OpenBook Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 Open, I am guessing that you were involved with a MM who either stayed with his wife or moved onto someone else and you really want him to pay for it. So -- did you make him pay? Did you out him to everyone? Did you castrate him? I was involved with an MM who broke my heart, about 20 years ago. I can't even remember his face now. And I haven't been involved with any other MM's since... even though I've been sorely tempted. And actually, that's a good point - no, I didn't make him pay for it. So what am I chapping Jilly's @ss for, when I didn't do it myself? Sorry Jilly. I'm just so damn tired of women (whether they're the OW or the BS) always taking the heat for a man's bad behavior. Unfortunately, though, it seems to be the only way we can co-exist with men, is for US to take responsibility for THEIR behavior... since they're obviously unable to do it themselves. The logic still defies me though. [OpenBook shudders] God am I glad I'm single. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Jilly Bean Posted June 21, 2009 Author Share Posted June 21, 2009 I was involved with an MM who broke my heart, about 20 years ago. I can't even remember his face now. And I haven't been involved with any other MM's since... even though I've been sorely tempted. And actually, that's a good point - no, I didn't make him pay for it. So what am I chapping Jilly's @ss for, when I didn't do it myself? Sorry Jilly. I'm just so damn tired of women (whether they're the OW or the BS) always taking the heat for a man's bad behavior. Unfortunately, though, it seems to be the only way we can co-exist with men, is for US to take responsibility for THEIR behavior... since they're obviously unable to do it themselves. The logic still defies me though. [OpenBook shudders] God am I glad I'm single. Actually, your logic defies me. I don't think anyone has EVER said that a cheating person is absolved of responsibility for their actions. I also don't think anyone said that a spouse is responsible for making sure her spouse doesn't cheat. And I certainly don't think that all men are cheats and can't control themselves. lol I think you still miss the point of all of this, Open, and maybe it's because you feel YOU made a bad decision 20 years ago, and don't want to admit that. But we ALL have personal choice in life. A married person who cheats does, as does an OW who agrees to partake of an affair, OR, the person who REFUSES an affair. All exercise free will and personal choice. If a man cheats - HE has made that personal choice to do so. Just as much as the OW who CHOOSES to have the affair with him. No one should, or can, take responsibility for anyone else's actions, and I think you still fail to get this. An OW isn't responsible for a married man cheating. She's responsible for HER cheating with a married man. YOU weren't responsible for making sure that your MM didn't cheat. That was HIS decision and choice. But, you were certainly capable of making sure he didn't cheat WITH YOU. THAT was your personal choice to make as well. Link to post Share on other sites
OpenBook Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 Actually, your logic defies me. I don't think anyone has EVER said that a cheating person is absolved of responsibility for their actions. No, but your reaction to your trainer MM has certainly absolved him of all responsibility for his action toward you, hasn't it? He suffered no adverse consequences from it. You and he are still friends. His W doesn't know (I'm assuming) that he made the attempt to get romantic with you. He's completely free to move on to the next target. No harm, no foul. Effectively he IS absolved of responsibility for his actions. I also don't think anyone said that a spouse is responsible for making sure her spouse doesn't cheat. I said it. And I believe it. That's what you (the general "you") sign up for when you marry someone. If they cheat on you, it's up to YOU to put your foot down and stop the behavior. It (and the marriage) is not anyone else's problem but YOURS and your H's. And I certainly don't think that all men are cheats and can't control themselves. lol And I don't think that either. You're reaching here. This thread is about MMs who attempt to cheat, isn't it? That's exactly what I'm focusing on. I think you still miss the point of all of this, Open, and maybe it's because you feel YOU made a bad decision 20 years ago, and don't want to admit that. Again, you're reaching. I know full well that I made a bad decision all those years ago. I OWN it. It was a disastrous decision for ME. Not so much for HIM. But we ALL have personal choice in life. A married person who cheats does, as does an OW who agrees to partake of an affair, OR, the person who REFUSES an affair. All exercise free will and personal choice. If a man cheats - HE has made that personal choice to do so. Just as much as the OW who CHOOSES to have the affair with him. Completely agree with you here. For the umpteenth time, I get it!! I agree!! I'm LIVING it!! I don't think we're hearing each other at all, Jilly, and I don't understand why. Link to post Share on other sites
