Why is it so hard to believe that some MM/MW really DO stay for the children?

[complicatedlife]

Just for the record, this is not about my situation at all.

 

This is about a close friend who I have written about in a past thread. He had an OW for over 10 years. Yes, over 10 years. He loved her before he got married, and he still loves her. But he will not leave his marriage because he says it would be too devastating for his children. Eventually, the OW had a silent time limit, and when it was reached, she broke things off with my friend. He's devastated, and he is also afraid of what his future holds because he doesn't have "her" to look forward to as far as the future anymore. I have encouraged him to leave so many times because he is so unhappy in his marriage that his children must see the unhappiness - but he won't. When I ask him why he won't leave, do you know what he says? "At least the children can be happy even if I'm not." Just a sad situation - and one that I can't understand. So I asked a good friend of mine - female, married with children - her opinion. She told me that children change everything - that if it were her, she would do the same: stay for the kids (but she also said that if she stayed for that reason she wouldn't cheat), and she completely understands why a parent would do that.

 

So the point of posting is to ask this:

While it's fair to say that some MM and MW do cheat because they are "caking" (or for whatever reason), isn't it also fair to say that some people stay because they truly believe in their hearts that it's the better thing to do for the children? I don't agree with this sentiment because I believe you have to take care of YOU first, but then again my girlfriend says it's because I'm not a mother, so I don't have the capacity to understand.......

[carhill]

When someone sacrifices themselves at the altar of their children, there will always be regrets of some type. Children are mirrors of their parent's psyche. The parents are their role models. What are the children in this situation seeing?

 

I've seen the long-term damage of such choices and there's no way I'd make such a choice at this time of my life. At a younger age, I probably would have, and died inside.

[Chrome Barracuda]

I think it's pretty sad and pathetic to engage in an affair with someone when your married and have kids, when that affair doesnt work out, your stuck not because of the kids, it's because that is what you have chosen for your future.

 

I wish people stop saying unhappy marriage, it's not the damn marriage that is unhappy, that person doing all the creeping and lying, that person is just an F-ing idiot and they are unhappy themselves!

 

Life is what you make it. If I was in an unhappy marriage I'd leave but give the woman time to change, if she doesnt then I'd understand but I wouldnt cheat, that's like insult to injury, not only disrespectful to your partner but to yourself.

 

How could you face yourself in the mirror everyday and have a clean conscious about it??

 

Your friend needs to find his own sense of self worth and be either commited to his family or just leave, life is too short to mope around to waiting for a woman that doesnt give a damn about you. Your affair was a joke it wasnt love, it was all a fantasy...

 

chew on that.

[jj33]

Complicated - I think your question misses the point.

 

1. From the MPs perspective no its not hard to believe that this is their heartfelt belief - it if werent for my children I would leave (and in my view at least 80% there would ALWAYS be another reason)

 

That's why marriage is such a bit committment - because there it is a life it is not just a relationship with the spouse. The "whys" of why someone stays are irrelevant. The fact is that they stay.

 

The marriage may not be optimal from the MPs perspective but they stay for whatever reason, kids, cultural expectations, finances, etc. All of this is part of what makes the the institution of marriage so strong.

 

2. From the OPs perspective, an OP will very often say - he would leave, but for the children. Whether its true or not, WHO CARES? WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE TO THE OPs life?

 

NONE. Other than as a matter of ego. Yes it may be true in many cases and yes it soothes the hurt that the person isnt leaving but who cares?

 

too many OPs use it as a reason to stay in a situation in which they are unhappy (the dynamic of an A)

 

and too many people BS and OP use it as a yardstick of who the MP loves more. God only knows who if anyone the MP loves more - the BS who some MM are treating as glorified wellpaid domestic help while they spend little free time with them, or the OP, a relationship with its own limitations?

 

The bottom line is that argument feeds competition.

 

If you are the OP are you going to wait until the children are older because maybe maybe they will in 5 7 or 10 years the MP will leave? (a sad sad piece of "hiding" behavior in my view)

 

If you are the MP it suits you down to the ground to say sorry darling children come first love you in my life but I cant change a thing and if you are willing to play on my terms would be wonderful if not will miss you madly but that is life.

