IfWishesWereHorses Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 If you see what I wrote to NS7, I avoided using NPD -- you are right when you say--<<<that his actions have been somewhat narcissistic, but not everyone who has narcissistic tendancies, is actually NPD.>>> I also think he needs to be counseled by an IC who is familiar with growing up with a narcissistic parent (his father)... as well as NS's actions throughout his M scream N... the outside apparent doing what's right, feeling empty inside, finding himself despicable, etc I point this out to him so that he can help himself, not to slap on a horrible sounding label and taint him... he needs help, he says he wants to understand himself, and I am pretty sure that N plays a big part in his case. I completely understand that. Its just something I've been considering throughout this thread, and since it was brought up, thought I'ld add my thoughts on it. There is also a book out there about with a great few chapters about the affects of N parents on children. Its a simple read unlike Vaknin's tome. If I could figure out who I lent it too , I could get the name, but it is very interesting. Link to post Share on other sites
Athena Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 some of it does seem to fit, yes Well, sometimes even the parts that Don't seem to fit, actually do fit, but it is difficult for one to see it in themselves... part of the narcissistic disorder (as in most personality disorders) is that people cannot see it in themselves, therefore there is no motivation for change. Link to post Share on other sites
Author NOTSURE7 Posted July 17, 2009 Author Share Posted July 17, 2009 ..sometimes i get sad,angry,confused,feel alone and then there are times i just want to die. Not been there from your side, but in any situation, that you are depressed and unable to see the light at the end of the tunnel, it helps to have faith that it is there. This won't last forever. Take heart in the your desire to have "good" come out of this. I guess a decent "physical" analogy would be cancer treatment. The treatment darn near kills the patient and makes them feel worse than the cancer ever did. They have faith though, and know that its their only chance at survival. You're gonna have to dig deep and find that faith. i understand that analogy, its just very hard because when someone commits the act of having the A and feels remorse,there feelings get lost a bit for obvious reasons.i am going through so much,i cant smile,i cant laugh,i cant hardly focus on work.i know i dont deserve a pity party but i am just merely pointing out that even a wh can hurt badly and i am. Link to post Share on other sites
Athena Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 i know i dont deserve a pity party but i am just merely pointing out that even a wh can hurt badly and i am. All parties hurt badly after an affair (WS, BS, AP) -- they bring brief joy and fun while in progress, but upon disclosure or exposure, they bring hurt and pain to everyone. Yes, I understand that you are hurting badly. Link to post Share on other sites
MistyK Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 I completely understand that. Its just something I've been considering throughout this thread, and since it was brought up, thought I'ld add my thoughts on it. There is also a book out there about with a great few chapters about the affects of N parents on children. Its a simple read unlike Vaknin's tome. If I could figure out who I lent it too , I could get the name, but it is very interesting. I think the book you are thinking of is called "Children of the Self-Absorbed" by Nina Brown Link to post Share on other sites
Author NOTSURE7 Posted July 17, 2009 Author Share Posted July 17, 2009 All parties hurt badly after an affair (WS, BS, AP) -- they bring brief joy and fun while in progress, but upon disclosure or exposure, they bring hurt and pain to everyone. Yes, I understand that you are hurting badly. you are right, at the end of the day not a second of the A was worth this pain. my w is hurting beyond belief,my children are suffering,my work is suffering,i am suffering. i just keep second guessing myself on whether i should have revealed the A and again i know it all goes to the silver lining at the end but its so hard to see it. Link to post Share on other sites
Athena Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 you are right, at the end of the day not a second of the A was worth this pain. my w is hurting beyond belief,my children are suffering,my work is suffering,i am suffering. i just keep second guessing myself on whether i should have revealed the A and again i know it all goes to the silver lining at the end but its so hard to see it. It's interesting to me to see that you are second guessing on having revealed the A to your W, as opposed to second guessing yourself on having had yet another affair... My H was like this too, he would regret having confirmed an A to me after I had my suspicions, or 'proof'... he would constantly regret my Knowing. Not regret his earlier actions (of cheating) but always on the TELLING... and even with this most recent affair of his -- the one in March -- I asked him how he could have gone ahead with yet another affair after all we've been through because of his previous A's and his reply was that he DID think about the consequences of going forward with the A, but he "just thought he'd not TELL me this time! That all the other times he TOLD me (admitted it) but now his thinking was (the solution) was simply THIS time NOT to tell me! Problem solved, screwing went ahead! Sounds a bit like you, you know... you keep on coming back to the Devastation experienced ("unnecessarily") by you as a direct consequence of your having Told your W, instead of as a direct consequence of following your selfish desires. How do you expect to change your behavior if you cannot see the single source of this devastation, instead of superficially focusing on the Exposure of the affair? You are looking at the wrong thing, Friend. Link to post Share on other sites
