what is wrong with us women?

[Gamine]

If its not a big deal, then it is not a big deal...you hear that, BSs?

 

 

 

I was hellbent? lol...don't be so dramatic..I swear, for someone who is not a BS nor an AP, you sure spend a lot of time here. I do not think it is a contest, I was stating a fact.

 

besides, studies show an affair is always more than just about sex...it is almost always an emotional thing.

 

and trust you? lol..stay off that pipe, my dear grandma.

 

You do not even know what you are talking about anymore, first, you guys say an affair is a choice....ok,,,so there you go...whats there to argue about? MM chooses to be with the OW, for the time that they are together. Period.

 

They also use the lavatory. However, like some affairs one could hardly construe it as 'spending quality time' or a relationship. Clearly TC if one is in one place not another they are there by their own choosing. So, there is an accord concerning choice and logistics. However, one cannot reasonably construe one thing or the other from logistics or use of time when it concerns bodily functions. If an affair gives rise to more than just sex and involves emotions ... not just psychological attachments as a by product of the ego stroking so commonly serving as the addictive nature attributed to affairs... then I would tend to be in accord that those that are truly and authentically emotionally based are real. The rest is proven as a psychological attachment of the affair as an extension of the 'self'... not a genuine caring and love for the AP. The MP is attached, often times, to the way they feel or the way the interactions makes them feel, rather than a genuine attachment to the person... and a love for the person. It's more about self indulgence/gratification than it is love.

 

Unfortunately, the affairs that contain true emotions are far and few between. Read up on it. There are many insightful articles delving into the human psyche. My husband's psychologist (whose practice is most exclusively with infidelity) states that people in affairs will do and say whatever they need to in order to keep the ego stroking going. That is what they are chasing... the feeling... not the AP in actuality.

[Mino]

First of all, I appreciate Dex's posts. It feels good to read something that makes common sense for a change and doesn't pull any punches. And, I am in agreement that a MM or MW who uses an affair as a source of recreation is not something based in love. For those affairs that are really about love... I say... if it is coming from a good place there is no need for deceit. If there is true love, finances and other things should not and could not reasonably stand in the way of being together. And, it is not necessary to use or belittle devoted spouses. They are deserving of love and respect for the years where it was good... for the years spent living together through the ups and downs... and for the moments when their children were born. One need not remain in a marriage if there is love elsewhere, however there are ways of living one's life with integrity.

 

And it is the lack of integrity which is in dispute here. Not whether someone can love someone else. One can love many people during a lifetime, but if you want a clue on what to expect from a person... look how they treated the person before you. OW & OM should demand fair and good treatment for spouses of their AP because at some point in time this 'treatment' will apply to them.

 

So, if a relationship is real, affair based or not... then treat it with dignity and see to the responsibility in treating others fairly and decently. Living in integrity is important.

 

If an affair is simply a head game played by the MP with the AP, then the two of them should live in reality and call it like it is. Enough with the head games. Enough with the 'he loves me but he is being forced to stay married to the hag because she threatens him'. In most cases (chronologically) these married cheaters are adults. If being with the other person is something they are committed to then be adults and not children. Own up to one's life and live responsibly. If a person wants something... such as sex with other people outside of the marriage... then let's be real. The person they are married to should have something to say about it. If they aren't interested in living that way they should be given the truth from their mate... not lied to in an effort to cover up.

 

And, it defies logic for an OW to state that they are the apple of the man's eye if they are being played as a bootie call. If a MM is a predator without any conscience whatsoever it would be fairly easy for him to lay out whatever bull is required to get what he wants. And, if he plays his cards right he can get all of the action he wants without shelling out the cash for a prostitute.

 

I understand that wives, husbands, and AP's all have feelings. But for heaven's sake, if you are gong to have feelings at least let them resemble something rational. If a woman is okay with being there for sexual fun for a guy then fine... but enough with the nonsense that being there for fun constitutes anything of value or meaning... other than a horny dude getting his rocks off on you. Why, oh why... would anyone allow themselves to be used and manipulated? If a man wants to be with you it will always be more than a drive by.

