"Men need women more than women need men"

[BobSacamento]

The cynical and bitter ones are just noisier

 

IMO, once men evolve to become collaborative instead of competitive, networking will replace rugged individualism and men as a whole will begin to live longer, healthier and happier lives, regardless of relationship status. Of course, this evolution hinges upon their role models and societal structures supporting this metamorphosis.

 

I have a feeling this comment was perhaps one impetus for this thread. The pragmatist in me examines all angles for relevance

 

You ever read "The World According to Garp" by John Irving? Your comment reminded me of one of the characters.

[EddieN]

We all have our man or woman-hating phases, right? But I'm no hater.

 

I've read some stuff about how men are slipping as women continue to kick ass in college, in the workplace, and on the dating scene. And I look around and what do I see? The women my age that I know are working good jobs, going to school for advanced degrees, running their own companies. The men of comparable age and experience are alcoholics, living with their exes because they are unemployed, and bitching about how they can't get any ass on Craigslist.

 

I just call it like I see it.

 

Well here in college I see a lot of girls who are just here to drink and chase boys. I also see a lot of toolish guys who are only here to drink and chase girls. It evens out.

 

Though, as zhsoj pointed out earlier, most of the girls that aren't in that group and are actually driven are doing social sciences. I'm not saying social sciences are bad, but, they're not rocket science if you know what I mean.

[carhill]

 

But carhill, I hope not. That's one of the things that make you men, so interesting to us.

Can a rugged individualist evolve to a collaborative state and yet retain the aura of interest which attends? Unknown, IMO. Examples surely exist but IME are yet to be embraced by society.

 

I tend to align with powerful males who trend to collaboration (but are still competitive) so perhaps I can learn more in my lifetime. Most, if not all, still exhibit traditional needs/desires for companionship and female care. Some of the younger ones do hold promise, however. Each generation is but a speck of sand on the beach of time

[carhill]

You ever read "The World According to Garp" by John Irving? Your comment reminded me of one of the characters.

Sometimes, right now, during my divorce, I feel like the sergeant gunner, but I assume that's not who you have in mind

[zhsoj]

Honestly... Some of the opinions expressed here are just out there... I don't need boys they are icky! I don't need girls they have cooties!

 

Isolde, really, why stir this pot of craziness!?

[Trialbyfire]

Honestly... Some of the opinions expressed here are just out there... I don't need boys they are icky! I don't need girls they have cooties!

 

Isolde, really, why stir this pot of craziness!?

Get with the program. All boys have cooties!

[Ruby Slippers]

IMO, once men evolve to become collaborative instead of competitive, networking will replace rugged individualism and men as a whole will begin to live longer, healthier and happier lives, regardless of relationship status. Of course, this evolution hinges upon their role models and societal structures supporting this metamorphosis.

Sounds good to me. My best relationships have been with men who were more collaborative than competitive, who attracted me with their intelligence, reason, and creativity, not with their flash. Brawn is great for a fun romp; brains are your best bet for longevity.

 

This also reminds me of why I love my gay male friends so much -- in general, they are excellent collaborators and networkers, very supportive, and stable.

[Woggle]

That independent and wild streak that used to push men to success has slowly been bred out of us for the past few decades. Men don't need women for anything other than reproduction and even for that you don't have to keep her around. The smug misandrist attitude of somebody like Ruby Slippers does not surprise me because men are not taught to command respect anymore. There are many women like her who see men as pathetic jellyfish and truth be told that is how many men have become.

 

Many single and divorced men live the way Ruby Slippers describes but many such as myself between marriages thrived and kept a spotless house. I am also a better cook than most women I know. Many such as my best friend are having the time of their lives but I admit that my influence probably has rubbed off on him. I like having a good woman around but I don't need it and being single is certainly a better deal than dealing with what many men have to go home to.

[clv0116]

I don't want to start a gender war but I think it's interesting how many people feel that men are unhappier single than women are.

 

Hard to measure "unhappiness" but I don't see nearly as many men griping about women not wanting to commit.

[Woggle]

Divorced men tend to be miserable because they never saw it coming and still are wondering what the hell happened. On the other hand the confirmed bachelors I know are having the time of their life.

[Sam Spade]

Of course divorced women are happier . They get, the kids, likely the house, and a decent chunk of the man's money, especially if they haven't earned a dollar during their lives. Yay, spiritual strenght!

[Trialbyfire]

Of course divorced women are happier . They get, the kids, likely the house, and a decent chunk of the man's money, especially if they haven't earned a dollar during their lives. Yay, spiritual strenght!

