Am I an ABUSER! (long)

[tojaz]

Really not sure what I'm going to hear, but here is my story. While I realize that it is just my side, I will try to be as honest as I can and will check back often to answer any questions. I would appreciate as much Feedback as I can get, good or bad.

 

I have been with my wife for 12 years, but only married for two. About almost two months ago, she told me out of the blue that she wanted a divorce, no counseling, no other options, just wants out.

 

We have continued to talk, and among many complaints she has had for me was that I am emotionally abusive. This hurt me, because our whole time together, I have always tried my best to do what was right for her and she has never really complained. It has gotten me thinking though. I can isolate some situations, Things she has labeled as abuse. I don't want to be that guy, for her or if need be for somebody else. I guess my question is, can lapses in judgement or emotionally charged situations in my mind, be a pattern of abuse?

 

I have not been a perfect partner and have had my problems, I can admit that. I can be jealous at times. Early in our relationship I was extremely jealous and possessive. I had been in a string of bad relationships and suspicion tended to rule my mind until trust was built between us. This was an unhealthy part of our time together, but as my trust in her grew things became better and the suspicions faded. In those times, i would grill her if she was late without calling and often accused her of being unfaithful. This was almost nine years ago or so. Since then I can honestly not recall any time I have accused her of anything like that until right before the divorce. A couple of weeks prior she had asked me for permission to travel to the city for the day, with an ex-boyfriend of hers that she had recently become friends with again. I was also made clear that I was not invited. I had told her previous to that, that spending time with him made me uncomfortable and requested that she not see him. I had never requested she not see any of her friends before this guy. She has many male friends that she lunches with alone, and talks to on a regular basis, but this particular situation made me very uncomfortable. I did not accuse her of anything or even suspect, I was more concerned with his intentions. Later after the divorce request, and we tried to work on our problems, I must admit that i am guilty of checking up on her. I looked at her cell phone, checked her E-mail, etc. to find out that she had been in constant contact with this guy behind my back. I had never felt the need to check up on her before. Was this behavior abusive?

 

While I do not punch holes in the wall, or anything like that, there are instances that I reacted violently. Early in our relationship, I had shoved her pretty good a few times. I would say enough to be counted on one hand, but not sure of the number. She had never gone to the ground, but after the last time I sought out counseling so that I would not allow it to escalate further. I believe that i can honestly say that i have never laid a hand on her in anger since. I can remember throwing things or knocking thing over on four occasions. The first time was many years ago during a particularly heated argument I knocked over a dresser. The next occasion was right before the divorce in the situation with her ex, upon leaving for work I kicked my car very hard damaging it. She was not present for that. During a discussion about the divorce, when I realized she was reading a book while talking to me, I took the book ant threw it out in the yard. Lastly when I had discovered she had been sneaking behind my back, I shattered a glass cutting board when she couldn't decide between the other guy and me. While these are definitely not healthy behavior, given the circumstances, would this be considered abuse?

 

Criticizing, is one I know I'm guilty of. There are certain subjects that i can recognize that I criticized her unfairly on. Mostly, the way she drives and some things around the house. Pet peeves of mine that really didn't mean anything yet I would comment on anyways. There had been times when this was going on, that I would stop and ask myself why it mattered, and it didn't. It wasn't an intentional thing, there was nothing to gain from it. it would always start as a suggestion or just sharing my opinion, but things would quickly escalate into a pointless stupid argument about something that was meaningless. I had been making every attempt to curb this behavior or avoid the subjects all together,on my own but I would still slip and felt terrible about it. I would tease her about her work sometimes. She works from home with computers, while i work a more physically taxing job. When she would complain of a hard day at "work," I would often compare hers to mine in a negative way. I realize that there are different types of work stresses, it was kind of hard to hear about her troubles when I was dead on my feet. This doesn't make it right.

 

These I believe are the major issues we have had. While I am sure there are more, and please feel free to ask ??? There are definitely unhealthy behaviors here, I will not deny that. Is this enough to constitute an abusive marriage worthy of divorce? I look forward to your feedback.

[missdependant]

Don't take this the wrong way, but she probably should have left you when you started pushing her or being physically aggressive toward her. I am in no way a supporter of abuse whether it's physical, emotional, sexual; against a man or a woman.. it's all wrong in my book.

 

Obviously, she made the choice to forgive you for this and stay with you. And that's fine.. The examples that you mentioned (shoving, aside) did not seem abusive. To me, it sounds like you lost your temper. I haven't dated a single guy who hasn't thrown something or kicked something or knocked something over out of frustration or anger or anxiety at some point in their life. If you were able to take out some of your annoyances on inanimate objects instead of her, that's actually a good thing in my opinion. Now, if you were destroying things on a daily basis, that's a bit excessive.. but it sounds like an occasional thing. Same goes if you were throwing things directly at her.. that could be considered abuse.

 

Possessive and controlling behavior can very easily be related to emotional abuse. While going through her things is not a very nice thing to do, I don't consider it abuse. If you use your findings as reason to call her names, put her down, try and make her feel worthless, bully her, etc., etc.. then THAT is more what emotional abuse is.

 

I do not know that her telling you that she believes you are "emotionally abusive" was her true reason for wanting to leave you. It sounds to me like she is trying to find somewhere to place the blame besides herself. It is understandable that you wouldn't want her hanging around her ex-boyfriend from years and years ago. This would raise questions for me too, if I was in your situation.