 

And Mino, given that your former MM was psychiatrically unstable may be significant in formulating his basis for the affair along with everything that was said and done before, during and following its conclusion. Whatever you experienced was with a crazy person. How then do you believe you have any basis to understand a healthy affair relationship with a MP?

Hi Gamine, Great post, and I agree 100% with what you say. Best post I have read in a long time, and very direct to the point. I had to laugh when you "crazy person", I guess because I never really looked at him like that. I knew he was wired differntly, Hell we went to Ic together, and I read all the books, We thought we could get it "fixed" I think I mentioned before how I wondered why his w was cold, on a post a while back. BUT after living with him, I did also state I NOW understand her completely. I saw and expirenced the " (not healthy person) . I saw how he reacted to situations, I saw things I didnt really see before. I understood what she had gone through. We had hope for a "cure" Call me crazy for hoping, I was in denial, because, we were told there is no cure, but maybe more managable. I had to face reality at the end... Thanks again Gamie for a grat post!

[Mino]

not according to you... http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showthread.php?p=2216130#post2216130

 

It's very obvious that you were hurt in this relationship and I do hope you get better. Five years is a long time.

I did brake it off, 10 days later, he told me he needs to be with his Child. That was the issue.

[Mino]

not according to you... http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showthread.php?p=2216130#post2216130

 

It's very obvious that you were hurt in this relationship and I do hope you get better. Five years is a long time.

Of coarse I was hurt, but i was tired too.

[tami-chan]

They also use the lavatory. However, like some affairs one could hardly construe it as 'spending quality time' or a relationship. Clearly TC if one is in one place not another they are there by their own choosing. So, there is an accord concerning choice and logistics. However, one cannot reasonably construe one thing or the other from logistics or use of time when it concerns bodily functions. If an affair gives rise to more than just sex and involves emotions ... not just psychological attachments as a by product of the ego stroking so commonly serving as the addictive nature attributed to affairs... then I would tend to be in accord that those that are truly and authentically emotionally based are real. The rest is proven as a psychological attachment of the affair as an extension of the 'self'... not a genuine caring and love for the AP. The MP is attached, often times, to the way they feel or the way the interactions makes them feel, rather than a genuine attachment to the person... and a love for the person. It's more about self indulgence/gratification than it is love.

 

Unfortunately, the affairs that contain true emotions are far and few between. Read up on it. There are many insightful articles delving into the human psyche. My husband's psychologist (whose practice is most exclusively with infidelity) states that people in affairs will do and say whatever they need to in order to keep the ego stroking going. That is what they are chasing... the feeling... not the AP in actuality.

 

Sorry Gamine, your posts are too long to get into. But I schemed through it....and while I think your husband's psych is right that some WS are chasing the "feeling", many do really have feelings for the AP. It is not rocket science. The heart (or brain) has a huge capacity for all kinds of emotions...so it is not at all strange that a MM would have real, true feelings for the AP. I understand the reason why you want to minimiize the emotonal attachment, I do. But to some degree what you are saying is just rationalizing the act so as not to feel the impact of it. And if by doing so it makes it easier for you to deal with the affair then so be it...I am all for moving forward!

[Gamine]

Sorry Gamine, your posts are too long to get into. But I schemed through it....and while I think your husband's psych is right that some WS are chasing the "feeling", many do really have feelings for the AP. It is not rocket science. The heart (or brain) has a huge capacity for all kinds of emotions...so it is not at all strange that a MM would have real, true feelings for the AP. I understand the reason why you want to minimiize the emotonal attachment, I do. But to some degree what you are saying is just rationalizing the act so as not to feel the impact of it. And if by doing so it makes it easier for you to deal with the affair then so be it...I am all for moving forward!

 

 

Trust me, TC, if minimizing were my objective at all I would not have spent time educating myself on the subject. Minimizing is in fact the precise opposite of what my posts suggest. I don't know why you are clinging your concepts, but I suppose you have your own self directed reasons as well.

 

MP sometimes do have true love based emotions for their AP. However, the science and the stats suggest that the MAJORITY do not. It is more about a love affair with themselves. With the way the situation makes them feel.

 

If you want to make strong statements concerning the WHAT IS, educate yourself and argue a point based on information not conjecture.