whichwayisup Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 I said it. And I believe it. That's what you (the general "you") sign up for when you marry someone. If they cheat on you, it's up to YOU to put your foot down and stop the behavior. It (and the marriage) is not anyone else's problem but YOURS and your H's. A person can't control another person, married or not. That's like a parent trying to rope in their teenager. Sure, they can try all they want, but at the end of the day that teen or MW/MM is gonna do whatever he/she pleases. Your theory would make more sense if the BS KNEW the behaviour of their spouse, flirting, making passes, cheating, whatever..Problem is, 9/10 THEY DO NOT KNOW ABOUT. (not shouting, that's emphasis.) Until that is, a D-Day happens. I do agree though that the marriage is no else's problem but the two that are married to eachother. Problem there is, when someone cheats on their spouse, the history is re-written, lies are told, truths are omitted, or greatly exaggerated, what the OW/OM is told sucks them in, and some (not all) feel 'involved' in the marriage, even though they aren't IN the marriage. What's Jilly supposed to do, call this guys wife and say, "Hey, just thought you'd like to know that your husband tried to kiss me. I said no ofcourse, but I think you need to rein him in and get control of what he does." Link to post Share on other sites
LaGazelle Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 Well, Jilly is suggesting that other women turn down these MM's advances... thus making it OTHER WOMEN'S RESPONSIBILITY to preserve the pristine:rolleyes: state of somebody else's marriage. I'm merely counter-suggesting that the woman who's actually married to the guy - WHO TOOK LIFELONG VOWS to take care of him - also step up to the plate and take some responsibility as well. Since nobody seems to be able to hold the MM accountable for HIS OWN actions, it seems rather presumptuous to depend on a population of complete strangers to preserve the sanctity of their faithfulness. You seem really angry about this and I understand your frustration. Perhaps it is the anger that is preventing you from seeing a key point which has been made over and over ....ALTHOUGH THERE MAY BE EXCEPTIONS, WIVES ARE NOT USUALLY AWARE THAT THEIR HUSBANDS ARE SEEKING OUT AFFAIRS. If they were, a dalliance with a 3rd party would no longer be affair, it would be part of an agreement to have an open marriage. Besides, even discounting my own experience, and just looking at OW posts here and the infidelity research available, OW are way way more culpable than many care to admit. Many try to deny a phenomenon which has been proven to be true: women pursue men who are attached because they find them more attractive by virtue of the fact that he has passed another woman's tests. Link to post Share on other sites
OpenBook Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 What's Jilly supposed to do, call this guys wife and say, "Hey, just thought you'd like to know that your husband tried to kiss me. I said no ofcourse, but I think you need to rein him in and get control of what he does." I've already made a suggestion about what Jilly should have done: point out to HIM in no uncertain terms about the fact that he's married. This is from post#127: Something like "You better PRAY I don't see your W again at the gym" might more effectively give him some pause about what he's doing?? Y'all are selectively reading what you want out of my posts. But I can't control your actions. Link to post Share on other sites
whichwayisup Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 But I can't control your actions. :laugh: I will have to go back and re-read that part, I've forgotten what was said.. Link to post Share on other sites
OpenBook Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 ALTHOUGH THERE MAY BE EXCEPTIONS, WIVES ARE NOT USUALLY AWARE THAT THEIR HUSBANDS ARE SEEKING OUT AFFAIRS. And why is that, I wonder? This sounds like a copout on the W's part. "Oh I had no idea." Yeah right. I don't buy it. There are SIGNS a H is cheating. I've seen countless articles (not to mention spam threads on this very site) about what these signs are. Maybe if W's paid more attention to what was going on with their H's and M's, there would be less cheating? Y'all can blame the OW - and hold her alone responsible for steering somebody else's marriage straight by "Just Saying No" - all you want. It doesn't change the fact that the MM and the BS bear the burden of their own marriage, and the responsibility for their own fidelity. That's what they signed up for when they got married. Link to post Share on other sites
LaGazelle Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 Actually, yes. Seriously, if all women keep coddling these men (silently condoning their behavior), they will keep at it until, as you say, they find a willing participant. Most wives don't condone a cheating hudband's behaviour. The number of disappointed, and hurt OW alone is testimony to that. There wouldn't be so many OW-in-despair stories if most wives didn't give an ultimatum, which more often than not results in the MM abandoning the OW and choosing to be with her/ trying to restore marital exclusivity . So it's not your problem. Okay fine. Then why are you trying to make it OUR problem/OUR responsibility? Well it should be your problem if for no other reason than that for the duration of the affair you will not be treated in the way that every woman should expect to be treated by a man that loves her. In addition, enduring the mistreatment is usually ultimately fruitless since the OW stands an extremely high chance of being rejected in favour of the wife at some point. Once an affair is discovered, the MM typically chooses his commitment to his wife over whatever he shares with the OW. In short, it is absolutely your business to save yourself an awful lot of anguish by taking ultimate responsbility and control for your wellbeing. Link to post Share on other sites
