responsibility for the event regardless of her consent. we tell women over and over, in a million conscious and unconscious ways, that they are "asking for it." so how can any tester, no matter how experienced, combat this internalized self-blame and its inevitable physiological consequences?

 

also, what's candlepower? sorry, haven't heard that one before.

[dobler33]

How about we try to help this woman, instead of debating her guilt or innocence. Ikjh and Reg, you act like you were in a court room and were appointed by somebody to try this case before the court of LS. While I have the greatest respect for your "learned", discourse, this woman came here to find support in a difficult time. She is afraid, confused,guilt-stricken, and ashamed. I think we could do better than to try to take all of her dignity from her, all of her hope, and leave her with nothing but your "learned", opinions.

 

 

right behind you, jack. monkeys and all.

[Reggie]

agreed, but i question the very notion of a "baseline" when PM herself has such mixed feelings - guilt, fear, disgust, etc - about the event. a woman in this situation is often encouraged (as PM has been in this thread) to assume guilt and responsibility for the event regardless of her consent. we tell women over and over, in a million conscious and unconscious ways, that they are "asking for it." so how can any tester, no matter how experienced, combat this internalized self-blame and its inevitable physiological consequences?

 

also, what's candlepower? sorry, haven't heard that one before.

 

I doubt her stessors are significantly different than those of anyone who has a lot riding on the outcome, dobler. And, the testers are trained to set a baseline which will account for hers. Shouldn't be a problem. Just get some ex-fed with a lot of expierience.

Candlepower= smarts. He'll have the same questions re the glairng inconsistencies others have had, if he has a brain. So, the test should help her.

[boldjack]

That's the way, Reg, no faith in people but complete faith in Technology.

[boldjack]

Inconsistencies? Oh, ****! She's clearly guilty, if she's inconsistent. We don't know what she's guilty of, but it must be something. Reg, try to wrap your "learned", mind around COMPASSION, for a change. It will make you feel better.

[Reggie]

Inconsistencies? Oh, ****! She's clearly guilty, if she's inconsistent. We don't know what she's guilty of, but it must be something. Reg, try to wrap your "learned", mind around COMPASSION, for a change. It will make you feel better.

I have plenty of compassion. This will aid her in dealing with her husband. All stories, even true ones, can be made to look inconsitent. So, the test should help. Wrap your brain around that concept

What is the issue with the test? I would think you would be on board, as it will support her story, right?

[dobler33]

I have plenty of compassion. This will aid her in dealing with her husband. All stories, even true ones, can be made to look inconsitent. So, the test should help. Wrap your brain around that concept

What is the issue with the test? I would think you would be on board, as it will support her story, right?

 

i would totally be on board if not for the problems w polygraphs in general. i am all for any way for PM to have a clear sense of what was done to her that was wrong, but in the psych community they are almost universally discredited because of the issues previously stated. but yes, i support the idea of PM having some concrete proof to take to her husband, particularly if it reduces the potentiality of violence in his reaction. i just don't trust polygraphs......

[Athena]

I think it's obvious that Reggie was telling Prttymarie to have a lie detector test as a way of scaring her into truth-telling.... but since it's obvious that she blamed herself, for her infidelity, from the first post and since others have helped point out the possibility of her having been taken advantage of, she needs to 'rethink' that night... but, Reggie probably believes she is just a plain ole liar right from the get go, so he's using scare tactics on her.

 

Whether Prttymarie is witholding any information (as some posters think) or is genuinely confused about that night (as she claims), the suggestion of her taking a lie detector test is ridiculous, since she blames herself. She doesn't even Know What the Truth About That Night is!!!!!!

I am sure Reggie would have loved to have put his wives under Lie Detector tests to find out the truths they were hiding from him, but they were just too smart for him.

Don't make assumptions about the intelligence of this poster.

[Reggie]

I never commented on her intelligence. And, I had no desire for ploygraphs for the ex's. This makes no sense, Athena.

Dobler, why not have her take it privately and show him the results if they are favorable.

I do have doubts about this story.

[lkjh]

How about we try to help this woman, instead of debating her guilt or innocence. Ikjh and Reg, you act like you were in a court room and were appointed by somebody to try this case before the court of LS. While I have the greatest respect for your "learned", discourse, this woman came here to find support in a difficult time. She is afraid, confused,guilt-stricken, and ashamed. I think we could do better than to try to take all of her dignity from her, all of her hope, and leave her with nothing but your "learned", opinions.

