Dexter Morgan Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 Dont know about w, cant speak for her. I assume she put up with it, since she knw of him twice traveling across the ocean with me, and 3 move outs... My status.... its done, I walked away, so much for "all of it" Link to post Share on other sites
Author Mino Posted June 24, 2009 Author Share Posted June 24, 2009 so much for "all of it" Again DEX, its not just about love at the end, there was a mental illness there. AND YES DEX, even though I decided to walk, I am still sure of all of his LOVE! Link to post Share on other sites
jj33 Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 Why the need to throw stones at someone else's situation? Why is it so hard for people to beleive that someone may have loved someone else? That sometimes people do stay married for reasons other than love? Its too bad people feel so threatened that they cant just stick to the question and have to turn every thread into a competition between the BS and the OP Link to post Share on other sites
Author Mino Posted June 24, 2009 Author Share Posted June 24, 2009 Why the need to throw stones at someone else's situation? Why is it so hard for people to beleive that someone may have loved someone else? That sometimes people do stay married for reasons other than love? Its too bad people feel so threatened that they cant just stick to the question and have to turn every thread into a competition between the BS and the OP Your right JJ33, I at these point dont know if they will stay married, but its not my business. I have things to do, get my house straight is priority, taxes (ugh) and most importand of all is getting MY LIFE moving forward again! Link to post Share on other sites
LaGazelle Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 Maybe in YOUR opinion, every cheating situation needs to culminate in an ending of the relationship. However, not everyone feels the same way. In fact, I would have to say that Mino (not trying to make you feel bad, Mino, but just using an example) put up with WAY more crap from her guy than a woman whose man had a ONS with a woman prior to marriage, even though it was during their relationship. It is how the cheater deals with the discovery of their infidelity that matters most to some. Apparently, Lagazelle falls into that category, and apparently her man took steps to make amends and correct his deficiencies to her satisfaction. Thanks Donna. I think this is the crux of the matter. My then fiance's recovery actions certainly made an enormous difference for me. He not only went to great lengths to get our relationship back on track, earn my forgiveness and gradually my trust, correct his flaws, and re-assess unhelpful "friendships" that encouraged and facilitated behaviours and world views that were detrimental to him, our relationship, and to women like the ONS who may cross his path. He also made sure that our new relationship, was an improved version of what was a great one to start with (prior to the ONS). It was no joyride, but we got there eventually. To satisfy myself that I was making a sensible decision, I pulled back (since we weren't yet married) to give myself thinking space (no more flying to his country when it was "my turn", no more accepting late night long distance phone calls when I should get my beauty sleep etc) before deciding if and how I want to continue investing in the relationship, let alone accept (again) his proposal for marriage. As a result of the turnaround, I married a much better man than I would've married had he not made a grave mistake that uncovered serious but hidden character flaws, learnt from it, improved himself and proved himself to me. He now knows that women, even those willing to settle for the "crumbs", are not opportunities to be exploited, used and abused by men. He now knows so much more including what it really means to have integrity, compassion, empathy, and respect for those who cross his path in whatever guise. (And, I know it's silly, but one of the bits of icing on the cake, is that I no longer face the prospect of enduring a lifetime with his 2 despicable "friends" of 20 years in the wings. Thanks to their involvement, they are, without a word of direct criticism from me GONE, GONE, GONE!!!!! ) Link to post Share on other sites
LaGazelle Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 Your right JJ33, I at these point dont know if they will stay married, but its not my business. I have things to do, get my house straight is priority, taxes (ugh) and most importand of all is getting MY LIFE moving forward again! Way to go Mino! I wish you all the very best with this! Link to post Share on other sites
LaGazelle Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 There are so many things wrong here that I'm not sure where to start. First, the idea that a BS who decides to stay and attempt to recover the marriage is "accepting crumbs".... this is a theme that I've heard often from both OW's and former BS who decide to leave. You have made assumptions that may be true for you, but are decidedly untrue for those of us who have recovered our marriages. We refuse to accept "crumbs". Once we find out about the affair it is over or we are gone. That isn't accepting "crumbs" that is demanding good treatment. Those of us who have recovered our marriages post-affairs do not ever again settle for less than... though we may have during the affair in ignorance - not knowing what was happening - after D-Day??? No, never again. Right on the money Silk! That was what I tried to explain before. Link to post Share on other sites
