Just Saying No

[OpenBook]

OpenBook - never did anyone say here that a MM isn't culpable for his actions regarding hitting on a woman.

 

No, they certainly haven't, have they? And that's my point. Nobody ever seems willing to point out anything at all in the MM's behavior. He basically gets a free pass. The message seems to be, "It's OK for him to hit on you [we're just going to ignore that he did that] - but it's not OK for you to say Yes." Seems unbalanced to me.

 

But she can say no. We as people can only control ourselves.

 

Yes, I've already acknowledged that (and am living it daily). Maybe you missed my post on that.

 

If more women say no, then there would be a lot less MM cheating.

 

Do you really think so? That hasn't been my observation or my experience. They just move on to the next potential target.

 

So you think that instead of calling-out these men on their bad behavior, you can just encourage all the other women out there to Just Say No, so that it will increase the chances of MM staying faithful to their W's?

 

Am I the only one who sees this logic as totally skewed??!?

[whichwayisup]

Do you really think so? That hasn't been my observation or my experience. They just move on to the next potential target.

 

If this is true, then it must also mean that the OW he picks isn't as special as she would like to be. How many OW feel a connection with their MM, feel the soulmate thing. If he is just going to up and find another OW because one said NO to him, then obviously he isn't looking for love, he's looking for an outlet, something on the side, not someone to fall inlove with and leave his wife and kids.

[OpenBook]

If this is true, then it must also mean that the OW he picks isn't as special as she would like to be. How many OW feel a connection with their MM, feel the soulmate thing. If he is just going to up and find another OW because one said NO to him, then obviously he isn't looking for love, he's looking for an outlet, something on the side, not someone to fall inlove with and leave his wife and kids.

 

Yup, I believe this is the intention of the vast majority of cheating MM out there (going into the A, anyway). They are looking for outside assurance that they are still irresistible to women, in spite of the fact that they're turning into old farts. And what better way to do that than to seduce a pretty girl (witness Jilly and her trainer)?

 

I do believe that some of them (although again, not the majority) actually do end up falling in love with the OW. But the A relationship is based on fantasy and not cold hard reality. The very nature of an A prevents its ability to last. So it's a nice setup for a MM (as long as he doesn't get caught), but it's totally bad news for the OW, and the W.

 

I do not understand why nobody is acknowledging or supporting my point - holding the MM accountable for his bad behavior, instead of asking everyone else to Just Say No.

[whichwayisup]

holding the MM accountable for his bad behavior, instead of asking everyone else to Just Say No.

 

Ofcourse he is accountable! But so is the person who says yes to him. Hate to use this analogy, but what about people who do drugs? If the drugs weren't available to them then they wouldn't do drugs.

 

Each has their part, and the MM is MOST accountable since he is the one who is married, but the OW or OM depending on who it is that is having the affair, is partially accountable as well.

 

Here's a prime example. Jon and Kate plus 8. This OW who is having an affair with Jon, KNOWS he is married and has 8 kids!! WTF is she doing? This guy is living his life in public, and is making stupid choices by cheating, but what about her? She KNOWS WHO this guy is and yet the fact that he is married, and twins and sexpulets seems to not matter. You think this woman is gonna marry this guy and be MOM to 8 kids? I think not. Anyway, just one example that I can think of.. Why on earth she would put herself in this situation is beyond me.

[OpenBook]

I don't know of any man who would stay faithful to a woman like Kate, with all the crap she dishes out to Jon.

[whichwayisup]

I know! She's nuts and has ruined the show..Anyway, I should start another thread in the watercooler about J&K&8 so this thread doesn't get hijacked..

 

But you see my point about the OW knowing full well this guy is married and has so many kids, yet she is helping herself and not saying NO to him. Same goes with Kate's bodyguard. Rumours are ringing that she is having an affair with him, so it isn't just him who is doing the cheating.

 

Even though she is a b*tch and all, it still doesn't justify him cheating on her, betraying his familly unit.

[Woggle]

MM who cheat have only themselves to blame because the OW does not put a gun to their head and force them into it. He is fully capable of saying no yet he doesn't. I have had a few chances to cheat and I said no everytime. That being said women could save themselves a whole lot of grief if they just stayed away from married men. Don't stick your hand in the pirahna tank and act surprised when it has bites marks all over it.