 

 

I want to help but what I see is the tone of these post changing. This started out as her saying she was drunk and made a mistake, to people telling her she was to impaired to make a decision, to now everyone assuming she was drugged.

 

At one point she even said she drank way more than she normally does and she even pointed out about taking shots.

 

I see more regret than any real evidence of rape, I could be wrong but that is what I see. If she tries to play the rape card and she wasn't it will blow up in her face.

 

Tami, we know that she was drunk and that is it. You can not say she is a victim because she was drunk.

 

Would you excuse a husband that cheated because he was drunk? Would you claim the H that cheated while drunk was raped?

 

I really don't want to debate if she was raped or not. What I want to do is reply to her original post, the one that said she was really drunk and did something out of character.

[lkjh]

I agree I don't think a lie detector test for her is necessary, but I will say if she presses for rape, the man will be asked by the police to take one.

[tami-chan]

Tami, we know that she was drunk and that is it. You can not say she is a victim because she was drunk.

 

In her first post, she said, she does not remember much and felt that she was taken advantage of...because she was so messed up-perhaps you should read it again.

 

That to me indicated that she was a victim...whether it is rape, I don't know. All I know is that, is that PM was so impaired and cannot make informed decision and the other person is "with it" enough to drive-someone took advantage of someone, which means the person being taking advantaged of is a victim. Unless you have another name for it?

 

Would you excuse a husband that cheated because he was drunk? Would you claim the H that cheated while drunk was raped?

If he was passed out and taken advantaged of by evil women...of course, but how many men who can er..."perform" when he is in and out of consciousness? What's to take advantage of?

[dobler33]

she also made at least one reference to the guy doing "something" to her that she asked him to stop doing, and he did not. i will repeat: she said no and he continued the sexual act. that's the only definition that matters from a mental health perspective. it should be the only definition that matters period but it doesn't look like it around here.

[Athena]

I never commented on her intelligence. And, I had no desire for ploygraphs for the ex's. This makes no sense, Athena.

(...)

I do have doubts about this story.

 

Fine, you do have doubts about her story, however I doubt your "helpful" suggestion of her taking a polygraph is intended to help her situation, since she already blames herself for the infidelity! Her feelings of guilt about that night, added to her fuzzy recall of events of that night, will NOT be helpful to her 'making a case of Truth' to her H, and you, being a lawyer 'n all, would know that. Since your posts on the polygraph suggestion have NOT been so subtle, it's clear you are being condescending to her... about the veracity of her story, about her intelligence (should she take your post to be 'good advice')

 

And sure -- you may not have commented directly on her intelligence (you didn't need to -- your attitude says it all -- which is why Boldjack twice confronts you about your 'learnedness', which might be read as 'arrogance' and looking down at OP), but additionally you did comment on "IF her H had any candlepower" he wouldn't believe her story...(meaning No one with Any intelligence Would...) plus... my take on your suggestion of her undergoing a polygraph test was to 'scare' her into coming clean (since you say you Do have your Doubts about her 'story')... yes ...reading between the lines, I do see your angle/take, and your so-called 'helpful' suggestion of her undergoing a polygraph as NOT helpful to HER.

 

As for you saying you had 'no desire for your exes taking polygraphs' and your conclusion of 'this makes no sense Athena', allow me to copy and paste two posts of yours I read recently, where you express your desire to gain more knowledge of your exes' truths -- it was these posts that led me to believe perhaps you might have loved to have your exes take a polygraph, but they were too smart for you to suggest it to them, and, it would be bad for OP to do this in her case.

 

"<<<20th May 2009, 5:19 PM #204

Reggie

Established Member

 

Join Date: Sep 2008

Location: Midweat

Posts: 1,928

I just wanted to add, DNUI, that it is highly likely you know only the tip of the iceberg re her infidelities. You will most likely never know the entire story, but you have more than enough.

I add this just in case you have second thoughts and think she can be fixed. This is a woman who has probably been doing this type of thing most of her adult life. You know of a few affairs, but I'd bet dollars to doughnuts there are more. These are not an abberation for her. These behaviors are well entrenched.

I found out additonal stuff about my XWW after the divorce and it was mind boggling. Amazing how one can live with someone all those years and not have a clue. I hate the fact that I am now more 'knowledgeable" as to how these folks work and what some people are capable of. But, it is neccessary out there in the jungle, I guess.