LaGazelle Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 And, the BW who forgives is a rare individual indeed. So what makes this woman different from the others who cannot forgive it? I think it lies in being able to see the 'big picture' regarding their life and the significance or insignificance of the affair. Even some long term affairs are insignificant to the party engaged in the affair. Reading stories of people who have had long term affairs, some state that they were in it for excitement because... quite simply... they are not monogamous individuals. I don't think that it can be necessarily construed as the OP having any real value simply because they are there for 'entertainment' purposes. Again, there are examples whereby the affair is based on genuine emotions and a genuine chemistry. Other times, it is merely an inexpensive alternative to using prostitutes to get the very same thing... with the added advantage of the excitement of having their ego stroked. So is it really a decision of CHOICE to be with the OW over the wife? With the wife being the obligation? I don't think so. I sort of see it like this... the wife is the beverage, the appetizer, the salad and the main course and the dessert. The OW can sometimes be simply the napkin. For MM whose OW was the napkin it is far easier to work to forgive the affair. For me, however, it was absolutely contingent upon my husband growing up and getting professional help. Which, by the way, is indicative of the fact that I believe he had to have a screw loose to want or need someone inferior to me for entertainment purposes. And, yes, I do believe she was inferior. She was a MW and personally (yes, I am entitled to my opinion) speaking see any MW or MM screwing around just for the sake of screwing broken and lost. Well deserving of my sympathies. It takes a tremendous capacity to exercise wisdom and avoid knee jerk reactions to problems in marriages even if the problem involves lying and cheating. Mino, I honestly believe that when you have something that has proven to be 'worth it' there is a tendency to exercise wisdom, rather than impetuous anger over drawing lines in the sand. I want to applaud LaGazelle for her integrity and balanced approach to life. Well said Gamine...even if you last line made me a bit embarassed!! I'm glad things are working out with your marriage recovery. Even though it is such a painful process, I share your view that the goal is a worthwhile one. All the best. Cheers! Link to post Share on other sites
LaGazelle Posted June 24, 2009 Share Posted June 24, 2009 Mino, many thanks for opening up and facilitating an interesting and worthwhile discussion. I learnt a lot from you and the others who have contributed. Cheers Link to post Share on other sites
Author Mino Posted June 24, 2009 Author Share Posted June 24, 2009 Mino, many thanks for opening up and facilitating an interesting and worthwhile discussion. I learnt a lot from you and the others who have contributed. Cheers Good Luck LaGazelle, it sounds like your situation was just a one time slip up. I do know forgiveness is important. You two sound like your on the right track, he has learn his boundries, and your R has become stronger. I wanted to also hear from the BS who has had muliple D-days, mulitipal move outs. Women who keeps forgiving , and hubby keeps repeating. Link to post Share on other sites
tami-chan Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 Other times the affairs are the equivalent of a MM getting sexual variety and additional attention. Some men use hookers for this very same purpose.LOL....you are making this statement because you want to diminish or minimize the relationship. I doubt that you truly believe that an affair is equal to using a prostitute. This is a sad statement from someone trying very hard to diminish the impact of an affair. OR maybe we have a different understanding of what an affair is-a one night stand is not an affair. In an affair, there are vested time, effort, money and EMOTIONS-canoodling with a hooker is just that...it's business. So statistically speaking, there are more MW cheating than there are MM.Your H's therapist is wrong. Studies show more men cheat than women-although the difference is not that wide. it is merely an inexpensive alternative to using prostitutes to get the very same thing... with the added advantage of the excitement of having their ego stroked.Oh is it inexpensive? How is that? have you done the Math on the time/effort/ money and emotions spent on the OW? Many Bs would say those very precious things were "stolen" from them and family. How did you come up with it being" inexpensive"? So is it really a decision of CHOICE to be with the OW over the wife? With the wife being the obligation? I don't think so.Why not? Do you think in the height of the affair, the husband went home because he still finds his wife exciting and engaging and all that good stuff? No, he went home because he is obligated to go home and because not keeping that obligation will cause him a lot. I sort of see it like this... the wife is the beverage, the appetizer, the salad and the main course and the dessert. The OW can sometimes be simply the napkin.Napkin? I thought the OWs were desserts (cake)? Geez, make up your mind,people! But I agree with you, BS MUST think of the OW as nothing more than a napkin for them to be able to forgive the H. They must minimize the depth of the relationship and the H must deny that the relationshp was anything but profound. I would rather forgive someone who had true feelings for the OW than someone who picks up random strangers and sleeps with them---a one night stand?????? Link to post Share on other sites
