Plan H (healing)...

[Owl]

"Being nice" has no place in divorce. During the marriage, certainly. During reconciliation, possibly depending on circumstances. During divorce...certainly not.

 

It just makes you look weak-willed.

 

She set the stage for this situation...as long as you're doing right by the kids, there's not likely much benefit to you "playing nice" with her at this point. As you've seen...she's not going to do so.

 

Protect yourself, protect your kids, stop trying to 'protect' her. She lost the right to that long ago, and doing so now will be at a COST to you and your children.

[DNU1]

"Being nice" has no place in divorce. During the marriage, certainly. During reconciliation, possibly depending on circumstances. During divorce...certainly not.

 

It just makes you look weak-willed.

 

Thanks Owl. I'm just a "nice guy" and have always been. Even people whom I detested in my workplace I could get along with them.

 

It is hard to turn off 20+ years of caring for someone. And I understand that she will be mother of our kids forever. So i want to be civil towards her.

 

I think her moving out this weekend will help me be less of a "helper" towards her.

[Reggie]

My BF wasn't a stay at home dad. He and his ex both worked. But he won custody, and it wasn't due to an "unfit parent" situation. It happens, so can we please stop blaming women's genitals and breasts on men not getting primary custody of their children? Some men just don't try hard enough, or even care to try at all.

 

There is clearly a bias, a holdover from the dark ages in some jurisdictions. It is declining, however. Each case has its own set of facts and merits. It has nothing to do with a woman's anatomy. Just a holdover from the days where women were almost always the primary caregivers. Seems to be a lagging in the attitudes of many judges catching up to reality.

I agree, it the both working situation, the guy has a decent shot, nowadays, at getting 50/50.

[Reggie]

I tried being nice and fair and had the same thing happen. My XWW showed no remorse and would not make concessions. Finally, the judge told her attorney to knock it off and settle, He was getting pissed(the judge).

It is amazing how we expect these WSs to show remorse and to be fair. They would not be WSs in the first place if that was part of their makeup.

[Dexter Morgan]

It appears , Dex, he is one of the rare guys holding the cards in the custody area.

 

ya, forgot about that, its why I said in his other post VIVA LA DNU!!

 

Strike one for us fathers that got the shaft out there:laugh:

 

 

Same with spousal maintenace: high wage earning wife, loss of career opportunities, staying home for the kids.

Despite the bias, he has enough to win on these issues. Sounds like she and her attorney realize this.

 

boy I'd love to be in the courtroom during this one

[DNU1]

Fishing with Dad and brother last two days...and STBx moved out today.

 

Bittersweet...

 

Her living her was difficult, but she inadvertently met some of my ENs (attractive spouse, conversation) which was good and bad. Made me feel a little good, but bad in that I was getting sucked back in.

 

Her moving out will help me distance myself from her. That will be a good thing...because I have to get her out of my system completely. I must keep moving forward.

 

And I'm sad that my DDs won't have their mother her every day. That breaks my heart. That makes me upset and angry at her for doing this to our family. But most of all that makes me sad for my DDs...

 

That's all for now. I keep taking care of my DDs #1, and myself #2. That's my existence for now.

[DNU1]

Realized something here when fishing with my brother and Dad...that I really don't express my true feelings to even my closest friends and family. The only person I truely have ever let my guard down around was my STBx. And now I cannot even do that...

 

She's found mb.com, so that is gone as far as a forum where I can express my true feelings.

 

So that leaves loveshack as the only place where I can truely vent and express my feelings about these affairs and this divorce.

 

So please excuse me if I'm wordy, or sappy, or angry, of feeling blue, or whatever. I feel I can't really talk to my family about my true feelings towards my STBx, because she willl always be the mother of our children...and will always be in our lives.

 

Yes, there has been some harsh words come out of my mouth here on my threads...but those were my TRUE feelings at the time. I write those words here because this place is anonomyous (sp?), and none of you know me from Adam. And those feelings change daily...even by the hour.

 

I don't say those words to her or to my close family and friends because I want to protect them all. And most of all I want to protect my DDs from hearing those harsh words about their mother. So I write here...

 

Most of you have experienced the pain and suffering I am going through.

 

Need to run...the puppy is in to something he shouldn't be...more later. D.

[lostsunsets]

DNU1, followed you over from MB boards. Your wife has to be one of the most emotionally unavailable posters I've read. She may be completely different in the flesh, but she really comes across as a completely self centered person. I hope you start to heal, now that she has moved out. Take care of the little ones and stay strong.

[DNU1]

So I'm sitting around here with nothing to do...so I start reading previous posts, looking back on my feelings at the time. It's soooo hard because I loved this woman so much. I'd do anything for her, and did. And I read the affidavit and see this sentence...when talking about me being SAHD

 

"this was a decision I struggled with because, while he was a great dad and made sure the girls were well taken care of, he was more concerned with his hobbies than running a household. Until Jan 2009 I have been the sole financial provider as well as the one who cared for the household."

