I am sick about this...

[confusedinkansas]

well there you go, you can't read. I said she needs to stop drinking and partying.

 

I never said her husband needs to babysit her. If someone has to babysit their spouse to keep them from running off and screwing around with someone else, whats the point of being married to them?

 

READ dammit.....READ

 

The only part of my reply that was direct at what you had said was the part about the job. Not the rest of it. The rest of it was commenting on what others had said.

[Trimmer]

Maybe in your world people never get f--ked up enough to do something completely out of character but it does happen whether you wanna believe it or not.

Yes, of course it does, but in my world, they own their behaviors and take personal responsibility for the consequences to those who have suffered damages from it.

 

..what some want on here is the cheater to be punished...it has nothing to do with doing the right thing...it is all about "you did something wrong and you need to suffer the consequences"...and I think that's pathetic.

I don't take any pleasure in anyone's suffering, but if we take the editorial use of that word "suffer" out of the equation, I do firmly believe that one should willingly face and accept the consequences of one's behavior and choices. Do you truly find that pathetic?

 

 

 

So have I...and I am pretty sure I've seen people do things and have done things myself that I had no desire to do sober. Things that have negatively affected my life in big and long-lasting ways. When your judgement is lost you are capable of all kinds of uncharacteristic behaviour.

I don't often agree with Dexter's manner, delivery, or extremism, but I do agree with his "...then don't drink at all" point to the OP. If one's judgement gets "lost" when one drinks - or put more directly, if one chooses to forfeit keeping a grip on one's judgement by choosing to start drinking - then how can you ever have even a single drink; why would that person with such a loose grip on her judgement ever allow herself to take even the first tiny step down that slippery slope? Where can you trust yourself to draw the line? If the first drink lowers your "judgement" even just enough to make the bad choice to have a second drink, etc...., then how can you ever justify drinking again?

 

The reason I allow myself to drink is that I make it a point to stay responsible, to plan ahead (for example, if I choose to drink, I will plan ahead not to drive) and to take FULL responsibility for the stupidity and consequences of my behaviors after I have chosen to put myself in that state. If I'm not willing to sign up to all that, I drink ginger ale or soda water with lime.

 

Well I am glad some people understood what I was trying to say and actually LISTENED TO WHAT i SAID. Dexter, you are a angry, mean person and may as well not bother posting on this, cause if I see a post from you, I will move right on to the next. To everyone else.. What I did was STUPID, It was my fau lt for drinking like and idiot and allowing myself to get past the point where I can only remember bits and pieces of a night that I wish would have NEVER happen. The disgust I have for myself, I cannot put in words, and when I have on here, people take it the wrong way and ASSUME I am trying to make excuses.

PM, you may not feel like you are consciously making excuses, but you talk in terms of this thing "happening to" you and the others taking advantage of you, etc. At some point, in your own mind, in your own heart, you will have to sort this out, and the questions asked by dobler about the possibility of this being sexual assault may help to frame that thought process for you.

 

I'm not trying to put you on the rack here, so you don't even need to answer me - you don't owe me anything. But at some point, you will need to answer for yourself the question of whether you were a willing - if drunk and stupid - participant in this event, or whether you were coerced and forced against your will or your ability to refuse.

 

Did you participate? Could you have said no? (I know there are very fine-grained differences between "I was drugged and unable to say no," and "I was threatened and at risk if I said no", and "I was just too stupid to say no...", etc.) Was it bad judgement on your part that you need to own and take responsibility for, or was it truly coercion? These are very gray areas, I realize, and it's easier just to say a blanket "I was so messed up and it just happened" but I think you need to explore these questions, honestly, and you owe that honesty first and foremost to yourself, before you will be able to live authentically within your family again... It can be tempting to jump to: "they made me do it, I'm not responsible" because, really, I understand that's a softer, more palatable way to see yourself than believing that you actually participated.

 

But that's what it comes down to, and that's the conundrum that your drinking has left you with: did you participate, or were you an unwilling victim?

 

I think you need to figure that out before making the choice of whether to tell your husband. And then once you have been honest with yourself, then for me, that choice of whether to tell him comes down to: has he (or will he) suffer damage from your actions? If he has suffered (or will suffer) damage, then I think, as an honorable human being, you need to stand up and admit responsibility for those damages, and work to help repair them, just as if you had run over the neighbor's garden in your car while drunk.

 

And this is where the big "tell/don't tell" debate centers. Those who say "don't tell" will argue that he suffers no damage if you just keep your mouth shut, and that you will cause unnecessary damage by telling him.