 

It sounds to me like you have taken advantage of the therapy and counseling you received.. you don't sound abusive. It sounds like you struggled with some issues a long time ago, but it also sounds like you have done much to try and fix the issue and overcome those behaviors.

 

If you ask me, I think your wife is just looking for any reason to leave you.

[GorillaTheater]

A couple of weeks prior she had asked me for permission to travel to the city for the day, with an ex-boyfriend of hers that she had recently become friends with again. I was also made clear that I was not invited. I had told her previous to that, that spending time with him made me uncomfortable and requested that she not see him.

 

...

 

While I do not punch holes in the wall, or anything like that, there are instances that I reacted violently. Early in our relationship, I had shoved her pretty good a few times. I would say enough to be counted on one hand, but not sure of the number.

 

This are the only examples of abuse, in my opinion. The last one is/was on you. But the first one is on her.

 

She's re-writing history to justify to herself what she's doing. This really isn't about you.

[Kamille]

Since the words she used is "emotionnally abusive", I paid more attention to what could be construed as emotional abuse. Two things stood out:

 

1) You say she asked you for permission to see a friend. Granted, I understand you likely only used that phrase lightly, but why would two equal partners need to ask each other permissions to do things? In my current and past relationships, we discuss our actions together, and hopefully arrive at a compromise that works for both of us. I have never felt like I had to "ask or grant permission", even when discussing exes and friends of the opposite gender. Also, in this instance, you say you were worried about his intentions, not hers.

 

2) The criticizing. My ex, an otherwise outstanding human being, did like to criticize me a lot, and tell me how to do things. Now that I'm in a new relationship where I have yet to be criticized once, I wonder why I ever put up with it. I guess it brings me back to the "ask for permission" thing. To me, my ex's criticism often felt like put downs. It ensured that he kept being in the drivers seat, and made me feel like I was somehow deficient. Now, maybe if I had had a thicker skin I would have been able to take it with a grain of salt and some humor. (Times he made me cry, he said it was all a joke). So, no, I don't necessarily think it makes you an abuser, but, if your wife is anything like me, it does make you and your wife incompatible.

[carhill]

Marital history rewrite by a cheater in the fog, IMO. Taking of imperfections in action and behavior and projecting them as global negatives.

 

Now would be a good time for you to work through these issues. If you don't, they'll beat up your self-esteem for a long time to come. You're taking responsibility for your actions. That's a good thing.

 

Beware of gaslighting. I'm sensing some of it here. IME, you will never be a match for a woman when it comes to emotional manipulation. Do not try to rationalize or otherwise engage in such dynamics. Stick true to your responsibility and your actions and your wants and needs in the M. Don't waffle.

 

Is she ready to leave? If so, make sure it's her. Don't abandon your home.

 

Are you ready for some clarity? Tell her to cease contact with the ex-BF and join you in MC. If no joy, go alone and file for D. BTW, I am aware that she wants a divorce. The key here is that you take proactive and positive action. Simple as that.

[Ronni_W]

The thing about being the abused -- if SHE sees it that way, then that IS how she sees it...that is HER perception of her situation as seen through her own filters, wants, goals, needs, beliefs, etc.

 

It doesn't mean, though, that she's using accurate definitions or interpreting her "evidence" accurately.

 

It sounds is if you do have anger/rage issues. You got a bit of help with that, but sounds as if you might be wise to undertake to totally get that side of yourself under control.

 

Jealousy, criticism, even over-control...well, who does NOT engage in some of that, some of the time? Yes, they are damaging to a relationship but so is passivity, withdrawing, under-responsibility, etc. It depends on the degree but, IMO, are in the range of 'normal' dysfunctional/unconscious behaviour and not what would be generally accepted as "emotional abuse" (again, depending on the degree.)

 

As carhill says, it could also just be her grasping at straws and looking for ways to deflect her own inconsiderate and relationship-damaging behaviours onto you.

 

If you are also trying to decide whether or not you want to stay in this marriage, I'd suggest to take "emotional abuse" out of the equation and use all the other factors to arrive at your own conclusions.

[bentnotbroken]

You said an instance was the day before her divorce was final with her ex, were you an OM? Did you get with her before she divorced? Is this the reason you were overly jealous, because she cheated with you, so you thought she would cheat on you? If this is the case, you knew her character before you married and she knew yours, sounds like a divorce was inevitable if you(and she) haven't changed your core value systems.

[tojaz]

Thanks for all the honest replies. I forgot, that he story of my divorce is also on LS http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t190291/ For a clearer picture if you'd like.

 

MISSDEPENDENT- I agree with you 100% about the physical aspect of things. The shoving was just that, not into a wall, not to the ground, but still unexcusable. That is why I sought out counseling and any time we had a fight after that I kept the image of that moment in my head, lest I repeat it. She did forgive, and I have always been greatful for that.

 

KAMILLE

1. She did not "ask for permission" and this was not a necesity in our relationship, just as you described. She more or less asked how I felt about it. I had been under the impression that she was no longer in contact with him since our last conversation about him, that was the reason I reacted (although poorly) the way I did.

 

2. The criticizing, was a problem I had recognized in myself. Unfortunately I have to own that one, and I;m working on it. Guilty as charged.

 

 

CARHILL- If you check back in, I'd like to hear more about "gaslighting" me? her? both??? I have devoted myself to working on my issues, and have entered counseling to help with that. While I am hoping more then anything for a reconcilliation, my marriage is all but over, she has moved out, and filed, my summons is staring at me as I type. This post was more about exploring flaws in myself that need to repaired.