NoIDidn't Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 There are so many things wrong here that I'm not sure where to start. First, the idea that a BS who decides to stay and attempt to recover the marriage is "accepting crumbs".... this is a theme that I've heard often from both OW's and former BS who decide to leave. You have made assumptions that may be true for you, but are decidedly untrue for those of us who have recovered our marriages. We refuse to accept "crumbs". Once we find out about the affair it is over or we are gone. That isn't accepting "crumbs" that is demanding good treatment. Those of us who have recovered our marriages post-affairs do not ever again settle for less than... though we may have during the affair in ignorance - not knowing what was happening - after D-Day??? No, never again. Second, your statement about women accepting bad behavior and men not? I say that is absolute horsepucky . I see men every day being treated as if they are little better than lackeys by the women in their lives. It seems as if many women think they are so great that they can treat men as if they are somewhat lower than the slugs that crawl on the ground. It's my opinion that men accept FAR worse behavior from women than most women accept from men, and usually for far longer before they rebel and either leave or have an affair or something. I agree with this. And I can vouch for the second part as I know I treated my H with contempt for a period of YEARS before his EA. I didn't know I was treating him so badly until I spoke with my dad about it, looking for ways to change our interactions. Boy, it hit me like a ton of bricks. But this was years before the A. I would re-word the OP's question as why do SOME women accept this. I certainly don't. I don't put up with any disrespect once I am aware of it. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Mino Posted June 25, 2009 Author Share Posted June 25, 2009 Oh is it inexpensive? How is that? have you done the Math on the time/effort/ money and emotions spent on the OW? Many Bs would say those very precious things were "stolen" from them and family. How did you come up with it being" inexpensive" Your right on that one, thats opening whole other can of worms. When i think of all the gifts I got $1000 a pop, lol. The vacations, and then add in the expense of a apartment anothe 2000 a month. Where is that inexpensive? How do you do the cut & quote thing, i have not figured that out Link to post Share on other sites
Author Mino Posted June 25, 2009 Author Share Posted June 25, 2009 I agree with this. And I can vouch for the second part as I know I treated my H with contempt for a period of YEARS before his EA. I didn't know I was treating him so badly until I spoke with my dad about it, looking for ways to change our interactions. Boy, it hit me like a ton of bricks. But this was years before the A. I would re-word the OP's question as why do SOME women accept this. I certainly don't. I don't put up with any disrespect once I am aware of it. Hi NID, Thats just it, I see few women putting their foot down as soon as they discover A, You are RARE!! I want to know about the ones that forgive, forgive and forgive again and again..... There are good men out there who make a mistake once, maybe midlife crisis, or just got weak once. That is forgivable, but how does one do it over and over again. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Mino Posted June 25, 2009 Author Share Posted June 25, 2009 Tami chan, I just love reading your post! You are always direct, and make me laugh, no make me fall off my chair laugh:D Link to post Share on other sites
NoIDidn't Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 Hi NID, Thats just it, I see few women putting their foot down as soon as they discover A, You are RARE!! I want to know about the ones that forgive, forgive and forgive again and again..... There are good men out there who make a mistake once, maybe midlife crisis, or just got weak once. That is forgivable, but how does one do it over and over again. And I still see nothing wrong with the BSs that forgive and forgive and forgive again. That's the basis of relationships in general. I will not judge a woman for forgiving repeated infidelities. You'll never know the secrets or past of that envied and loving couple that makes it to 40 and 50+ years of marriage. And that couple that treats each other with contempt may have never been touched by infidelity. We have the choice to forgive and the choice to not forgive. I find it interesting that one can be too forgiving on the one hand, or called unforgiving if they don't want to forgive at all. Its really an individual thing. My H hasn't hit "midlife" yet. But depending on the circumstances and how he handles it (or if he gets caught), I will deal with it in the way that I see fit. It may be forgiveness again. It may be "Get out!" Who knows? Link to post Share on other sites
bentnotbroken Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 I think cheating is a deal breaker for only some women. For others it can be gambling, drinking, poor money management, in-law issues, friend issues, out of control hobbies. All these things have to be forgiven over and over again if a spouse(wife) finds them inexcusable and wants to keep trying. My father was an alcoholic, my mother forgave him for his out of control habit for over 35 years, until he stopped. It was worth it because the last years of his life were spent in a happy, loving, peaceful marriage. She told me that as many times as her children told her to leave, she knew that she loved him and wanted to be with him. Link to post Share on other sites
