Land Shark Posted June 24, 2009 Posted June 24, 2009 ...however since she is a cheater, she accepted his marriage proposal and cheated. I would put it this way: "she was too much of a coward to break up with him to his face, so she took the easy way out." Labeling her as a "cheater" is too simplistic. To me, that reveals more about you and your emotional state than it does her. She has a weakness of character that is common to more people than you might care to admit. It's a tiny percentage of the population that could never be tempted to cheat. I'd be inclined to trust those who are judgmental and self-righteous least of all, because they are living a life of denial. People have a better chance to avoid doing it if they are honest with themselves about their capacity for it. "Never say never", right? Knee-jerk reactions and demonizing people because of personal issues you haven't resolved undermines whatever point you're trying to make. It gives me the impression you'd be more than happy to join a lynch mob, and I don't respect that. The original poster can't fix his fiance, and he shouldn't stay with her (not that she's really going to give him a choice). But he can fix himself. If he doesn't, he'll have a hard time keeping any woman around, regardless of what she's made of.
Skeptic Posted June 24, 2009 Posted June 24, 2009 Personally I think the whole ritual of the bachelor/bachelorette party is an antiquated and silly practice. Far too often, it's viewed as a "free pass" to do whatever one wants without repercussion. Why get married in the first place if you feel like you need one more night to roam the streets and get your rocks off one last time. It's not a celebration of what is about to happen- people seem to view it as mourning the loss of their freedom. If you really view marriage as a loss of freedom- then don't get married- plain and simple. I have been to bachelorette parties where the bride has cheated, there is almost an expectation and even support for this to occur. Of course this doesn't happen with all parties- but it does happen. There will be those antagonists present that will pressure for something scandalous to happen- this antagonist isn't gender specific. I know I felt pressure at my bachelorette party to do something crazy ( I didn't). I just dislike that it has become a forum in which cheating behaviour is painted as a free pass - in some instances, it's aggressively encouraged. OP, I know what I would do in your shoes- I'd leave my fiance (easier said than done I know). Cheating is cheating, regardless of the fact that it happened while intoxicated at a bachelorette party. I don't think you'll ever be able to reconcile with what she did, nor will you ever be able to trust her. ^ Exactly.
samspade Posted June 24, 2009 Posted June 24, 2009 Why get married in the first place if you feel like you need one more night to roam the streets and get your rocks off one last time. It's not a celebration of what is about to happen- people seem to view it as mourning the loss of their freedom. If you really view marriage as a loss of freedom- then don't get married- plain and simple. Excellent point. If you are prepared to cheat on the eve of your wedding, under the pretense of a "last night of freedom," what would stop you from finding another lame justification during the marriage? The original poster can't fix his fiance, and he shouldn't stay with her (not that she's really going to give him a choice). But he can fix himself. If he doesn't, he'll have a hard time keeping any woman around, regardless of what she's made of. Amen. Too often, people try to "work through it," usually because the aggrieved party is too fearful of loneliness to dump the cheater. This is part of the same insecurity that contributes to the desperately permissive atmosphere under which one party would attempt to cheat. There is no 100% safeguard against cheating. An individual can only have the self-respect and independence it takes to maintain a zero tolerance policy on cheating, and to operate under the expectation that his/her SO will not cheat. After all that, if cheating happens, it's on the cheater - and the cheater is on the curb.
Ariadne Posted June 24, 2009 Posted June 24, 2009 too fearful of loneliness to dump the cheater. This is part of the same insecurity that contributes to the desperately permissive atmosphere under which one party would attempt to cheat. maintain a zero tolerance policy on cheating the cheater is on the curb. Easier said than done. Most guys when they are being cheated on fall in love with the girl even more, and would buy anything she tells them to stay together.
samspade Posted June 24, 2009 Posted June 24, 2009 Easier said than done. Most guys when they are being cheated on fall in love with the girl even more, and would buy anything she tells them to stay together. Agreed. That's why it takes a change in one's mentality - whether single or taken - to avoid these pitfalls. It's not a switch that's easily made in the moment. A person must cultivate his sense of self-respect and maintain it throughout. Like you said, easier said than done, but it's like exercise...it will feel natural eventually, and the alternative will feel unpalatable.
