Just Saying No

[wildsoul]

Hello Jilly Bean,

it is great that you exercited some great self control and say no, but I would put your situation in the "it's easy to say no" cathegory.

Agreed. There have been many discussions here about how many of us OW's have never ever got caught up with a MM before, not for lack of invitations. Like you, we've turned 'em down cold, until we met the one for who we made the grand exception. And typically that exception isn't because of how he looks in gym shorts.

 

Rather than moralizing to us about how you are the great and shining example we should aspire to, I think your story would have been much more relatable if you'd simply kept it about you, and not US. Why did you chose to frame it that way?

[Jilly Bean]

Wild - the thread is merely about the power of personal choice.

[Trialbyfire]

The timing of this thread is weird, in that I was thinking about affairs the last two days and was going to post a thread in the Infidelity forum about them, in general, and that there's life after divorce.

 

People are going to do whatever they want to do. Affairs are so sordid, when you grind down into it. There's so much deceit, over nothing. Why anyone would get involved in one, is beyond me since it's pure choice, choice that I wish people would own.

 

Overall, what bothers me the most, is that it used to bother me a great deal, for obvious reasons. Now, with life and love after divorce, it no longer bothers me. But for certain, I thank the powers that be, that I'm not involved with anyone who's ever been in an affair, whether from the perspective of cheater or OM.

 

The strange part of my post, is that it doesn't even come from the perspective of condemnation. It's just a sordid situation I honestly can't fathom, why people defend so vehemently.

[Jilly Bean]

It's just a sordid situation I honestly can't fathom, why people defend so vehemently.

 

Agreed. There is sometimes this perverse sense of triumph from the OM/OW who posts their story. It's completely foreign to me, too.

[wildsoul]

Agreed. There is sometimes this perverse sense of triumph from the OM/OW who posts their story. It's completely foreign to me, too.

Those are SO few and far between! I've been here for almost a year and could probably count on one hand the number of gloating OW/M's.

[NoIDidn't]

Agreed. There is sometimes this perverse sense of triumph from the OM/OW who posts their story. It's completely foreign to me, too.

 

Some do have a huge feeling of competition in it all. Notice to that the ones that feel this way, are frequently the ones that never thought a married guy would behave in that way towards them. They thought he was safe.

 

But they followed his lead into what basically becomes a big hidden competition with someone that doesn't even know they exist.

 

The sense of competition comes out immediately with statements like "I'm nothing like hisher W/H". They just don't see that its a setup.

[1Angel]

He knew what he was doing when he offered a ride and she took it.

 

You are absolutely right, Ariande.

[jj33]

I still dont get why this is even worthy of a post. So you got hit on and you said no. So? That happens to many many people every day. Are you supposed to get a gold star for that?

 

Are people who got involved with married men supposed to say oh JB could turn down a hot man we should exercise self control? If so its a very shallow analysis.

[boldjack]

33, Your like the person who gets a free meal, then complains about the food. If you don't like the thread, you are free to go elsewhere. Nobody's holding a gun to your head, forcing you to be here.

[OpenBook]

She's got just as much right to be here, and post her opinion, as you do boldjack.

[Adunaphel]

See, I just can't buy this, A.

 

Why would a single woman be fostering such a friendship with a married man to begin with?

 

It does not take "such a friendship" to realize that someone could be potentially interesting to you.

I think it is very possible to chat occasionally over the weather, or cars, or politics with someone and realize that you enjoy having small talk them or think they must be great people without giving a second thought to it because they are married and look innocuos.

Then you get to know that they are not in an happy marriage, and you start seeing them in a different light and considering them as actual members of the opposite sex.

After this engaging in personal conversations or inappropriate behaviour is a choice, but I think it is normal to get to like a married man without even realizing it.

At least until it has already happened to you one or a few times, in which case you should probably know better and learn to realize asap if a man "could potentially be of interest to you if he was single".

 

I think the mechanics of "I did not give him a thought until I learnt that he was single, I was sure he was married" is very similar to the mechanics of "I did not give him a thought until I learnt that he was unhappily married, I was sure he was in a happy marriage" (and to the mechanics of "I did not give him a thought until I learnt that he was not gay!"). You basically go from seeing someone as an asexuated being to a person of the opposite sex.

 

There's a line between being social and friendly in the workplace, or with neighbors, but we all know if the conversations start straying to the very personal, then you're asking for it.

Well, sure.

I guess that the first time something like it happens, the person could be sort of excused, though, because they have no first hand experience.

(I am referring to very personal but not sexual conversation - sexual conversations are more of a no brainer).

I think that getting into an emotional affair is much easier if it has never happened to you before.

I think that had you already been in a very similar situation you would have politely declined the lift home, too. Sometimes people just do not overthink.

 

I just think there should be some type of boundary established and maintained when dealing with opposite sex and married/single friendships.