I know this is still painful, although you are doing well, all things considered. It gets better with time.

As dumb as I am, I still find myself wondering if, after 3 years out, my XWW will get help, apologize and turn her crazy life around. But, it is not my problem anymore, thank God.

 

 

20th May 2009, 11:04 PM #208

Reggie

Established Member

 

Join Date: Sep 2008

Location: Midweat

Posts: 1,928

Sometimes I wish I had the entire story. It is just so weird that all this went on for so long and I do not know exactly what happened. Not even sure if my kids are biologically mine. What a crazy world this is. >>>>"

 

Bottom line is, you need to work on your Subtle Skills... if you are going to insult/ offend posters... or just be 'open'... or is that too hard for a lawyer to do?!

[Reggie]

she also made at least one reference to the guy doing "something" to her that she asked him to stop doing, and he did not. i will repeat: she said no and he continued the sexual act. that's the only definition that matters from a mental health perspective. it should be the only definition that matters period but it doesn't look like it around here.

Did she say the "something" he did was a sexual act? I don't recall that.

[lkjh]

Tami, I agree that no one should take advantage of a passed out person, but she never said she was passed out. She said she was drunk and only remember parts. I really don't think that drunk is a excuse.

 

 

Also, how did this one guy carry out two girls that he drugged with out her sister, sisters or bf, or bouncers stopping it?

 

dobler, I agree that was wrong but to call rape is extreme. I guess I am having trouble believing someone that willing got drunk with these people, had talks about threesomes, told their sister's bf about these talks, and then ended up in this situation was truly raped. I think rape is a very serious thing and I really don't know if she was or was not. What I do know is that the events leading up to the incident were in sexual nature and seemed planned. I don't for a second think she would have done this sober but being drunk can change a lot of things. The talking about a threesome first seems really weird.

 

Second, she said no but when the guy tried she got up and left. He didn't throw her down and force her. They could have been in the act and he didn't hear her or he could have been just like a bunch of other guys and think that the middle aged drunk married woman at the bar is up for it.

 

I really don't know if she was raped but it seems like there are people trying to convince her that she was.

[Reggie]

Athena, I never needed a polygraph for my XWW re infidelity. One apologized and I had irrefutable evidence for the other.

I will never know the full story , but, never had any need for a poly.

As for my suggestion, despite my doubts, it is a way for her to prove the veracity of the story.

I beleive her husband will not buy it, if he is halfway smart. The suggestion of a poly could in no way frighten her into telling the truth. IAfter all, accoeding to many who take her stroy as fact. it is the truth, right? And, if it is not, why would she come clean because some stranger on a boaard suggested a poly? You are making no sense to me.

[Athena]

Athena, I never needed a polygraph for my XWW re infidelity. One apologized and I had irrefutable evidence for the other.

I will never know the full story , but, never had any need for a poly.

As for my suggestion, despite my doubts, it is a way for her to prove the veracity of the story.

I beleive her husband will not buy it, if he is halfway smart. The suggestion of a poly could in no way frighten her into telling the truth. IAfter all, accoeding to many who take her stroy as fact. it is the truth, right? And, if it is not, why would she come clean because some stranger on a boaard suggested a poly? You are making no sense to me.

 

Reggie stop with the subtle insult of 'you are making no sense to me'... it is not becoming of you to keep on with that lame and transparent one-liner.

 

Sure her posts are not clear-cut-and-dried, and I don't know if it's because she is hiding facts or due to her not remembering... I am only commenting directly on your suggestion of her taking a polygraph as NOT being in her best interests... but you know this already....

[dobler33]

Did she say the "something" he did was a sexual act? I don't recall that.

 

 

the statement was made in the context of describing what she remembered about the sexual event. i think it is reasonable to assume that the "something" was sexual. to satisfy your lawyer's mind i will concede that the "something" could in fact have been a quick game of pinochle or perhaps a recitation of "paradise lost", but contextually speaking, i think it's a credible assumption that she was referring to an unconsentual sex act. come on now, reggie my dear. i won't accuse you of insulting anyone's intelligence but i do think you're being rather willfully obtuse.

[tami-chan]

Tami, I agree that no one should take advantage of a passed out person, but she never said she was passed out. She said she was drunk and only remember parts. I really don't think that drunk is a excuse.

 

What do you think happened on those "lost parts", the time frame she cannot account for? Do you think she was with it?:rolleyes:

 

Also, how did this one guy carry out two girls that he drugged with out her sister, sisters or bf, or bouncers stopping it?