 

Those who counsel to "tell him" will assert that your actions have already caused internal damage to your relationship, the effects of which will continue affecting you and your relationship into the future, and that therefore you owe it to him to stand up and take repsonsibility now, and give the marriage some kind of a chance at getting the damage repaired before it continues to grow unchecked. (Not to mention the ever-present possibility of unanticipated exposure from the outside at a later date.)

 

I tend to be in the latter group, as I believe that damage has been done, that the cracks that have started in your own psyche and your relationship will continue to grow, and that the possibility of revelation at a later date (and the explosive, destructive power of that revelation) will always hang over your head, adding more stress and accelerating the damage to your relationship.

 

My opinion is that it's been cracked, and is continuing to break from the inside, and he doesn't know it yet.

 

Good luck in working it all out.

[prttymarie]

I don't know how else do describe to you all that night. I dont remember EVERYTHING. Things come in and out.. One minute I remember talking to my friend and just dancing on the dance floor and the next I remember being in a room with her and this guy...I will honestly say I felt pressure and should have said NO, but I guess because we ended up at his house, I said yes?! I do remember at one point he tried doing something and I said no and he did it anyway... that is when I think I starting sobering up a little.. I got up put my clothes on and went to the bathroom until they were done.. once in the bathroom I saw all these condoms so that is why (for all of you that were so quick to assume I only remembered what I wanted) I rememberd that condoms were involved. I plan on getting tested this Friday. So the fact that I don't remember leaving the bar, and that I came to when I was in a bed when things were happening and came in and out, then remember what he was doing and said no and it still happen These are details I didn't want to share because it is very hard for me. So I can't really say that I wasn't willing cause I don't remember what in the HELL I said. and once I felt like I was getting a little less drunk, things became more clear and I did get up and get myself dressed and left them to do whatever the hell they were as I went into a bathroom sick and disgusted with myself.. I will tell you that I drank like a complete IDIOT! with all the mixed drinks I had and shots I am pretty sure it was over 15shots!!!! NOT what I can handle and I don't know why I did it, it was my pure stupidity!!!! Does that make everyone happier? now you have more details to beat me up about!

[prttymarie]

Just to clarify somn.. the only reason I know there was TALK of a threesome was because apparently I went up to my sisters boyfriend (my sister worked at the bar I was at) and told him that they were trying to talk me into a threesome.. he said to me "you better not do that" and I guess I told him "I will not!!!" I have no recollection of that conversation....

[Reggie]

I agree with Trimmer. I think one way you can really examine your level of volitional involvement is to look at your capability to have carried out other functions, such as driving, walking, your coherency, and your physical ability to participate in the threesome.

To do something really way out of character, such as the threesome or , in Schweter's friend's case, fatally kick someone in the head, it strikes me that one would have to be obliteratedly intoxicated.I've been intoxicated when I was younger and I have seen my friends really pretty drunk.

I may have done some stupid things, like the dancing around with the lampshade on the head deal. But, I really question whether intoxication could make someone do something so many standard deviations away from his or her values.

[dobler33]

...I will honestly say I felt pressure and should have said NO, but I guess because we ended up at his house, I said yes?! I do remember at one point he tried doing something and I said no and he did it anyway... QUOTE]

 

 

honey, if you were sitting in my office i would refer you to rape counseling based on these two sentences alone. please give this some thought. you may have had too much to drink, but it is NEVER ok for someone to pressure you into doing something you feel uncomfortable about. never, ever, ever. no matter how out of control you are, no matter what crazy dirty thoughts go through your head, no matter how many shots you knock back and how much you oughtn't to have been doing so. it is NEVER ok for something to pressure you into doing something you feel uncomfortable. i'll repeat it as many times as you need to hear it. please disregard the moral police until you get some support with the parts of this you could not control. they are not helping by blaming you for something that sounds more and more like sexual assault to me (and a few others here - can i get some backout here for PM?)

[prttymarie]

Well I did NOT drive.. Apparantley my Xfriends guy friend drove MY car.....

[dobler33]

...I will honestly say I felt pressure and should have said NO, but I guess because we ended up at his house, I said yes?! I do remember at one point he tried doing something and I said no and he did it anyway... QUOTE]

 

can i get some backout here for PM?)

 

 

sorry, that'll be backUP, not backout.

[Reggie]

I agree, it is wrong to pressure someone into consenting to sex. But, I do not think we really know enough to draw any conclusions about the volitional nature of the sex.