 

So I ask again. WHO CARES. Either the OP will sacrifice themselves to the altar of the MPs children or the OP will eventually walk away.

[jj33]

CHrome I usually disagree with your posts but in this case I do kind of agree.

 

If one person is so unhappy they should leave. Or if not they should work on the marriage. I think staying and cheating is the height of selfishness.

 

Cheating "for the children" is just another tired old line that lets the MP feel that their betrayal of their spouse is somehow justified.

[complicatedlife]

When someone sacrifices themselves at the altar of their children, there will always be regrets of some type. Children are mirrors of their parent's psyche. The parents are their role models. What are the children in this situation seeing?

 

I've seen the long-term damage of such choices and there's no way I'd make such a choice at this time of my life. At a younger age, I probably would have, and died inside.

 

I have pointed the bolded out to my friend; it's like he doesn't hear me.

[complicatedlife]

Your friend needs to find his own sense of self worth and be either commited to his family or just leave, life is too short to mope around to waiting for a woman that doesnt give a damn about you. Your affair was a joke it wasnt love, it was all a fantasy...

 

chew on that .

Before I comment on your post, are you saying this about 1. my friend, 2. ME, complicatedlife or are 3. you saying "your affair " as a general statement? I hope it's the latter.

[jj33]

Complicated sorry I missed teh point of your post to some degree.

 

I think your friend has to face the fact that this outcome is inevitable.

 

Did he REALLY expect the OW to sacrifice herself for teh sake of his chidren while they have no real life together?

 

Fine for him to make this decision for himself (tho I dont truly believe it for the reasons Carhill said) but to expect the OW to buy into it too?

 

Very very narcissistic.

[complicatedlife]

Complicated - I think your question misses the point.

 

1. From the MPs perspective no its not hard to believe that this is their heartfelt belief - it if werent for my children I would leave (and in my view at least 80% there would ALWAYS be another reason)

 

That's why marriage is such a bit committment - because there it is a life it is not just a relationship with the spouse. The "whys" of why someone stays are irrelevant. The fact is that they stay.

 

The marriage may not be optimal from the MPs perspective but they stay for whatever reason, kids, cultural expectations, finances, etc. All of this is part of what makes the the institution of marriage so strong.

 

2. From the OPs perspective, an OP will very often say - he would leave, but for the children. Whether its true or not, WHO CARES? WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE TO THE OPs life?

 

NONE. Other than as a matter of ego. Yes it may be true in many cases and yes it soothes the hurt that the person isnt leaving but who cares?

 

too many OPs use it as a reason to stay in a situation in which they are unhappy (the dynamic of an A)

 

and too many people BS and OP use it as a yardstick of who the MP loves more. God only knows who if anyone the MP loves more - the BS who some MM are treating as glorified wellpaid domestic help while they spend little free time with them, or the OP, a relationship with its own limitations?

 

The bottom line is that argument feeds competition.

 

If you are the OP are you going to wait until the children are older because maybe maybe they will in 5 7 or 10 years the MP will leave? (a sad sad piece of "hiding" behavior in my view)

 

If you are the MP it suits you down to the ground to say sorry darling children come first love you in my life but I cant change a thing and if you are willing to play on my terms would be wonderful if not will miss you madly but that is life.

 

So I ask again. WHO CARES. Either the OP will sacrifice themselves to the altar of the MPs children or the OP will eventually walk away.

 

Maybe I didn't articulate myself correctly; my point is not the OP - I take it that means the OW or OM? My point and focus in this thread is on the MP - the married person; that some of them really do believe that they are sacrificing themselves for their children - not the ones who use it as an excuse - and not the ones who think their cheating is "justified". For example, my very good guy friend who I am speaking of here knows very well and also acknowledges that his cheating was not just wrong, but unfair to all involved.

[Can'tGiveUp]

Interestingly enough, when you read posts you'll find that the MM get bashed whether they leave or stay.