[whichwayisup]

And OW are to blame as well, they can just as easily say no, knowing this guy is married, they should run to the nearest exit. Noone is holding a gun to their head telling them to help this guy cheat on his wife. Each are responsible for their own choice and it's stupid to blame just one or the other. *NOTE* NOT calling anyone stupid, just the situation itself.

[xxxheartbrokenxxx]

A person's decision to be involved with an MP isn't all beautifully simple as "just say no". Often I think A's start as the result of friendships that go too far.

 

 

Agreed, and it was much easier for JB to turn this guy down due to the fact she just thinks he is 'hot' but this is as far as it goes. She does not love him. They have not developed a deep connection or friendship - when there is an existing friendship with the MP and feelings have developed it is much much harder to say no.

[Jilly Bean]

Yup, I believe this is the intention of the vast majority of cheating MM out there (going into the A, anyway). They are looking for outside assurance that they are still irresistible to women, in spite of the fact that they're turning into old farts. And what better way to do that than to seduce a pretty girl (witness Jilly and her trainer)?

 

I do believe that some of them (although again, not the majority) actually do end up falling in love with the OW. But the A relationship is based on fantasy and not cold hard reality. The very nature of an A prevents its ability to last. So it's a nice setup for a MM (as long as he doesn't get caught), but it's totally bad news for the OW, and the W.

 

I do not understand why nobody is acknowledging or supporting my point - holding the MM accountable for his bad behavior, instead of asking everyone else to Just Say No.

 

I agree that a MM isn't looking for true love when he starts an affair. He is looking for validation, excitement, sex, or even just an excuse to sabotage his life.

 

I think if one woman shuts him down, then he moves onto the next willing participant.

 

And NO ONE has said that the married person is not responsible, Open. But, no one is going to stop him from preying. All anyone can do is not be receptive to the advances and slim his pool of candidates.

 

 

 

Agreed, and it was much easier for JB to turn this guy down due to the fact she just thinks he is 'hot' but this is as far as it goes. She does not love him. They have not developed a deep connection or friendship - when there is an existing friendship with the MP and feelings have developed it is much much harder to say no.

 

Yes, but we've already established that it takes a lot of steps and time and effort to get from the point of meeting someone, to the point of an affair. A woman looking for a healthy relationship in her life with an available man, isn't out cultivating feelings for a married man.

[OpenBook]

And NO ONE has said that the married person is not responsible, Open. But, no one is going to stop him from preying.

 

And this is the part I don't understand. Why NOT try to stop them from preying? Why NOT at least call them out on it? Why can't we ask the BS's to rein-in their sleazoid CH's in order to slim OUR pool of MM candidates? Seems to me that is just as legitimate a request as asking potential OW's to Just Say No. By the same token, we should exert just as much effort to tell the preying MM's to Just Stop It!!!

 

To relate this to your own situation, Jilly, why didn't you JERK A KNOT in your trainer guy for even thinking you would be willing to enter an A with him? Why are you staying friends with him after such a sleazoid move?

[xxxheartbrokenxxx]

Yes, but we've already established that it takes a lot of steps and time and effort to get from the point of meeting someone, to the point of an affair. A woman looking for a healthy relationship in her life with an available man, isn't out cultivating feelings for a married man.

 

I know, I know but every situation is different and most people who end up involved with married people do not actually want that for themselves. No one in their right mind would actively seek out a married person!

 

Also it is not always easy to draw the line - the MM situation I was involved with started because he was a roommate and we quickly felt a connection and were close friends for well over a year before he made a move on me - even when he did I turned him down many times but he was very persistent, and I had such strong feelings for him that in the end I gave in and we kissed...

 

Short of moving out there was nothing else I could have done to prevent it. But looking back I do see that our friendship quickly became inappropriate but I was very lonely and vulnerable and he became my rock, made me feel secure. At the time I wouldnt have wanted to put a stop to our friendship, he made me very happy and I had never felt this way about anyone - the pull was just so strong.

 

In hindsight if I had just kept him at arms length from day one it would have saved me from so much pain but you cant turn the clock back unfortunately.

[fooled once]

OP - as it has been said time and time again - we are only responsible for OUR actions.

 

If ALL women STOP saying YES to a MM, then he has NO OTHER woman to try to get with. He may have to turn BI or GAY for a willing participant.

 

What is YOUR solution to stop a MM from preying? If he has NO prey, then his hunt is over.