 

Ronni_W- Very good way of looking at things. Like i told Carhill, I have entered counseling to focus on these issues, if not for this relationship, then for the next one. I'm not sure to what degree, this would be considered, these instance, while very wrong, are spread over 12 years and I have tried to recall all that I could.

 

You said an instance was the day before her divorce was final with her ex, were you an OM? Did you get with her before she divorced? Is this the reason you were overly jealous, because she cheated with you, so you thought she would cheat on you? If this is the case, you knew her character before you married and she knew yours, sounds like a divorce was inevitable if you(and she) haven't changed your core value systems.

No, I believe you misread something, this has been a first marriage for both of us. I believe I was overly jealous due to being cheated on in relationships previous. Once again Guilty as charged.

 

TOJAZ

[bentnotbroken]

Thanks for all the honest replies. I forgot, that he story of my divorce is also on LS http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t190291/ For a clearer picture if you'd like.

 

MISSDEPENDENT- I agree with you 100% about the physical aspect of things. The shoving was just that, not into a wall, not to the ground, but still unexcusable. That is why I sought out counseling and any time we had a fight after that I kept the image of that moment in my head, lest I repeat it. She did forgive, and I have always been greatful for that.

 

KAMILLE

1. She did not "ask for permission" and this was not a necesity in our relationship, just as you described. She more or less asked how I felt about it. I had been under the impression that she was no longer in contact with him since our last conversation about him, that was the reason I reacted (although poorly) the way I did.

 

2. The criticizing, was a problem I had recognized in myself. Unfortunately I have to own that one, and I;m working on it. Guilty as charged.

 

 

CARHILL- If you check back in, I'd like to hear more about "gaslighting" me? her? both??? I have devoted myself to working on my issues, and have entered counseling to help with that. While I am hoping more then anything for a reconcilliation, my marriage is all but over, she has moved out, and filed, my summons is staring at me as I type. This post was more about exploring flaws in myself that need to repaired.

 

Ronni_W- Very good way of looking at things. Like i told Carhill, I have entered counseling to focus on these issues, if not for this relationship, then for the next one. I'm not sure to what degree, this would be considered, these instance, while very wrong, are spread over 12 years and I have tried to recall all that I could.

 

No, I believe you misread something, this has been a first marriage for both of us. I believe I was overly jealous due to being cheated on in relationships previous. Once again Guilty as charged.

 

TOJAZ

 

 

 

My mistake, my apologies.

[hey_beautiful]

I am on the fence about this. I think abuse is subjective, and if the person you are with views it as abuse, then you know you are doing something wrong. I grew up in an abusive family, but it manifested itself differently. Just going off of what I consider abuse, I'd say that you weren't abusive per se, you just have a big issue controlling your temper. There is no excuse for behavior when you lash out or behave violently, because there are always better options...but I do believe it happens to the best of us at one point or another. You seem very critical, and even you admit it. It's good that you recognize these things now. It's fair for your wife to consider divorce if the person she invests time in puts her down in one way or another. I don't consider this an abusive marriage, but one that needs to be remedied on BOTH ends. And being worthy of divorce is in yours and your wife's hands. I truly do believe that because you have recognized the issues and don't deny them, that you have a good chance at changing your behaviors by trying little things everyday that help you in a positive way. Whether it be taking 10 breaths before you respond to a comment, or even reading some self help books, writing your negative feelings down in a blog, whatever it is.

[tojaz]

hey Beautiful, Thanks for the suggestions, I'm going to try them. Thats, a good point that abuse is really in the eye of the beholder, I guess thats why all the descriptions are so vague. Something to keep in mind!!

TOJAZ

[Taramere]

While I do not punch holes in the wall, or anything like that, there are instances that I reacted violently.

 

I'm wondering if there's a special book that grades violent behaviour. Grade one being "come on now, everyone raises their voice and smashes a glass cutting board now and again..." Ten being "Dear God, please wake me up from this nightmare. There's blood trickling from my wife's temple - and, and, Oh Jesus, and I've also punched a hole in the living room wall."

 

I don't really see any doubt that the actions you described were abusive. They're not the most horrendously violent actions any person ever indulged in, but that doesn't mean they're okay. It doesn't mean that no reasonable person could possibly have been disturbed by what you did.

 

Say you were stuck in an office with a workmate who was significantly larger than you. Say he became furiously angry during an argument with you...then dealt with that anger by throwing office equipment over and smashing something. Say there was nobody around to step in and rescue you if the violence became directed straight at you.

 

I think you'd probably feel threatened in that situation with a larger, stronger man. It doesn't even need to be a larger, stronger man. It could be anyone at all who'd permitted themselves to lose it (and people do generally give themselves that permission, as opposed to being rendered utterly helpless by a red mist of rage) to the point where they smashed or threw some object. I think you'd regard that behaviour as unacceptably abusive. I'm pretty sure most reasonable people would, and it seems a bit ridiculous that you're even asking (of the actions you described) "was this abusive?" You know those episodes were unacceptable.

