All in My Head-Need it out

[Athena]

can i ask, when does the fear really subside, i assume when you say fear you mean right now she is reacting because she dosent want to lose me and is scared, so why does that stage eventually end?, what happens inside to make it end?, wont she always in her mind worry about that possibility no matter what i say

 

No, it will pass with TIME

[Athena]

i know that trust will never return, i think she is capable of getting close but i know i have woken her up and betrayed her immense trust she put in me and that will never return in full.

 

No, Trust WILL return, IF you back up your promises with actions that are true! Her trust is based on YOUR actions... so if you say you 'know that trust will never return' are you intending on behaving in an untrustworthy way?! You must understand that there is a direct cause and effect between what you do, and your wife trusting you... you cannot just expect her to instantly have 'faith' in you cuz you want her to! You gotta Earn it.

So, if she doesn't have trust in you, check to see what you are not doing that has not allowed trust to come back...

[White Flower]

Well, I applaud your honesty and the fact that you are seeking a solution to your problem. Not too many serial cheaters are willing to do that.

 

Yes, I called you a serial cheater. Since you are in honesty mode, you need to accept this about yourself. You cheated with other women and you cheated with the gambling. In many ways, you have taken any sense of security your entire family has yet they just don't know it yet.

 

You have choices. You can be honest and up front. Confess it all and let your wife decide what she wants for herself. You might be surprised by her response. Of course she'll be hurt, but giving her honesty is YOUR last hope of any dignity. If she finds out on her own, you are dirt!

 

If you really love the OW, don't let her go. Fight for her, and let your wife find someone who will really love her, not pretend to love her. Don't you get tired of making the magic?

 

Don't be a coward, take the knocks. It will hurt, but at least you'll have your dignity in the end. That is worth so much my friend.

[Athena]

we seem to be in this stage a bit now, it gets interrupted by brief crying attacks but she seems to be doing ok, i guess thats were the false hope sets in.

 

The false hope?! C'mon NS, don't be so negative!!!! I see your posts where you write that all these 'nice moments' are not real? that real trust will never return, and now you are talking about false hope!! NO -- stop it. Stop being so morosely negative. Stop being unrealistic. There is no Right/Wrong line here, there is no Perfect/Flawed forever line here, there is a Mixture of everything and its a progressive movement towards a Good Marriage... you seem hung up on having Forever Screwed up your Happy Marriage, but you fail to see it is NOT about that!

 

Your pattern of thinking & behavior has been exactly THAT all along, you know... the thinking you had allowed you to compartmentalize your behavior of feeling unhappy in the M, but putting on a 'happy' face and doing whatever you thought your wife wanted you to do... it's that exact same dangerous kind of thinking that you employed before that is showing it's ugly head here again... stop thinking All or Nothing... you can work towards what you want.... It's not an Instant thing. It's not a all Fail or all Pass thing... its a process of improvement.

[taylor]

Her fear will subside once she sees she is 'allowed' to express her anger and outrage at your unfair behavior, and you 'accept' her expressions.

 

Once she sees you are Still Together.

 

Once she feels safe that she can be truly herself without fear of that having not been enough to keep you true to her... I guess that's where the IC and the MC will help... when she sees that it's not all about her not being enough for you... that's when the fear will go away...

 

I don't think the anger sets in when the BS feels she has "permission" to get angry.

 

I don't think the anger sets in when the BS feels she is "safe" to be herself.

 

I think the anger starts to set in when the BS regains their self-esteem...recognizes their own self worth...and decides they are worth more than the sh*t that the WS is forcing them to swallow.

 

Athena, you have been swallowing your WS sh*t for years.

 

IMHO, you lack self-esteem. Otherwise, you wouldn't have put up with this treatment for so long.

[White Flower]

Lordy Lordy! I did not see that there are 72 pages here and quite a few changes. Sorry for not reading the entire thread before posting!

[Snowflower]

If you truly love your wife, maybe you should be the one afraid of losing her after what you have done...not the other way around.

 

NS7, IMO these are the absolute truest words directed at you on this entire (1050+ post) thread.

 

Do you agree with this statement, NS7?

 

Right now, your wife is very afraid of losing you, losing her marriage, losing the life that she thought she had. Eventually, she will begin thinking more clearly and reassess if she wants to keep what she thought she had-her marriage, her life with you.

 

Her anger will be part of your wife's reassessment of your marriage.

[Athena]

I don't think the anger sets in when the BS feels she has "permission" to get angry.