OpenBook Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 In short, it is absolutely your business to save yourself an awful lot of anguish by taking ultimate responsbility and control for your wellbeing. AGAIN - for the millionth time - I completely agree with this!! What I do NOT agree with, is the insinuation that Just Saying No is the responsibility of the OW in order to help MM stay faithful to their W's. It's absolutely ridiculous. What about the responsibility of the MM (and his BS, by virtue of her mutual responsibility to her own marriage to him) to NOT ASK IN THE FIRST PLACE???? Link to post Share on other sites
LaGazelle Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 And why is that, I wonder? This sounds like a copout on the W's part. "Oh I had no idea." Yeah right. I don't buy it. There are SIGNS a H is cheating. I've seen countless articles (not to mention spam threads on this very site) about what these signs are. Maybe if W's paid more attention to what was going on with their H's and M's, there would be less cheating? Y'all can blame the OW - and hold her alone responsible for steering somebody else's marriage straight by "Just Saying No" - all you want. It doesn't change the fact that the MM and the BS bear the burden of their own marriage, and the responsibility for their own fidelity. That's what they signed up for when they got married. Ok, well it's your view against all the evidence collected by infidelity experts/reserach over the years. Using your logic, one could also say the same for the huge number of OW here who say they don't see the signs that the MM has no intention of leaving their wife for them. And what about the OW who claim not to be aware the guy is married? Usually what you see here, are many OW supporting the delusion that they had absolutely no way of knowing. I have a friend who bought this line as an excuse from her MM: "Oh I can't go into the room in my house where my divorce papers are, because I will find it depressing". No one is holding OW alone responsible for infidelity. However, you have failed to see the point made so many times here, so I will not reiterate it. Link to post Share on other sites
LaGazelle Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 AGAIN - for the millionth time - I completely agree with this!! What I do NOT agree with, is the insinuation that Just Saying No is the responsibility of the OW in order to help MM stay faithful to their W's. It's absolutely ridiculous. What about the responsibility of the MM (and his BS, by virtue of her mutual responsibility to her own marriage to him) to NOT ASK IN THE FIRST PLACE???? Many here have already acknowledged that MM should not seek out affairs - there is no dispute about that at all! However, put simply, if party A asks party B a question (e.g MM ask OW to accept crumbs while he lives it up at home), which party would you expect to answer?!!!! In any case this view of men always being in the driving seat for starting relationships is total nonesense - women know their power. No one is saying it is the OW's resp to help MM stay faithful to their wives per se. We are saying it is the OW's resp to protect herself from a life of heartache!!!! Link to post Share on other sites
Author Jilly Bean Posted June 21, 2009 Author Share Posted June 21, 2009 AGAIN - for the millionth time - I completely agree with this!! What I do NOT agree with, is the insinuation that Just Saying No is the responsibility of the OW in order to help MM stay faithful to their W's. It's absolutely ridiculous. What about the responsibility of the MM (and his BS, by virtue of her mutual responsibility to her own marriage to him) to NOT ASK IN THE FIRST PLACE???? And for the umpteenth time, no one EVER said it was a potential OW's responsibility to keep a married man faithful to his wife. That is his responsibility alone. My responsibility, was in making the right decision for ME, which was NOT to engage in an affair with this man. I am not responsible for what happens NEXT in his marriage. I have purposely chosen NOT to be a part of that. If he decides to stop, fine, if he pursues another affair, well, not my worry or issue. All I know is that I stopped MYSELF from having an affair with him. Bottom line Open, no one is ever going to stop a married person from ATTEMPTING to cheat. Particularly by your suggestions that his wife take the reigns, or that a potential OW call him out or call his wife or whatever. It's not going to work, and it's not going to happen. BUT, if everyone potential OW a married man hits on for an affair says no, then no consummated affair, right? Your argument is like saying that we need to stop kiddie porn and drugs. Yes, all valid in theory. However, people will ALWAYS produce, channel and deal drugs, and sick people will always produce kiddie porn. The only true way to stop it, is to not BUY it. Same principle applies to affairs. The instigator will always exist in society. But, refusing to be a patron minimizes, and perhaps ultimately, would eliminate all options. No market, no sale. Link to post Share on other sites
LaGazelle Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 And for the umpteenth time, no one EVER said it was a potential OW's responsibility to keep a married man faithful to his wife. That is his responsibility alone. My responsibility, was in making the right decision for ME, which was NOT to engage in an affair with this man. I am not responsible for what happens NEXT in his marriage. I have purposely chosen NOT to be a part of that. If he decides to stop, fine, if he pursues another affair, well, not my worry or issue. All I know is that I stopped MYSELF from having an affair with him. Bottom line Open, no one is ever going to stop a married person from ATTEMPTING to cheat. Particularly by your suggestions that his wife take the reigns, or that a potential OW call him out or call his wife or whatever. It's not going to work, and it's not going to happen. BUT, if everyone potential OW a married man hits on for an affair says no, then no consummated affair, right? Your argument is like saying that we need to stop kiddie porn and drugs. Yes, all valid in theory. However, people will ALWAYS produce, channel and deal drugs, and sick people will always produce kiddie porn. The only true way to stop it, is to not BUY it. Same principle applies to affairs. The instigator will always exist in society. But, refusing to be a patron minimizes, and perhaps ultimately, would eliminate all options. No market, no sale. Well said Jilly. And well done for your choice btw! Cheers. Link to post Share on other sites