 

If you say that they are staying for the kids, then you get told that is just an excuse and he loves his W and the M is intact and you were nothing but a piece on the side. If he really loved you, then he would get out of the M.

 

If you say he is leaving, then you get asked what kind of man would do this to his kids? He is just selfish and thinking of himself and his needs. Why do you want a man like that?

 

The truth is that, as parents, we want what is best for our kids. The prevailing belief is that a two-parent family is critical to raising kids to be stable, emotionally healthy adults. As a person who wants out of a M, you weigh the effects of D on the kids with the effects of staying. Dependent upon the result, you make the decision. You review the decision periodically.

 

CL, your friend is hearing your advice, but for now the effects of staying, in his analysis, are better for his kids. He isn't seeing yet that the model for a "good marriage" that he and his wife are presenting to the kids, is perhaps not ideal. Many people don't believe that kids see more than we give them credit for. That they compare the R of their parents with the R's of their friends parents.

 

In my opinion, I'd rather my kids see 2 happy parents, leading separate lives, than 2 people co-existing in a home without any evident affection or love for each other. However, I weighed those effects of staying vs. leaving for many years - and stayed probably longer than I should have. And for some reason, I feel the need to point out that there was no A involved with the dissolution of my M. It was a simple "should I stay or should I go"...

[complicatedlife]

CHrome I usually disagree with your posts but in this case I do kind of agree.

 

If one person is so unhappy they should leave. Or if not they should work on the marriage. I think staying and cheating is the height of selfishness.

 

Cheating "for the children" is just another tired old line that lets the MP feel that their betrayal of their spouse is somehow justified.

 

That's what my friend is doing and has been doing for the past year. But he does not love his wife. And he is unhappy because he wishes he did. He's on anti-depressants and seeing an IC so that he can function, and again, he says and believes that he is doing all of this for his children, to not have to destroy "their" world.

 

Interestingly, he says he would not cheat again because he can't handle it - not even with the ex-OW who he has known since he was a teenager (way before I knew him and before he even knew his wife) and has loved since then.

[carhill]

Fine for him to make this decision for himself (tho I dont truly believe it for the reasons Carhill said) but to expect the OW to buy into it too?

 

In this instance, with a MM, I would tend to agree. I've seen more of the 'altar' with MW's, both personally and with friends on both sides of that fence (MW/OM).

 

That's not to say that both MM and MW don't use the psychological tools at their disposal to perpetuate situations which are satisfying to them. Children and the feelings they evoke are powerful psychological tools.

[MichelleS1983]

He loved her before he got married, and he still loves her.

Then why did he get married? He didn't have the 'kid card' to play then, did he?

 

Eventually, the OW had a silent time limit, and when it was reached, she broke things off with my friend.

Smartest move she ever made. Shame she wasted 10 years on him - 10 years she'll never get back.

 

He's devastated, and he is also afraid of what his future holds because he doesn't have "her" to look forward to as far as the future anymore.

Sorry, my give-a-damn's broken. He thought nothing of wasting this OWs life for YEARS AND YEARS, asking her to put her life on hold to wait for his sorry ass because HE chose to marry and HE chose to have children. That was HIS decision, not the OW's.

 

When I ask him why he won't leave, do you know what he says? "At least the children can be happy even if I'm not."

My, he's quite the martyr, isn't he? Does this poor, poor victim wear his hair shirt to work every day? And what a guy - falling on the sword for those children he CHOSE to have. This is a creep whose made a complete MOCKERY of his marriage for years and years, and for all those years he risked the family security of these very same children he CLAIMS to love. He knows damned well that every single day he was in an affair, he risked the chance of getting caught and blowing his family unit completely to bits. Yet the selfish bastard chose to take that risk every single day knowing he was taking the chance of shattering his children's world. Yeah, he's Father of the Year, alright. And his affair would STILL be going on if his OW had chosen to allow heself to continue being used. I have no sympathy at ALL for his kind.