Author NOTSURE7 Posted July 17, 2009 Author Share Posted July 17, 2009 It's interesting to me to see that you are second guessing on having revealed the A to your W, as opposed to second guessing yourself on having had yet another affair... My H was like this too, he would regret having confirmed an A to me after I had my suspicions, or 'proof'... he would constantly regret my Knowing. Not regret his earlier actions (of cheating) but always on the TELLING... and even with this most recent affair of his -- the one in March -- I asked him how he could have gone ahead with yet another affair after all we've been through because of his previous A's and his reply was that he DID think about the consequences of going forward with the A, but he "just thought he'd not TELL me this time! That all the other times he TOLD me (admitted it) but now his thinking was (the solution) was simply THIS time NOT to tell me! Problem solved, screwing went ahead! Sounds a bit like you, you know... you keep on coming back to the Devastation experienced ("unnecessarily") by you as a direct consequence of your having Told your W, instead of as a direct consequence of following your selfish desires. How do you expect to change your behavior if you cannot see the single source of this devastation, instead of superficially focusing on the Exposure of the affair? You are looking at the wrong thing, Friend. what i mean by regretting it is that i keep thinking maybe i should have sought help on my own first,maybe tried to end things with the ow on my own,maybe the fog would have clelared,maybe some ic would have helped me,thats the second guessing i am reffering too.. at the end of the day, i revelaed the A and i realize that my actions have caused irrevirsable harm,i definetely take responsibility and all i was saying was maybe there was a way to heal myself before devastating my W like this. Link to post Share on other sites
Athena Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 what i mean by regretting it is that i keep thinking maybe i should have sought help on my own first,maybe tried to end things with the ow on my own,maybe the fog would have clelared,maybe some ic would have helped me,thats the second guessing i am reffering too.. at the end of the day, i revelaed the A and i realize that my actions have caused irrevirsable harm,i definetely take responsibility and all i was saying was maybe there was a way to heal myself before devastating my W like this. Maybe there was a way to heal yourself, but probably not. It's unlikely you would have been motivated to heal yourself (change yourself) without feeling and seeing the Consequences for yourself. Why would you want to change anything that just was undiscovered fun? The motivation was in your seeing the destructiveness of your actions on your W, children, and M. Link to post Share on other sites
Athena Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 ... besides, your actions affect your Marriage to the core... and no matter how much you fix yourself, your wife needed to be included to address the damage to the marriage, that she was unaware of. There was no other way. You simply had to tell. Link to post Share on other sites
Author NOTSURE7 Posted July 17, 2009 Author Share Posted July 17, 2009 ... besides, your actions affect your Marriage to the core... and no matter how much you fix yourself, your wife needed to be included to address the damage to the marriage, that she was unaware of. There was no other way. You simply had to tell. i know and thats why i told her..i am now finally facing the demons.i guess because its just so hard i start to second guess and think maybe there was another way. i just cant stand the pain i caused and its killing me. Link to post Share on other sites
Athena Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 i just cant stand the pain i caused and its killing me. Eventually you are going to have to Forgive yourself. Link to post Share on other sites
Author NOTSURE7 Posted July 17, 2009 Author Share Posted July 17, 2009 Eventually you are going to have to Forgive yourself. i know..maybe in time Link to post Share on other sites
Athena Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 I read your initial posts where you seemed focused on Doing the Right Thing. So now you F$*^ked up good and proper, without leeway to escape or still look good... So? People screw up. They make piss-poor decisions... just like you did. You can vow to from here on now, align your thoughts/decisions/actions... you can learn to value your Integrity -- that what you SAY is what you DO (not what other's think you do, or what you can secretly Get Away With). Start putting yourself into alignment. Yes, you messed up thus far. But your past actions, choices, and decisions did not sit well with you -- your conscience, as much as you tried to ignore or override it for so many years caught up with you. Perhaps it caught up with you because you actually fell in love with OW and you began to feel your true emotions. This feeling of your emotions with OW, unlike the ACT you put on in your life with your W and in your M which was mostly a farce, opened up the floodgates in you.... emotions made it impossible to Ignore what you were doing, any longer. Link to post Share on other sites