 

Now I'll tell you, it was nice to hear words "great dad" and take care of teh kiddos...but the other parts of those sentences cut me.

 

Prior to Nov 2008:

- She did all the laundry until Nov '08 -- yes.

- We shared cooking and dish duties pretty much equally.

- We shared shopping equally -- probably me more

- She did probably a majority of the cleaning...but I did clean in the house.

- She never cleaned her vehicle, period. I always did that for her because I thought it was the right thing to do.

 

And since Jan I've pretty much done it all -- cooking, cleaning, laundry, etc. And that's in addition to everything else I did -- all while trying to recover our marriage.

 

Could I have done more before Nov 08? Sure! But to say she was the ONE who cared for the household? That hurt me.

 

I think it hurts because my family and friends all say I did the right thing as a SAHD - took care of my wife and kids. Even her BFFs flat out told me the wished their men were more like me.

 

My atty says that caring for the household thing doesn't do much in the courtroom...but it just hurts me that she would say such a thing.

 

On the one hand she says I was a GREAT DAD (I thank her for that), but that other part just hurts me...

 

Why am I hung up on that one sentence? It's probably just the person I am. I guess it hurts because in my mind I was doing everything I could think of to be the best husband and Dad that I could be.

 

I really hope her atty doesn't convince her to try and throw me under the bus come trial time. I just want fair and equitable. I just want what's right for our DDs.

[DNU1]

DNU1, followed you over from MB boards. Your wife has to be one of the most emotionally unavailable posters I've read. She may be completely different in the flesh, but she really comes across as a completely self centered person. I hope you start to heal, now that she has moved out. Take care of the little ones and stay strong.

 

She's not one for the forums and posting on line, so take that in to consideration.

 

If you could see her now and compare her to when we first met, it's like a completely different person. Back 20+ years ago she was shy, introverted, but very affectionate and loving. Her family is very disfunctional and I think it had and has a lasting effect on her. Being around me and my family really helped her open up. It was great to see her blossem as a person.

 

Over the years her confidence grew as she interacted with me and my family. She's often said she wishes her family was as supportive and close as mine. I really think her true personality was in there, it just took being around positive people to bring it out. I'm not taking all the credit for helping her become more outgoing and independent...I just helped her along in the ways that I knew how. I think it was in her all along...

 

The "emotionally unavailable" thing really perplexes me. She's always been a bit reserved, and there are topics that she just doesn't like to talk about (intimacy, certain family issues on her side, etc.) Lord knows I've tried to get her to open up...and I've got my issues also. I know communication could have been better throughout our marriage.

 

I think what you are seeing from her thread on mb.com is a result of way too much 2x4's against her head and way too soon. I've asked a few peeps over there to back off her a little and let her get her feet underneath her. But my sense is there are too many banging on her and she will just stop posting.

 

It's too bad, because I think if she can wade through the crap there are good posts in there for her to digest. And she even counseled with Dr. Harley himself (as did I), and he's everything they say he is, AND MORE!

 

I'm not sure she will continue to post over there, but I do sincerely hope she continues to counsel with Dr. Harley. Not for my own sake, but for her sake and for our DDs.

 

Yes, I would like to heal, but my main concern is for our DDs. I truely hope she can figure herself out and continue to be a good mother for our DDs. My healing can take a #2 role in this...

[Darth Vader]

Realized something here when fishing with my brother and Dad...that I really don't express my true feelings to even my closest friends and family. The only person I truely have ever let my guard down around was my STBx. And now I cannot even do that...

 

She's found mb.com, so that is gone as far as a forum where I can express my true feelings.

 

So that leaves loveshack as the only place where I can truely vent and express my feelings about these affairs and this divorce.

 

So please excuse me if I'm wordy, or sappy, or angry, of feeling blue, or whatever. I feel I can't really talk to my family about my true feelings towards my STBx, because she willl always be the mother of our children...and will always be in our lives.

 

Yes, there has been some harsh words come out of my mouth here on my threads...but those were my TRUE feelings at the time. I write those words here because this place is anonomyous (sp?), and none of you know me from Adam. And those feelings change daily...even by the hour.

 

I don't say those words to her or to my close family and friends because I want to protect them all. And most of all I want to protect my DDs from hearing those harsh words about their mother. So I write here...

 

Most of you have experienced the pain and suffering I am going through.

 

Need to run...the puppy is in to something he shouldn't be...more later. D.

 

 

So far she doesn't know about this place, yet. If she were to find out, you can change your name if you need to.

 

She may be trying to track you somehow. Make sure that she hasn't installed anything on your system to monitor your internet movements.

