what is wrong with us women?

[Gamine]

Wow, I must have hit a raw nerve because you have reduced yourself to insults. I do not have issues about SOME men having affairs because they are addicted to that "feeling", I said I agree, there are some men who do. I do have issue about you saying that what some WS have with some OWs is the same as being with a hooker or prostitute. You said that not because it was true you said that because you want to drive down a point to humiliate the OWs and minimize the "relationshp"....Let's see. If they were like hookers and prostitutes there won't be any need to "pursue" them, there won't be any need to get emotions entangled, not much effort to be with them either. Hookers are in the business of selling sex, the more sex they get, the more money. How is that the same as OWs?

 

I understand your husband is a screw-up and did not only have one act of infidelity. I understand that YOUR hasband was also a guy who did not think twice about ONS, (trying to pick a waitress up,etc)- so yes, in that case, your husband is one who didn't value the act of sex as something profound and meaningful and therefore might as well have been a hooker he picked. I understand this more than you can even imagine or care. I was a BS for more than a dozen years, and yes my husband is(was, I don't even know anymore, as I have checked out of the "marriage" long time ago) a serial cheater. You have said in one of your posts that you want to engage OWs because you want to understand (where the OWs presumably is coming from), you are lying, you are not here to understand or engage, you are here to humiliate and render them worthless.

 

 

Once again, I invite you to actually read my posts without skewing them into something they clearly are not. As previously stated, you should also put forth some effort to educating yourself as I have done. I have absolutely no interest in demeaning anyone. In every post I have stated there are two major camps in affairs. Camp #1: Use job for sex/psychological high; Camp #2: Actual love.

 

There is something in your posts that catches my attention. Your need to inject emotion into all affairs even in cases where no emotion exists. How is it that you glean from my posts things that no one else does? Because these attitudes are coming from you and not me. No one reads into my posts what you do. Perhaps your insistence that there must be emotion in an affair is the way you have been able to deal with the challenges pertaining to infidelity in your own life.

 

Some MM and MW get involved in affairs for purely self serving reasons. That is a fact. Whether it be for readily available sex, or a good dose of psychologically derived emotional highs.

 

Some MM and MW get involved in affairs for genuine love.

 

There is an actual irrefutable difference between psychologically based emotions (narcissisticly motivated) and true emotions extending from the heart. It is common knowledge that MP say all sorts of things in the throws of affairs only to later look back on it and deny it all. You can classify their denial as their desire to self protect, or you can clue yourself into the psychology of it which is very clear on this subject. Some narcissisticly enjoy the ego stroking and fall in love with idea of being loved, adored, and wanted. Period. It is a love affair with the self. Does it involved emotions? Well, they are psychologically derived emotions, are about oneself, and have nothing to do with genuine feelings for the AP. Others have real love affairs with true emotions for the AP.

 

I have no self serving interest in deluding myself over a thing, TC. In fact I am up front and am able to see things for what they are. If I were interested in deluding myself, I would be insistent just as you are ... that all affairs are emotional. Because, in reality, that is delusional. It is simply not the case. OW have posted quite vehemently throughout these forums discussing their SEX ONLY/NO EMOTION affairs. The 'I love you's' shared in some emotionless affairs has been the subject of many studies. Read up on them. For some reason you need to believe that all affairs involve emotions. Unfortunately, I once wore those rose colored glasses as well and had them promptly removed when I learned that people are actually capable of being cruel and using towards their AP for self serving reasons. Sad but true.

 

So I do see both sides.

 

My comment concerning certain MP using AP like hookers is an extension of the using mentality associated with the cheater. Using the AP as one would utilize a hooker. This is a statement regarding the mens rea (state of mind) of the cheater. This is absolutely NOT a statement I make in order to humiliate or degrade the AP. It is a statement that the MP may be doing so. And, for the record... I think it is sick and cruel.

[NoIDidn't]

For some reason you need to believe that all affairs involve emotions.

 

Oh boy, I could have a field day with this.

 

Many former BSs turned WSs got that way from believing that there was some sort of emotion involved or they wouldn't have been rejected/betrayed themselves.

 

I will say this, Gamine, many in affairs will discount the research into this as somehow biased or inaccurate as it suits them to do so. Very few people are ever able to admit that the affair is a form of self-love for BOTH participants. So its almost pointless to point it out.