Something tells me you don't have much real exposure to child-rearing or have had any kids yourself. It's no easy-street to raise children, especially on your own. Children with two parents living together are already challenging, nvm going through the personal emotional trauma of a divorce while balancing the emotional trauma of the children.

 

Children aren't objects to acquire...

[Sam Spade]

That independent and wild streak that used to push men to success has slowly been bred out of us for the past few decades.

 

Guys these days have no worthwile role models. There are so many men that I encounter on a daily basis that i would not want to be stuck on a foxhole with, it's sad. I can see where this is coming from: permissive boomer parenting and a demanding princess at home do nothing to mould a decent guy.

I was raised by a single mom and the only things that prevented this from turning into a disaster were 1) the fact that she had no choice but to be super tough furer style and 2) that her father (i.e. grandpa) was a true old world gentleman

[grogster]

For a story about young straight men who don't appear to need women, check-out this fascinating Slate article about Japan's "grass-eating" men. These are guys who avoid sex, dating and marriage along with the ultra-materialistic, macho lifestyles of their salarymen elders. They go for long walks, decorate their places and game.

 

They appear, for the most part, to be feminized, passive, quasi-autistic guys in hiding.

 

As for me, while I don't eat grass, I'm not the carnivore I used to be. Now I prefer a balanced diet.

 

Here's the link to the Slate story:

 

http://www.slate.com/id/2220535/

[blind_otter]

IME men do need women more than women need men. Of course I've been exposed, for the most part, to "manly men" who fit the traditional gender stereotype pretty well. I tend to shy away from metrosexual men who are too touchy feely or feminized, just a personal preference, no judgment from me.

 

Anyways, from my wonderful father, to my brothers in law, to friends, family, and past lovers to my current partner - IME women have a "civilizing" influence on men. I could go into the myriad details, but the list is too long. My S/O often says his life would be stinkier, lonlier, and darker without my influence and my motivation. My Dad said the same thing about my Mom - she gave him a reason to be a better man.

 

Of course we are all functional adults when we are alone, but when things are going well, having a partner by your side makes life more rich.

[Sam Spade]

Something tells me you don't have much real exposure to child-rearing or have had any kids yourself. It's no easy-street to raise children, especially on your own. Children with two parents living together are already challenging, nvm going through the personal emotional trauma of a divorce while balancing the emotional trauma of the children.

 

Children aren't objects to acquire...

 

So, women are *inherently* better parents? Sure.

[Trialbyfire]

So, women are *inherently* better parents? Sure.

You've missed my point entirely. I believe that most, but not all women, are inherently more nurturing and supportive towards children. Fathers provide the element of tough love, at least to boys.

 

The point is, that "getting" the children isn't always beneficial to whichever party "acquires" them, if you consider domestic work effort, emotional and financial drain. But...it's all worthwhile due to love of the children.

[Jersey Shortie]

I personally think women and men need each other more then either side would like to admit in the modern world. Do we *need* each other for daily basic needs, of course not. Can we get these needs met through other avenues without ever even talking to another member of the opposite sex, yes. But does that make us more evovled or less?

 

I think learning about the opposite sex, forming the kind of relationships that we are discussing here (romantic), learning to think about someone beyond yourself makes men better men and women better women. While it's great to have a healthy respect and confidence in yourself and your ability to take care of yourself. Realizing that the other sex isn't just there to amuse you, to be your "accesory" , but is a real individual that deserves to be treated how you wish to be treated and will bring to the table things you could never bring by yourself is key. Men and women were made to be ying and yang. No one is an island as much as some would like to think they are. That's all ego talking in my opinion.

 

And unfortunetly, in today's world, because relatoinships between men and women have become strained, and because there are so many other options that sustain needs and drives on a surface level, I think that both women and men put less effort in really trying to learn and engage the other sex. We live in an "its all about me culture". And I think that is where alot of this talk about " I don't *need* anybody" comes from. However, we loose something very key and important such as relation to the opposite sex gender, compromise and really valuing someone else beyond our own needs. Relationships today are not better then 50 years ago. I don't know if they are worse in every regard either. I do know that current society, technology and currently attitudes about it being "all about me" have shifted things in a way that I think means the genders have a long way to go before finering anyting out.

 

I don't think men want to make the commitment they once did in my grandfather's generation. And I don't think women are the only ones loosing out for that. I think men are shooting themselves in the foot for it. A lot of boys that grow up to be men do not have the same work ethics, sense of respect, of pride, of commitment to a woman or to life or work that my grandfather did. The truth is, a man is more of a man for how he learns to treat and respect women. Just the same for women. So I don't buy into the ideologies that for guys it's all grand and for women, it's all doom and gloom. Anyone can see on this board that guys struggle just as much.