 

I don't think the anger sets in when the BS feels she is "safe" to be herself.

 

I think the anger starts to set in when the BS regains their self-esteem...recognizes their own self worth...and decides they are worth more than the sh*t that the WS is forcing them to swallow.

 

Athena, you have been swallowing your WS sh*t for years.

 

IMHO, you lack self-esteem. Otherwise, you wouldn't have put up with this treatment for so long.

 

Hi Taylor, it's a little bit different with me... I was high in confidence, happiness, love, trust, and self-esteem.

I knew that H was low in self-esteem and confidence, so I made allowances for him... it wasn't so much as me 'putting up with this treatment for so long' from him BECAUSE I WAS low in self-esteem, but because I knew that HE was low in self-esteem, and I constantly forgave him for it.

 

Until I figured out that Perhaps his 'low self-esteem' excuse was a manipulative act to get what he wants, and to get away with his unacceptable behavior!

 

Truthfully, it is only now, this past year that I feel low in confidence (never before!). It's my own fault for accepting to put up with his $hit -- it wore me down, it wore away at my self-esteem...

 

Taylor, it may surprise you, but it is actually the other way around... it was my putting up with his behavior for far too long that led to a drop in the way I viewed myself.

[taylor]

Hi Taylor, it's a little bit different with me... I was high in confidence, happiness, love, trust, and self-esteem.

I knew that H was low in self-esteem and confidence, so I made allowances for him... it wasn't so much as me 'putting up with this treatment for so long' from him BECAUSE I WAS low in self-esteem, but because I knew that HE was low in self-esteem, and I constantly forgave him for it.

 

Until I figured out that Perhaps his 'low self-esteem' excuse was a manipulative act to get what he wants, and to get away with his unacceptable behavior!

 

Truthfully, it is only now, this past year that I feel low in confidence (never before!). It's my own fault for accepting to put up with his $hit -- it wore me down, it wore away at my self-esteem...

 

Taylor, it may surprise you, but it is actually the other way around... it was my putting up with his behavior for far too long that led to a drop in the way I viewed myself.

 

I hear you, Athena. You bought into his excuses over and over again. And he has many excuses. (I've read the e-mails).

 

But wouldn't you agree your low self-esteem right now IS making it difficult for you to do what you know is in your best interests.

 

If your self-esteem was high, don't you think at this point you would have the strength and where-with-all to kick his a$$ to the curb and not look back?

 

Self-esteem is a power tool we use to do what's best for us.

 

Without it, we are at the mercy of whatever someone else wants to do TO us because we lack the strength to stand up for ourselves.

[Athena]

IMHO, you lack self-esteem. Otherwise, you wouldn't have put up with this treatment for so long.

 

By the way, Taylor, I come from another culture and have only been in America for just over a decade.

I am now more of an American woman, yes. Especially since I have started and completed a university degree in this country, including a couple of Women's Studies classes.

 

But the viewpoint I have, of loyally standing by family members, no matter what -- comes from over twenty years of learning my family of origin (and culture's) values... the collective as opposed to the individual pursuit. The standing by valued more than the walking away (viewed as weak, as failure, as ridiculous).

 

It is probably difficult for you to understand this, if you haven't had more than one culture with its values, instilled in your lifetime... I have had three.

 

I am fiercely loyal. Fiercely strong. Take no $hit -- oh, there you go... EXCEPT from my H!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Because I felt for him. He was 'wounded' from his previous M and his previous losses due to his adultery.

I was STRONG enough to put up with everything -- with his neglect, with his wanderings, with doing a lot on my own.

My mother and her mother raised families on their own after being widowed in their thirties... I come from a family where we believe we are very capable and strong. And have Pride.

 

My H comes from a family where they are weak.

 

I guess its the regression towards the mean -- he got stronger due to association with me, I got weaker due to association with him.

[Athena]

I hear you, Athena. You bought into his excuses over and over again. And he has many excuses. (I've read the e-mails).

 

But wouldn't you agree your low self-esteem right now IS making it difficult for you to do what you know is in your best interests.

 

If your self-esteem was high, don't you think at this point you would have the strength and where-with-all to kick his a$$ to the curb and not look back?

 

Self-esteem is a power tool we use to do what's best for us.

 

Without it, we are at the mercy of whatever someone else wants to do TO us because we lack the strength to stand up for ourselves.

 

I am conflicted.