Agreed. And people should be aware about what they are doing and honest about it. When I got into an affair I knew what I was doing, and I honestly cannot stand the "it just happened" attitude from people who keep crossing the same boundaries all over.

 

I chat with many married men in the gym, or the coffee shop - and our dialogue is confined to talking about cars, the weather, politics... All very top of the trees and superficial. If any conversation started to veer into the personal, then the wall goes up, and game over.

 

Either the wall goes up or you acknowledge that the wall *should* have gone up and for some reason you chose not to raise it.

[boldjack]

Openbook, You seem to have an issue with me. I don't know why, I've never been around you much, and can't think where I've done you wrong. I NEVER said that 33 didn't have the right to be here, or post, for that matter. If the only reason to come onto a thread is to criticize it, why bother? Yes, she has as many rights as I do, but if all she is going to do is b*t*h, and not add anything, why not go to a thread where you are more comfortable?

[Jilly Bean]

Adunaphel - I get your point, I do.

 

I guess my contention is still that the whole premise of "I just couldn't help myself", or, "it just happened", is a crock.

 

It takes many steps and layers before two people decide to consummate an affair - whether emotionally, or sexually.

 

There are many opportunities and crossroads in which someone can put on the brakes.

 

Like, in NoIDidnt's story - she was giving out the vibe to her neighbor, they were having some conversations about his marriage and child, and yet he wanted no part of it. So, HE was the one who exercised control. If he hadn't, who knows how much further it would have gone.

 

Or, BoldJack has a hot neighbor who keeps hitting on him. Does he eventually cave to it by encouraging her visits? Or, does he give her the polite brush off and it's over?

 

In my story, same thing. We have been friends for years, he's trained me many times, he has been to my home, we have seen each other socially (in groups). Yet, this is the first time he ever made a pass, or any kind of inappropriate move towards me. So, I then have the choice of how to handle it. Do I continue to flirt with it a bit? Or, do I just cut it off now.

 

That's my point here, really.

 

That getting to the point of an actual affair takes time and effort. ALL relationships take time and effort. There are MANY chances for either party to walk away before it becomes a full-blown situation.

 

BTW - good for you for admitting that you willingly knew what you were doing, rather than coping the, well, cop out. lol. I really respect that.

[LaGazelle]

Those are SO few and far between! I've been here for almost a year and could probably count on one hand the number of gloating OW/M's.

 

Gloating can only come when someone feels they have won the perceived competition. Most OW don't "win", therefore they can't gloat.

 

In any case, gloating isn't the only way of identifying whether the OW views the struggle over MM as a competition or not. Besides , the way it is usually done is rather more subtle - e.g "his wife is emotionally dependent on him otherwise she would leave" i.e "she is weak and incapable of being emotional independent and I am strong and independent. I am therefore a better catch." Or another one I saw in one thread recently ..."I bet he was thinking of me when he [gives his wife oral sex]". - i.e because she couldn't possibly be "good" enough to turn him on the way I can, he has to think of me in order to have sympathy sex with her". Or the classic - "He does not love his wife" - i.e "He loves me" , "He can't talk to his wife....etc

 

From what I've seen, those sorts of comments are not unusual on here and from many OW.

[gopher]

I'm not sure why any OW's would be so defensive about this. I guess it hits too close to home. Good for Jilly in this case, and not a big deal that she accepted a ride home or let him use the bathroom, because she KNEW she wasn't going down that path, so what's the harm?

[Trialbyfire]

I have to giggle a bit at how MM are being described, like a different, dangerous species!

 

This species is okay to befriend, y'know? As long as you keep yourself emotionally distant, it's all good. No one gets "overcome". Human beings have free will.

[Jilly Bean]

Those are SO few and far between! I've been here for almost a year and could probably count on one hand the number of gloating OW/M's.

 

Nope - I never said they gloat, because as LaGazelle pointed out, very few ever get the MM in the end.

 

It's more the subtleties that she mentioned. The, "oh, he bought me a better Christmas gift than her!" or, "he tells me she's a lousy mother, and I'm so much better with my kids", or, "he says I'm much better in bed"...that kind of competion that yields the perverse sense of triumph I mentioned.

[wildsoul]

Gloating can only come when someone feels they have won the perceived competition. Most OW don't "win", therefore they can't gloat.

You're entitled to your opinion, but I think your assessment is off-base.

 

While there are certainly some people, both OW/M and BS, who get caught up in competition, I think you're dead wrong on assuming that those who don't gloat are only doing so because they feel that they lost said competition.

 

I can only accurately speak for myself, but my observation after being on this board for almost a year, is that there are a great many more OW's here who do NOT want to be in a war with the BS. Sure, there are some crass OW's who flit in and out with some ugly comments about how they are better than the BS's. There are crass BS's too. But it's both a sweeping generalization and an insult to us regular posters to suggest that the only reason there is less gloating is because we're "losers."