[DNU1]

So far she doesn't know about this place, yet. If she were to find out, you can change your name if you need to.

 

I'm not afraid of anything I've written here. Nothing to hide. Yes, I've had some harsh words, but who wouldn't if you have lived through three DDays and 4 OMs (and a potential STD scare...). This place is completely anonymous, and it's a place I've vented my true feelings. Atty has looked over all my posts and feels I have nothing to worry about nor hide.

 

For now I use this as my venting place, to post my thoughts. There is a risk of her finding this place, but venting here is better than venting to friends and family. If I vent to them there is the potential of a family/friend slipping up around my kiddos...and I WILL NOT put my DDs in that situation. They love their mom and need her in their lives.

 

She may be trying to track you somehow. Make sure that she hasn't installed anything on your system to monitor your internet movements.

 

She may be watching, but in some ways I dont' care. Built new computer and had it locked down since day #1. Don't think she hacked in to it...but you never know. What software might be able to pick up spy-ware?

 

Tonight was good -- family picnic. Not as many cousins as I would have liked to see, but good none the less. Tired...to bed soon.

[Owl]

DNU1, I too am a "refugee" from the MB boards...I got tired of the insults/anger/etc...that went on with the main clique there, and finally stopped posting there about a year ago. They call them 2x4's there, but in truth, most of it just comes across as verbal abuse with anyone that they don't like.

 

As far as why your wife said the things that she did...well, you've read about the "writing of marital history" that goes on in a WS's mind? Most likely, this is the source of her viewpoint. She doesn't even know she's doing it...she honestly believes what she's saying, and when she looks back at your marriage, that's how she views it...even if absolutely no one else can see it that way.

 

At this point, I'd really suggest that you start working plan B, if that's your goal. With her moveout, it's the right time to go there...if you've done the best plan A that you can.

 

Plan B...NC...and work on healing yourself and your family from the damages of her actions.

[DNU1]

Thanks Owl. My first month on the MB.com forums I got bashed for being a doormat, not standing up for myself, people trying to convince me to handle things "their way," etc. I just had to learn to filter what was being posted on my threads and make decisions based on my needs and my situation.

 

It's hard because while there is good support and advice there, much of it's just people venting their anger and frustration on other peepe. WSs have a particularly difficult time there...

 

That said, I think there are a few posts on her thread that might help her. She will just need to filter out what is crap and what speaks to her.

 

Interesting point, Dr. Harley counseled with both of us and said to me it was the right decision to not ask my wife to quit her job. This was Dr. Harley's words...and he's the man! But people keep banging on her about this(?) WTF?

 

Harley said to me the boards can be a good place, but also they tend to paint with a broad brush...he's more like a surgeon, slicing out just what needs to go.

 

Kiddos to counseling this afternoon. They seem to be handling her moving out well. We shall see. Taking care of them will continue to be my #1 priority! With STBx out of the house I no longer try to help her or focus on her...it's all about my DDs now!

[Owl]

I'm curious what his plan IS then?

 

His advice to you is contrary to the normal "plans" he tends to follow.

 

I'm not saying that he's wrong, or that you shouldn't do as he suggested...but I'm curious what his plan to reconcile your marriage IS if it doesn't include NC between your wife and OM?

[DNU1]

The plan is to follow through with the divorce. STBx counseled with Dr. Harley to try and understand why these affairs happened. she's trying to help herself heal and in tern help me heal.

 

I do not at this time wish to recover the marraige.

[Spark1111]

Owl, I think his advice is different for serial cheaters. You do not force them to leave the source of the other men because they will simply find another other man.

 

The best you can do is to remove yourself, the loving spouse, and see if the WS begins to miss you, or appreciate the relationship enough to begin to do the work necessary to first change themselves.

 

Having NC with OM#4 will not have the same impact on a serial cheater. Sad to say, they can always find another person to take their place.

 

In those situations, it is best for the BS to go no contact with the WS.

[Owl]

If that's the advice he's giving...I could see it.

 

I just didn't think I'd seen any indication that Dr Harley told DNU1 to go NC with his WW.

[DNU1]

If that's the advice he's giving...I could see it.

 

I just didn't think I'd seen any indication that Dr Harley told DNU1 to go NC with his WW.

 

No, Dr. Harley did not say go NC with my STBx. He understands and respects my decision to divorce. He asked if I would continue to work with him and STBx to help her understand these affairs. He believes that she can understand herself better and in tern, that might help me heal from the pain of the affairs.

 

HOpe this helps you understand...

[Owl]

Sorry DNU1...I keep getting situations mixed up.

 

I do agree with him...since you're divorcing, there is NO point in insisting that your wife end contact with OM.

 

It's pointless.

 

Why are you doing ANYTHING along the lines of marriage counseling with him, since you're divorcing?

 

I know you keep insisting you want the full truth from her, and I struggle with that.