 

I am feeling low right now, yes. My nest is empty (well, the kids are home from college now , but I am in Transition stage... am in my mid-life... 44 years old, fit, healthy, strong (physically! maybe not emotionally, cuz why is it right now I feel like crying?) and I WANT to do something good with myself.

I thought I was my H's strength... but why would he be so far away from me, and cheat on me with women he picks up at the bar?

Why would he promise me the earth, swear his undying love, profess his admiration for me, sing praises for my beauty etc etc... if I truly was so great

 

I know the American way is to be an Independent woman with a career and be financially independent. that is the strong way here.

[taylor]

Hi Taylor, it's a little bit different with me... I was high in confidence, happiness, love, trust, and self-esteem.

I knew that H was low in self-esteem and confidence, so I made allowances for him... it wasn't so much as me 'putting up with this treatment for so long' from him BECAUSE I WAS low in self-esteem, but because I knew that HE was low in self-esteem, and I constantly forgave him for it.

 

Until I figured out that Perhaps his 'low self-esteem' excuse was a manipulative act to get what he wants, and to get away with his unacceptable behavior!

 

Truthfully, it is only now, this past year that I feel low in confidence (never before!). It's my own fault for accepting to put up with his $hit -- it wore me down, it wore away at my self-esteem...

 

Taylor, it may surprise you, but it is actually the other way around... it was my putting up with his behavior for far too long that led to a drop in the way I viewed myself.

 

This post made me think of something else.

 

They say victims of domestic violence (emotional and physical abuse) have very low self-esteem that prevents them from mustering the self-confidence to walk away from the situation.

 

Instead, the wallow in it for years, and with each passing year, their self-esteem erodes just a little bit more.

 

And after a long time, they feel helpless..powerless..even undeserving of a better life.

 

But it makes me wonder how much self-esteem these women had in the first place..and how much of it went by the wayside as a result of being in a dysfunctional relationship.

[PhoenixRise]

I am conflicted.

 

I am feeling low right now, yes. My nest is empty (well, the kids are home from college now , but I am in Transition stage... am in my mid-life... 44 years old, fit, healthy, strong (physically! maybe not emotionally, cuz why is it right now I feel like crying?) and I WANT to do something good with myself.

I thought I was my H's strength... but why would he be so far away from me, and cheat on me with women he picks up at the bar?

Why would he promise me the earth, swear his undying love, profess his admiration for me, sing praises for my beauty etc etc... if I truly was so great

 

I know the American way is to be an Independent woman with a career and be financially independent. that is the strong way here.

 

 

((((Athena))))

 

You are wise enough to know that your husband's actions are not a reflection of you as a woman. His cheating does not mean that you are less worthy of admiration or that you are less beautiful or less great.

 

It just means that something is terribly wrong with your husband.

 

That is ALL it means.

[taylor]

By the way, Taylor, I come from another culture and have only been in America for just over a decade.

I am now more of an American woman, yes. Especially since I have started and completed a university degree in this country, including a couple of Women's Studies classes.

 

But the viewpoint I have, of loyally standing by family members, no matter what -- comes from over twenty years of learning my family of origin (and culture's) values... the collective as opposed to the individual pursuit. The standing by valued more than the walking away (viewed as weak, as failure, as ridiculous).

 

It is probably difficult for you to understand this, if you haven't had more than one culture with its values, instilled in your lifetime... I have had three.

 

You are right, Athena. It is very difficult for me to understand, having grown up with midwest American values. I respect other cultures, but don't necessarily understand the value system. I believe all cultures have a set of ideals that "work," but not all human behavior lives up to those ideals.

 

For example, you believe in "fierce loyalty" and "standing by family members." Very noble ideals in ANY culture. But your husband obviously does not believe in these ideals as you do. In fact, he makes a mockery of these ideals in spite of your adherence to them.

 

Your allegiance to these values would have served you well had you met and married a man that believed the same. But you did not. So, instead, these values are "hurting" you as you attempt to deal with the situation your husband has created.

 

I was raised to be a strong, independent..yet loving, giving woman. These qualities can be seen in both a good and bad light. Being strong and independent is not good if in a relationship with an equally strong, independent partner. And being giving is not good if in a relationship with a partner who is manipulative and self-serving.

 

While there is much good to be said about being loyal and standing by family..let me ask you this: Where has it gotten you in terms of your relationship with your husband?

 

These very admirable qualities that you are fiercely holding on to are what keeping you in a relationship that is dragging you down, causing you heartache and misery, and sucking the very spirit out of you.