[MistyK]

A person's decision to be involved with an MP isn't all beautifully simple as "just say no". Often I think A's start as the result of friendships that go too far - particularly in the case of two MP who start to vent to each other about their marital problems. Do they know they should be venting to another auidence? Probably, but I can personally attest to the feeling of being "safe" as my MM and I were both married when it started.

 

The point is that having a substatial pre-existing relationship (friendship, working relationship or whatever), espeically one you want to or must maintain, makes it more complicated than just brushing off the advances of the bag boy at the grocery store. I'm not saying it's right to accept such advances, I'm just suggesting that the original post was a massive oversimplification.

 

I'm glad you were able to resist JB, but can you at least bring yourself to admit that you were sending him some signals that you might be open to having closer relations with him? You've invited him to your house for parties - kind of odd for someone who is just your personal trainer, but ok; you accept a ride home from him (classic knight in shining armor crap), and then even you seemed to react to his request for bathroom usage with a knee-jerk, "that's odd", kind of response.

 

I guess what I'm saying is, good for you for doing the right thing, but it's kind of um....self-righteous...to accept/invite certain of married trainer's less obvious advances and then look down on everyone else who doesn't so simply "just say no".

[MistyK]

In any case, gloating isn't the only way of identifying whether the OW views the struggle over MM as a competition or not. Besides , the way it is usually done is rather more subtle - e.g "his wife is emotionally dependent on him otherwise she would leave" i.e "she is weak and incapable of being emotional independent and I am strong and independent. I am therefore a better catch." Or another one I saw in one thread recently ..."I bet he was thinking of me when he [gives his wife oral sex]". - i.e because she couldn't possibly be "good" enough to turn him on the way I can, he has to think of me in order to have sympathy sex with her". Or the classic - "He does not love his wife" - i.e "He loves me" , "He can't talk to his wife....etc

 

 

Lets not forget that some MM set up the it's a competition dynamic to keep everybody addicted. It's not that the OW has some great desire to compete with the W, especially knowing that are unlikely to "win" in any meaningful way. My MM constantly said to me and the BW "it's not a competition." But it obviously is - he'd tell me what a b*tch she is and then run back and tell BW that he came to me because she's such a b*tch. It's a set-up, pure and simple, and easy to fall into in the midst of A fog.

[wildsoul]

Nope - I never said they gloat...

Nope. I used the word "gloat" to describe what you called a "perverse sense of triumph." But isn't that what you meant? Did I misunderstand you?

 

What I think is getting lost here is that you seem to have such a low opinion of the OW's. I actually AGREE with you about the creepy posts from women who compare themselves with the BS in terms of "I'm prettier, younger, etc." That whole game is fraught with dysfunction. FWIW, I've been on the receiving end of that kind of female competition before too. I'm not saying it doesn't exist. What I am saying is that I don't think it's the norm here. As far as %'s of posts go, I think it's quite rare.

 

But while I'm adding in a counter-point to what seems a lopsided discussion, I'm not wanting to escalate defensiveness. My own situation is different. I was a HORRIBLE OW. Not cut out for it. Insisted my xMM be separated in order to date me and tried to make sure that we were above board. I'm not running for election as OW Ambassador! So I'll sit on my hands and stop trying to defend. But I hope perhaps I've struck a chord of reason with you and at least represented myself well.

[Jilly Bean]

A person's decision to be involved with an MP isn't all beautifully simple as "just say no". Often I think A's start as the result of friendships that go too far - particularly in the case of two MP who start to vent to each other about their marital problems. Do they know they should be venting to another auidence? Probably, but I can personally attest to the feeling of being "safe" as my MM and I were both married when it started.

 

The point is that having a substatial pre-existing relationship (friendship, working relationship or whatever), espeically one you want to or must maintain, makes it more complicated than just brushing off the advances of the bag boy at the grocery store. I'm not saying it's right to accept such advances, I'm just suggesting that the original post was a massive oversimplification.

 

I'm glad you were able to resist JB, but can you at least bring yourself to admit that you were sending him some signals that you might be open to having closer relations with him? You've invited him to your house for parties - kind of odd for someone who is just your personal trainer, but ok; you accept a ride home from him (classic knight in shining armor crap), and then even you seemed to react to his request for bathroom usage with a knee-jerk, "that's odd", kind of response.

 

I guess what I'm saying is, good for you for doing the right thing, but it's kind of um....self-righteous...to accept/invite certain of married trainer's less obvious advances and then look down on everyone else who doesn't so simply "just say no".

 

And don't you think with these "friendships that go too far" there were not AMPLE opportunities along the way to stop things from progressing?