IfWishesWereHorses Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 Sounds a bit like you, you know... you keep on coming back to the Devastation experienced ("unnecessarily") by you as a direct consequence of your having Told your W, instead of as a direct consequence of following your selfish desires. How do you expect to change your behavior if you cannot see the single source of this devastation, instead of superficially focusing on the Exposure of the affair? You are looking at the wrong thing, Friend. I agree with this. Its the "I'm so sorry... (you found out)" line. The affairs caused the pain, not your honesty. Plus, when you decided to tell... you were leaving... right? Your wife had to know in order for YOU to live in reality. Most of your unhappiness was with you, you said you were only real in the affair, but you admit that it was based on fantasy. It seems you've bought into your own lies about reality vs. fantasy for so long that you don't know what is real. On a scale of 1 to 10, your unhappiness (with your marriage)that led to your affairs compared to your unhappiness now? Link to post Share on other sites
Author NOTSURE7 Posted July 17, 2009 Author Share Posted July 17, 2009 Sounds a bit like you, you know... you keep on coming back to the Devastation experienced ("unnecessarily") by you as a direct consequence of your having Told your W, instead of as a direct consequence of following your selfish desires. How do you expect to change your behavior if you cannot see the single source of this devastation, instead of superficially focusing on the Exposure of the affair? You are looking at the wrong thing, Friend. I agree with this. Its the "I'm so sorry... (you found out)" line. The affairs caused the pain, not your honesty. Plus, when you decided to tell... you were leaving... right? Your wife had to know in order for YOU to live in reality. Most of your unhappiness was with you, you said you were only real in the affair, but you admit that it was based on fantasy. It seems you've bought into your own lies about reality vs. fantasy for so long that you don't know what is real. On a scale of 1 to 10, your unhappiness (with your marriage)that led to your affairs compared to your unhappiness now? i would take the unhappiness in my marriage over this unhappiness anyday.because when i look back at it i wasnt so unhappy. i was just self centered and took my w for granted. Link to post Share on other sites
Athena Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 You know, you do remind me of my H... My H KNOWS he did wrong by cheating umpteen times on me during our 23 year marriage, however, he says he is not such a bad guy because he provides for his family... you know, he sends the money home... besides, I am sure he Deserves a quick screw here and there on the side, doesn't he? And what the W doesn't know, can't hurt, right? And besides, for the most part, he conducted his A's in secrecy so that not even his work colleagues knew about them... even his so called friends didn't know... besides, he can see that most other MM working abroad, away from their W's and families are also cheating. So, really, how bad can he be, when all around him others are doing it to? blah blah blah It's time for a Change NS7 -- a real one... not a superficial cosmetic improvement... you are not getting any younger. Soon, you will look back on your life's successes and the Legacy you will leave to your children when you go, one day. What do you want to leave behind? How do you wish to be remembered? As a man who lived honestly, and with Integrity, after he messed up, or as One who never changed... As for my H, it's just too much work to do the real change... the superficial appearance is just as good for him. And that's why his wife is divorcing him soon. Link to post Share on other sites
Athena Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 i would take the unhappiness in my marriage over this unhappiness anyday. But 'this unhappiness' is to be short-lived, as intense as it is, it will end one day... but the previous unhappiness in your marriage had you locked in like that forever.... Link to post Share on other sites
Author NOTSURE7 Posted July 17, 2009 Author Share Posted July 17, 2009 You know, you do remind me of my H... My H KNOWS he did wrong by cheating umpteen times on me during our 23 year marriage, however, he says he is not such a bad guy because he provides for his family... you know, he sends the money home... besides, I am sure he Deserves a quick screw here and there on the side, doesn't he? And what the W doesn't know, can't hurt, right? And besides, for the most part, he conducted his A's in secrecy so that not even his work colleagues knew about them... even his so called friends didn't know... besides, he can see that most other MM working abroad, away from their W's and families are also cheating. So, really, how bad can he be, when all around him others are doing it to? blah blah blah It's time for a Change NS7 -- a real one... not a superficial cosmetic improvement... you are not getting any younger. Soon, you will look back on your life's successes and the Legacy you will leave to your children when you go, one day. What do you want to leave behind? How do you wish to be remembered? As a man who lived honestly, and with Integrity, after he messed up, or as One who never changed... As for my H, it's just too much work to do the real change... the superficial appearance is just as good for him. And that's why his wife is divorcing him soon. i agree athena and thats why i am commited to real change. Link to post Share on other sites
Athena Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 i agree athena and thats why i am commited to real change. Okay, but just remember that Real Change comes from having gone through real hurt, since you hadn't learned that 'lesson' of fidelity naturally, i.e. you didn't have it in you to avoid affairs to begin with, so your change will necessarily include having to go through a different channel, not one of clever avoidance, but one of smack-on terrible hurt and painful consequence-facing. Link to post Share on other sites