jnj express Posted June 24, 2009 Posted June 24, 2009 hey SQL---what bothers me is that after a relationship of 4 yrs., you feel it is necessary to advise your fiance how to act at her Bach. party. She is 28, she knows how relationships work, she knows how couples should act especially this close to saying their vows. You met her when she was 24, so she had time to sow her wild oats. 4 years later there should not be major problems, they should have been worked out. Are there problems in your relationship, that would cause you to repeatedly warn her about how to act, and that would cause her to cheat on you. Making out and using her tongue on a male stripper are bad enough, but they pale in comparison with her dissapearing for an hour with another guy. If they just wanted to talk they could have sat in a booth surrounded by their respective parties, The dissapeaing act meant they wanted to be alone. WHY----She knows right from wrong even if she was dead drunk, she knew what she was doing. Again IMHO, you need to back off from marrying her, and straighten this out in your own mind, for once you marry, you cannot just WALK AWAY. She has disrespected you and your future together WHY.
RunawayTrain Posted June 24, 2009 Posted June 24, 2009 I would put it this way: "she was too much of a coward to break up with him to his face, so she took the easy way out." Labeling her as a "cheater" is too simplistic. To me, that reveals more about you and your emotional state than it does her. She has a weakness of character that is common to more people than you might care to admit. It's a tiny percentage of the population that could never be tempted to cheat. I'd be inclined to trust those who are judgmental and self-righteous least of all, because they are living a life of denial. People have a better chance to avoid doing it if they are honest with themselves about their capacity for it. "Never say never", right? Knee-jerk reactions and demonizing people because of personal issues you haven't resolved undermines whatever point you're trying to make. It gives me the impression you'd be more than happy to join a lynch mob, and I don't respect that. The original poster can't fix his fiance, and he shouldn't stay with her (not that she's really going to give him a choice). But he can fix himself. If he doesn't, he'll have a hard time keeping any woman around, regardless of what she's made of. What is so simplistic about labeling her a cheater ? Would it be simplistic to label Ted Bundy a serial killer ? I know those are two totally different things way off the spectrum however you have to look at the reality of it. She cheated. I am not speaking on emotion like you are insinuating and this has absolutely nothing to do with lynching her. I am basing my opinion on the facts provided by the OP. I am a firm believer that people should be held responsible for their actions. Crucifying the OP because he has been cheated on is wrong in my opinion. His fiancee is to blame.
Dexter Morgan Posted June 24, 2009 Posted June 24, 2009 Don't take it so personally, Dexter. I wasn't talking about you or anything that has happened to you in your life. So I'm not the one you should be attacking. Maybe it's one or more of your exes. Or your mom or dad. But not me. In case you feel like reading a bit closer: I'm not defending her. I'm only saying that the original poster appears to have bigger problems than his dumb fiance. If he gets rid of her, those problems won't be solved. Relationships are similar to computers: garbage in, garbage out. She brought some garbage. Maybe he did, too. I'm sorry if this is how things have gone for you in your relationships. Clearly it struck a nerve, and as satisfying as it always turns out to be, causing you pain wasn't my intent. I was commenting on what the OP's gf did.....not you. So for all you just wrote....gotta give you a great big And yes, you are defending her. And I see you sidestepped my guess.
Dexter Morgan Posted June 24, 2009 Posted June 24, 2009 The original poster can't fix his fiance, and he shouldn't stay with her (not that she's really going to give him a choice). But he can fix himself. If he doesn't, he'll have a hard time keeping any woman around, regardless of what she's made of. really, and what is it about him that needs fixing? No guessing or assuming here. What is actually in him that needs fixing? Besides the ability to pick a decent woman?
Dexter Morgan Posted June 24, 2009 Posted June 24, 2009 hey SQL---what bothers me is that after a relationship of 4 yrs., you feel it is necessary to advise your fiance how to act at her Bach. party. She is 28, she knows how relationships work, she knows how couples should act especially this close to saying their vows. apparantly she didn't:o
Trialbyfire Posted June 24, 2009 Posted June 24, 2009 I'm more than happy to lynch a cheater since I've always felt strongly about cheating. Then, to top it off, having been cheated on, it's just reinforced why it's important not to put up with it. Cheating stands alone as a dysfunctional coping tool. There's just no excuse for it since a normal relationship is about two people. If one isn't fueling it, it's up to the other to walk away, rather than seek it from a third or more party. I have to drag in my visualization of cheating, at least in this particular circumstance, since certain members are trying to play the blame game, with no facts and nothing more than smoke and mirror projection. Are relationships like a Tom and Jerry cartoon, where they chase and brain each other with frying pans, like a never-ending game of whack-a-mole? If that's the case, good luck to anyone for ever having a viable future relationship.