One thing that jumps to mind is the question of how familiar pm was with these folks. Did they not display this propensity for this type of activity before? What did she know about them and their lifestyle?

[Dexter Morgan]

The only part of my reply that was direct at what you had said was the part about the job. Not the rest of it. The rest of it was commenting on what others had said.

 

and about the "job" ...I ALWAYS tell a cheater to quit their job IF they work at the same place as their affair partner.

 

I NEVER tell them to just up and quit. They keep the current job UNTIL they find a new one.

 

Again...requote what I said...I'll be waiting.

[prttymarie]

I have worked with this girl for a few months now.. never heard weird things about her. We co-manage a team together, so we thought we would go have a few drinks and some fun to just get to know one another outside of work... This GUY is no one I knew and she said she just met him that night...

[Reggie]

I do not get the feeling this was a sexual assault. As pm said "I should have said no. But, because we were at his house, I said yes." There is no indication that there was any threat or coercion, merely her perception of prssure. And, the fact that she mentions she had the option to say no(the "should have" implies this) would take this out of the realm of non-consensual.

[Dexter Morgan]

Just to clarify somn.. the only reason I know there was TALK of a threesome was because apparently I went up to my sisters boyfriend (my sister worked at the bar I was at) and told him that they were trying to talk me into a threesome.. he said to me "you better not do that" and I guess I told him "I will not!!!" I have no recollection of that conversation....

 

i'll ask again:

 

if you are not going to tell your husband, and keep quiet about this, are you prepared to:

 

a) stop drinking, since you blame it on drinking and say you didn't know what you were doing BECAUSe of drinking

 

AND

 

b) stop partying?

 

the dodging of these two questions is all too telltale......you don't want to give up the partying, even though you say you care about your husband.

[prttymarie]

Maybe you should re read my posts... I NEVER said I wan't GOING to tell him.. YOu sure assume a lot.. I said I am PRAYING for the right time, SO I am TELLING him.. I am NOT drinking anymore and NOT going anywhere without him. I pray he wants to work it out with me, if not it is my consequence.. HAPPY? can you now leave this thread? Thanks!

[dobler33]

I agree, it is wrong to pressure someone into consenting to sex. But, I do not think we really know enough to draw any conclusions about the volitional nature of the sex.

QUOTE]

 

i agree that more information would be useful. but i have to tell you that those two sentences i highlighted above are textbook for survivors of sex assault, to the point that as a clinician i would literally be in jeopardy of having my license reviewed if i heard something like that and did NOT refer for rape counseling or similar. that's more red flags than a day at NASCAR.

[prttymarie]

Thank you for your thoughts. I just have a hard time because I don't remember leaving the bar, OR allowing him to drive my car! The next thing I remember was being in a room.. things happening. then he starting doing somn and I said no, it hurt, and he kept doing it. I think by that time I was starting to realize what the hell was going on and what the hell I was doing and I got up and left them. But by that time it was to late.. I was already there and things had already happen

[Dexter Morgan]

Maybe you should re read my posts... I NEVER said I wan't GOING to tell him.. YOu sure assume a lot..

 

when you make a statement like "no good would come out of telling him", then that pretty much maps out your intentions...cuz afterall, if no good can come of it, this insinuates you convinced yourself you shouldn't.

 

Now if along the way you changed your mind about that.....then ok

 

 

 

I said I am PRAYING for the right time, SO I am TELLING him.. I am NOT drinking anymore and NOT going anywhere without him. I pray he wants to work it out with me, if not it is my consequence.. HAPPY?

 

yes, actually I am. If you can tell him about it and show him in actions that you are not going to drink any longer and partying is over...then you just might have a chance with him.

 

 

can you now leave this thread?

 

no

[eyeswide]

...I will honestly say I felt pressure and should have said NO, but I guess because we ended up at his house, I said yes?! I do remember at one point he tried doing something and I said no and he did it anyway... QUOTE]

 

they are not helping by blaming you for something that sounds more and more like sexual assault to me (and a few others here - can i get some backout here for PM?)

 

When I was in college, I was on a date with a guy I'd slept with a number of times before. This time he suggested he tie me up. For fun. I agreed. He then said he wanted to perform anal sex on me. I said I didn't want that. He apparently didn't care.