 

But I think what you really want to know is....are you a habitually abusive person? An all round bad egg? Have you behaved violently enough times for it to be a pattern of behaviour for you, that you might apologise for, but have no real impetus to ever change? Something that your wife has witnessed on sufficient occasions that it's become normal for her to feel jumpy and edgy around you? To dread the sound of your key in the lock? To feel less safe when you're around? From what you're saying, it doesn't sound as though the situation had reached a level like that. More that there were some isolated episodes, over a long period of time, of unacceptable behaviour - plus a tendency to be negative and critical around her, which you're aware of and have attempted to improve.

 

Another question I'd ask is....which issue is of greater concern to you? The prospect of your wife having experienced fear, stress and upset in response to the episodes you mentioned? Or Joe Bloggs/Jane Doe thinking it would be right and proper to pin the "abuser" label onto you?

 

How you answer on this board is irrelevant, but how you answer those questions in your own mind (where you can be as honest as you like, without fear of judgement or reprisals) will probably give you some of the answers you're looking for as to who you are and how much other people should rely on your essential good will towards them.

 

ETA - you've asked whether the behaviour you described justifies a divorce. Who knows, really? I don't know about where you live, but where I live there is only one ground for divorce and that is that the marriage has broken down irretrievably. It can be proven by different things (separation for a given period, behaviour within the marriage that the court agrees a spouse couldn't reasonably be expected to live with), but the bottom line is that for whatever reason the marriage isn't working any more. Even if that's only one person's view, and their spouse believes that it would be possible to work things through.

 

It's as though you're focused on trying to get clear answers here about whether it's reasonable for your wife to want to divorce you. I'm sure most of us have been there at some point....we felt someone's perspective of us was unfair, or that they've held grudges for past behaviour that we've tried very hard to remedy. But however articulately we might argue that they're not being quite fair, does that change the other person's perceptions of us? I think in most cases it doesn't. They might concede rational points we're making, and they might even agree that they're being unfair in certain respects....but that's cold comfort if their emotional response to us continues to be that they don't want to stay in the relationship. In that situation, there's not really anything you can do beyond doing what you need to do (and getting any help available in that) to start adjusting to the loss.

[tojaz]

Thanks Taramere, that was a very good reply. The office analogy really puts things in a new light. I have not denied that these actions are violent, and wrong. That is something I realized directly after they occured. I felt very ashamed reliving them as i wrote this thread. I guess, it's my definition of abuse that is the problem. I see these as unhealthy and barbaric acts of frustration, poorly managed anger. I see abuse as a deliberate attempt to cause harm or control another person for your own gain. While I have no doubts that these actions effected my wife, that was not WHY I did them. I took no pleasure, quite the opposite really. Which is why i sought help long ago.

 

My intention in posting this was to get the opinion of people who may be more knowledgeable and with an outside perspective, searching for information on my situation not reassurance. I have always wanted to be the best for my wife, but had many mis steps along the way. Going through this, I just need a clear picture of what i brought to the breakdown in an effort to better myself.

 

As for justifying divorce, I too live in a no fault state. The divorce is set and nothing I can do will stop it. Once again, just looking for opinions on how it came about so i can own whats mine.

TOJAZ

[Girlygal]

I would like to address one point of this thread,

 

The asking for permission/asking how you felt about it.

 

To me this is the largest sign. As stated before in an equal relationship why would one feel the need to ask for permission. As you stated she has several guy friends that she lunches with regularly, so why with this guy did she feel the need to ask? IMO, this sounds as though she knew seeing this guy was not a wise thing to do. It also sounds like she knew that by asking this and making this meeting an "issue" she would get a rise out of you.

 

I honestly think that she simply asked in order to provoke a fight with you, and eventually be able to put blame on you. She put you in a position where your actions could be misconsturde as controlling when truly you were attempting to protect your marriage. A womans mind is a devious place and she is toying with you. She KNOWS that it is her that wants out and it is on HER to do the leaving. However she wants to leave with you feeling as though it is YOUR fault, not HERS. Then she can be guilt free.

 

I would not buy into this one iota. Have faith in yourself, i can not see (by what you have stated) any wrong doing. All of us have temper tantrums, we all throw things or punch things or say silly remarks on a persons driving (just ask my H, i drive him crazy with my back seat driving). They are not trye abusive patterns.

 

I think you should continue the counseling on your own and make peace with the fact that you have done nothing wrong. And do as stated previous, make sure SHE does the leaving, she wants out not you so you stay put and make her move out!

[blind_otter]

I see these as unhealthy and barbaric acts of frustration, poorly managed anger. I see abuse as a deliberate attempt to cause harm or control another person for your own gain. While I have no doubts that these actions effected my wife, that was not WHY I did them. I took no pleasure, quite the opposite really.

 

I just wanted to mention that there are actually few if any abusers that deliberately attempt to cause harm. I mean, they do exist - but those guys usually have underlying more severe personality disorders that cause them to see other human beings are objects and tools.

 

IME, abusive relationships happen when two people have poor coping skills. Usually the person who acts out in violence does not have a good idea of how to manage their emotions, and the person being abused has issues that prevent them from being able to establish and maintain healthy boundaries.

 

What I'm trying to say is - only sadists get pleasure from hurting other people. In my most intensely abusive relationship, my ex ended up going to prison for his inability to control his emotions - but I sincerely do not think he actually felt good about trying to kill another human being.

 

I believe it is abusive, because you know that it is wrong to do, and you do it anyways. IMO there is no degree of "OK" when it comes to lashing out, verbally or physically, out of anger.

 

There ARE healthy, safe ways to cope with overwhelming emotions. If you find that you do not know these methods, it is your responsibility to learn.