 

I am fiercely loyal. Fiercely strong. Take no $hit -- oh, there you go... EXCEPT from my H!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Because I felt for him. He was 'wounded' from his previous M and his previous losses due to his adultery.

I was STRONG enough to put up with everything -- with his neglect, with his wanderings, with doing a lot on my own.

 

But in the end, what do you have to show for all this fierce loyalty? Is it enough to say proudly, "I stood by a cheating lying husband and took all the sh*t he dumped on me even though it totally drained me of all my self-worth."

 

In the end, what do you really have?

 

 

My mother and her mother raised families on their own after being widowed in their thirties... I come from a family where we believe we are very capable and strong. And have Pride.

 

Pride is good if it does good for you. But pride can also be detrimental. It can lead to many downfalls.

 

My grandfather was an alcoholic who beat my grandmother on a regular basis and was verbally abusive to her daily. He was a mean drunk. They had 10 children.

 

Back in those days, women didn't discuss their marital problems with anyone. They had too much pride. And they believed they had to "live" with their decisions..make the best of a bad situation. They didn't want to shame the family name.

 

So my grandmother withstood the beatings and the emotional abuse until the day my grandfather died..nearly 50 years.

 

What advise would you have given her, Athena? When you think of the kind of life she must have led, how does it make you feel?

 

She was a strong woman. Tough as nails. But I bet her heart was hardened and her spirit died a slow death.

[taylor]

I WANT to do something good with myself.

I thought I was my H's strength...

 

Athena, you have the ability to do something good with yourself. You are healthy, smart, strong, capable, and educated!

 

So, DO something good with yourself. The sky is the limit for you. Please do not waste this "good" on your husband.

 

It isn't your job to fix your broken husband. And it isn't your job to be his pillar of strength. If he is going to change, he has to do that himself. You can't do that for him. He has to figure out what is wrong with himself and fix it. And he has to find his own inner strength to make those changes. But, first and foremost, he has to WANT to change. He appears not to be of this mindset.

 

Husband fixing is a bad "project" to base your existence on. So many other worthwhile projects to focus on as a woman with your talents.

 

why would he be so far away from me, and cheat on me with women he picks up at the bar?

Why would he promise me the earth, swear his undying love, profess his admiration for me, sing praises for my beauty etc etc... if I truly was so great

 

 

Your self-esteem comes from within. Looking for love and validation from people who CAN'T love anyone but themselves is futile...and frustrating.

 

Please stop considering your husband as a source to find validation. You can't rely on him. He isn't capable of doing it. Once you find other sources of validation..thru work, other people, your own inner voice...his opinion won't matter so much.

 

Think of it this way, Athena:

 

Are you only beautiful if your husband says you are?

Are you smart only if your husband says you are?

Are you desireable only if your husband finds you that way?

Do you only have admirable qualities if your husband sees them in you?

Are you worth loving only if your husband loves you?

 

 

I know the American way is to be an Independent woman with a career and be financially independent. that is the strong way here.

 

There are many American women who don't have careers but choose to stay home, care for their children full-time, and rely on their husbands to provide for the family. They have loving husbands who respect them and admire them. Not all men are like your husband, Athena.

 

I agree with PhoenixRise...your husband has the problem, not you. And he would "have a problem" regardless of what culture he was living in and regardless of whether the woman he was with put up with his crap or not.

[Athena]

Taylor, and PhoenixRise thank you... I know I needed to be argued into seeing that point of view you show me, so thank you.

 

NotSure7, please see from the above posts, that your wife's very stability and strength can be wiped away if you continue to lie, cheat, and con her. I know you have chosen to tell her about your actions. I know you intend on being different from here on out. But Habits are very very difficult to break! Especially with the still evident Faulty Thinking you hold (that's where a counselor should be most helpful)... but PLEASE do not cheat and lie on your wife again, I say this as a many-times BS who has been hurt past the tipping point.

 

Taylor you are very logical, and I like that way you argue thank you again. Many thanks!

(btw my H is not from my country of birth, nor of my parent's nationality... so there are differences there too...)

[taylor]

Taylor you are very logical, and I like that way you argue thank you again. Many thanks!

 

Athena, thank you for the kind words.

 

It is easy to stand back and look at another person's situation without the emotion that blocks logical, rational, sensible thinking and common sense.

 

Wouldn't it be great if we could all solve our problems without all those darn emotions getting in the way.