[Gamine]

Hi Gamine, Great post, and I agree 100% with what you say. Best post I have read in a long time, and very direct to the point. I had to laugh when you "crazy person", I guess because I never really looked at him like that. I knew he was wired differntly, Hell we went to Ic together, and I read all the books, We thought we could get it "fixed" I think I mentioned before how I wondered why his w was cold, on a post a while back. BUT after living with him, I did also state I NOW understand her completely. I saw and expirenced the " (not healthy person) . I saw how he reacted to situations, I saw things I didnt really see before. I understood what she had gone through. We had hope for a "cure" Call me crazy for hoping, I was in denial, because, we were told there is no cure, but maybe more managable. I had to face reality at the end... Thanks again Gamie for a grat post!

 

 

It's amazing isn't it, Mino? When spending time with someone in a controlled environment they can conceal things about themselves but in time it becomes difficult, if not impossible, for them to hide their dysfunctional crap any longer. My heart goes out to you in a genuine way. I hate it when nice people become the glorified science experiments of other people. I hope that if you don't already have a really amazing man in your life that you will and all of the nonsense you've had to go through will disappear like smoke. Women have a tremendous capacity to love. As for me, I hope that either my husband can be that great guy... or that I have the wisdom to see that he cannot and find the one who makes my heart sing.

[Mino]

It's amazing isn't it, Mino? When spending time with someone in a controlled environment they can conceal things about themselves but in time it becomes difficult, if not impossible, for them to hide their dysfunctional crap any longer. My heart goes out to you in a genuine way. I hate it when nice people become the glorified science experiments of other people. I hope that if you don't already have a really amazing man in your life that you will and all of the nonsense you've had to go through will disappear like smoke. Women have a tremendous capacity to love. As for me, I hope that either my husband can be that great guy... or that I have the wisdom to see that he cannot and find the one who makes my heart sing.

Gamine, I knew he was different, we were getting help already for years, but it became worse as we were living together. I think for now, I will not date. I have no desire and I dont trust my judgements at this point anymore. I knew, no acholics, no drug users, no bad credit, no criminal record, hell I didnt think I had to get a phsyic evalution too:sick: I dont think it was a science expirement, we both believed that we could manage with care.

[sugarmomma]

Back to the original question. I think we (women) have to use better judgemnt when picking partners as opposed to going off our emotions. The old "i love him" but he treats me like shi*, cheats, lies, uses drugs, gambles, loves porn, prostitutes etc. Thinking we can make things be the way they once were when most times things will get worse. Cheating has always been a dealbreaker for me and now my tolerance level for BS is really low and I think "why buy the pig when all I need is a little sausage?"

 

Most women go into the frame of mind thinking "my love will make him see the light". When in reality we know that a person's core values/beliefs don't change easily unless jesus himself comes and takes a seat in the heart of a person.

 

I don't want to make excuses anymore for someone hurting me or blatantly disrespecting everything I have worked so hard to build. JM2C

[NoIDidn't]

Unfortunately, the affairs that contain true emotions are far and few between. Read up on it. There are many insightful articles delving into the human psyche. My husband's psychologist (whose practice is most exclusively with infidelity) states that people in affairs will do and say whatever they need to in order to keep the ego stroking going. That is what they are chasing... the feeling... not the AP in actuality.

 

You do know that this view is not accepted on this board, right? LOL.

 

Seriously, there is only one thing missing from your analysis: the fact that the AP is chasing the feelings too.

 

The AP loves how the MP makes them feel like they are better than their BS. This is the reason for all the ridiculous posts that demean the spouse while glorifying the AP. The APs feelings are based on the lies that the MP tells them and they respond positively too.

 

This is also one of the reasons that MPs are able to throw the AP under the bus in some cases. The MP watches a sincere glee from the AP when they badmouth their BS, and its not attractive.

 

Both are chasing the way they feel. Trying to recapture something they either feel they lost over the years, or something they don't think they've ever truly felt.

[Mino]

Back to the original question. I think we (women) have to use better judgemnt when picking partners as opposed to going off our emotions. The old "i love him" but he treats me like shi*, cheats, lies, uses drugs, gambles, loves porn, prostitutes etc. Thinking we can make things be the way they once were when most times things will get worse. Cheating has always been a dealbreaker for me and now my tolerance level for BS is really low and I think "why buy the pig when all I need is a little sausage?"