Dexter Morgan Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 Again DEX, its not just about love at the end, there was a mental illness there. AND YES DEX, even though I decided to walk, I am still sure of all of his LOVE! which brings me back to the original point....you weren't putting up with anything.....his wife was. Link to post Share on other sites
Dexter Morgan Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 Its too bad people feel so threatened that they cant just stick to the question and have to turn every thread into a competition between the BS and the OP I did stick to the question. She asserted that somehow, by including herself in the "we" part, that she put up with the MM. I point out that she felt she got the best of him while the wife got scraps. Therefore she wasn't putting up with anything. She smugly in earlier posts gloated about what she got over the wife. therefore her "question" of "what is wrong with US women" is insinuating that there was something wrong with her relationship with the other man. but her earlier posts contradict that. Link to post Share on other sites
Dexter Morgan Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 Hi NID, Thats just it, I see few women putting their foot down as soon as they discover A, You are RARE!! I want to know about the ones that forgive, forgive and forgive again and again..... There are good men out there who make a mistake once, maybe midlife crisis, or just got weak once. That is forgivable, but how does one do it over and over again. I wonder how many husbands would forgive if the wife said, "ok, I will forgive you.....but next week. First, I'm going to go out with friends this weekend and mow it over". And then she comes back and says, "hmmm...you cheated, I forgive you. And over the weekend, I got it out of my system and rode a stallion of a man with a hard body and looks to die for.....but, its over now.....so you can now forgive me". Whaddya think the husband's reaction/answer would be? Link to post Share on other sites
Dexter Morgan Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 And I still see nothing wrong with the BSs that forgive and forgive and forgive again. there is really no right or wrong to it. Its just what a BS is willing to put up with. That's the basis of relationships in general. the basis for relationships is cheating...forgiven, cheating again, forgiven...and cheating again? I will not judge a woman for forgiving repeated infidelities. nor would i, a woman or a man. my sympathies will always lie with them. But I would still attempt to slap some sense into them. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Mino Posted June 25, 2009 Author Share Posted June 25, 2009 I think cheating is a deal breaker for only some women. For others it can be gambling, drinking, poor money management, in-law issues, friend issues, out of control hobbies. All these things have to be forgiven over and over again if a spouse(wife) finds them inexcusable and wants to keep trying. My father was an alcoholic, my mother forgave him for his out of control habit for over 35 years, until he stopped. It was worth it because the last years of his life were spent in a happy, loving, peaceful marriage. She told me that as many times as her children told her to leave, she knew that she loved him and wanted to be with him.Nid, its worth going through 35 years of hell, so that in the end you can have 3 years of peace? I donno, that seems like a very high price to pay.. alcoholics are sure not easy to live with Link to post Share on other sites
Author Mino Posted June 25, 2009 Author Share Posted June 25, 2009 I feel it is best if you let all of it show; the good, the bad, and the ugly. At least THAT way, the other party can make an informed decision. If a guy wants to "put on his best behavior," he could easily suck a woman in until the ring is firmly in place and it's too late. He should just be who he is. If who he is is a guy who could screw up and have a ONS because he is in a LDR and wants to get laid, so be it. At least you know what you're getting if you still choose him.Wouldnt that be nice, but maybe nobody would be married then. lol Link to post Share on other sites
Author Mino Posted June 25, 2009 Author Share Posted June 25, 2009 I did stick to the question. She asserted that somehow, by including herself in the "we" part, that she put up with the MM. I point out that she felt she got the best of him while the wife got scraps. Therefore she wasn't putting up with anything. She smugly in earlier posts gloated about what she got over the wife. therefore her "question" of "what is wrong with US women" is insinuating that there was something wrong with her relationship with the other man. but her earlier posts contradict that. DEx, I did include myself in the question, I said We" didnt I. Just because we were in love, didnt exempt me from some of his issues. Link to post Share on other sites
Dexter Morgan Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 DEx, I did include myself in the question, I said We" didnt I. uh, ya....and I acknowledged that you tried to include yourself in it...that was the point... Just because we were in love, didnt exempt me from some of his issues. with the smug way you portrayed the affair and what you got over the wife, could have fooled me. Link to post Share on other sites
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