Just Saying No

[wildsoul]

Lets not forget that some MM set up the it's a competition dynamic to keep everybody addicted. It's not that the OW has some great desire to compete with the W, especially knowing that are unlikely to "win" in any meaningful way. My MM constantly said to me and the BW "it's not a competition." But it obviously is - he'd tell me what a b*tch she is and then run back and tell BW that he came to me because she's such a b*tch. It's a set-up, pure and simple, and easy to fall into in the midst of A fog.

GREAT point, MK! It's super-annoying how the MP sometimes likes to get that cat fight going.

 

My ex has been a total douche on many occasions, but I will give him credit for never bad-mouthing his (alleged) STBXW to me. Early on, I did warn him that I wouldn't be an ear for him discussing his marital woes in that way. He never tried framing it that way. It was more about how he loved her, but wanted to divorce in a way that didn't devastate her. She engenders my empathy, not my sense of competition.

 

I wonder how much the MM's actively enjoy the "competition," even if the OW and BS try to refrain from it. I think I know the answer to that in the case of my narcissistic ex.

[Jilly Bean]

Aw, it must be tough to be in that position. I did not get that you were long time friends, I guess you must be royally upset at him for putting you in such an unconfortable spot. Have you already decided how to deal with the situation when you see each other again? Do you know his W? If you do it has been imo very selfish of him to make a move on you.

But then, again, they might be divorcing or be in an open relationship, which would put everything in a different perspective. It is unlikely but sometimes things are different than they appear, even if I guess he would have told you if this was the case.

 

.

 

Agreed (once again ) While I am a huge supporter of "sometimes it can happen to build affair-potential witout realizing it", and of "sometimes people are just desperate for some love", I believe that when many affairs are just starting to bloom most people are still lucid enough to make a knowing choice.

The cases where people are not thinking straight even at the beginning... well, they are truly scary.

I do not think there could be any positive outcome (for anyone...the OW, the WS, the BS) if someone were actually so clouded from the beginning that they could not even make choices bust just be dragged passively into the affair.

 

 

 

Thank you.

The second (and hopefully last) time I have been in an affair we went straight away from casual, not-personal chatting to an emotional affair, and we both knew what we were doing. We basically had a "would you like to have an emotional affair with me?" conversation, which does sound weird - and *was* indeed weird, but at least was extremely honest in its own way because we threw away the whole "it just happened" pack of excuse cards.

 

 

Well, we are very casual friends. It's not like we socialize frequently. I see him at the gym all the time, he trains me from time to time, and recently, I was dating a friend of his, which of course stepped up our interaction, because we had this guy in common as well.

 

I am going to treat him as I always did. I hope he doesn't weird out.

 

I know his wife yes, but not very well. Only as his spouse, really. Seen her in the gym a few times, and the time she came to my house, we didn't get to chat much. I *do* know the word on the street is that they are having problems. Ya think? lol

 

It sounds like you've really learned from your experiences, which is wonderful. You speak of your affairs with clarity, and are willing to call yourself out for it. Kudos again.

 

I still think there is that "defining" moment, as Donna mentioned above.

 

As I said earlier - it is in that space that someone can exert some control.

[NoIDidn't]

Like, in NoIDidnt's story - she was giving out the vibe to her neighbor, they were having some conversations about his marriage and child, and yet he wanted no part of it. So, HE was the one who exercised control. If he hadn't, who knows how much further it would have gone.

 

I thought you had misunderstood my post before, but now I see that you definitely did.

 

I said that I felt the attraction coming from HIM. When *I* started to notice it and respond by pulling back a little is when he pulled waaaaay back.

 

There was no need for me to embarrass him and tell him to back off. I understood what was happening. There was no "if he hadn't" because we BOTH pulled back to avoid anything anywhere close to an affair - emotional or otherwise.

 

Just wanted to clear this up. Its easy to misunderstand what someone said and then run with it creating a whole 'nother narrative that was never there to begin with.

[Jilly Bean]

I thought you had misunderstood my post before, but now I see that you definitely did.

 

I said that I felt the attraction coming from HIM. When *I* started to notice it and respond by pulling back a little is when he pulled waaaaay back.

 

There was no need for me to embarrass him and tell him to back off. I understood what was happening. There was no "if he hadn't" because we BOTH pulled back to avoid anything anywhere close to an affair - emotional or otherwise.