 

The thing about abuse is that IME it is what it is and what's done is done - you can apologize out the yin yang, as my mom says, and it won't do anything to change what has been done.

 

There are a lot of crazy situations that can happen in life - but I think that when someone treats you bad or is selfish, that is merely a reason to leave them, or seek help together - never, ever a reason or excuse to do anything other than that.

[Taramere]

Thanks Taramere, that was a very good reply. The office analogy really puts things in a new light. I have not denied that these actions are violent, and wrong. That is something I realized directly after they occured. I felt very ashamed reliving them as i wrote this thread. I guess, it's my definition of abuse that is the problem. I see these as unhealthy and barbaric acts of frustration, poorly managed anger. I see abuse as a deliberate attempt to cause harm or control another person for your own gain.

 

Well, I believe that we all have the potential to abuse other people - whether physically or emotionally. If I'm feeling very stressed, misunderstood or unfairly treated, I can feel myself wanting to lash out. I grew up with a parent who could often be quite violent (verbally and physically) and I saw how ugly it looks. I really didn't want to be like that myself, so I suppose that from a fairly early age I learned a lot of techniques for managing my temper. Some of them good, some of them possibly annoying or slightly self destructive.

 

They say that depression is anger turned inwards, and I have had bouts of it. Abusers are often less prone to depression because they direct their anger outwards. On the downside for them, the fact that they do that will often result in them losing important people in their lives. Or being faced with the depression (and all that entails) of those important people.

 

You can get that really unhealthy cycle where an abuser hooks up with someone who's prone to depression, and both are getting some kind of secondary gain from that. Even if it that just involves taking the way they manage their anger to an extreme that makes them feel powerful. Covertly ("I'm so depressed....look what you did to me") or overtly ("don't screw with me or you'll end up badly hurt").

 

While I have no doubts that these actions effected my wife, that was not WHY I did them. I took no pleasure, quite the opposite really. Which is why i sought help long ago.

 

I'd repeat Otter's comments about pleasure in performing abusive actions being something that's restricted to sadists. For other people it's probably more a case of feeling temporarily powerful for having given oneself permission to have a tantrum. If there's any pleasure at all, it would be the pleasure of feeling 3 years old again perhaps.

 

My intention in posting this was to get the opinion of people who may be more knowledgeable and with an outside perspective, searching for information on my situation not reassurance. I have always wanted to be the best for my wife, but had many mis steps along the way. Going through this, I just need a clear picture of what i brought to the breakdown in an effort to better myself.

 

I think that's the most positive response you can have. Have you thought about getting counselling? The reason I ask is that if you're analysing your own actions and your contribution to a negative situation, it's not a bad idea to do it in front of a third, objective party who'll step in if (in talking about the situation) you start going OTT in drumming negative messages about yourself into yourself. Regardless of how insightful you may be, it's very easy to start doing that....and it won't help you or anyone else. I'd recommend counselling for that reason alone. Edit - sorry, see you are already getting counselling. How regular are the sessions, and are you finding it easy to talk to the counsellor?

 

I think this is a pretty good article about abuse. It looks into the patterns of thinking and behaviour that often precede or accompany abusive behaviour, rather than just trying to differentiate between "abusive" and "not abusive" episodes of behaviour. Other than Otter, it seems like the majority of other posters on this thread are focusing on your wife's behaviour and presenting it to you in terms that indicate that she rather than you is the abusive one in this scenario (eg emotionally abusive). That's not unfeasible. In any relationship that isn't working well and where there's stress on both parties, I think there's potential for there to be some element of emotional abuse on both sides.

 

Because at present you're viewing this in terms of you - abuser, your wife - victim, I think people are trying to help you to see that it can work both ways. Emotional abuse can leave some pretty bad psychological scars....but clearly, losing one's temper and becoming physically violent puts the other person at risk of immediate and significant physical harm. That's why I, like you (and Otter) am tending to focus on the isolated episodes you mentioned here. Things that stemmed from a loss of temper. Regardless of whether someone's behaving in what could be termed as emotionally abusive ways, your first priority has to involve managing your own responses to that and being able to prevent yourself from losing it. Then you're in a position to challenge and address their emotionally abusive behaviour in an effective manner.

 

I honestly think that she simply asked in order to provoke a fight with you, and eventually be able to put blame on you. She put you in a position where your actions could be misconsturde as controlling when truly you were attempting to protect your marriage. A womans mind is a devious place and she is toying with you. She KNOWS that it is her that wants out and it is on HER to do the leaving. However she wants to leave with you feeling as though it is YOUR fault, not HERS. Then she can be guilt free.

 

I would not buy into this one iota. Have faith in yourself, i can not see (by what you have stated) any wrong doing. All of us have temper tantrums, we all throw things or punch things or say silly remarks on a persons driving (just ask my H, i drive him crazy with my back seat driving). They are not trye abusive patterns.

 

Those are quite some assumptions to make about a woman who's unable to present her side of things on the board (although credit to the OP, he seems to be making strenuous efforts to present her likely perspective as fairly as possible). As for the "a woman's mind is a devious place" remark...the fact that you're a woman yourself doesn't qualify you to narrate the contents of other women's minds. Maybe your speculations about her are correct, but really - what good would that do the OP? Bottom line, you are not this woman, you don't know her and you have no kind of insight into her mind simply because you also happen to be a woman.