samspade Posted June 24, 2009 Posted June 24, 2009 What is actually in him that needs fixing? Besides the ability to pick a decent woman? That's a big "besides." I'm not sure if you're being facetious, but I think you are.... Like I said, cheating is on the cheater. That doesn't mean you can't take steps to improve your self-respect, and be smarter about recognizing the warning signs. Too many people are willing to ignore the little red flags that stare them in the face. Why? Because they aren't willing to walk away from someone who has shown them affection. They believe it's worse to be alone than to be with someone who has a high propensity to cheat. When these red flags pop up, and the person chooses to ignore him, they are signaling back, "I know you're a low quality ho, but I'll take anything." That lack of self-respect is what needs fixing.
Chrome Barracuda Posted June 24, 2009 Posted June 24, 2009 Bottom line is she knew what she was doing, he forewarned her and said it's hard for me to trust you. and what she do? Act stupid and did it anyway's. Not because she was pressured she did it because she wanted to. Simple as that. cheating is a choice. She chose this. He should just get his ring back and kick her to the curb. Grieve and move on. I dont care what her excuses was she had a choice. She knew what she was doing going in. I dont know how you can be so clear with a woman about the cheating done in the past that she would steer clear of it, but yet she swerves headfirst into it??? WTF?
Trialbyfire Posted June 24, 2009 Posted June 24, 2009 I dont know how you can be so clear with a woman about the cheating done in the past that she would steer clear of it, but yet she swerves headfirst into it??? WTF?While this had nothing to do with cheating, I've experienced this type of reaction from a person who's passive-aggressive. It was the most bizarre, give your head a shake, most effed up approach to life. At first, I had no idea what the hell was going on, just constantly in a state of WTF? The knowledge base found on LS, helped me figure out that it was passive-aggressiveness and how detrimental this type of behaviour is, to relationships.
Chrome Barracuda Posted June 24, 2009 Posted June 24, 2009 While this had nothing to do with cheating, I've experienced this type of reaction from a person who's passive-aggressive. It was the most bizarre, give your head a shake, most effed up approach to life. At first, I had no idea what the hell was going on, just constantly in a state of WTF? The knowledge base found on LS, helped me figure out that it was passive-aggressiveness and how detrimental this type of behaviour is, to relationships. I agree, but passive agressive or not. Her choices are her own to own. I've seen this alot to. it's very disturbing to observe someone saying something and then doing something so seriously out of left field it is frustrating! But besides that like I said he should get the ring back and be gone. Reguardless of the cheating, why. because she may walk up to the altar and say I love you forever , she may turn around and then be a whore of babylon. Who knows what this woman is thinking?
Trialbyfire Posted June 24, 2009 Posted June 24, 2009 I agree, but passive agressive or not. Her choices are her own to own. I've seen this alot to. it's very disturbing to observe someone saying something and then doing something so seriously out of left field it is frustrating! But besides that like I said he should get the ring back and be gone. Reguardless of the cheating, why. because she may walk up to the altar and say I love you forever , she may turn around and then be a whore of babylon. Who knows what this woman is thinking?I'm with you about getting the ring back and moving on.
Land Shark Posted June 25, 2009 Posted June 25, 2009 really, and what is it about him that needs fixing? No guessing or assuming here. What is actually in him that needs fixing? Besides the ability to pick a decent woman? Sorry, man. I would answer your question if I hadn't already answered it several times in earlier posts. You didn't read those, so I'm not going to post more stuff for you not to read. You'll just continue the pattern by getting offended by what you assume I'm saying. And that makes you a drag. If you want me to respond ask me a question I haven't already answered or make an interesting point.