 

Insisting you want/need the full truth is POINTLESS...she's got no reason to give it to you, and it's truly got nothing to do with your future. Assume the worst about her, and get her out of your life as fast as you can.

 

Anything less than that just SLOWS your personal healing.

[DNU1]

No problem Owl. It's easy to get stories mixed up and get confused. Yes, i'd like the full truth, but I realize that I may never get that. I think my best hope for full truth comes after divorce. I'm sure her atty has told her not to tell me any more, cause that might really piss me off and help me gas up warplanes. I keep telling her and everyone who will listen...I just want fair and equitable. That's all. Nothing else.

 

At this point in time if she came to me and wanted to have the "come-to-Jesus" talk (complete truth), I'd probably tell her no. With all the past lies, I think the only way I would believe her would be with a poly. And I'm sure her atty is telling her no way.

 

4 OMs is a lot, but people have recovered with more. I just don't think that his STBX is quite the monster that a lot of serial cheaters "obviously" are.

 

No, she's not a monster. I agree with you on that point completely. I've got peeps from the boards whose WWs say one thing, cry and beg them to stop D proceedings, yet sleep with the OM every night(?) WTF? And others who are down right mean, flaunt their affairs to BS and children, etc. No, my STBx is no where near that. I do give her credit -- she's taking some actions to help herself and doing some "heavy lifting" as mb.com-ers would say.

 

Thanks 2long. Appreciate the words and reply. More later. My DD wants me to watch some baseball with her

[Reggie]

Harley recognizes divorce as a very healthy option. He says that he, himself, would absolutely divorce if his spouse cheated, regardless of the circumstances.

DNUI, you have a difficult job healing because of the neccessity of co-parenting. I am doing the same and the continued contact is really hard to deal with.

I was sucessful in recovering from my first wife's serial chaeting , despite having to raise two boys together. It thelped me to accept that she really is the person she showed herself to be. For a while, I expected remorse and an apology. It finally came after 8 years post divorce but my feelings had died by then and I was remarried.

One other thing that helped was just always sticking to the business at hand, raising the boys. I never asked her about her personal life and , despite her repeated inquiries, I excluded her from my own.

I realize it is extremely difficult to accept that you were fooled so long. Actually, after her first affair, a part of you knew who she was. But, with kids, the committment to marriage, and your wife's apparent skill at manipulating, you were in denial. You were actually fortunate to have discovered such an extensive history of infidelit, as it should assure you that your wife is personality disordered and , almost certainly, unfixable.

My first wife is classic NPD and very high functioning , like your wife. She was magna cum laude from law school, very attractive and a master of manipulation.

One thing that helped me after divorcing was to talk to those who knew her , and our mutula friends. It was amazing how many people had bitten their tongues about their real thoughts on her. Once they saw I was thhrough with her, they came forward with their observations, none of which were flattering.

I bet others have seen what you have been through buit remained silent for fear of interferring. Talk to these folks.

[DNU1]

One thing that helped me after divorcing was to talk to those who knew her , and our mutula friends. It was amazing how many people had bitten their tongues about their real thoughts on her. Once they saw I was thhrough with her, they came forward with their observations, none of which were flattering.

I bet others have seen what you have been through buit remained silent for fear of interferring. Talk to these folks.

 

Yes, some of my long-time friends have said it seemed like I was very much the "giver" in our relationship, and her the "taker." Their wives would comment how come they (buddies) weren't as attentive as I was towards my STBx...you see the picture. One of my buddies wife says I'm the best husband/Dad she's ever seen.

 

Even her BFFs have said they consider me one of the best, if not THE best, husbands / fathers they have ever seen.

 

I don't want to sound cocky or arrogant...because Lord knows there are lots of things I can do better. I'm just relaying the messages i've heard.

 

I still find myself helping her...it's just who I am. It's like the scorpion and the frog fable...it's just who I am. I will probably continue to help her. She will always be the mother of my children.

[Reggie]

My dad was dying when I told him about my first wife's cheating and my intention to divorce her DNUI. Now, my father was a very smart guy, Harvard lawyer who grew up on the streets of NYC, living in the subways during the depression.

When I told him about what had happened, he said this to me " R, your wife is the most insincere person I have ever met." He knew but did not want to interfere. He picked up on it right away , almost from the start.

MY wife's sister came to me and said essentially the same thing. It really helped me to see that, after all the gaslighting and blameshifting, it was not me that was the problem. Many other people said similar things, folks one would normally expect would side with her.

[Shockedhusband]

Reggie

 

Same boat here, I can really not believe all he support I am getting even from my stbX's best friends. This is support I did not even solicit, they have came to me. All say the same things, I am in the right, Her sister, mother and best friends do not support what she has done. I many ways its very gratifying helps me to know I am doing to right thing