 

Just wanted to clear this up. Its easy to misunderstand what someone said and then run with it creating a whole 'nother narrative that was never there to begin with.

 

Oh, I'm sorry!

 

Still, it has the same end result. That one of you in the situation was smart enough to put the right distance on it, to send the message.

[NoIDidn't]

And don't you think with these "friendships that go too far" there were not AMPLE opportunities along the way to stop things from progressing?

 

And why does such a "substantial pre-existing relationship" exist in the first place with a member of the opposite sex when you're married? I've had plenty of professional

 

Jilly makes a great point here. There is MUCH research on this subject about how many boundaries (read: steps) are crossed LONG before the A actually starts and many justifications for getting there.

 

I read on one site that it was about four steps that each could have been avoided before the supposed fall into infidelity. It said that the people might actually not realize it, but it didn't absolve them of responsibility. It told them to have better boundaries next time.

 

My memory is not perfect on this, but these are the steps I remember:

 

1. exchanging contact information - the justification - its only for occasional contact, its not like we are planning to talk everyday

 

2. small talk turning personal - the justification - s/he's a friend now and I would do this for any friend

 

3. personal conversation turning into talk of mutual attraction, the "if I met you earlier" or "if I didn't let you get away the first time" talk - the justification - nothing wrong with being attracted to them, I'm not planning on acting on it (and there is nothing wrong with being attracted to someone but you have to truly shut it down to not go to the next step)

 

4. the first (secret) meeting (it might not be all that secret but the growing attraction is kept secret from an SO) - the justification - its just lunch, its just coffee, its just blah blah blah

 

5. repeated meetings where the sparks that fly are undeniable to anyone watching the pair.

 

Like I said, my recollection isn't perfect, but it went something like this. I may have missed an actual one or forgotten one that was important, but this is the gist of it.

[NoIDidn't]

Oh, I'm sorry!

 

Still, it has the same end result. That one of you in the situation was smart enough to put the right distance on it, to send the message.

 

No problem. You are right about the end result. Someone had to put on the brakes whether it was him or me, or both.

[Athena]

Yesterday, my extremely hot trainer gave me a ride home from the gym (I live about a mile away, so I walked up, hence no car).

 

We have known each other for years, and he is a pro body builder, so, suffice to say, he is not only physically magnificent looking, but also a total sweetheart. And very married.

 

When he dropped me off, he asked if he could use the restroom. Er, sure.

 

Afterwards, he came out to the kitchen, noticed the pool, and walked outside.

 

I followed him to the pool, and once outside, we were standing up, chatting for a few minutes about who knows what (nothing important - probably fitness), and then he leaned in to kiss me.

 

Ut, oh!

 

Now, again, I find him very attractive, and I love his personality. In another scenario, ie. he was SINGLE, I would have been all over it.

 

HOWEVER, HE IS MARRIED.

 

So, I politely declined the advance, and told him it was best to NOT complicate our friendship.

 

I thought about it later, because he really is very yummy, and then I thought to myself how I SO don't want to be "that person".

 

The point of all this, is that for all of the OW and OM who say they just couldn't help themselves, ah, BS on that.

 

There is a point in which all OW/OM can make a conscious decision and choice, exercise a little self-control and NOT involve themselves with a married person. See how I did it? It's really not that hard, and ultimately, will spare EVERYONE involved a lot of pain, heartache, disappointment, drama, and unhappiness.

 

Now, if he winds up single one day...

 

Jilly -- a very interesting first post, I am replying without having read further (although I will)... I absolutely agree that there is a LINE over which you should make sure you never cross... for you it was to not kiss him... for me it would have been not to get a ride home with him... for someone else it might be to politely decline him use of your bathroom (go back to the gym, matey-boy)...perhaps for someone else it may be not to have sex with him, but a kiss was okay... at which point is it crossing the boundaries?

 

My thoughts are: now that your hot trainer has fully shown you his intentions/desire for you/ willingness to move in on you, the thing to do is to either completely cut off all further contact with him, or at the very minimum, to completely spell it out that you have NO interest in him whatsoever, and never will (do not tell him, 'oh, but if you were ever single...')

That will just invite trouble.

 

And -- btw, I completely agree that when OM/OW/WS says they 'couldn't help it' -- it's bs... because they were going too far in overstepping healthy boundaries in that relationship -- and that is what caused them to move closer and closer to the illicit relationship.