stace79 Posted June 25, 2009 Posted June 25, 2009 One of the things I have noticed about this website is that a lot of posters think that the only solution to a relationship problem is to find a new spouse. How many posts in here are the same as this one? 6 posts in a row screaming 'leave her'! 'she doesn't deserve you' etc. Whatever. We've all made mistakes. My take on the thing is that if both people still love each other and are willing to work to stay together, then what you need to be looking for is a way to rebuild that life that you had wanted together. You need a solution that helps you move forward, not something that removes the person from your life. I don't have a lot of experience, but I'm willing to bet that most people who do end up staying together for a good part of their lives end up having to work through infidelity issues at some point. It doesn't make her a bad person, just someone that made a mistake. If you can, try and figure out how to make that work for you. And if that doesn't, well at least you did your best. It takes two willing partners to "work things out". If she's so easily swayed on just ONE night of drinking, she's not willing to WORK. Also, if as the OP said, she frequently blacks out from drinking too much, how about she STOP DRINKING TOO MUCH? Sorry, but cheating is just one thing I would NEVER accept in my relationship, I don't care how much I love a man. You cheat, you're gone. It's that simple. I can be pretty flexible and compromising about a lot of things, but that ain't one of them.
Dexter Morgan Posted June 25, 2009 Posted June 25, 2009 Sorry, man. I would answer your question if I hadn't already answered it several times in earlier posts. You didn't read those, so I'm not going to post more stuff for you not to read. well apparantly you didn't read. everything you have posted so far are only assumptions about what might be his problem. how do you know what there is to fix when ...well...you don't know what there is to fix? tell me what you KNOW is wrong with him....none of this assuming crap. You'll just continue the pattern by getting offended by what you assume I'm saying. And that makes you a drag. only one assuming anything is you. If you want me to respond ask me a question I haven't already answered or make an interesting point. you didn't answer the question I posed in a previous post. I said tell me what you KNOW it is about him that needs fixing. Your answers were pure assumption in an attempt to defend a cheater, cuz I suspect, and its only a guess(I can admit it) that you are a cheater yourself. and a piss poor attempt it was at that. thats your way, if you can't stick with the facts, make s##t up:eek:
Land Shark Posted June 26, 2009 Posted June 26, 2009 Like I said, read my posts. If there is a specific point I made that you want to address, go ahead and quote it. All the things you seek to know, I already explained. Good luck. I won't gloat, by the way, if you just go ahead and concede. I'm not like that.
Dexter Morgan Posted June 26, 2009 Posted June 26, 2009 Like I said, read my posts. If there is a specific point I made that you want to address, go ahead and quote it. All the things you seek to know, I already explained. Good luck. I won't gloat, by the way, if you just go ahead and concede. I'm not like that. LOL. Ok, lets repost the ONLY thing he said that you could have possibly took from it that you think he needs "fixing" in himself: In the month or two leading up to her bachelorette party I spent extended lengths of time explaining to her my fears surrounding her bachelorette party. She spent extended amounts of time trying to explain to me that I had nothing to worry about. ok, so he discussed his feelings with her. nowhere did he say he forbid her to go, nowhere did he say, "I JUST KNOW YOU ARE A CHEATING #### AND THAT YOU'LL CHEAT ON ME IN VEGAS!!!" he had concerns...valid concerns based on past experiences. he didn't say he didn't trust her, he just wanted her to know he was uncomfortable with certain things. She assured him it wasn't the case. So....she goes and he doesn't put up a fight. So here are the things you said that are PURE assumption to which you have no base for: I'm not ready to agree that the root cause is all or even mostly her. The original poster may have similar problems with pretty much anyone he gets involved with your own words..."The original poster MAY have similar problems with pretty much ANYONE he gets involved with" having concerns about what someone did in the past and letting feelings be known to a current SO is not having a "problem" with said SO pure assumption on your part. Dex 1 Land Shark 0 Here's how I paraphrase the original post: "I've been with a girl for four years who I never trusted the entire time, because of things that happened to me that had nothing to do with her. I asked this person I can't trust to marry me, and she said yes. But as the bachelorette party drew near, I started pressuring her more and more to not do things that a trustworthy person would never do at all. where did he say he didn't trust her the entire time? he relayed his feelings and concerns to her. It was about letting her know what he isn't comfortable with. You know the old saying "What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas" well not this time it didn't. so again you ASSUMED he didn't trust her merely because he expressed his feelings and ASSUMED he never trusted her. more assumption on your part Dex 2 Land Shark 0 He never trusted her. really? when did he say this. When did he say he had talks with her throughout the entire relationship and said, "I don't trust you" or forbid her to do anything? he didn't......bada bing. Dex 3 Land Shark 0 He had issues before the party even happened. He fantasized about what might happen. Then he accused her of being the kind of person who would do them. He did? Where did he say that? He didn't, you just made that up and pulled it out of your arse Dex 4 Land Shark 0 All you have to do is look for the evidence in the first post. I did. All that is there was that he was wronged in the past, and that he had concerns. he didn't say he didn't trust her, he didn't accuse her of being a cheater...etc...etc...all things you ASSUMED. here endeth the lesson. I already know you didn't answer anything about your assumptions and I have proven that it is all they were...assumptions.