 

Most women go into the frame of mind thinking "my love will make him see the light". When in reality we know that a person's core values/beliefs don't change easily unless jesus himself comes and takes a seat in the heart of a person.

 

I don't want to make excuses anymore for someone hurting me or blatantly disrespecting everything I have worked so hard to build. JM2C

You know I think both ow/bs/GF just get bamboozaled. Think about it, You meet someone, date casually, both put their best foot forward.Your not seeing "all" there is, cause they are hiding some of their flaws. Then whey you buy the package, ( meaning fall in love) you found out its a little different then what you thought you bought. I bet when BS goes to get married and they stand at the alter, and they are shown a cyrstal ball, and see a cheater, they would run back the the aile. I think OW would also run the other way if they knew the outcome. So I think its really the Womens View in general, that we think, they will, change, or we can fix them, heal them, fight their demons for them, that keeps BOTH OW and BS hanging on. And thats what I am getting to, no matter what side you stand on, we are only fooling ourselves.

[NoIDidn't]

You know I think both ow/bs/GF just get bamboozaled. Think about it, You meet someone, date casually, both put their best foot forward.Your not seeing "all" there is, cause they are hiding some of their flaws. Then whey you buy the package, ( meaning fall in love) you found out its a little different then what you thought you bought. I bet when BS goes to get married and they stand at the alter, and they are shown a cyrstal ball, and see a cheater, they would run back the the aile. I think OW would also run the other way if they knew the outcome. So I think its really the Womens View in general, that we think, they will, change, or we can fix them, heal them, fight their demons for them, that keeps BOTH OW and BS hanging on. And thats what I am getting to, no matter what side you stand on, we are only fooling ourselves.

 

I agree about the crystal ball at the altar part, but not what I bolded.

 

Are you saying that the OW is right to get involved in someone's marriage if the outcome is favorable to her? That's twisted.

 

I don't think anyone truly knows their partner, male or female. But the implication, that I think I'm reading about the OW, just seems to say if the OW is confident that she can take the man from his marriage and have a successful R with him means its all A-OK is just wrong.

[tami-chan]

If you want to make strong statements concerning the WHAT IS, educate yourself and argue a point based on information not conjecture.

 

Wow, I must have hit a raw nerve because you have reduced yourself to insults. I do not have issues about SOME men having affairs because they are addicted to that "feeling", I said I agree, there are some men who do. I do have issue about you saying that what some WS have with some OWs is the same as being with a hooker or prostitute. You said that not because it was true you said that because you want to drive down a point to humiliate the OWs and minimize the "relationshp"....Let's see. If they were like hookers and prostitutes there won't be any need to "pursue" them, there won't be any need to get emotions entangled, not much effort to be with them either. Hookers are in the business of selling sex, the more sex they get, the more money. How is that the same as OWs?

 

I understand your husband is a screw-up and did not only have one act of infidelity. I understand that YOUR hasband was also a guy who did not think twice about ONS, (trying to pick a waitress up,etc)- so yes, in that case, your husband is one who didn't value the act of sex as something profound and meaningful and therefore might as well have been a hooker he picked. I understand this more than you can even imagine or care. I was a BS for more than a dozen years, and yes my husband is(was, I don't even know anymore, as I have checked out of the "marriage" long time ago) a serial cheater. You have said in one of your posts that you want to engage OWs because you want to understand (where the OWs presumably is coming from), you are lying, you are not here to understand or engage, you are here to humiliate and render them worthless.

[jj33]

Thank you Tami Chan. I said that months ago when the first "loving" thread was started and was met with derision. It was condescending pap meant to show us the error of our ways.

 

And I am still half convinced that Gamine and La Gazelle are alter egos. They showed up on the forums at the same time, both have french words for user names, same writing style and same point of view. Coincidence?

[fooled once]

you are lying, you are not here to understand or engage, you are here to humiliate and render them worthless.

 

 

Wow - is this type of post allowed? WOW

 

As for the Original Question -- I think many women think they can "fix" a man -- sure, they like them enough to begin to date and get serious with, but when they find flaws (and all human's have flaws) they think they can fix them or control them to do what they want.