[jasminetea]

. Very few people are ever able to admit that the affair is a form of self-love for BOTH participants.

 

Self-loathing, surely? At least for the OW.

 

Anyway, not important.

[silktricks]

Well, ow get suckered in too, How many mm tell ow they are seperated, or on their way out of the marriage. Thats what I mean by bamboozled.

 

 

Of course they do, though not all MM are liars it does appear that the vast majority are into the affair strictly for their own ego stroking as opposed to true love. I've been convinced from my own life that at least some affairs have very little to do with the OW and a great deal to do with anger between the husband and wife... the OW gets to be used as a weapon by the man who is pissed off... and that could be for MW and OM as well... I just don't know.

[norajane]

My thread was not intended to turn into a war zone, O/w b/s !!! Iwas trying to get answers from women about women, Its about what makes us tick, what makes us endure more then we should, what makes us stay, what keeps are hopes alive that OP will change. Again its not about who has a marriiage certificate, because at the end, what does THAT really mean? Its not about if and who the husband/ man loves. ITS WHY THE F*CK we (both sides PUT up WITH THIER SH*T!!!!! Damn, this is all out of wack, and it was going pretty good for a while without attacking each other. I wish Tony would close this thread, its a bit*ch session between BS and OW. An I was looking for support and knowlege., nothing more

 

Perhaps part of the answers you were seeking when starting this thread are that women put up with this stuff precisely because they would rather war against each other than place the blame squarely on the cheater for creating the situation in the first place. They are more likely to consider him a "good man" in a bad marriage to a bitch or a "good man" who was led astray by evil OW than to see him for what he truly is: a lying liar who lies and cheats.

[tami-chan]

Once again, I invite you to actually read my posts without skewing them into something they clearly are not. As previously stated, you should also put forth some effort to educating yourself as I have done. I have absolutely no interest in demeaning anyone. In every post I have stated there are two major camps in affairs. Camp #1: Use job for sex/psychological high; Camp #2: Actual love.

 

There is something in your posts that catches my attention. Your need to inject emotion into all affairs even in cases where no emotion exists. How is it that you glean from my posts things that no one else does? Because these attitudes are coming from you and not me. No one reads into my posts what you do. Perhaps your insistence that there must be emotion in an affair is the way you have been able to deal with the challenges pertaining to infidelity in your own life.

 

Some MM and MW get involved in affairs for purely self serving reasons. That is a fact. Whether it be for readily available sex, or a good dose of psychologically derived emotional highs.

 

Some MM and MW get involved in affairs for genuine love.

 

There is an actual irrefutable difference between psychologically based emotions (narcissisticly motivated) and true emotions extending from the heart. It is common knowledge that MP say all sorts of things in the throws of affairs only to later look back on it and deny it all. You can classify their denial as their desire to self protect, or you can clue yourself into the psychology of it which is very clear on this subject. Some narcissisticly enjoy the ego stroking and fall in love with idea of being loved, adored, and wanted. Period. It is a love affair with the self. Does it involved emotions? Well, they are psychologically derived emotions, are about oneself, and have nothing to do with genuine feelings for the AP. Others have real love affairs with true emotions for the AP.

 

I have no self serving interest in deluding myself over a thing, TC. In fact I am up front and am able to see things for what they are. If I were interested in deluding myself, I would be insistent just as you are ... that all affairs are emotional. Because, in reality, that is delusional. It is simply not the case. OW have posted quite vehemently throughout these forums discussing their SEX ONLY/NO EMOTION affairs. The 'I love you's' shared in some emotionless affairs has been the subject of many studies. Read up on them. For some reason you need to believe that all affairs involve emotions. Unfortunately, I once wore those rose colored glasses as well and had them promptly removed when I learned that people are actually capable of being cruel and using towards their AP for self serving reasons. Sad but true.

 

So I do see both sides.

 

My comment concerning certain MP using AP like hookers is an extension of the using mentality associated with the cheater. Using the AP as one would utilize a hooker. This is a statement regarding the mens rea (state of mind) of the cheater. This is absolutely NOT a statement I make in order to humiliate or degrade the AP. It is a statement that the MP may be doing so. And, for the record... I think it is sick and cruel.