 

Talked to several friends about it who said "yeaaahhh...maybe that's rape." I, of course, just beat myself up for it for a decade and decided it was my fault. Do I, in retrospect, think that any of the beliefs I have developed about myself over the last 20 odd years relate to that experience at all? Do I often wonder if my sexual problems with my H have anything to do with that experience? Do I think that the fact I engaged in an A with someone who reminded me of the butt rapist is a coincidence? Do I wish I could afford therapy now so I could talk about that connection? Do I wish I had called a rape a rape at the time and gotten real help to deal with it instead of bottling it up inside?

 

Do you recognize rhetorical questions when you see them?

 

Listen PM, you got yourself there just like I did, and you feel responsible. And you also experienced coersion, just like I did, and you feel violated. I think most rape victims experience those things simultaneously. I encourage you not to try to "work it out on your own" which is what I thought I had to do when I saw my "friends" judging me afterward. I'm glad you have your pastor. I think your husband needs to be given a chance to help you through this too. But maybe in a safe space, together? With the pastor or a MC?

[Reggie]

It does seem odd, however, that you informed someone at the bar of their mentioning a threesome, yet you continued to associate and drink with them.

I know dobler comes at this from a very different perspective than I do as a former criminal defense attorney. I would feel pretty confidant that if this guy or his girlfriend were charged with sexual assualt, with these facts, they would walk.

[dobler33]

when you make a statement like "no good would come out of telling him", then that pretty much maps out your intentions...cuz afterall, if no good can come of it, this insinuates you convinced yourself you shouldn't.

 

Now if along the way you changed your mind about that.....then ok

 

yes, actually I am. If you can tell him about it and show him in actions that you are not going to drink any longer and partying is over...then you just might have a chance with him.

 

no

 

 

dex, i think you should respect her request. you keep claiming to want to help, but you are clearly making her uncomfortable, which is not helping. she has asked you not to respond anymore. that should be enough for you.

[stuckinoz]

Maybe you should re read my posts... I NEVER said I wan't GOING to tell him.. YOu sure assume a lot.. I said I am PRAYING for the right time, SO I am TELLING him.. I am NOT drinking anymore and NOT going anywhere without him. I pray he wants to work it out with me, if not it is my consequence.. HAPPY? can you now leave this thread? Thanks!

 

He bullies & badgers everyone - You're the first I've seen that's said that! Good for you.

[Dexter Morgan]

dex, i think you should respect her request. you keep claiming to want to help, but you are clearly making her uncomfortable, which is not helping. she has asked you not to respond anymore. that should be enough for you.

 

its a public forum

[prttymarie]

your right, it does seem odd... everything about that night does.. I wish my sisters boyfriend would have grabbed me right there and taken me home with them.. I NEVER let anyone drive my car! and the fact that I let some guy, totally makes me keep telling myself what the F? I think he knew we couldnt drive and offered to take us.. and took us to his place.. I can only assume though...

[Reggie]

I should add, though, that if she clearly said no , before he acted, and he went ahead, anyway, this was a sexual assault.

I was under the impression that she went along with some acts, but said no to one particular act. In that case, that particular act might be looked at as an assault or a battery.

If you feel strongly you were sexually assulted, you could talk to the county attorney who prosecutes in your area. Additionally, if you feel you were assaulted and battered, you would have a civil cause of action. Under the facts as you describe them, you'd have a very tough case, though.

[HsMomma]

its a public forum

 

Dex, yes, it is a public forum; however, please see where I quoted from LS itself:

 

"LoveShack.org is an open community dedicated to providing advice and support for people with interpersonal relationship problems. As such, the community welcomes all views that are offered with a sincere wish to help. People have different styles, and different ideas about a given situation. Sarcasm, constructive criticism, and even respectfully voiced disapproval can all be appropriate -- provided they are employed with the intent of being helpful by providing insight or a different perspective that will help the poster with his or her dilemma.

 

However I've noticed that frequently in some discussions members respond to a post in order to voice their own emotions about a similar issue that they are involved in, or to validate their own feelings and choices, or even in some cases to simply berate, mock, or derogate the poster.

This particular forum is focused on discussing the problems and experiences of those who are in relationships with cheating partners, or who are themselves cheating on their partners. It is certainly appropriate for others who are not in such a situation to offer their insight to posters here; however, it is only appropriate if it's done in a respectful and helpful manner."

 

Can you honestly say you've been respectful and/or helpful, Dex? Do you sincerely want to help or do you just wish to cram your own belief system down PM's throat? I'm asking this honestly & with no sarcasm whatsoever. PM is going through an incredibly rough time with this & I think you are deliberately being mean and un-helpful in this situation. Just my opinion, though.