 

I am not getting why you are so insistent that a MM isn't being held accountable? Is this just from your situation (and I apologize for not knowing what your situation is).

 

I 'dated' a MM for almost 2 years. Did he ever get what he deserved for pretying on me? Not that I am aware of -- he is still with his wife (I think - it has been - hhmmmm --- 12 or 13 years since I heard anything about him). His wife knew of the affair and she chose to stay with him. Nothing I can do about that. I can only control ME -- not what her actions were or if he moved onto someone else.

[Jilly Bean]

And this is the part I don't understand. Why NOT try to stop them from preying? Why NOT at least call them out on it? Why can't we ask the BS's to rein-in their sleazoid CH's in order to slim OUR pool of MM candidates? Seems to me that is just as legitimate a request as asking potential OW's to Just Say No. By the same token, we should exert just as much effort to tell the preying MM's to Just Stop It!!!

 

To relate this to your own situation, Jilly, why didn't you JERK A KNOT in your trainer guy for even thinking you would be willing to enter an A with him? Why are you staying friends with him after such a sleazoid move?

 

Open, I know this really frustrates you, and I get that, I really do. It seems unfair, in a way, that the person who is starting the whole mess, seems to skate by without reproach.

 

However, sadly, ultimately, we can ONLY control our own behavior.

 

I can't control what he did, nor can I stop him from doing it to someone else. I really do believe that once someone makes the decision to cheat, they will continue preying until they find someone willing. I really don't think that MM end up in affairs because they find a woman so enticing, that he's willing to ruin his life and marriage over her. I think the decision comes first, and then the person. Not the other way around.

 

I will say that after it happened, I did tell him that he really needs to think about what he's doing, and that pursuing this kind of thing with anyone is a really slippery slope.

 

He's a big boy. He will either reconsider trying to have an affair with someone, or not. But I do feel that no matter how much ranting or yelling or calling out I did, it wouldn't make a big difference in deterring him, if he really chooses to try this with another.

[Jilly Bean]

In hindsight if I had just kept him at arms length from day one it would have saved me from so much pain but you cant turn the clock back unfortunately.

 

Well, that's the point, hon. Looking back, you can see that there was a point in which you were able to make a conscious choice to NOT let things ramp up and progress.

[whichwayisup]

Why NOT at least call them out on it? Why can't we ask the BS's to rein-in their sleazoid CH's in order to slim OUR pool of MM candidates

 

How is this the BS's responsiblity? Especially when they don't know their spouse is doing this behind their backs?

[whichwayisup]

Seems to me that is just as legitimate a request as asking potential OW's to Just Say No. By the same token, we should exert just as much effort to tell the preying MM's to Just Stop It!!!

 

OR just not puruse. It isn't always the MM who pursues, there have been OW's who have knowingly gone after MM.

[OpenBook]

Open, I know this really frustrates you, and I get that, I really do. It seems unfair, in a way, that the person who is starting the whole mess, seems to skate by without reproach.

 

Ya think I'm that obvious?? Those B*STARDS.

 

However, sadly, ultimately, we can ONLY control our own behavior.

 

Again, YES I GOT THAT PART. And I agree.

 

I will say that after it happened, I did tell him that he really needs to think about what he's doing, and that pursuing this kind of thing with anyone is a really slippery slope.

 

Wow, that's a really mild & meek response. You coddled him, in other words. Great, that's just great. So the perp gets to walk away scot-free (and still in your good graces) and continue his happy hunting... while the OWs get vilified and preached at in this forum for the unforgivable sin of taking these yo-yo's seriously. "My W doesn't understand me", "We haven't had sex in YEARS" (some examples of what's been posted on this board)... ad infinitum, ad nauseum.

 

That's just great.

 

I can't control what he did, nor can I stop him from doing it to someone else. I really do believe that once someone makes the decision to cheat, they will continue preying until they find someone willing. I really don't think that MM end up in affairs because they find a woman so enticing, that he's willing to ruin his life and marriage over her. I think the decision comes first, and then the person. Not the other way around...

 

He's a big boy. He will either reconsider trying to have an affair with someone, or not. But I do feel that no matter how much ranting or yelling or calling out I did, it wouldn't make a big difference in deterring him, if he really chooses to try this with another.

 

Sure it won't make a big difference. He hasn't suffered any consequences whatsoever in hitting on you, even though he is well aware that YOU HAVE MET HIS WIFE. Doesn't that bother you?????