 

Gamine you are refusing to see the ISSUE that I have, what you said above is just an excuse, at least to me it seems, because you know it is not right, not as a sweeping generalization,but maybe your H did just that, considering he had no qualms with ONS and picked up just anybody. I already said more than once , that YES YOUR H's PSYCH MD IS RIGHT about SOME reasons for ONS, and short or long term affairs. My issue is about YOU EQUATING the OW to hookers and prostitutes. You said you are not here to demean anybody , really? I miss that, because the very fact the you mentioned hooker in the same breath as OW IS DEMEANING. Maybe in your world, it isnt?

 

Many do not take issue on anything you post? well...I bet many do not read your posts because they are long and quite, frankly, tedious and preachy. I know I usually don't and the only reason I responded to YOUR post was because you had mentoned something I have posted even though you didn't quote me. And just to help you shorten your posts, you do not have to translate Latin to English to me. I get it. I speak 4 languages and can quite string Latin words.

 

And the infidelity in my own life? never once did I equate whatever my husband's feelings were to his OWs as the same as if he were using a hooker. And my own affair? Let's just say the xOM's divorce is final and he STILL wants to marry me despite me breaking up with him. The only "BS" in my particular scenario is my serial cheating husband...I don't really know how a serial cheater can also be a BS !

[Dexter Morgan]

Well, ow get suckered in too

 

I don't disagree that it happens. But you were a willing participant that knew the man was married.

[silktricks]

LOL...you don't think MM choosing to be with OW is a big deal? Tell that to the crying BSs here! Apparently,the OWs are special enough for the MMs to put their marriages on the line.... Apparently the MMs are special enough for the BS to lose sleep over, cry, go crazy...I know I went nuts....temporary, albeit...wish I could turn back the hands of time and tell my H to go fly a kite....but, what's done is done.

 

TC, in some cases, undoubted the OW is special - where the MM leaves his wife for her. In other cases probably it's not that the OW is special. Maybe it's simply that the MM is wanting the ego stroke of the OW, maybe it's that he's po'd at his wife, maybe it's that he's feeling that he missed out on something and wants to try something new.... maybe, maybe, maybe.... lot's of maybe reasons....

 

In the cases where the MM is desperate to go back to his wife and save his marriage, do you think the OW was special to him? That he was choosing to be with her during the affair because he loved her? But if he loved her, then why is it that at D-Day he is so willing to never speak to her again? Or in some cases, before D-Day, when he realizes that he's stepped in doo-doo and hopes to get it cleaned off his shoes before his wife discovers it stinking up their marriage?

 

Lot's of people here say that having an affair proves he doesn't love his wife (and I would agree that at the time the affair is on-going, any love is pretty far underground...) I would say that dropping someone like a hot potato would tend to prove that he doesn't love the OP... (at least if they stay dropped... and sometimes they don't.)

[fooled once]

Hey Gamine -- just so you know, *I* do read your posts, from start to finish, and I find what you write to be insiteful, helpful and knowledgeable. Please don't listen to what TC is saying and shorten your thoughts or whatever. She can learn to just skip your posts

[tami-chan]

TC, in some cases, undoubted the OW is special - where the MM leaves his wife for her. In other cases probably it's not that the OW is special. Maybe it's simply that the MM is wanting the ego stroke of the OW, maybe it's that he's po'd at his wife, maybe it's that he's feeling that he missed out on something and wants to try something new.... maybe, maybe, maybe.... lot's of maybe reasons....

 

In the cases where the MM is desperate to go back to his wife and save his marriage, do you think the OW was special to him? That he was choosing to be with her during the affair because he loved her? But if he loved her, then why is it that at D-Day he is so willing to never speak to her again? Or in some cases, before D-Day, when he realizes that he's stepped in doo-doo and hopes to get it cleaned off his shoes before his wife discovers it stinking up their marriage?

 

Lot's of people here say that having an affair proves he doesn't love his wife (and I would agree that at the time the affair is on-going, any love is pretty far underground...) I would say that dropping someone like a hot potato would tend to prove that he doesn't love the OP... (at least if they stay dropped... and sometimes they don't.)

 

Oh I agree with you, silktricks. I just don't agree to the obvious stab on the side of equating OWs to hookers-OWs that were or are in an affair. Obviously ONS are a different categroy, though, still not in the "hooker" category, although, of course there is always an exception. I was not talking about just the emotion "Love"...I was talking about whatever emotion the MM has for the OW, that is/are dismiss as nothing but....

 

I don't agree with the people who say that when one has an affair one does not love his/her spouse. That's too simplistic.

