Why Does The OW.....

[OpenBook]

It all comes off as a way to blame the W for him stepping out (thanks' date=' OB, you always come through with that rationale, LOL).[/quote']

 

You are certainly entitled to your opinion as to where I'm "coming off", even though you're wrong. But I'm not the BS who's always posting in the OM/OW forum trying to blame the OP for a MP's marital problems.

[OpenBook]

Silly, then why did you agree with horses on this one?

 

Because she said "bad choice in men", not "bad men". And I still agree with her completely. Call me silly and any other names you can think of, if it makes you feel any better. I'm still going to call it like I see it.

[OpenBook]

OB, even when the a BS suspects something is off and goes to the WS, they are good at lying. It happened to me. I asked questions, there were always very reasonable explanations. And at the time I didn't have a reason to distrust him. He had always traveled, called me, came home when he said he would....so on and so forth. If a cheating spouse is dead set on being the best liar in the world and the spouse isn't the jealous or suspicious type, you really are clueless. I honestly believed he was just NPD and an a$$ in general, not a cheating a$$ too.

 

Bent, I'm trying to wrap my brain around that, I just can't get it done. My marriage ended up being a really bad idea, but it was nothing compared to what you had to deal with. It doesn't surprise me (with all the other red flags about his character) that he would also cheat. What DOES surprise me is why you married him in the first place.

[Adunaphel]

But life is really not a Harlequin romance novel. It's not all moonlight, dreamy romantic dinners, walks by the ocean, and sexy dalliances. The garbage needs to be taken out, the kids taken to school and soccer games, medical appointments, taxes, work, and bills. All these mundane, drudgery filled things might make someone THINK they are unhappy, but even if they find a new person and leave their spouse for said person, all these mundane things will eventually creep back into their everyday lives.

 

I think that there are a lot of shades between suffering from repeated abuse and incapability of realizing that life is not a romance novel.

 

Can we separate leaving and cheating?

 

I am thinking of a few possible situations... one or both partners no longer like the other's personality... they have grown apart... there is lack of communication... there is lack of affection... no kissing, no hand holding, no affectionate gestures... one of the partners always has to make the first step (I am not talking about sex, but about 'passive' personality)... one of the partners voices his/her needs and the other turns a blind ear... any other situation that is not *so* serious to make others scream to get away from the relationship but still more serious than being fed up with taking the rubbish out or taking kids to school.

I am also thinking of cases where someone realizes a bit too late that he is not that compatible with the person he/she married.

 

Let's assume the person decides to leave, without cheating, for any of those reasons (or for other reasons, or for a combination of them).

 

Would you still think that they just do not realize that life is not a romance novel?

 

Some people cheat, and leave. Or cheat before leaving. Or decide to leave, cheat and actually leave. Or cheat, more or less consciously, to make it easier to leave.

Despicable as cheating might be, I do not think it takes away from their reasons to leave.

 

Also... I do not think that people who are just looking for a more exciting alternative to daily family activicties are the ones who leave.

[whichwayisup]

Sorry OB, I meant to put a in there. When I call someone silly it's an affectionate thing, not a negative thing.

[GreenEyedLady]

So then you're saying that most affairs ARE of the type merely for an exciting alternative to daily family activites? Because, as we have all seen here on LS, most MP do NOT leave the marriage after D Day unless shoved out the door by the BS.

 

You know what I have noticed?

 

That most A R's that are discovered before separation rarely recover. The MM is then put on the defensive, guilt is magnified etc.

 

Whereas if the MP simply leaves, gives whatever reason for the split and the affair is not discovered until after separation or made to seem like he is dating right away, the partners fare better.

 

It also makes for a more amicable D.

[Adunaphel]

So then you're saying that most affairs ARE of the type merely for an exciting alternative to daily family activites? Because, as we have all seen here on LS, most MP do NOT leave the marriage after D Day unless shoved out the door by the BS.

 

Let's say that I think that most affairs have a big cake-eating component (or more MM would either leave, or confess, or be the one to quit the affair before (not after!) the BS suspects.

 

I also think that some of the WS who choose not to leave genuinely feel in love with the OP.