 

Just over a year ago I was in the worst emotional turmoil I could have ever imagined. I couldn't seem to escape it. It consumed me. I couldn't think straight..couldn't process what others were telling me..the pain, the confusion, and the depression blurred reality to the point where I felt paralyzed to DO anything but wallow in the misery. I never felt so weak in my entire life.

 

It's easy to dish out advice sitting on the other side of faceless computer.

 

But I also know how hard it is to climb out of a dark hole of despair..how hard it is to fight to find yourself again when you are "lost"..and how difficult it is to have faith in yourself..when you are feeling so small and weak.

 

Take care, Athena.

[confusedinkansas]

NS - How's it going? Any new updates?

[NOTSURE7]

NS - How's it going? Any new updates?

 

it has been going ok,yesterday was a rough morning and as i was leaving for work the w had a complete breakdown,was a bit angry and asking me alot of questions, so i stayed home from work and answered every question she had and i was brutally honest,i also told her alot of what i think went wrong in our m and things i need to figure out and work on within myself and she seems to be recognizing that although there are no excuses for what i did and i agree,that there are things that need to be fixed in our m and within ourselves going forward, by the end of the conversation we both agreed it was a great talk and i stayed home and worked and helped out with kids and we had a nice rest of the day,then as usual our night was loving and sex filled..lol

 

in the early stages post dday i think things are going ok, i know it can and will change at any moment but its really been a time so far of self searching, alot of talking,being open and honest, we both agree its like falling in love all over again and we have both pledged to make some real changes,mostly on my end but she agrees there are things she needs to change too.

 

we have officially told our middle child he needs to sleep in his own bed as we have had someone in the middle of us for almost 5 years now,this was done by my w as she is realizing alot of things and we are having our first date night this saturday and i suggested going to a funny movie,we also planned a night away together and a possible weekend away in the near future.

 

i begin ic tonight and mc next week.

[NOTSURE7]

interesting thing happened...

 

out of the blue i get an instant message from my ow, its been 3 weeks full NC but apparently i blocked her screen name on instant messenger but i failed to block any name from contacting me,so she used another screen name, anyway she writes me that she knows i am blocking her etc etc but she wanted to let me know she is seperating from her H and she hopes i am well...

 

i was very proud of myself and i didnt even respond, she signed off and that was that..

[Snowflower]

You need to tell your wife about the IM, pronto.

 

This is part of the transparency that is vital to rebuilding her trust in you.

 

Sounds like the OW is 'fishing' to see if you're still interested in continuing the A.

[NOTSURE7]

You need to tell your wife about the IM, pronto.

 

This is part of the transparency that is vital to rebuilding her trust in you.

 

Sounds like the OW is 'fishing' to see if you're still interested in continuing the A.

 

i actually did tell my w right before i wrote on here...

 

i had promised my w that i wasnt talking to her and that if she contacted me i would tell her.

 

my w wasnt happy she wrote me but was happy i told her and that i didnt write back..

[PhoenixRise]

You need to tell your wife about the IM, pronto.

 

This is part of the transparency that is vital to rebuilding her trust in you.

 

Sounds like the OW is 'fishing' to see if you're still interested in continuing the A.

 

 

YES YES YES

 

 

Snowflower is absolutely right.

 

Notsure, here is your first test as to whether or not you have truly begun to change your life for the better. It is good that you did not respond to the message.

 

THE crucial thing is to now TELL YOUR WIFE ABOUT IT. Don't hide it. Don't brush it off as nothing or not important. Your wife needs to know that you will let her know about any and all inappropriate contact.

 

Tell your wife what happend and ask her how she thinks the two of you, together should respond.

[PhoenixRise]

i actually did tell my w right before i wrote on here...

 

i had promised my w that i wasnt talking to her and that if she contacted me i would tell her.

 

my w wasnt happy she wrote me but was happy i told her and that i didnt write back..

 

 

OK our posts crossed. I had not seen this. I am glad you told her.

[bentnotbroken]

i actually did tell my w right before i wrote on here...

 

i had promised my w that i wasnt talking to her and that if she contacted me i would tell her.

 

my w wasnt happy she wrote me but was happy i told her and that i didnt write back..

 

 

I would send a letter of NC registered mail. In it I would state that you and your wife are united in remaining NC, and that if it broken again, you will be forced to seek legal action. Maybe you can even get a lawyer or legal aid to draw something up for you. Stick to your guns.