[tami-chan]

Hey Gamine -- just so you know, *I* do read your posts, from start to finish, and I find what you write to be insiteful, helpful and knowledgeable. Please don't listen to what TC is saying and shorten your thoughts or whatever. She can learn to just skip your posts

 

LOL:D...thanks, fool. But Gamine already knows that, I actually told her myself that I don't usually read her posts, unless it is a response to mine...but thanks for telling her what to do ( or not to do)-I am tired of having to read her posts. BTW, do you think she can't think for herself that you have to tell her what not to do?

[Gamine]

Oh I agree with you, silktricks. I just don't agree to the obvious stab on the side of equating OWs to hookers-OWs that were or are in an affair. Obviously ONS are a different categroy, though, still not in the "hooker" category, although, of course there is always an exception. I was not talking about just the emotion "Love"...I was talking about whatever emotion the MM has for the OW, that is/are dismiss as nothing but....

 

I don't agree with the people who say that when one has an affair one does not love his/her spouse. That's too simplistic.

 

TC, I was not aware of your situation and can understand, therefore, why perhaps you are taking some of what I have written personally. If I have offended you please accept my apologies.

 

My husband did not have ONS, so I believe you may have my situation confused with someone else.

 

From now on, feel free to skip over my posts and I will do the same with yours. Live and let live.

[Gamine]

Hey Gamine -- just so you know, *I* do read your posts, from start to finish, and I find what you write to be insiteful, helpful and knowledgeable. Please don't listen to what TC is saying and shorten your thoughts or whatever. She can learn to just skip your posts

 

Thank you, I appreciate knowing that I'm not being a total pain in the neck to everyone here! I suppose I am long winded, but because I am sincere it is my desire to really communicate... Thanks....

[tami-chan]

TC, I was not aware of your situation and can understand, therefore, why perhaps you are taking some of what I have written personally. If I have offended you please accept my apologies.

 

My husband did not have ONS, so I believe you may have my situation confused with someone else.

 

From now on, feel free to skip over my posts and I will do the same with yours. Live and let live.

 

 

You did not have to be aware of my situation. I could have posted a response four years ago (when I was a BS for more than a dozen years) and I would have said the same.

 

I am pretty sure that when you were an OW in your 20's(your post, dated 27May09), you did not think that what you had with your MM was equal to a hooker transaction.

 

I understand your husband did not have ONS, but he might as well have since he does not view sex as an expression of something emotionally profound and meaningful. Plus didn't he try to hook up with a waitress at one time?

 

No apologies necessary, it is what it is.

[Gamine]

You did not have to be aware of my situation. I could have posted a response four years ago (when I was a BS for more than a dozen years) and I would have said the same.

 

I am pretty sure that when you were an OW in your 20's(your post, dated 27May09), you did not think that what you had with your MM was equal to a hooker transaction.

 

I understand your husband did not have ONS, but he might as well have since he does not view sex as an expression of something emotionally profound and meaningful. Plus didn't he try to hook up with a waitress at one time?

 

No apologies necessary, it is what it is.

 

I was a jackass when I was in my 20's. Thank God that was 25+ years ago and have since developed a heart and soul I am proud of.

 

Looking back on the absurdity I called a life many years ago I can say that I have no need to glamorize what was not, in reality, glamorous. I have no need to interject anything into it. It was what it was. And, I am capable of seeing them for what they were. Stripping away all of the unnecessary 'repackaging' I am also not terribly certain that some of my experiences weren't 'hookerish' when you get right down to it.

 

I don't know what your background is, how you've lived or whether you even had brothers. I grew up with 2 brothers with friends who hung around our house so much they might as well have been my brothers... and let me tell you... it is very special when a guy sees sex as emotionally profound. In fact, it is a downright miracle when they do. When it rises to the 'emotionally profound' level for a guy... well, let's just say it is that once in a lifetime thing. Ask around. Talk to guys. Ask them whether they see sex as emotionally profound and I think you'll understand men.

 

My husband's psychotic bull was a flip out period that involved a 4/5 month window where he went insane. He is not a serial cheater, thank heavens, and is 1000% into being married and remaining married to me. At this juncture I am the one who is holding back due to the obvious difficulties brought into my psyche.