 

I don't know if she was drugged...I don't know if she was rape...she doesn't even know that herself. She does know that she can only remember bits and pieces, she does know that when she was beginning to come to she didnt want any part of it....

 

Look, her story is not extraordinary. This happens a lot. I do not know how a drunk person can work his way to anything. I do not drink and have never been around drunks.

 

dobler, I agree that was wrong but to call rape is extreme. I guess I am having trouble believing someone that willing got drunk with these people, had talks about threesomes, told their sister's bf about these talks, and then ended up in this situation was truly raped. I think rape is a very serious thing and I really don't know if she was or was not. What I do know is that the events leading up to the incident were in sexual nature and seemed planned. I don't for a second think she would have done this sober but being drunk can change a lot of things. The talking about a threesome first seems really weird.

 

You are missing the point entirely. Do you not understand? I does not matter if she talked about threesome..it does not matter is she took off all her clothes, it does not matter if she was dancing on the tables naked.....if she was IMPAIRED it is wrong to have sex with her! KEY WORD: CONSENSUAL. If one party is too impaired to make any kind of informed decision, it is wrong to go ahead with anything....do you understand?

[Reggie]

Here is a short list of the things that do not add up to me. Some, if not all,have already been mentioned by others:

1) the two women logistics issue in front of pm's family. Not likely some predator is going to drug two women, escort them from the bar if they are so impaired, in front of famli and the general public.

2)If he is a predator so practice he could plan and pull this off, he surely would not have brought them to his domicile where he can be easily found if they make a complaint.

3) The specific rcollection of protection.

4) The "guessing " at having consented merely due to the pressure of being at his house.

5) The lack of follow up with the friend.

6)The conversation about a threesome with a complete stranger.

7) The lack of physical evidence.

This story does not add up.

Athena, you really do not make sense to me. Sorry to offend you. The excerpts you cited make no mention of my contemplating a polygraph and I Never requested one. As I said, they are reliable and someone intent on not disclosing would never submit to one. My XWWs , since they had no desire to disclose the truth, would never consent. The one apology came 7 years after the divorce, as my first X was working her 12 step program.

I would like to know the full stroies, but asking them to take a polygraph would have met with refusals and, we were divorced, so it makes no difference.

In the instant case, a polygraph, rather than uncovering facts, would merely serve to bolster pm's claims and , perhaps, satisfy her husband that her story is true. Not the same purpose, at all. This is why your response makes no sense to me. This is a tool that she could use if she is telling the truth.

[tami-chan]

the statement was made in the context of describing what she remembered about the sexual event. i think it is reasonable to assume that the "something" was sexual. to satisfy your lawyer's mind i will concede that the "something" could in fact have been a quick game of pinochle or perhaps a recitation of "paradise lost", but contextually speaking, i think it's a credible assumption that she was referring to an unconsentual sex act. come on now, reggie my dear. i won't accuse you of insulting anyone's intelligence but i do think you're being rather willfully obtuse.

 

LOL...dobler...

 

Anyway, this is what Pm said about that "something"

 

The next thing I remember was being in a room.. things happening. then he starting doing somn and I said no, it hurt, and he kept doing it. I think by that time I was starting to realize what the hell was going on and what the hell I was doing and I got up and left them.

 

Maybe he was tickling her so hard that it hurt....:rolleyes:!

 

 

ok,,, so recall that.

[Athena]

Athena, you really do not make sense to me. Sorry to offend you.

(...)This is why your response makes no sense to me.

 

You are being a bit of a Wanker now, aren't you? Sorry to offend you, you know... but your overused one-liners that you borrowed from some second-hand lawyer at the court serves little purpose here... methinks your NPD and BPD wives rubbed themselves off a little on you... time to present a better version of yourself, isn't it?! hmm

[Reggie]

the statement was made in the context of describing what she remembered about the sexual event. i think it is reasonable to assume that the "something" was sexual. to satisfy your lawyer's mind i will concede that the "something" could in fact have been a quick game of pinochle or perhaps a recitation of "paradise lost", but contextually speaking, i think it's a credible assumption that she was referring to an unconsentual sex act. come on now, reggie my dear. i won't accuse you of insulting anyone's intelligence but i do think you're being rather willfully obtuse.

 

I took it to mean that as well, dobler. But, in dealing with something as serious rape, assuming is not responsible.