Author NOTSURE7 Posted July 17, 2009 Author Share Posted July 17, 2009 But 'this unhappiness' is to be short-lived, as intense as it is, it will end one day... but the previous unhappiness in your marriage had you locked in like that forever.... you are right,in fact we just had a decision to be made about me taking my kids to a party for there cousin tonight, and eventhough my w is feeling pain and she wasnt going to go anyway because my son is not feeling well and the fact she cant sit in a room without crying right now, i made a decision and said im taking the kids to the party, my point is in the past i would have just let her make the decision and i would have ended up resenting her instead of making the decision like i did.. you may not be understanding what i am saying but it felt good,i never did that in the past,i said im taking them and she said ok if thats what you want to do. then i will come home and comfort her and talk to her because i am sure we have a long night ahead.. Link to post Share on other sites
Author NOTSURE7 Posted July 17, 2009 Author Share Posted July 17, 2009 Okay, but just remember that Real Change comes from having gone through real hurt, since you hadn't learned that 'lesson' of fidelity naturally, i.e. you didn't have it in you to avoid affairs to begin with, so your change will necessarily include having to go through a different channel, not one of clever avoidance, but one of smack-on terrible hurt and painful consequence-facing. and thats exactly what i am doing right now..terrible hurt and very painful consequences i am facing..i am feeling the pain like i never have before, i am seeing the cause and effect of my actions and i know i never want to do or feel this again.now i have to work hard to make sure it never ever happens. my son started crying this afternoon and asked my w why she is always crying,she was able to avoid the issue but its really all devastating and i am realizing that my actions have such a long armed effect on so many, i am so sad inside and i am so hurting but i am nothing compared to my loving w. Link to post Share on other sites
OFGnomore Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 It's interesting to me to see that you are second guessing on having revealed the A to your W, as opposed to second guessing yourself on having had yet another affair... Sounds a bit like you, you know... you keep on coming back to the Devastation experienced ("unnecessarily") by you as a direct consequence of your having Told your W, instead of as a direct consequence of following your selfish desires. How do you expect to change your behavior if you cannot see the single source of this devastation, instead of superficially focusing on the Exposure of the affair? You are looking at the wrong thing, Friend. B-I-N-G-O. I confessed and never once regretted the confession. The cheating yes, the confession, no. The cheating caused my H's pain and took his freedom, the confession gave him his freedom back. NS7 reminds me alot of my xMM. XMM and his W took it once step further in terms of shirking responsiblity, they blamed my H for getting the word out to the community. And yes I think my xMM has NPD and his wife is the codependent N. NS7 you have to believe that you're making the right choices, including confession. Get to a therapist sooner rather than later. Most will accomodate people in a crisis situation. Link to post Share on other sites
Athena Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 you are right,in fact we just had a decision to be made about me taking my kids to a party for there cousin tonight, and eventhough my w is feeling pain and she wasnt going to go anyway because my son is not feeling well and the fact she cant sit in a room without crying right now, i made a decision and said im taking the kids to the party, my point is in the past i would have just let her make the decision and i would have ended up resenting her instead of making the decision like i did.. you may not be understanding what i am saying but it felt good,i never did that in the past,i said im taking them and she said ok if thats what you want to do. then i will come home and comfort her and talk to her because i am sure we have a long night ahead.. I do understand you NS. I saw from your earlier posts that you were indecisive (remember I called you on that in my first post to you, and I had only read a few posts of yours... up to page 3...) so I did see that your tendency was to be passive and let your W make all the decisions... somehow that was contributing to your pain, however... making you feel empty inside and living a life not of your own making. You would then turn to a secret life away from your W, where you made ALL the decisions... so I am Very glad to hear that you have begun making decisions in your life with your wife. That signifies change, yes, baby steps... Link to post Share on other sites
IfWishesWereHorses Posted July 17, 2009 Share Posted July 17, 2009 then i will come home and comfort her and talk to her because i am sure we have a long night ahead.. Why not give yourselves permission to take a much needed break tonight. Tell your wife that you know you that you have a long road ahead, and the there is much more to talk about and discuss, but ask her for both of your sakes if you two could spend some time together, tonight with out all of it and resume talks tomorrow. Maybe you could get a babysitter for a few hours and go do something simple that is something you don't usually do. rent a movie,play a board game, or something. She might appreciate being given permission NOT to talk about it tonight, while knowing that that doesn't mean the discussions are over. Sounds like you could both use a break and something light hearted. Link to post Share on other sites
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