 

However, as a woman I persisted with insisting that his nonsense with the OW he slept with was emotionally based. Trust me, it was difficult to wrap my mind around the possibility that it was nothing more than sex meet ups with verbal 'fluff' in between. I, like you, found it to be a difficult concept to understand. How could a man profess love to several women at the same time? What is/was wrong with him? Was he a psycho?

 

Well according to many articles I've read and the input from his psychologist, it is precisely about using words to manipulate situations (including oneself) and getting what one wants... which happens to be attention and sex. Period. Now, before you start focusing on my last sentence as the be all end all I'd like to also interject that what I am referencing here is but one example of an affair dynamic. There are perhaps millions of men and women engaging in these types of affairs day in and day out through the numerous 'affair hook up sites'.

 

There are also those A's that are based on actual, genuine, heartfelt emotions.

 

But TC, it is quite naive to assume that men view sex as an expression of a deep emotional commitment. It is equally naive to assume the same is true for all women.

 

I doubt the folks on Ashley Madison or a site called Horny Matches are there for a deep emotional connection. Yet, they are engaged in affairs.

 

Having players for brothers I could see their using ways with girls and I could also see how they were different with a girl when they truly loved or cared for her. I can also see the same in men.

 

No, TC, my husband obviously did not view sex as sacred and reserved only to a woman with whom he is deeply emotionally connected. He was a swine in that regard, but was, unfortunately... representative of what appears to be emerging in our society for both the sexes. This climate has brought out the worst in men. And, apparently women as well... since statistically there are more woman screwing around then men nowadays.

 

I don't need to believe that sex is a life changing experience for males... just that it is possible with the right woman. And it is precisely through that special connection that they become the men God intended them to be.

 

So no. Insofar as the OW was concerned apparently my husband was able to tell her all sorts of sweet things... but in reality... did not mean a word of it. Does that make him an ass? You bet it does. But trust me, there are plenty of them out there.

 

So while guys can be skirt chasers, players, cheaters, liars, and manipulators... so can women. And, if sex were reserved amongst the populous for only 'deep emotional connections' I doubt it if hardly anyone would be having any sex.

[Aquarius Rising]

He chooses to stay married and is only obligated to string them both along to save his azz.

 

 

Touche ...... that has been exactly my experience. My MM was obligated to string me along and his W to save his selfish AZZ....

 

The balance of power has changed. I could SINK his sorry AZZ right now if I was that way inclined. Lucky for him, I am not. I see no healthy reason for hurting his W and kids even more.

 

My theory on this thread question is simple. Women want to find that FAIRYTALE love that we are all taught to believe exists right from when we are little girls ..... we are taught that it is a MAN that completes us, fulfills us, will bring us that eternal happiness.... and 'good girls' marry that man believing that's exactly what they're signing up for.

 

People grow, change, and need different things as they grow and change. Women are not socially encouraged to talk about their sexual preferences, their desire for different partners (the same as a man's) etc. and therefore they wander into relationships with MM who appear to be the safe choice, after all they are already married so therefore must WANT that lifelong commitment .....

 

Only problem is the OW soon wants to believe that MM will want the same fairytale she does ..... WITH HER!! After all, we are conditioned to believe that, are we not?

 

WRONG!! ....... as has been said before on this forum. MM in affairs want affairs NOT divorces. MW/OW in affairs generally want the fairytale! IMO?

 

AR

[Gamine]

Touche ...... that has been exactly my experience. My MM was obligated to string me along and his W to save his selfish AZZ....

 

The balance of power has changed. I could SINK his sorry AZZ right now if I was that way inclined. Lucky for him, I am not. I see no healthy reason for hurting his W and kids even more.

 

My theory on this thread question is simple. Women want to find that FAIRYTALE love that we are all taught to believe exists right from when we are little girls ..... we are taught that it is a MAN that completes us, fulfills us, will bring us that eternal happiness.... and 'good girls' marry that man believing that's exactly what they're signing up for.

 

People grow, change, and need different things as they grow and change. Women are not socially encouraged to talk about their sexual preferences, their desire for different partners (the same as a man's) etc. and therefore they wander into relationships with MM who appear to be the safe choice, after all they are already married so therefore must WANT that lifelong commitment .....

 

Only problem is the OW soon wants to believe that MM will want the same fairytale she does ..... WITH HER!! After all, we are conditioned to believe that, are we not?