[tami-chan]

 

Wow - is this type of post allowed? WOW

 

I don't see why not...I am calling her out on it. Are you offended? because there many offensive rhetoric from you know who that the OP/APs have tolerated. I don't see you getting offended by it.

 

"spread your legs"

"wet warm hole"

 

That's to quote a few. Sure, we can argue that those things are true---true to the wife too and all women who have experience sex. BUT hardly the kind of statement you would say in decent, polite conversation. The double standard and hypocrisy is staggering.

[fooled once]

What hypocricy?

 

I see things being said of other people (the OW, BS, WS, etc) but not TO people who are here.

 

That is my issue.

 

.I am calling her out on i

Calling her out? on what? You don't like her view? Don't read it then.

 

 

because there many offensive rhetoric from you know who that the OP/APs have tolerated. I don't see you getting offended by it.

I don't know who "you know who" is and I don't have hours to spend on this site to read every post. I was commenting on THIS post.

 

I am not sure what issue you have, but maybe you need to bring it up in private or to a moderator.

[Mino]

I agree about the crystal ball at the altar part, but not what I bolded.

 

Are you saying that the OW is right to get involved in someone's marriage if the outcome is favorable to her? That's twisted.

 

I don't think anyone truly knows their partner, male or female. But the implication, that I think I'm reading about the OW, just seems to say if the OW is confident that she can take the man from his marriage and have a successful R with him means its all A-OK is just wrong.

NID, I cannot speak for All ow, but I was told he was on his way out at the begining, and yes I know I should have waited. But HAD I known all, illness and all, I would NOT have gooten involved, I guess hindsight is 20/20.

[NoIDidn't]

You know I think both ow/bs/GF just get bamboozaled. Think about it, You meet someone, date casually, both put their best foot forward.Your not seeing "all" there is, cause they are hiding some of their flaws. Then whey you buy the package, ( meaning fall in love) you found out its a little different then what you thought you bought. I bet when BS goes to get married and they stand at the alter, and they are shown a cyrstal ball, and see a cheater, they would run back the the aile. I think OW would also run the other way if they knew the outcome. So I think its really the Womens View in general, that we think, they will, change, or we can fix them, heal them, fight their demons for them, that keeps BOTH OW and BS hanging on. And thats what I am getting to, no matter what side you stand on, we are only fooling ourselves.

 

Not to pick on you at all Mino. LOL. Just something else in this post stood out to me.

 

Sure, most relationships start this way, but its not just women that feel shocked when they meet the "real" person. Men are just as shocked.

 

When I see "cheater", I see "liar". I have more of an issue with lying than with attraction to someone else and acting on it. If I agreed to an open relationship, go for it. But I didn't. So to go for it would mean I was lied to at the altar.

 

I don't think its fair to go from the BW vs the OW to men vs women. The truth is the man was the same with both women, the OW just didn't see it at the time. I agree with Dexter, that the OW wasn't really putting up with anything in comparison to the one he made his vows with. The OW was getting the best of the MM at the time. But once he no longer had to put on his "best", she got what the BW was getting and realized it wasn't all that great.

 

I don't think the men bamboozle us. I think we bamboozle ourselves if we think we can heal, fix, or fight for anyone other than ourselves.

[Mino]

What hypocricy?

 

I see things being said of other people (the OW, BS, WS, etc) but not TO people who are here.

 

That is my issue.

 

Calling her out? on what? You don't like her view? Don't read it then.

 

 

I don't know who "you know who" is and I don't have hours to spend on this site to read every post. I was commenting on THIS post.

 

I am not sure what issue you have, but maybe you need to bring it up in private or to a moderator.

My thread was not intended to turn into a war zone, O/w b/s !!! Iwas trying to get answers from women about women, Its about what makes us tick, what makes us endure more then we should, what makes us stay, what keeps are hopes alive that OP will change. Again its not about who has a marriiage certificate, because at the end, what does THAT really mean? Its not about if and who the husband/ man loves. ITS WHY THE F*CK we (both sides PUT up WITH THIER SH*T!!!!! Damn, this is all out of wack, and it was going pretty good for a while without attacking each other. I wish Tony would close this thread, its a bit*ch session between BS and OW. An I was looking for support and knowlege., nothing more

[NoIDidn't]

NID, I cannot speak for All ow, but I was told he was on his way out at the begining, and yes I know I should have waited. But HAD I known all, illness and all, I would NOT have gooten involved, I guess hindsight is 20/20.