Land Shark Posted June 27, 2009 Posted June 27, 2009 ok, so he discussed his feelings with her. nowhere did he say he forbid her to go, nowhere did he say, "I JUST KNOW YOU ARE A CHEATING #### AND THAT YOU'LL CHEAT ON ME IN VEGAS!!!" He brought it up, and he said himself that he brought it up a lot. The reason he brought it up a lot is because he felt they could happen. And that's just another way of telling her he thinks she might do them. I.e. "Based on things I think that have nothing to do with you, I think you'll cheat on me!" I think it's fine to discuss your concerns with your fiance. But you have to know which part of your concerns are your problem and which part are hers. he had concerns...valid concerns based on past experiences. I agree he had concerns. But the past experiences were with someone else. Not her. His painful history had nothing to do with her. With no evidence that she would do something, it's not clear to me that he had valid concerns before the party. he didn't say he didn't trust her, he just wanted her to know he was uncomfortable with certain things. If he trusted her, what would be the point in worrying or even bringing it up? Would it be rational to say (repeatedly) "I know in my heart that you won't do these things, but it's really bothering me that you might do these things." Not to me. Maybe it is to you, but then I'd just say that you should take a class in logic. your own words..."The original poster MAY have similar problems with pretty much ANYONE he gets involved with" Nowhere in the original post did he mention that this particular fiance had done anything untrustworthy. The only justification he offered was "I was cheated on in the past". I would think if this girl had done anything to lose his trust, he'd have mentioned that as justification. That would be a stronger statement than bringing up what someone before her did. So I think that it's clear that he'd agree that she was true to him for four years. Or else he has serious memory problems. having concerns about what someone did in the past and letting feelings be known to a current SO is not having a "problem" with said SO pure assumption on your part. It's no more rational than saying "my ex was a mass murderer. she wasn't you. now I'm dating you. so I think you're a mass murderer." Actually I think it's ok to tell your current SO, "I have problems trusting, but it has nothing to do with you, so I know I have some things to work out on my own." I don't think it's ok to (repeatedly) tell your current SO, "I have problems trusting, so here are the things I think you might do because someone who isn't you did them in the past." Dex 1 Land Shark 0 If you say so. Having been on the receiving end of the accusations of a woman who couldn't trust, all I can say is: It's a no-win situation. There is no justification for the worst of what the fiance might have done at the party. My point is this guy has some issues to work out. And they are serious ones. where did he say he didn't trust her the entire time? he relayed his feelings and concerns to her. Do you really think that all this distrust just popped up at the end of a four year relationship? Do you think along the way he never wondered if she would be true to him until somehow magically after she agreed to marry him? It was all about the bachelorette party? I think you're in dreamland. Chances are very good that she was faced with questions and accusations all along. Every time any other guy showed interest or even talked to her. Every time she had something to do that didn't involve the original poster. If she mentioned another guy's name... Etc. I'm not just guessing here. I know what it's like to not trust. And I know I've seen it in others. Insecurity like that is constant. And it's easy to trigger. Dex 2 Land Shark 0 Have your point. Take a thousand if you want. really? when did he say this. When did he say he had talks with her throughout the entire relationship and said, "I don't trust you" or forbid her to do anything? he didn't......bada bing. I think you're assuming the lack of trust just popped up at the end. I think someone who has been hurt in the past and hasn't dealt with it never trusts until they've put away the feelings about the past. And I mean never, not occasionally. And that means that the bachelorette party was just the last in a long line of events that triggered questions and implications and accusations. That's how people who don't trust operate. Unless they are also psychotic. Dex 3 Land Shark 0 I'll give you your point. The real score here is: fiance 0, original poster -2. He did? Where did he say that? He didn't, you just made that up and pulled it out of your arse Because before he met her something happened. And because it's the first thing he mentioned to justify bothering her about the bachelorette party. After four years of dating her. After they agreed to get married. If he ever trusted her at all, it would surely be at the end, after they agreed to be married, after he had spent so long getting to know her. If she had lost his trust along the way, he would have mentioned that instead