 

What I do not get is people who have affairs and feel in love with both women (or men). but that's a different subject entirely.

[Adunaphel]

You know what I have noticed?

 

That most A R's that are discovered before separation rarely recover. The MM is then put on the defensive, guilt is magnified etc.

 

Whereas if the MP simply leaves, gives whatever reason for the split and the affair is not discovered until after separation or made to seem like he is dating right away, the partners fare better.

 

It also makes for a more amicable D.

 

I also noticed this...

and my MM considered, and half-tried to do something similar... but failed.

 

Do you think it has to do with the BS having partly moved on emotionally?

Or do you think it's more of a "he cheated but at least he had the decency to leave me instead of continuing the affair behind my back" kind of thing?

Or perhaps it's more like "so you cheated? thank you for leaving and sparing me the trouble to kick you out"?

[Owl]

Actually, I think it has to do with his having emotionally seperated and distanced himself ENOUGH from the BS to make this step.

 

It's a process. The longer the affair goes on, the greater the emotional seperation created by it.

 

If he's "caught", that probably means it happens before he's seperated himself enough from the BS to be comfortable with committing to divorce and a full blown relationship with the affair partner. So instead, he ends up going back to his marriage, rather than pursuing the affair.

 

But if it progresses to the point where HE INITIATES the seperation...then he's already emotionally ready to commit to the divorce, and maintain a relationship with his affair partner.

 

I'd bet that telling the spouse what the real reasons for the seperation is in that case is actually a small factor in the outcome of the affair...he's emotionally seperated himself from the BS at that point to be greatly impacted by their pain.

[GreenEyedLady]

Do you think it has to do with the BS having partly moved on emotionally?

 

I think that may be a factor.

 

But I also think if you take the "competition" out of it, the BS usually realizes that something was wrong in the M and she/he wasn't happy anyway.

 

But if the BS goes through d-day, feels competition with the AP, feels like this intruder is not going to "take" anything from her/him then you have a much more stressful situation for all involved. And usually the OP or the MP just gives up.

[GreenEyedLady]

Actually, I think it has to do with his having emotionally seperated and distanced himself ENOUGH from the BS to make this step.

 

It's a process. The longer the affair goes on, the greater the emotional seperation created by it.

 

If he's "caught", that probably means it happens before he's seperated himself enough from the BS to be comfortable with committing to divorce and a full blown relationship with the affair partner. So instead, he ends up going back to his marriage, rather than pursuing the affair.

 

But if it progresses to the point where HE INITIATES the seperation...then he's already emotionally ready to commit to the divorce, and maintain a relationship with his affair partner.

 

I'd bet that telling the spouse what the real reasons for the seperation is in that case is actually a small factor in the outcome of the affair...he's emotionally seperated himself from the BS at that point to be greatly impacted by their pain.

 

I think this is a well thought out post and explains alot on the MP's decision to leave or try and reconcile the M.

[Adunaphel]

I guess if you think you have a strong relatoinship with someone, you hope that your relationship wiill be different than the one he is exiting and that if conflict arises he will make different choices. You have to believe that the person can change.

 

Not due to the "power of your love" so to speak but because if they are leaving a bad marriage, that they will want to do things differently next time around.

 

I think this was very spot on and very well said.

 

Take a good look at NotSure's post in the infidelity section. He is a really good LIAR and has admitted this. His wife is totally CLUELESS because he has led her to believe he is happy and he loves her, and the marriage is great. Yet inside he feels the complete opposite - HOW is she to know the truth if he is lying to her?

 

MEN LIE. WOMEN LIE. Some are really good at. HOW many BS's were shocked to find out about their spouses cheating on them.

 

I have to admit that your post caused me a stronger emotional response than I would have thought. I read it just before going to bed, and this morning from the moment I woke up to the moment I exited home, I was haunted by a very unpleasant "what if he actually made it all up and lied to me for the whole time?" chain of thoughts.

I am under a lot of stress recently... and I have major jealousy issues... so it is not surprising that I tend to go for negative thoughts... yet... :confused:

 

I guess he could have lied to me for the whole time.