 

He's a complete jerk-off who has NO respect for his wife and family whatsoever, but he wants to constantly WHINE about how unhappy he is and how "everyone else can be happy" except for him. Personally, I'd be happy to give him a well-deserved kick in the stones.

[jj33]

Sure some people do believe it but???

 

You will get loads of people saying he is doing the right thing and loads saying what Carhill said.

 

I agree that noone should stay just for the kids and I do have a VERY hard time believing anyone does.

 

I think on balance your friend and other parents say is it so awful that I cant manage to stay while my child finishes school? No.

 

But unless special circumstances are involved (special needs children perhaps or exceptionally strained finances) I still think its an excuse.

 

If the marriage were that bad, he would leave. It not that bad, its just "not ideal" and if he had it to do over again he wouldnt do it.

 

The marriage has failed to meet expectations. I wouild suspect that most do. Living with another person for the rest of your life is never going to be easy if you have expectations that are high in any way.

 

The question is how bad is it? If its not so bad that you CAN stay until your kids grow up, its not that bad.

 

Hency my feeling that your friend doesnt really want to leave the marriage. Whihc is fine. He doesnt want to admit he has failed or chosen the wrong partner. He feels a sense of responisibility to the family unit.

 

However you word it, it means that the marriage is more important than his personal happiness. That is why marriage is a BIG deal- for BETTER OR WORSE.

 

You arent supposed to leave on a whim. So ??

 

Im not even sure what hte question is. he feels he should tough it out and its not so bad that he cant. OK.

 

Other peeople have different tempraments and would never be able to stay in that situation.

[complicatedlife]

Interestingly enough, when you read posts you'll find that the MM get bashed whether they leave or stay.

 

If you say that they are staying for the kids, then you get told that is just an excuse and he loves his W and the M is intact and you were nothing but a piece on the side. If he really loved you, then he would get out of the M.

 

If you say he is leaving, then you get asked what kind of man would do this to his kids? He is just selfish and thinking of himself and his needs. Why do you want a man like that?

 

OMG - this is so true - my boyfriend (former MM) used to say this all the time; that no matter what route he chooses, he will STILL appear to be the bad guy - that he was in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation.

 

The truth is that' date=' as parents, we want what is best for our kids. The prevailing belief is that a two-parent family is critical to raising kids to be stable, emotionally healthy adults. [/b']As a person who wants out of a M, you weigh the effects of D on the kids with the effects of staying. Dependent upon the result, you make the decision. You review the decision periodically.

That is the stance that my girlfriend takes; it's why she says she understands why my guy friend stays. But she also recognizes that in his particular situation, that he is so unhappy that it's just NOT healthy for his children.

 

CL' date=' your friend is hearing your advice[/b'], but for now the effects of staying, in his analysis, are better for his kids. He isn't seeing yet that the model for a "good marriage" that he and his wife are presenting to the kids, is perhaps not ideal. Many people don't believe that kids see more than we give them credit for. That they compare the R of their parents with the R's of their friends parents.

I really hope so - the situation is so sad.

 

In my opinion' date=' I'd rather my kids see 2 happy parents, leading separate lives, than 2 people co-existing in a home without any evident affection or love for each other. However, I weighed those effects of staying vs. leaving for many years - and stayed probably longer than I should have. And for some reason, I feel the need to point out that there was no A involved with the dissolution of my M. It was a simple "should I stay or should I go"...[/b']

This is awesome. Sadly, it is very hard for some people to do, but you had the courage and strength.

[complicatedlife]

In this instance, with a MM, I would tend to agree. I've seen more of the 'altar' with MW's, both personally and with friends on both sides of that fence (MW/OM).

 

That's not to say that both MM and MW don't use the psychological tools at their disposal to perpetuate situations which are satisfying to them. Children and the feelings they evoke are powerful psychological tools.

I agree with this. But he has many folks telling him that this is not the tool to use in this situation.

[complicatedlife]

Then why did he get married? He didn't have the 'kid card' to play then, did he?

He got married because his wife, who was his girlfriend at the time, got pregnant, and to him, that is what you do in that situation.