 

You may believe that he has undue feelings of guilt here, and that it's your role to relieve him of those feelings. But replace them with what? Anger revolving around the negative beliefs and assumptions you're encouraging him to have here? He's admitted to having an anger management problem. He's done a lot of work on it, to drastically reduce the likelihood of physically violent outbursts here. It doesn't mean the problem's vanished, and I think you do him no favours in encouraging him to perceive matters in a way that will simply wind him up. From what I can see, he's someone who's trying to analyse the role he played in a marriage that went wrong - learn something from it, and hopefully move on to have more successful relationships in the future.

 

And for the record, we don't all punch or throw things in fits of temper You may do, Girlygirl, but I don't, and I'm pretty sure I'm not some glowing exception to the norm. Restraint isn't beyond anyone's control - and again, following up on what Otter said in her excellent post, it's our responsibility as adults to put a bit of effort into applying that restraint, even in the face of provocation.

[sugarmomma]

All of us have temper tantrums, we all throw things or punch things or say silly remarks on a persons driving (just ask my H, i drive him crazy with my back seat driving). They are not trye abusive patterns.

 

 

 

Please speak for yourself because all people do not act like this. I am recovering from an abusive past and I had to become educated about all forms of abuse (psychological, mental, emotional, physical and financial).

 

According to what the OP has stated, I would definitely consider him to be an abusive man. One thing that I look for in a partner today is how well he handles his emotions when confronted with conflict. How a man resolves conflict says a lot about his character and level of maturity. Healthy people don't criticize, become possessive/controlling or jealous but insecure people do these things, for whatever reason.

 

I would suggest that you look at YOUR behavior only in this situation and not listen to others saying that she is cheating and trying to absolve herself of any responsibility/guilt. Even is she is, so what? The marriage is over and all you can do is try to be a better person for the next relationship because if you don't change you will continue the pattern of unhealthy dysfunctional relationships ( from your own admission).

 

I would say continue counseling and educate yourself about the patterns of abuse and how to have a healthy r and I am sure you will have a better quality of a r the next time around.

 

Remember, keep the focus on you and your patterns of behavior and get the help you need. I got the help I needed and I would never be with someone who didn't bring out the best in me.

 

Good Luck!!

[Mary3]

She wanted an exit out .

 

She found it.

 

She is involved with this ex boyfriend . She is leaving you for him.

 

Not trying to say the above to hurt you. But if she intends to keep you in the dark and play stupid about the other guy , she is wrong.

 

I realize you were a former abuser. You have stated that you have made leaps and bounds for better treatment and behavior. I will give you that.

 

I don't think ANY of this is to do with abuse.

 

Its about rehashing a relationship with her ex. She wants out.

 

I would try to figure out how to get on with your life. I would NOT take her back when he dumps her.

 

Tell her this " I will go to Marriage Counseling in an effort to salvage the marriage but we need to do it now. Not when your lover dumps you. I wont BE HERE for you later. Give her a week or so to think about it and then move on with your LIFE:

[Girlygal]

Please speak for yourself because all people do not act like this. I am recovering from an abusive past and I had to become educated about all forms of abuse (psychological, mental, emotional, physical and financial).

 

 

 

I also come from an abusive past, my father was jailed after attempting to murder my mom, after years of abuse. I grew up watching abuse, i know what it is thank you very much!

 

You are clearly misinterperting what i am saying.

 

I am sorry for your past, but a lesson i learned long ago and think may help you is this. Despite your back ground you simply CANNOT look at every man as an abuser, and our background causes us to flinch at every possibility. We have to move forward from that. We cannot look at every situation and place our abusers face on the person.

 

I did not take any of what he was writing as an A-Typical abuse pattern. He has let his emotions get the best of him yes. But he has recognized and sought help for those times. To me that makes him a man worthy of a pat on the back, not an attack.

 

And yes i do believe we all have temper tantrums, and have little fits. It just depends on how our fits manifest. For some it is throwing things, for others it is attacking a blog and making ourselves feel better by the power imbiguity grants us.

[Taramere]

I also come from an abusive past, my father was jailed after attempting to murder my mom, after years of abuse. I grew up watching abuse, i know what it is thank you very much!

 

That sounds absolutely dreadful.

 

Not all parents beat their kids, and not all people flood with rage to the point where they throw things, scream or break stuff. I think it can be extremely difficult for anyone who's grown up in a fraught and sometimes violent environment to believe that not everyone indulges themselves in outbursts of screaming, throwing and breaking things. The sense of "this is normal...everyone does it" prevails. "I got the crap beaten out of me as a kid. A screaming fit or a few breakages is nothing. People totally overstate this whole 'abuse' thing..."

 

He has let his emotions get the best of him yes. But he has recognized and sought help for those times. To me that makes him a man worthy of a pat on the back, not an attack.

 

Yes, he does deserve a lot of credit for learning to manage his anger....but how did he do it? I think he did it by recognising that it's in the moments of high stress that people reveal their strength or weakness of character. The person who habitually reacts to stress by bottling it up and then throwing tantrums periodically is a weak character. The kind of individual you can't trust in a crisis, or under pressure, because they lack the mental discipline to keep cool under stress and assert themselves calmly instead of throwing a wobbly.

 

A weak character can become a stronger one by looking in the mirror and saying "what I did was wrong. I'm going to master the things inside me that caused me to do that. I'm going to become a stronger, better person." Which is part of what counselling is for (even though it's viewed with great suspicion by one or two of the posters here - though that's a different thread altogether...).