of the fact that someone before her cheated on him. He never trusted her, because he can't trust any woman. That's clear in the first post before he even mentions the bachelorette party. Dex 4 Land Shark 0 You just didn't read the first post. You didn't think about what he really said. I did. All that is there was that he was wronged in the past, and that he had concerns. he didn't say he didn't trust her, he didn't accuse her of being a cheater...etc...etc...all things you ASSUMED. Answer this one question: what did his being wronged in the past by someone else have to do with her or the party? Wait. I'll answer for you: nothing. here endeth the lesson. I already know you didn't answer anything about your assumptions and I have proven that it is all they were...assumptions. So fine. Think what you want. I don't think a even good woman can stick around and deal with a lack of trust for very long. Could he have done anything to change what happened at the party? Maybe not. Did it matter that he didn't trust her? Maybe she was coincidentally untrustworthy. Or maybe she saw a lifetime of this coming and took the coward's way out. All I know for sure is the only true personal motivation for any decisions that was mentioned in the entire first post was "I've been cheated on in the past". By someone who was not her. In his next relationship he'll be bringing twice as much betrayal to the table. And apparently his next woman will have to deal with twice as much distrust. And that one might really be a keeper. One thing I know is that trust can't be earned if it is never given. He'll have to learn to give it.
boldjack Posted June 27, 2009 Posted June 27, 2009 OP, Do not marry this woman. You would only be asking for trouble. She is a liar and a cheat.
ai75 Posted June 28, 2009 Posted June 28, 2009 Dude... this girl is NOT quality. Licking a Chippendale's nipple, no info I would want to know, but that kind of stuff tends to happen at bachelorette parties. MAKEOUTS?!? You are a lucky man... you haven't married her yet. Look in the mirror, tell yourself what you stand for and what you deserve. Then tell her she just lost the greatest thing that ever happened to her, wish her the best and RUN FOR THE HILLS
jerbear Posted June 28, 2009 Posted June 28, 2009 To begin with... I have been cheated on in the past by other girlfriends. My fiancee and I have been together for 4 years. In the month or two leading up to her bachelorette party I spent extended lengths of time explaining to her my fears surrounding her bachelorette party. She spent extended amounts of time trying to explain to me that I had nothing to worry about. Her party came and went... and what I found out was that she made out with multiple guys. She also did things like licking shots off of chippendale strippers. This has shattered my trust... and hurts like hell. The worst part is that she didn't tell me when I asked... she told me some details and then told me "nothing else happened". Well she is a bad liar and I know her well. So I pryed... and she lied... and I pryed... and she cried and lied... and I pryed... and she lied and got angry at me and said things like "why don't you trust me"... and I pried and I found out about the make outs and chippendale waiter and that she wandered off in Vegas with the bachelor from a bachelor party that was there. They were gone for an hour... just the two of them. She swears up and down that nothing happened. I am struggling to believe her. There are times when it does not bother me and there are other times like tonight... that it hurts to lay next to her. Before this event she never gave me a reason to not trust her. The weekend after she returned home from the party we got into a fight... she was screaming and yelling at me... hit the dash of the car so hard with her fist that it bruised. I had also never seen her behave this way. I had always been planning to have my bachelor party with my boys out in the woods doing guys stuff. No strippers... no sex... nothing but drinking and goofing off. We ended up renting quads and riding the dunes in oregon. We are supposed to be married in a month... I need advice. Have I lost the woman I loved? Why would she be ok with doing what she did? I just need advice. My mind is struggling to understand... and I am not sure I can. The being cheated upon by past girlfriends and her bachelorette party does not bode well for you. It is ok to show your insecurities but I think she took advantage of that knowing you won't take a hard stance. She pushed the boundaries and you just let it slide. There are some things that are not forgiven. My opinion is put the marriage on hold. If she did what she did, you've already lost her. BTW: for many people it is ok for them to do something "bad" but not ok when it happens to them. It's not too late to dodge this bullet. Are you sure you really want to marry this woman? By the way I wonder if the militant anti-porn and anti-strip club crowd on here will be as quick to condemn as they are any man who does this. I do agree with potentially dodging this bullet. Actually, where are they?
Recommended Posts