I think that they are delusional in thinking no harm can come of this if I only keep it at X point -- they know they have a desire to move in, but 'con' themselves into allowing the overstepping of the boundaries by saying nothing more will happen, and then, "Whoops, I can't help it, I am in love!"

[Adunaphel]

Well, we are very casual friends. It's not like we socialize frequently. I see him at the gym all the time, he trains me from time to time, and recently, I was dating a friend of his, which of course stepped up our interaction, because we had this guy in common as well.

 

I am going to treat him as I always did. I hope he doesn't weird out.

 

I know his wife yes, but not very well. Only as his spouse, really. Seen her in the gym a few times, and the time she came to my house, we didn't get to chat much. I *do* know the word on the street is that they are having problems. Ya think? lol

 

Treating him like you usually do sounds like a great idea, I hope the situation can go back to normal. BTW, I forgot to apologize for my early comment about your situation being one where saying no is easy... I had assumed he was a much more casual acquaintance, just a hot trainer and not a long time friendship.

 

It sounds like you've really learned from your experiences, which is wonderful. You speak of your affairs with clarity, and are willing to call yourself out for it. Kudos again.

 

Well.. I did not learn much, just that the more honest you are with yourself the more clearly you will see the situation, and that the more what you do is a choice, the more control you have over your feelings.

I actually am still in the affair, but since he got separated (even if his W and he are still living together) I am not sure whether I am his AP or his GF... not that the label matters much since he has proven not to be a cake eater and his W knows that he is seeing someone.

[Dexter Morgan]

Yesterday, my extremely hot trainer gave me a ride home from the gym (I live about a mile away, so I walked up, hence no car).

 

We have known each other for years, and he is a pro body builder, so, suffice to say, he is not only physically magnificent looking, but also a total sweetheart. And very married.

 

When he dropped me off, he asked if he could use the restroom. Er, sure.

 

Afterwards, he came out to the kitchen, noticed the pool, and walked outside.

 

I followed him to the pool, and once outside, we were standing up, chatting for a few minutes about who knows what (nothing important - probably fitness), and then he leaned in to kiss me.

 

well, there goes the "sweetheart" part.

 

 

Now, again, I find him very attractive, and I love his personality. In another scenario, ie. he was SINGLE, I would have been all over it.

 

HOWEVER, HE IS MARRIED.

 

So, I politely declined the advance, and told him it was best to NOT complicate our friendship.

 

 

good for you!!! well done

 

I like your political views, and was hoping after reading this I could still like ya for your relationship views....ya didn't dissapoint!

 

 

 

The point of all this, is that for all of the OW and OM who say they just couldn't help themselves, ah, BS on that.

 

exactly right!!!

 

but you have to remember, YOU are different from the ones that will say they couldn't help themselves. others are under the impression that they owe another person nothing and they are entitled to help themselves to someone elses spouse.

 

kudos to you Jilly!!!

[Athena]

You're right. I should have told him all of my toilets were broken, and could he possibly use the bush around the corner.

 

And excuses for WHAT? lol. Perhaps you didn't read the whole story, but nothing happened and I turned him DOWN.

 

Reread it.

 

Hot Gym MM will probably Try Again with you...

[fooled once]

I thought this was a great post!

 

I truly believe we CHOOSE to act on situations - they just don't fall on you.

 

The point of all this, is that for all of the OW and OM who say they just couldn't help themselves, ah, BS on that.

 

*clapping*

 

I could not agree more!!!

[Athena]

I DO get what you're saying, and I DO think a lot of women test situations with married men. This, however, wasn't one of them, because if you knew me better, you'd know I'm pretty in charge of my sexuality, and if I felt like shagging him, I would have.

 

It wasn't you (but you coulda have suspected/anticipated a move on his part and nipped it in the bud)-- MM was the one making up an excuse to make the opportunity for that lean-in kiss... he knew what he was doing, setting up coming in to use the bathroom... after all, you live 1 mile away from the gym, so he could have used the toilet at the gym before he dropped you off... I don't buy it that he really needed to pee... that was a convenient excuse for getting his foot in the door.

It wouldn't have worked for him to say, can I come in for a shag?