 

The OP wanted to be a stronger character. Good on him for taking a serious and committed approach to become one, instead of falling back on the usual opt outs "he/she was annoying me....I had my period (for women)....I had a headache....work was getting on top of me.....I'm only human, and everyone loses it now and again". I'm not suggesting that it's symptomatic of being the devil's spawn when a person falls back on these excuses, but it is weak. And sure, it's the human condition to have various weaknesses, but poor anger control is one of the worst in that it can destroy affection very quickly. Especially if the person who witnesses that anger regularly sees that the person doesn't have any serious commitment towards addressing it.

 

Owning up to the weakness and making the decision to start tackling it instead of excusing it is the first step to becoming a better person. Easy to say, very difficult to do....so I agree with you that the OP should be applauded for learning to manage his temper. I think he did it by taking the "no excuses" approach to any outbursts - even isolated ones. He could probably start a very useful thread on how he managed to do it.

[jasminetea]

Another very useful thread for me to read with some great advice.

 

I agree with you that the OP should be applauded for learning to manage his temper. I think he did it by taking the "no excuses" approach to any outbursts - even isolated ones. He could probably start a very useful thread on how he managed to do it.

 

OP, please do tell us how you managed to do it, I'm sure there's lots that would benefit, I certainly would!

 

Taramere: the URL you linked to is broken, any chance you could redo it?

[Taramere]

Another very useful thread for me to read with some great advice.

 

OP, please do tell us how you managed to do it, I'm sure there's lots that would benefit, I certainly would!

 

Taramere: the URL you linked to is broken, any chance you could redo it?

 

 

I tried, jasmine, but I don't know where it's gone. I'll see if I can find another one that's in a similar vein. The problem I have with a lot of articles on abuse is that they tend to focus on abuse from men rather than acknowledging that both genders are capable of abusive behaviour. Often you get a sense of them having been written by someone who (as Girlgal put it) pastes their abuser's face onto every man they meet. Sees "red flags" everywhere they look.

 

That approach is bound to create a defensively angry response in anyone who secretly suspects elements of their behaviour might be abusive - instead of encouraging them to own it and take some responsibility for trying to change it for the sake of their relationships. I have been through that so many times with my own father. To this day, if I'm visiting and I do something "wrong" (like walking on the newly mown grass, or parking in an inconvenient location) he's liable to throw a ludicrous wobbly that leaves me worrying about the likelihood of him having a heart attack that I've "driven him to" with my forgetfulness.

 

Because my mother always took an indulgent approach to his fits of rage, and this made him feel powerful, he's never been seriously inclined to address his temper problem. If he throws a rage at me over something stupid like, for instance, parking my car in an inconvenient place, I'll tell him he's over-reacting. Then he'll become further enraged, I'll react coldly and politely - and he loathes this because what he wants to see is fear, panic and apologies in response to his all-mightly rage. Not the kind of cold disdain I show. Maybe my disdain is a form of abuse too? It's hard to figure out what the good, "correct" response is to those tantrums. It's hard not to feel an emotion in response to it - and my response is anger. Which comes out as coldness.

 

So he'll scream at me to get the **** out of his house and never come back. All kinds of threats about cutting me out of his will ensue in response to this triple crime of a) parking in an inconvenient place, and b) not being sufficiently filled with shame and guilt about it, and c) failing to respect his magnificent rage. So I'll get ready to leave, and then my mother will cry and he'll calm down and apologise. "I'm sorry I blew up like that....it's just the way I am, but you've got to appreciate how annoying it is when..."

 

You can probably tell from my post last night and from what I'm saying today that I visited my parents yesterday evening and it was not a fabulous success.

 

There are a million and one "mistakes" you can make around an abusive personality that that will result in them "flipping". A thousand ways in which they'll justify to themselves that it's okay to scream in your face in a manner that suggests they're about to get physically violent. If my father had had a knife in his hand last night, he'd have probably used it on me. "My client is devastated by his own actions, m'lord, but the court must appreciate that his deceased daughter provoked him heinously by parking in the wrong place. She knew or ought to have known the impact this would have on my client. She ought to have taken his violent temper into account and planned accordingly by compiling a list, prior to her visit, of potential triggers that she must avoid."

 

Abusive personalities subject you to that kind of ludicrous rage, and then they expect you to brush it all off as they do, with their not-good-enough explanations of "that's just the way I am. You know how I fly off the handle."

 

Someone speaks to me like that, I can't just brush it off and forget about it. I love my father, but when he behaves like that I dislike him. Feel very cold towards him. Don't want him hugging me as he calms down and tries to apologise. I generally get pretty positive feedback from people I know about being a considerate and polite person....but when my father yells at me like that, it's as though time has stood still. Suddenly I'm 13 again, I'm an irredeemably stupid and worthless person and I get this deep sense of "I'll never be happy, I'll never have any genuine value as a person."

 

I'm sure anyone who grew up in an abusive environment knows that feeling. How you can do all kinds of work on yourself and your thinking patterns....get counselling, be reassured by people who value who you are that you're an okay person, put everything into learning to stay calm under pressure. But ultimately you're only one furiously angry person's violent outburst away from that horrible, wobbly, tearful sensation that seems to take one thousand times as long to dissipate as the violent person's anger does.