 

And if you believe in the Bible, which I do, man's greatest sin is complanceny and woman's is being controlling. Because Eve didn't trust God enough and thought he was holding out on her and thought the fruit would bring greater pleasure and Adam stood by and did nothing about it. And if you think of alot of issues between men and women and stereotypes, you see this lived out in the modern world quite often. I guess that's why I kind of wish men would stand up more and be more protective.

[sumdude]

 

I don't think men want to make the commitment they once did in my grandfather's generation. And I don't think women are the only ones loosing out for that. I think men are shooting themselves in the foot for it. A lot of boys that grow up to be men do not have the same work ethics, sense of respect, of pride, of commitment to a woman or to life or work that my grandfather did. The truth is, a man is more of a man for how he learns to treat and respect women. Just the same for women. So I don't buy into the ideologies that for guys it's all grand and for women, it's all doom and gloom. Anyone can see on this board that guys struggle just as much.

 

And if you believe in the Bible, which I do, man's greatest sin is complanceny and woman's is being controlling. Because Eve didn't trust God enough and thought he was holding out on her and thought the fruit would bring greater pleasure and Adam stood by and did nothing about it. And if you think of alot of issues between men and women and stereotypes, you see this lived out in the modern world quite often. I guess that's why I kind of wish men would stand up more and be more protective.

 

As a man who has made that commitment and found much to my chagrin that my mate wouldn't keep it you bet I'll be a lot less likely to do it again... or will I?

 

Then again I probably didn't make the best choice in a mate and take responsibility for my part in the failed marriage but I never considered breaking my commitment.

 

I'm the child of Eastern European refugees from world war II. I'm 41 but I've realized that the family culture I grew up with was very different from that of most of my peers. My parents were a little older and lot more like my friends grandparents. My parents met in the US, their families survived the perils of war by sticking together. The majority of my freinds come from divorced parents and have a different view on relationships.

 

Love is a verb..

[Jersey Shortie]

As a man who has made that commitment and found much to my chagrin that my mate wouldn't keep it you bet I'll be a lot less likely to do it again... or will I?

 

I can't say personally for you. I do experience alot of men who don't want to make commitments. I don't think that's something for other men to be proud of and I don't think it's a situation that is great for men but bad for women.

 

Then again I probably didn't make the best choice in a mate and take responsibility for my part in the failed marriage but I never considered breaking my commitment.

 

Well we all make mistakes.

 

I'm the child of Eastern European refugees from world war II. I'm 41 but I've realized that the family culture I grew up with was very different from that of most of my peers. My parents were a little older and lot more like my friends grandparents. My parents met in the US, their families survived the perils of war by sticking together. The majority of my freinds come from divorced parents and have a different view on relationships.

 

Love is a verb..

 

My parents are also together, they have gone through ups and downs. Alot of my friends have divorced parents as well.

[Trialbyfire]

Jersey, what I've found, if it helps, is that real life men aren't near as commitment sensitive, as the men on LS. Much of that has to do with the nature of LS, where people come here after being traumatized from the cessation of their relationships/marriages.

 

In counting backwards over the past couple of years+ IRL, there were two men I dated who were committed bachelors, but I knew that going into it and was just casually dating, which they also knew upfront. Beyond that, the rest that I dated, didn't have an issue with commitment except the one who changed his mind partway and wanted commitment.

[Jersey Shortie]

Well, maybe it's our ages that have given us different perspectives for now Trial.

[Woggle]

I actually somewhat agree with JS. JS can you tell me this? Being a commitmentphobe is not something to be proud but can you admit that the self protection instinct in today's men is perfectly understandable? Don't you think that woman had at least something to do with why many men feel like selflessly working for their family is just not worth it? It's not this one sided thing where just want to abandon their responsibilites.

[Jersey Shortie]

Seriously Woogle, despite there being injustices towards men, that I don't agree with, I still think men have an over-all easier time of it in today's society then women. Doesn't mean the issues men face aren't important or shouldn't be discussed. But you, and in all honesty, many men seem to want to only make a case for the struggles men face and forget that women work just as hard, just as selflessly, also use self protection as an instinct because of the way men behave towards them. It works both ways. Yes, I think some men use self protection. I also think many men think about themselves first only. Young guys today, younger then you, just don't have a huge sense of responsibilty. Blame women, blame feminism, blame parents. Either way, it comes to the same conclusion.

[Trialbyfire]

Well, maybe it's our ages that have given us different perspectives for now Trial.

It's possible. I think you're around 26 or 27 years old and I'm 34. When I was your age, I was already in a committed relationship, so I missed the single phase that you're going through.

 

What age have you been dating for the last couple of years? I've always tended to target men who were around 5 years older, which also might account for the difference in perception.