 

 

Smartest move she ever made. Shame she wasted 10 years on him - 10 years she'll never get back.

But they were HER years to waste, noone made her - it was HER CHOICE to stay.

 

 

As for the rest of what you say, you are, of course, entitled to your opinion, and you say a lot of things that have merit. But the person I see and talk with is not happy, and he's setting himself up for a nervous breakdown; pardon me if I feel sorry for him even though he made some bad choices.

[carhill]

I agree with this. But he has many folks telling him that this is not the tool to use in this situation.

Absolutely. IMO, no reasonable person would ever see children as 'tools'. That said, within the dynamic of relationships, and this would apply specifically to people who compartmentalize, as people prone to affairs tend to do, one can 'use' the children to get the reaction they desire (that's one box) and, without issue, switch to the loving father/mother/husband/wife box and bring honest and heartfelt love to the table.

 

A corollary would be how a spouse would 'use' the children to inflict pain upon the other spouse (generally during/after divorce) but still be and feel quite positive about being a great father or mother. They disconnect the tool from the person (the child) by putting them in separate boxes.

 

This is all part of the psycho-social conditioning we receive as our brains are developing and why positive adult role models are critical to a child's healthy development. TBH, every 'damaged' adult I've experienced had a damaged or neglectful childhood. The 'tools' they've learned as a result of that were/are quite foreign to me. That's why I think 'staying for the children', meaning sacrificing one's psyche and emotional health to keep a family 'together' is not only damaging to the person but also to the children. If, in this instance, the MM is merely creating a spectre of that, but not really feeling anything, then he's just a reprehensible human being

[complicatedlife]

I agree that noone should stay just for the kids and I do have a VERY hard time believing anyone does.

Well...he's on anti-depressants, in therapy - only IC as his wife doesn't believe in MC, and he's not cheating. I talk with him daily and see him every week or so for lunch; I believe he IS staying for those children.

 

If the marriage were that bad, he would leave. It not that bad, its just "not ideal" and if he had it to do over again he wouldnt do it.

This is subjective; who are we to say that anyone's situation is not that bad? We are not living it.

 

The question is how bad is it? If its not so bad that you CAN stay until your kids grow up, its not that bad.

If you call the way he's living daily "not that bad", then what IS that bad? Again, this is subjective. He is on medication to cope - I have a feeling it's bad for him.

 

He feels a sense of responisibility to the family unit.

This is true and he says so.

 

However you word it, it means that the marriage is more important than his personal happiness. That is why marriage is a BIG deal- for BETTER OR WORSE.

That is not healthy. If an individual is not happy, they can't make anyone else happy, nor will they be happy in a marriage. How is that healthy or right for either party? Are you saying that that is what marriage is about - staying unhappy because it's for better or worse?

 

You arent supposed to leave on a whim. So ??

I think we all know this. But this is certainly not a "whim".

 

Im not even sure what hte question is.

The question is the title of the thread, but I will ask you directly: When would YOU, JJ33, believe that someone really IS staying for the kids? What would have to occur in order for that to appear to be the truth to you?

 

Other peeople have different tempraments and would never be able to stay in that situation.

Oh, I agree. Or you can take anti-psychotics and anti-depressants to GIVE YOU the temperament to stay when you don't have it in you to do so.

[complicatedlife]

Absolutely. IMO, no reasonable person would ever see children as 'tools'. That said, within the dynamic of relationships, and this would apply specifically to people who compartmentalize, as people prone to affairs tend to do, one can 'use' the children to get the reaction they desire (that's one box) and, without issue, switch to the loving father/mother/husband/wife box and bring honest and heartfelt love to the table.

 

A corollary would be how a spouse would 'use' the children to inflict pain upon the other spouse (generally during/after divorce) but still be and feel quite positive about being a great father or mother. They disconnect the tool from the person (the child) by putting them in separate boxes.