[LaGazelle]

 

My ex has been a total douche on many occasions, but I will give him credit for never bad-mouthing his (alleged) STBXW to me. Early on, I did warn him that I wouldn't be an ear for him discussing his marital woes in that way. He never tried framing it that way. It was more about how he loved her, but wanted to divorce in a way that didn't devastate her. She engenders my empathy, not my sense of competition.

 

I wonder how much the MM's actively enjoy the "competition," even if the OW and BS try to refrain from it. I think I know the answer to that in the case of my narcissistic ex.

 

This is of course not just empathetic, it is smart. I am always amazed when I hear an OW "celebrating" the awful things their MM says about the wife.

 

When I have been the object of a MM's pursuit, that badmouthing was always one of the biggest of the red flags (the first was of course him being married!). I think it is bad enough to pursue other women while being married/attached, but to badmouth the woman who must have at the very least once upon a time been the object of his desires, is truly tacky and tasteless. I always just took it to mean, if I was vulnerable enough to actually get involved with such a man, I could one day be the subject of such badmouthing! No thanks!

[Jilly Bean]

well, there goes the "sweetheart" part.

 

I like your political views, and was hoping after reading this I could still like ya for your relationship views....ya didn't dissapoint!

 

but you have to remember, YOU are different from the ones that will say they couldn't help themselves. others are under the impression that they owe another person nothing and they are entitled to help themselves to someone elses spouse.

 

kudos to you Jilly!!!

 

LOL, Dex, and thanks. Right back 'atcha.

 

I really didn't post this to get a pat on the back, though. It more was to illustrate that there IS an alternative to getting sucked into an affair. That there are many steps to getting to the point of infidelity and it is not an immediate leap to getting there.

 

I'm just curious as to how someone really gets into these situations, which NEVER end well, particularly when there are so many chances to cut it off.

[OpenBook]

he knew what he was doing, setting up coming in to use the bathroom... after all, you live 1 mile away from the gym, so he could have used the toilet at the gym before he dropped you off... I don't buy it that he really needed to pee... that was a convenient excuse for getting his foot in the door.

 

Yeah, and I bet he peeked into your medicine cabinet.

[fooled once]

Another great point

 

That getting to the point of an actual affair takes time and effort. ALL relationships take time and effort. There are MANY chances for either party to walk away before it becomes a full-blown situation.

 

Men and women CAN be friends, even single and married people.

 

But it doesn't just happen --- you can and should stop from having an affair.

 

There are lines that shouldn't be crossed.

 

Jilly, IMHO, there was no harm in a FRIEND driving you home. Even a married friend. There is also no harm in allowing someone to pee in your toilet. I mean, really, what do you say to them "NO, I don't want you to hit on me" or "NO, use the bush or the gas station on the corner"? The person who just offered to drive you home you are suppose to say no to? That is silly IMHO.

 

People who get into a relationship with a married person does so voluntarily and willfully. They aren't forced or coerced. They do so with the intent.

 

You don't just "oopps" and have an affair.

 

And no, I am not a bitter betrayed spouse. I am a former OW.

[OpenBook]

But it doesn't just happen --- you can and should stop from having an affair.

 

There are lines that shouldn't be crossed.

 

No sh*t Sherlock. Tell that to all the MM out there - like Jilly's trainer -who cross those lines ALL THE TIME!!! What, it's A-OK for them to go around hitting on women, but the women are the ones who "can and should stop from having an affair"??!??!! It's always our responsibility to stop them - yet stay friends with them like you seem inclined to advise - but they get a free pass for their bad behavior??? WTF???

[Jilly Bean]

Yeah, and I bet he peeked into your medicine cabinet.

 

LOL. He used the guest bathroom, in which there are nothing in the drawers, but some spare TP under the vanity.

 

 

Jilly, IMHO, there was no harm in a FRIEND driving you home. Even a married friend. There is also no harm in allowing someone to pee in your toilet. I mean, really, what do you say to them "NO, I don't want you to hit on me" or "NO, use the bush or the gas station on the corner"? The person who just offered to drive you home you are suppose to say no to? That is silly IMHO.

 

People who get into a relationship with a married person does so voluntarily and willfully. They aren't forced or coerced. They do so with the intent.

 

You don't just "oopps" and have an affair.

 

And no, I am not a bitter betrayed spouse. I am a former OW.

 

Thank you!