 

I wasn't speaking specifically of your situation. The part I bolded seemed twisted to me. Regardless of the reasons for it. No matter what he said, OW and Marriage shouldn't be in the same sentence in my logic. H and W, yes. OW or OM, no. They weren't at the altar, they shouldn't have a say in the marriage.

[Mino]

I wasn't speaking specifically of your situation. The part I bolded seemed twisted to me. Regardless of the reasons for it. No matter what he said' date=' OW and Marriage shouldn't be in the same sentence in my logic. H and W, yes. OW or OM, no. They weren't at the altar, they shouldn't have a say in the marriage.[/quote']Nid, I know that, You have always been very helpful, was not talking about you, sweetie.

[Mino]

Not to pick on you at all Mino. LOL. Just something else in this post stood out to me.

 

Sure, most relationships start this way, but its not just women that feel shocked when they meet the "real" person. Men are just as shocked.

 

When I see "cheater", I see "liar". I have more of an issue with lying than with attraction to someone else and acting on it. If I agreed to an open relationship, go for it. But I didn't. So to go for it would mean I was lied to at the altar.

 

I don't think its fair to go from the BW vs the OW to men vs women. The truth is the man was the same with both women, the OW just didn't see it at the time. I agree with Dexter, that the OW wasn't really putting up with anything in comparison to the one he made his vows with. The OW was getting the best of the MM at the time. But once he no longer had to put on his "best", she got what the BW was getting and realized it wasn't all that great.

 

I don't think the men bamboozle us. I think we bamboozle ourselves if we think we can heal, fix, or fight for anyone other than ourselves.

Well, ow get suckered in too, How many mm tell ow they are seperated, or on their way out of the marriage. Thats what I mean by bamboozled.Did the w see she had a cheater on her hands, I doubt it in most cases. Well I am sure ow though the Mm is honest too, and believed in what he said, People in general dont read between the lines, they trust what is said. As it turns out neither get what they were shown.

[NoIDidn't]

Well, ow get suckered in too, How many mm tell ow they are seperated, or on their way out of the marriage. Thats what I mean by bamboozled.Did the w see she had a cheater on her hands, I doubt it in most cases. Well I am sure ow though the Mm is honest too, and believed in what he said, People in general dont read between the lines, they trust what is said. As it turns out neither get what they were shown.

 

Some Ws do know that they have a cheater on their hands. Know it from day one. They might have been one of many women dating him while the only one that he agreed to marry.

 

I know of MANY of these marriages. Its always interesting to watch THOSE Ws' responses to infidelity. They run the gamut. Shock and dismay to indifference.

 

I know this sounds pious and holier than thou, but I'm really not that way. But I just wouldn't give a guy the time of day when he says his marriage is "complicated". Or that he is "still married but separated". That's just a boundary I decided long ago to never cross. Its not worth the trouble because if they aren't divorced, they can always go back to the marriage that was "complicated" and that's exactly what they say when they go back. "Its complicated".

[sugarmomma]

My thread was not intended to turn into a war zone, O/w b/s !!! Iwas trying to get answers from women about women, Its about what makes us tick, what makes us endure more then we should, what makes us stay, what keeps are hopes alive that OP will change. Again its not about who has a marriiage certificate, because at the end, what does THAT really mean? Its not about if and who the husband/ man loves. ITS WHY THE F*CK we (both sides PUT up WITH THIER SH*T!!!!! Damn, this is all out of wack, and it was going pretty good for a while without attacking each other. I wish Tony would close this thread, its a bit*ch session between BS and OW. An I was looking for support and knowlege., nothing more

 

I understood the premise of the thread but not surprised that it turned inot a fight.

 

Reminds me of the Maury show when the cheater comes on with two women and the women start to fight each other while he just sits there, smiling, when they should be kicking his azz to the curb.

 

Its really sad to see a woman in DENIAL!!! So sad.