[OpenBook]

How is this the BS's responsiblity? Especially when they don't know their spouse is doing this behind their backs?

 

Well, Jilly is suggesting that other women turn down these MM's advances... thus making it OTHER WOMEN'S RESPONSIBILITY to preserve the pristine:rolleyes: state of somebody else's marriage. I'm merely counter-suggesting that the woman who's actually married to the guy - WHO TOOK LIFELONG VOWS to take care of him - also step up to the plate and take some responsibility as well.

 

Since nobody seems to be able to hold the MM accountable for HIS OWN actions, it seems rather presumptuous to depend on a population of complete strangers to preserve the sanctity of their faithfulness.

[Jilly Bean]

Wow, that's a really mild & meek response. You coddled him, in other words. Great, that's just great. So the perp gets to walk away scot-free (and still in your good graces) and continue his happy hunting...

 

Would you prefer that I castrated him on the spot?

 

He's not my responsibility, Open. *I* am my only responsibility.

[OpenBook]

Would you prefer that I castrated him on the spot?

 

Actually, yes. Seriously, if all women keep coddling these men (silently condoning their behavior), they will keep at it until, as you say, they find a willing participant.

 

Something like "You better PRAY I don't see your W again at the gym" might more effectively give him some pause about what he's doing??

 

He's not my responsibility, Open. *I* am my only responsibility.

 

So it's not your problem. Okay fine. Then why are you trying to make it OUR problem/OUR responsibility?

[Jilly Bean]

Actually, yes. Seriously, if all women keep coddling these men (silently condoning their behavior), they will keep at it until, as you say, they find a willing participant.

 

Something like "You better PRAY I don't see your W again at the gym" might more effectively give him some pause about what he's doing??

 

 

 

So it's not your problem. Okay fine. Then why are you trying to make it OUR problem/OUR responsibility?

 

Gimme a break. Calling him out for being a pig is NOT going to stop him. If you think the rejection from one woman stops a cheater, I'd have to say I really disagree with that.

 

And I never said the responsibility lied with anyone to stop a cheater. I said that I am only responsible for MY choices and MY actions. If you choose to involve yourself with a married man, then that is YOUR choice, and the outcome becomes YOUR responsibility.

[fooled once]

Open, I am guessing that you were involved with a MM who either stayed with his wife or moved onto someone else and you really want him to pay for it.

 

So -- did you make him pay? Did you out him to everyone? Did you castrate him?

 

I am just getting so much anger and bitterness from you and I hate that it is eating you up so much.

 

[whichwayisup]

Well, Jilly is suggesting that other women turn down these MM's advances... thus making it OTHER WOMEN'S RESPONSIBILITY to preserve the pristine state of somebody else's marriage. I'm merely counter-suggesting that the woman who's actually married to the guy - WHO TOOK LIFELONG VOWS to take care of him - also step up to the plate and take some responsibility as well.

 

But if he isn't telling his wife how he feels, or if he's unhappy, how is this HER fault? She is clueless about his devious behaviour by hitting on OW. Again, how is this her fault?

 

Each person is responsible for the problems occuring in the marriage, but that isn't a justifcation for either spouse to go and cheat.

[OpenBook]

But if he isn't telling his wife how he feels, or if he's unhappy, how is this HER fault? She is clueless about his devious behaviour by hitting on OW. Again, how is this her fault?

 

I never said it was her FAULT. I said it was her RESPONSIBILITY. It's what she signed up for when she married him. It's her H who's out there hitting on other women, for reasons only she and her H know. They're both responsible for their own M, not anyone else. For BOTH of them to leave the responsibility of a faithful M up to the "huddled masses" out there is ludicrous and reckless... not to mention a little nuts.

 

Each person is responsible for the problems occuring in the marriage, but that isn't a justifcation for either spouse to go and cheat.

 

I agree with you, it's not a justification. It's WRONG to cheat. Period. Has that stopped any of these MM from doing it anyway? No. The reality is, these MM will keep on doing it unless they have a compelling reason not to... whether it be his W finally paying attention to his needs in the M, or a potential OW jerking a knot in him (by "outing" him, or decking him, etc.), and/or the W jerking a knot in him. It's been my observation that these are the only things that get him to stop... something scared him straight... OR SOMEONE HELD HIM ACCOUNTABLE FOR HIS OWN ACTIONS.