It is a possibility I took in serious consideration at the beginning, but as time passed this kind of thoughts faded. Until this morning, at least.

Anyway the more time passes, the more I tend to believe him.

I think it's hard to keep up for over a year with two separate sets of lies - and if he lied to me about his situation, he must have lied a lot to her, too...

It would take a monster to lie so well and for so long. And a very intelligent and cunning monster, too!

I guess I'll know for sure in time.

 

The main exceptions that I see where it wouldn't apply both ways is that the BS might not know that the WS is a cheater...(in reference to the once a cheater comment)...whereas the OW/OM knows for certain that the WS is at least "once a cheater".

 

This is very true. I guess that one of the downsides of starting a relationship with the AP is that he/she will probaly trust you less, by default, than she would trust a single guy/woman.

 

The reality is that both parties are forced to make a choice to believe the WS in some fashion or another...and whoever ends up with the WS...OW/OM or BS...is also forced to find a way to deal with rebuilding of trust after seeing what the WS is truly capable of doing.

 

It is the first time I see someone (and someone who was a BS, too!) express the idea of the ex AP having to rebuild trust, too.

Thank you for that, it sheds some ligth on a few thoughts I was having (which can be summed up in: is it okay to trust someone who said he'd leave and *did* get separated much less than I would trust a single guy?)

I realized that I basically tend to hold against him things he did/said/hide to his W... even things that have nothing to do with me!

I also remember that I used to question him a lot (within myself, mainly).

I used to ask myself from time to time questions like: why did his W lost interest in sex and (expecially) intimacy with him? What did he *do* to her to make her lose interest?

Like I was assuming it was his fault. Not fair towards him.

[Owl]

It probably gets EASIER for him to lie as the time passes...not harder.

 

It's like any other "skill"...the more you do it, the better you get at it.

 

And it's entirely possible that his wife thinks the same thing too. He can't possibly be cheating on me with someone...especially this long.

 

There's no way to know the "truth" in this situation until it all really IS out in the open for all to see. Even then, he's likely going to fight tooth and nail to minimize his responsibility for the whole situation.

 

That's one reason why so many people believe that he lies on both fronts.

 

If he ADMITTED to you that he didn't have sufficient "reason" (whatever that may be) for cheating on his wife...if he made it plain to you that the only reason he started cheating on her was because he COULD...would you be as attracted to him? Would you trust him the way that you trust him today?

 

Probably not. You likely would have never started a relationship with him in the first place, if he'd come out and said something like that to you.

 

Ergo...he's BOUND to lie to you about the whole situation. Unless of course, it really and truly is as bad as he's described. But...long time experience on this forum and others has shown countless similar stories in which is really wasn't nearly as bad as he'd claimed. Not UNTIL the affair started. Then of course it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

He says that his marriage is lousy. That lets him start an affair with someone. He begins the affair, and as a result begins emotionally distancing himself from his wife. She's hurt and confused, and starts going crazy trying to find out what's wrong. Suddenly, he DOES have that crazy, controlling wife he'd told you about originally. His marriage IS lousy...now.

 

And the thing is...this far down the rabbit hole, you'll never know which part is cause and which part is effect.

[fooled once]

I used to ask myself from time to time questions like: why did his W lost interest in sex and (expecially) intimacy with him? What did he *do* to her to make her lose interest?

Like I was assuming it was his fault. Not fair towards him

 

See, this is where I go -- why are you BELIEVING him about this? You don't know if his wife lost interest in sex -- you are only going by what he told you? He could have been having sex with her every night, but he isn't going to tell you that. He is going to want your sympathy, your nurturing, your devotion "poor guy, why did she treat him so bad? Why wouldn't she want to have sex with him".

 

Maybe, if she REALLY did lose interest in sex with him, it was because:

 

a. it was all about him

b. he made sex a chore

c. he refuses to help Johnny with homework while she got dinner ready and after dinner, he sat his butt on the couch instead of helping with the dinner dishes and bathing Suzy.

d. he stepped over the laundry on his way to change his clothes after work and instead of picking up some socks on the floor, he threw another pair down there with them.

e. he continually forgets to flush the toilet and thinks it isn't a big deal to leave pee and/or poop in the toilet.

f. when she asked him to stop on the way home and get some more milk and when he got home, he didn't have any because he "forgot" and it wasn't that big of a deal anyway; and if it is, she can go out and get it.