 

This is all part of the psycho-social conditioning we receive as our brains are developing and why positive adult role models are critical to a child's healthy development. TBH, every 'damaged' adult I've experienced had a damaged or neglectful childhood. The 'tools' they've learned as a result of that were/are quite foreign to me. That's why I think 'staying for the children', meaning sacrificing one's psyche and emotional health to keep a family 'together' is not only damaging to the person but also to the children. If, in this instance, the MM is merely creating a spectre of that, but not really feeling anything, then he's just a reprehensible human being

 

Wow, Carhill. I've got to copy and paste this and send it to him!

[Heather1]

My kids are teens & it's a really fragile time for them. They're also great kids who have never caused me any trouble. For my own physical pleasure to be w/ OM is WAY too selfish right now. Sometimes you just have to do the "right" thing, and not the thing that appears to make you "happy" for the moment.

[norajane]

My kids are teens & it's a really fragile time for them. They're also great kids who have never caused me any trouble. For my own physical pleasure to be w/ OM is WAY too selfish right now. Sometimes you just have to do the "right" thing, and not the thing that appears to make you "happy" for the moment.

 

When are they not fragile? When they're toddlers? When they start school? When they hit puberty? When they graduate high school? College?

 

You can make a case for "not a good time" because of the children at any point in their lives. Yet, many, many people with children of all ages get divorced every year.

 

Why is it that all of those people can make that choice, but cheating spouses have such a hard time? Is it the guilt that goes along with having an affair that makes it seem so much worse for a cheating spouse to leave a marriage with children? I wonder if those same people would have such a hard time leaving if an affair hadn't been involved in the decision.

[jj33]

Complicated it doesnt matter what I think. When I said the marriage isnt that bad I meant - to him. Loads of people are on antidepressants and in IC. That doesnt mean that much these days. The fact is he wants to tough it out.

 

Its about what your friend thinks. These are his values. Whether he is kidding himself or not its about him. I was with a friend yesterday who is married to someone who bullies her.

 

Her response? She doesnt believe in MC - its just self indulgent, it would be nice if her H were nicer to her, but she married him and she is standing by him - she is the regional head of a national bank. She is not a wilting wallflower.

 

I was STUNNED to say the least.

 

Did I want to say to her hang on, you need MC or you dont need to stay if even HIS family is telling you both that there are issues and hes not treating you right?

 

Of course I did. But her mind is made up. She views it differently than I do.

 

So my feeling is whats the difference. Your friend feels he is diong what is right for him given his values system.

 

Why are you so exorcised by the whole thing. Its his marriage. His children.

 

The people we care about often lead their lives in ways that we dont agree with or do things that we would do differently.

 

I think that very few people who say they are staying for the kids really are. I think most of them are staying because they are afraid to leave for other reasons.

 

He doesnt believe in MC - like my friend. To me this suggests that he doesnt want to leave the marriage for whatever reason. And he is afraid to delve into the deeper issues with his wife.

[jj33]

Excatly Nora. They are going down teh old route of I am not a bad guy, I may have feelings for someone other than my spouse, but I am not such a bad guy that I would leave my child.

 

Its all about appearances. Unless the W is irresponsible or the child might be in some sort of danger etc etc then why the big drama. Everyone else manages to make a decision.

 

I still stick by what I said before if YOUR FRIEND thought it marriage was so very unlivable he would leave. He obviously doesnt so he is still there.

[complicatedlife]

Why are you so exorcised by the whole thing. Its his marriage. His children.

He's my friend and I care about his mental health; it's not looking very good right now. And I wouldn't say that I am "exorcised". Passionate about it, yes. I'm a passionate person.

 

The people we care about often lead their lives in ways that we dont agree with or do things that we would do differently.

True. But it doesn't mean we shouldn't try to help a family member, friend, or anyone that we care about if we see something might become self-destructive. We do it here on LS - offer advice/suggestions/opinions to people we don't even know....

 

He doesnt believe in MC - like my friend. To me this suggests that he doesnt want to leave the marriage for whatever reason. And he is afraid to delve into the deeper issues with his wife.

I don't think you read my post correctly - HIS WIFE doesn't believe in MC - he has been asking her to go for a few years; she refuses, citing that it's airing family "dirty laundry".