 

That article I linked was from a women's organisation, but I thought it was very fair in that it examined different types of abusive behaviour that are common to both genders. The direct, potentially violent approach and the more indirect passive aggressive abuse. Both foster a sense of fear and mistrust....whether it's fear that the person will harm you, or fear that they'll harm themselves in order to show you what you've driven them to.

 

This article looks at some of the dynamics. It stresses that the pronoun "he" is only used for convenience and that women can also be prone to abusive behaviour. Key (for me) is the bit about abusive people having far more ability to control their tempers than they claim:

 

If you ask an abused woman, "can he stop when the phone rings or the police come to the door?" She will say "yes". Most often when the police show up, he is looking calm, cool and collected and she is the one who may look hysterical. If he were truly "out of control" he would not be able to stop himself when it is to his advantage to do so.

[jasminetea]

Taramere, thanks for sharing that.

 

Its admirable the way you control yourself when dealing with your father and I feel very sorry that you still have to go through the problems he inflicts. Do you have someone or someway to off load to to help manage those feelings of worthlessness?

 

My anger comes out as shouting, which although not physically dangerous is so damaging to others and my relationships with them. I desperately want to get a grip and that's why I start counselling on Friday but any info is very, very useful. I've waded through a few websites that Ronni W has given me, but I'm very keen for more and more information and guidance.

 

The paragraph you quote leaves me horrified - yes, I must have more control than I'm supposing when I'm angry, but I honestly have no idea how to exercise it. I really don't and I'm desperate.

[Taramere]

Taramere, thanks for sharing that.

 

Its admirable the way you control yourself when dealing with your father and I feel very sorry that you still have to go through the problems he inflicts. Do you have someone or someway to off load to to help manage those feelings of worthlessness?

 

My brother is my number one port of call, because he's the only one who truly understands.

 

My anger comes out as shouting, which although not physically dangerous is so damaging to others and my relationships with them. I desperately want to get a grip and that's why I start counselling on Friday but any info is very, very useful. I've waded through a few websites that Ronni W has given me, but I'm very keen for more and more information and guidance.

 

The paragraph you quote leaves me horrified - yes, I must have more control than I'm supposing when I'm angry, but I honestly have no idea how to exercise it. I really don't and I'm desperate.

 

I think that CBT therapy is great, because it investigates the "scripts" we carry around with us that trigger certain destructive behaviour. Scripts might be "I don't matter" or "I'm powerless and ineffective unless I lose my temper, and then everyone will respect me" (like the incredible hulk "don't make me angry...you wouldn't like me when I'm angry...").

 

My father told me that he tries to count to ten to control his temper, but it doesn't work. I'm not surprised. Counting to 10 is meaningless, I think, because it does nothing about the "this idiotic person is provoking me beyond reason, and it will take superhuman effort for me to control myself" script.

 

I asked him what prevented him from simply saying "you've parked your car in an awkward place there, can you move it?" He said that he lost it because I'm always doing stupid, thoughtless things like that, seem to live in a dreamworld etc etc, and he finds it frustrating that I've got a perfectly good brain but fail to use it. I don't have the type of temperament he would have hoped for in a daughter (eg he'd have been happier with the "executor" type personality). When I make stupid mistakes, it raises all that anger and frustration about how far away I am from being the ideal daughter. So instead of just responding to a minor issue appropriately, he unleashes all that frustration in a volcanic eruption of rage.

 

I think that "calming" techniques are useful in a physical sense (reading up on the Alexander technique might be helpful for you, to give you a tangible reference point when you start feeling the physical sensations of anger). But really, you have to get to the heart of the thinking patterns that help to fuel that anger. I'm convinced that a sense, or a fear, or powerlessness is often what lies at the root of it.

 

Something I've encountered in people who have screaming fits is that they'll sometimes accuse others who don't of being holier than thou, or passive aggressive. I think those insults relate to angry people feeling frustrated if they can't unbalance others, and the more frustrated they feel the angrier they get/the more of a need they feel to unbalance the other person. "See - now you've lost it. You're no better or stronger a person than I am really. I don't have a problem..."

 

I had a terrible temper until my mid teens. I think I made a concerted effort to change because I had a sibling who was experiencing the same problems with his temper. We went from fighting like cat and dog to supporting eachother throughout our teens and beyond in "not becoming like Dad". I'd read up on psychology and share the theories with my brother, my brother would encourage me to go along to Tae Kwon Do with him to help me feel less physically intimidated in the face of other people's rage.

 

I remember reading "The dance of anger" (by Harriet Lerner) years ago, and it was very helpful indeed. I think that reading online articles is too, but in reading a book you become more immersed in the whole business of learning about triggers, relating what you're reading to situations you've been in personally etc.

 

Try to get hold of a copy of The Dance of Anger, as it's a really good starting point...and will probably help you to identify issues you want to raise in counselling. As and when I think of other texts that are helpful, I'll either mention them in a thread (if you want to start an anger management thread up) or PM them to you.

[jasminetea]

Oh you know what, thank you so, so much. I'm really grateful for your help, I can't tell you how much. I'm also feeling real admiration for you and your brother and your management of what is such a needlessly hurtful situation.

 

So much of what you say is ringing huge bells with me, the need to unbalance is very relevant. Phew!

 

I've dabbled with CBT in the past, but never really got to grips with it, but I'm hoping for more success with the guidance from the counsellor.

 

Since starting to post and read this board with your's and other's very wise and beautifully articulated advise, I'm feeling more and more hopeful. Thank you so much. The book is ordered and I'm researching the Alexander technique.