 

You have NO idea what truly goes on in their daily lives and no idea what goes on in their marriage - EXCEPT what he tells you and you really don't think he is LYING or exaggerating? Does he ever tell you the crappy things HE does? Or is it always about that yucky wife of his?

[NoIDidn't]

You are certainly entitled to your opinion as to where I'm "coming off", even though you're wrong. But I'm not the BS who's always posting in the OM/OW forum trying to blame the OP for a MP's marital problems.

 

Now you will NEVER find a post from me that blames the OP solely for the MP's marital problems. NEVER.

 

So tell me, am *I* the "BS" that does what you allege? Asking questions about why the OW does the illogical things some often do means I'm blaming the OP for the A?

[whichwayisup]

You have NO idea what truly goes on in their daily lives and no idea what goes on in their marriage - EXCEPT what he tells you and you really don't think he is LYING or exaggerating? Does he ever tell you the crappy things HE does? Or is it always about that yucky wife of his?

 

I agree. And many BS's say that their sex lives were great during the affair, even though they don't know their husbands are cheating on them. Though the MM isn't going to tell their OW's "yeah I still have sex with my wife" because that's not going to get them more sex or keep the affair going. If MM told his OW that, then he has to deal with questions, jealously, hurt feelings, etc..and that isn't something he wants.

[Adunaphel]

If he ADMITTED to you that he didn't have sufficient "reason" (whatever that may be) for cheating on his wife...if he made it plain to you that the only reason he started cheating on her was because he COULD...would you be as attracted to him? Would you trust him the way that you trust him today?

 

Well... imagining such a situation and living it is quite different, but if I know myself I'd rather hear "I cheated on her because I could" than a "I cheated on her because I had to" sort of explanation.

I would not be confortable with it and I would not trust him, but it would be mainly because if he made plain such a thing I'd assume that he has no intention of leaving and/or he is quite happy being married to his W.

Also... "I cheated because I could" screams serial cheater to me.

 

Btw, funnily enough, this one affair started in a "would you like to have an EA with me?" kind of way. So I cannot really say it "just happened".

 

 

Ergo...he's BOUND to lie to you about the whole situation. Unless of course, it really and truly is as bad as he's described. But...long time experience on this forum and others has shown countless similar stories in which is really wasn't nearly as bad as he'd claimed. Not UNTIL the affair started. Then of course it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

He says that his marriage is lousy. That lets him start an affair with someone. He begins the affair, and as a result begins emotionally distancing himself from his wife. She's hurt and confused, and starts going crazy trying to find out what's wrong. Suddenly, he DOES have that crazy, controlling wife he'd told you about originally. His marriage IS lousy...now.

 

And the thing is...this far down the rabbit hole, you'll never know which part is cause and which part is effect.

 

While you were posting, I edited my other post to ask you a question, but looks like I already got the answer.

I was about to get defensive, but I actually am under the impression that he went from a "I'd be happily surprised to see my W fight for our marriage, but I do not think she will" to a "it's too late for waking up now" attitude.

I am not sure it is because of the A, though.

[bentnotbroken]

Bent, I'm trying to wrap my brain around that, I just can't get it done. My marriage ended up being a really bad idea, but it was nothing compared to what you had to deal with. It doesn't surprise me (with all the other red flags about his character) that he would also cheat. What DOES surprise me is why you married him in the first place.

 

 

I married him at 20. I loved him. The traits that I now know are NPD, I saw as love. He took care of me. I didn't see that as form of control. I loved him in the midst of hating him. My own depression added to his control. I was willing to believe that I was the reason for his actions(in my heart), but in my head I knew what they there was something wrong. I have no other defense than I loved him. Maybe somewhere in the back of my heart I still do. He gave me two of the greatest gifts that I don't deserve.