 

And why does such a "substantial pre-existing relationship" exist in the first place with a member of the opposite sex when you're married? I've had plenty of professional

 

And nope. I didn't send him any signals that were different from any behavior I've had towards him in the last 5 years we've known each other, and that he never acted like this before. He came to ONE party that I had years ago, as many people from the gym also came by. It was a holiday open house, and he lives in my neighborhood, and we know the same neighbors. I have known him for years, so inviting him and his WIFE socially, as she came, too, was not unusual.

 

And I never said that his request to use the restroom was "odd", nor did I have any kind of "knee-jerk reaction" to it. lol. I just didn't want to be in that situation with ANY married man. As I mentioned earlier about my female neighbor offering her husband to come over and handyman for me. Just not where I wanted to go.

 

Lastly, I don't see how I "invited and accepted" any of his advances. Yep, perhaps I should have said no to the ride home, in retrospect, but it's not like I haven't driven others home from the gym, nor them me. At the time, I wasn't envisioning him needing to come inside, and my intent in accepting the ride wasn't to see what would happen. The situation wasn't what I expected, nor worked towards, which is why when he made the pass, he was shut down.

 

Misty - you said yourself that you felt it was inappropriate for you to be sharing your marital problems with a MM. But then you quickly followed it up with an excuse and rationalization.

 

It is between that space of knowing (or suspecting) what you are doing is wrong, and acting on it, that either of you could have exercised better judgment and not pursued things further.

[Jilly Bean]

BTW, I just want to add that I appreciate everyone keeping the conversation civil. I know this can be a very passionate topic, particularly for those that have been involved in this before.

 

I think what prompted my post, was not only what happened on WED, and yes, it was NOT the first time I was hit on by a MM, but it seems that so many of the posts on LS lately are surrounding infidelity, that it gave me pause to really consider this.

 

OK, continue on. lol

[LaGazelle]

Lets not forget that some MM set up the it's a competition dynamic to keep everybody addicted. It's not that the OW has some great desire to compete with the W, especially knowing that are unlikely to "win" in any meaningful way. My MM constantly said to me and the BW "it's not a competition." But it obviously is - he'd tell me what a b*tch she is and then run back and tell BW that he came to me because she's such a b*tch. It's a set-up, pure and simple, and easy to fall into in the midst of A fog.

 

Fair enough Misty. That may well be the case for you, but the quotes above are from recent posts, including your own threads (not saying the comment was yours).

 

However, in my own experience with the emails and chat scripts from the OW who pursued my H/intruded my relationship, my H did not set her up, quite the contrary. However, it didn't stop her viewing it as a competition. Based on the info she had from my H's friends and from trawling my Facebook pages, she realised she couldn't "compete" , on looks, personality, education or any of the other usu. indicators, so she resorted to competing on the basis that while he had to commit to/marry me, she didn't need any commitment and was therefore an easy catch - i.e I am demanding and she is not. she might not have been able to gloat, but she sure as hell was competing.

[Adunaphel]

In my story, same thing. We have been friends for years, he's trained me many times, he has been to my home, we have seen each other socially (in groups). Yet, this is the first time he ever made a pass, or any kind of inappropriate move towards me. So, I then have the choice of how to handle it. Do I continue to flirt with it a bit? Or, do I just cut it off now.

 

Aw, it must be tough to be in that position. I did not get that you were long time friends, I guess you must be royally upset at him for putting you in such an unconfortable spot. Have you already decided how to deal with the situation when you see each other again? Do you know his W? If you do it has been imo very selfish of him to make a move on you.

But then, again, they might be divorcing or be in an open relationship, which would put everything in a different perspective. It is unlikely but sometimes things are different than they appear, even if I guess he would have told you if this was the case.

 

That getting to the point of an actual affair takes time and effort. ALL relationships take time and effort. There are MANY chances for either party to walk away before it becomes a full-blown situation

.

 

Agreed (once again ) While I am a huge supporter of "sometimes it can happen to build affair-potential witout realizing it", and of "sometimes people are just desperate for some love", I believe that when many affairs are just starting to bloom most people are still lucid enough to make a knowing choice.

The cases where people are not thinking straight even at the beginning... well, they are truly scary.

I do not think there could be any positive outcome (for anyone...the OW, the WS, the BS) if someone were actually so clouded from the beginning that they could not even make choices bust just be dragged passively into the affair.

 

BTW - good for you for admitting that you willingly knew what you were doing, rather than coping the, well, cop out. lol. I really respect that.

 

Thank you.

The second (and hopefully last) time I have been in an affair we went straight away from casual, not-personal chatting to an emotional affair, and we both knew what we were doing. We basically had a "would you like to have an emotional affair with me?" conversation, which does sound weird - and *was* indeed weird, but at least was extremely honest in its own way because we threw away the whole "it just happened" pack of excuse cards.