OWoman Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 Hey I got hit on my a seriously hot dude today too, and I turned him down. I think I should start a gloaty thread too. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Jilly Bean Posted June 21, 2009 Author Share Posted June 21, 2009 Well said Jilly. And well done for your choice btw! Cheers. Thank you, and thanks for your contributions to the thread. But, as I said earlier, I didn't post this for a pat on the back. I mean, we all get hit on by men all the time. And this certainly wasn't the first time a friend, or a married guy put the moves on me. The topic was on my mind, because there have been so many postings in the infidelity section lately, and it made me realize how much of the unhappiness really could have been avoided. Choice. Link to post Share on other sites
Ariadne Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 Choice. Well, I made the choice of being with a married guy.. And if he had said no, I would have tied him up to a tree and raped him. Yeah! Link to post Share on other sites
joyz Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 BUT, if everyone potential OW a married man hits on for an affair says no, then no consummated affair, right? No market, no sale. No, the prostitution market will skyrocket! Link to post Share on other sites
OpenBook Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 Hey I got hit on my a seriously hot dude today too, and I turned him down. I think I should start a gloaty thread too. :lmao: Actually, I was under the assumption that the intent of the thread was to preach the moral high ground to us lowly sinners. But you might be right, it may have been done to simply gloat. In that case, I should not have taken it so seriously. My mistake. Link to post Share on other sites
Hi.P.O'Crit Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 What's Jilly supposed to do, call this guys wife and say, "Hey, just thought you'd like to know that your husband tried to kiss me. I said no ofcourse, Yes. but I think you need to rein him in and get control of what he does." No. Why is it that if someone is involved with a MP the general response is to tell the BS but not tell of an attempt to cheat? Many here say the spouse is rarely aware of the infidelity. Well here is an opportunity to let a spouse know that their spouse is looking for a little on the side. Link to post Share on other sites
Hi.P.O'Crit Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 BUT, if everyone potential OW a married man hits on for an affair says no, then no consummated affair, right? And if every potential OW alerted the wife of the attempt the wife would be aware of the husbands intention. One potential could be dismissed, but several..? Link to post Share on other sites
fooled once Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 :lmao: Actually, I was under the assumption that the intent of the thread was to preach the moral high ground to us lowly sinners. But you might be right, it may have been done to simply gloat. In that case, I should not have taken it so seriously. My mistake. Hey I got hit on my a seriously hot dude today too, and I turned him down. I think I should start a gloaty thread too. This is so sad and so uncalled for. If you don't like the thread; ignore it. Don't post to just be mean. I think this thread hit too close to home for a few people. Link to post Share on other sites
Hi.P.O'Crit Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 fooled once, I like your sig "We teach others how to treat us." It's very appropriate for this thread. Can it be extended to general society? We (Each of us) teach others how to treat us (all of us). Link to post Share on other sites
OWoman Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 This is so sad and so uncalled for. If you don't like the thread; ignore it. Don't post to just be mean. I think this thread hit too close to home for a few people. Yep I think I should return the favour and post a similar thread on the Infidelity board, about how some due proposed to me and I turned him down, so BSs have only themselves to blame for landing up with a CS because if they'd "just said no" when s/he proposed in the first place, they wouldn't now be married to a cheater. Seems fair... Link to post Share on other sites
Ariadne Posted June 22, 2009 Share Posted June 22, 2009 Yep I think I should return the favour and post a similar thread on the Infidelity board, about how some due proposed to me and I turned him down, so BSs have only themselves to blame for landing up with a CS because if they'd "just said no" when s/he proposed in the first place, they wouldn't now be married to a cheater. Seems fair... Yeah.. And all the women who cheat with a MM should be stamped with a Scarlet letter and be stoned in public. (They didn't say no). And every suspicious activity by a MM, such as flirting etc, should be immediately reported to the wives, who certainly own these men. Link to post Share on other sites
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