 

WRONG!! ....... as has been said before on this forum. MM in affairs want affairs NOT divorces. MW/OW in affairs generally want the fairytale! IMO?

 

AR

 

 

Now this is perhaps one of the most straight to the point... enlightened posts I have read on LS to date. AR, you've nailed it. Man, you're bright.

[NoIDidn't]

MM in affairs want affairs NOT divorces.

 

So true. Even the few resident MM that have posted here have basically stated that. Most have not been looking to leave their marriages, only to supplement them.

 

We women get jerked around because of thinking that men think just like us. They don't. It doesn't make them wrong or us right, just different. Men tend to be very literal. A man in an affair usually has a very basic premise that he's operating on: she knows I'm married so she must be in agreement to what I am looking for. Women tend to read too much into this equation: he's choosing me to cheat with so he must really like/love/want to be with me and not her.

 

Men in affairs usually want very different things than women in affairs - be the woman married or single.

[Reggie]

This sounds true. I can't recall seeing many OM posts where the OM is all messed up about the MW staying in her realitonship. I've seen a few ,bu the vast majority of these posts lamenting the situation re from OW's. Seems many really do expect the guy to up and leave his family. This seldonm happens unless the guy is forced out by the BS upon discovery.

MW's. on the other hand, seem to up and leave more readily.

[Reggie]

I am serious about this: it seems that , in many ways, Hookers are more honest than OWs. I understood Gamine's post simply addressing the level of attachment in some affairs vs others. But, I do not understand someone taking umbridge re comparing some affair dynamics to use of prostitutes.

[NoIDidn't]

I am serious about this: it seems that , in many ways, Hookers are more honest than OWs. I understood Gamine's post simply addressing the level of attachment in some affairs vs others. But, I do not understand someone taking umbridge re comparing some affair dynamics to use of prostitutes.

 

Given that my dad is a serial cheat, unapologetic about it too, I think he probably liked prostitutes better when he could afford them. No emotional attachment and they did what they were paid to do.

 

But some MM want the adoration to be real, and not feigned like prostitutes do. So they need the other person to think that they are something that they are not, all the while still getting "services".

 

I can understand why an OW is offended by the prostitute angle, but its really not meant that way towards them but towards the mindset of the MM.

[jj33]

I find that whole mentality to be extremely offensive. If you want to talk that way I think you should take it to the infidelity board.

 

No wonder so many people dont want to post on this board.

[NoIDidn't]

I find that whole mentality to be extremely offensive. If you want to talk that way I think you should take it to the infidelity board.

 

No wonder so many people dont want to post on this board.

 

You find the mentality of many MM offensive? If only more women felt that way, they would be so willing to assume that he's thinking the most positive things about them when they decide to be his partner in crime.

 

What does that have to do with people not wanting to post here? People not wanting to post here has more to do with them and their fears than the fact that some MM do see having an OW as a cost-effective way of avoiding paying for prostitutes or divorce.

 

Also, I fail to see why this should be taken to the Infidelity Board. You are always free to avoid posts or threads that you find offensive.

[complicatedlife]

I find that whole mentality to be extremely offensive. If you want to talk that way I think you should take it to the infidelity board.

 

No wonder so many people dont want to post on this board.

 

Everytime I've visited over the past week or so and read this particular thread, I am constantly shaking my head.

 

Not only is it offensive (as it should be to ANY woman here, OW or not), but it also has nothing to do with the OP's question.

 

It is, in my opinion, another way to put the OW "in her place" to "set her straight" and let her know what place MMs put them in. I mean...really; is it such a stretch to believe that just as there are some single men and women who want and need an emotional connection (and some who could care less about that - they are just wanting the "act") in order to be physically intimate, there are MMs and MWs who want and need the same?

 

Unbelievable.

[GreenEyedLady]

You find the mentality of many MM offensive? If only more women felt that way, they would be so willing to assume that he's thinking the most positive things about them when they decide to be his partner in crime.

 

What does that have to do with people not wanting to post here? People not wanting to post here has more to do with them and their fears than the fact that some MM do see having an OW as a cost-effective way of avoiding paying for prostitutes or divorce.

 

Also, I fail to see why this should be taken to the Infidelity Board. You are always free to avoid posts or threads that you find offensive.

 

I went through and read the most recent posts and NONE of them was from a MM.

 

I guess you would agree then the husband-wife situation is also a cost effective way of ensuring sex? Each bartering for what they want?