 

Yes, exactly my point. After he went in for the kiss, I could have done any number of things:

 

1- slept with him, which may, or may not, have been a one off or the beginning of an affair. Either way, I'd still be contributing to him cheating on his wife.

2 - had him leave, but continue to keep in contact with him, test the waters, and have him over again.

3 - have him leave, tell him no thanks, and maintain a distant friendship.

 

Now, any of these would have required MORE effort on my part. And that means there is time for a lot of personal reflection on the choices I would make.

 

What, it's A-OK for them to go around hitting on women, but the women are the ones who "can and should stop from having an affair"??!??!! It's always our responsibility to stop them - yet stay friends with them like you seem inclined to advise - but they get a free pass for their bad behavior??? WTF???

 

Oh, I don't think anyone is saying that, Open.

 

I think if a married woman hits on a man, then the same rules would apply. She obviously isn't the one saying no, so he would have to be.

 

A few of the male posters on this thread commented that they have been hit on by married women, single women, and they didn't care if the guy was married or not.

 

It does work both ways.

[fooled once]

OpenBook, I am not understanding the hostility from your posts

 

No sh*t Sherlock. Tell that to all the MM out there - like Jilly's trainer -who cross those lines ALL THE TIME!!! What, it's A-OK for them to go around hitting on women, but the women are the ones who "can and should stop from having an affair"??!??!! It's always our responsibility to stop them - yet stay friends with them like you seem inclined to advise - but they get a free pass for their bad behavior??? WTF???

 

Is the "no sh*t Sherlock" really necessary?

 

How do you know Jilly's trainer crosses the line all the time?

 

Men are always going to hit on women. You can't stop that.

 

No more than you can stop women from hitting on me.

 

But my point was you CAN stop and CONTROL your response to ANY Married Person hitting on someone.

 

Just

 

Say

 

No

 

 

Who says you have to stay friends? Are you saying someone should be mean and nasty to the married person? Why? what good is that going to do?

 

Why does it have to be adversarial? Why can't it be handled just like Jilly handled it? He tried, she said no.

 

Same thing for if a married woman hit on a single guy. She can try; he just says no.

[OpenBook]

Didn't mean to come across as hostile to you personally, fooled once (sorry). Just expressing some frustration about the (general) moral preaching directed at the OW's here in this forum, while completely ignoring the blatant moral depravity of the MM's who pursue them. I'm raging against society, I suppose.

 

I guess I just need to succumb to history, be a long-suffering woman and bend over and meekly accept, as you say, that MM are just going to keep on hitting on other women, and everyone's going to keep turning a blind eye to it, and not hold them equally accountable.

 

(But don't count on it in THIS lifetime!)

[OpenBook]

And BTW, I get the point of this thread - Just Say No - and completely agree with it. And am living it. Every single wretched day of my life.

[Jilly Bean]

Just expressing some frustration about the (general) moral preaching directed at the OW's here in this forum, while completely ignoring the blatant moral depravity of the MM's who pursue them. I'm raging against society, I suppose.

 

I guess I just need to succumb to history, be a long-suffering woman and bend over and meekly accept, as you say, that MM are just going to keep on hitting on other women, and everyone's going to keep turning a blind eye to it, and not hold them equally accountable.

 

Oh, I don't think anyone here is excusing a married person who pursues an affair. Not at all. I think both sides are just as culpable. It does take two...

 

But, this thread is about personal choice and how we all can just say no at any point during the process.

 

Ultimately, I can't control how my trainer (or anyone else) behaves, I can only control how I behave.

[boldjack]

Actually Jill, for an affair, it takes 3. You are so right about the self-control issue. My neighbor has none, I have plenty, so "it", doesn't happen;) Openbook, I'm sorry that you were sh*t on by the MM, but you should know that we CAN change. I used to be a serial cheater, but haven't done anything like that in many years.

[Jilly Bean]

Actually Jill, for an affair, it takes 3.

 

? Explain.

[fooled once]

I get that it takes 3

 

For it to be an affair, someone has to be married.

 

So there is the 'non' married person

 

The person married who is cheating.

 

The spouse who is married to the cheater.

 

OpenBook - never did anyone say here that a MM isn't culpable for his actions regarding hitting on a woman. But she can say no. We as people can only control ourselves.

 

If more women say no, then there would be a lot less MM cheating.