[NoIDidn't]

I married him at 20. I loved him. The traits that I now know are NPD, I saw as love. He took care of me. I didn't see that as form of control. I loved him in the midst of hating him. My own depression added to his control. I was willing to believe that I was the reason for his actions(in my heart), but in my head I knew what they there was something wrong. I have no other defense than I loved him. Maybe somewhere in the back of my heart I still do. He gave me two of the greatest gifts that I don't deserve.

 

 

Oh, Bent, ((((hugs)))). Anyone that blames you for "picking" him is still working through their own demons for "picking" whatever/whoever they picked.

 

At 20, I was dating a guy with NPD traits and didn't know it myself then either.

 

Getting back to the topic in this thread, you married him, you didn't cheat with him. Big difference. That, and you aren't here making excuses for him OR yourself now.

[whichwayisup]

Don't we ALL go through crappy relationships at some point in our lives? What we know now is NOT what we knew then. Make the wrong choice in men? I know at age 20 the guy I was dating was a complete A-hole, and a heavy drinker, yet did it occur to me that it wouldn't last? NO. I thought he was "it".. Obviously it wasn't and boy am I glad I didn't marry that guy..

[Adunaphel]

See, this is where I go -- why are you BELIEVING him about this? You don't know if his wife lost interest in sex -- you are only going by what he told you?

 

About why I am believing him.... I chose to do so. I believe that he was not having much sex with his W, and that it was not the main problem in their marriage.

I admit the possibility of the existence of MM who stop having sex with their wives after starting an affair. I would not be here posting about it otherwise - I'd already be out of it.

 

He could have been having sex with her every night, but he isn't going to tell you that.

 

I do not think this is the case... but if he is still having sex with her, everything else he told me is a lie.

 

he is either honest with me, or it is a whole castle of lies i am dealing with - you take one away, the architecture falls like a castle of cards.

 

He is going to want your sympathy, your nurturing, your devotion "poor guy, why did she treat him so bad? Why wouldn't she want to have sex with him".

 

Well, he never cried on my shoulder for not getting enough sex. And he never said that having little sex was *the* problem.

 

Maybe, if she REALLY did lose interest in sex with him, it was because:

 

a. it was all about him

b. he made sex a chore

c. he refuses to help Johnny with homework while she got dinner ready and after dinner, he sat his butt on the couch instead of helping with the dinner dishes and bathing Suzy.

d. he stepped over the laundry on his way to change his clothes after work and instead of picking up some socks on the floor, he threw another pair down there with them.

e. he continually forgets to flush the toilet and thinks it isn't a big deal to leave pee and/or poop in the toilet.

f. when she asked him to stop on the way home and get some more milk and when he got home, he didn't have any because he "forgot" and it wasn't that big of a deal anyway; and if it is, she can go out and get it.

 

My worst suspicion about why she might have lost interest in having sex with him is much worse, actually.

 

You have NO idea what truly goes on in their daily lives and no idea what goes on in their marriage - EXCEPT what he tells you and you really don't think he is LYING or exaggerating? Does he ever tell you the crappy things HE does? Or is it always about that yucky wife of his?

 

No, I don't. Yes, he does. And I'm quite sure he would not allow anyone to call his W yucky.

[alphamale]

i confess that i'm floating on air since susan called. i feel like a little girl in a doll shop. tee hee hee

 

[sadintexas]

Yet they still stay married to us bitter BW's even when they are free to go be with the OW.

 

Not without having to lose a lot of time with theirs kids and half of their stuff (in most cases).

[sadintexas]

So, here is what I don't get. If a MM wants to be with an OW why wouldn't he tell the truth when his wife asks him? It seems to me that a BW who questions her H is giving him an out. If she asks, then she is usually somewhat prepared for an answer. If he lies about it, he has lost the perfect opportunity to leave and be with the OW. Why doesn't he?

 

How insulting to an OW that he isn't even willing to honest about her when asked point blank.

 

Wouldn't it be even more insulting to the BW to lie to her about it?

 

I would suspect that a MM wouldn't tell the truth because I have never personally seen a spouse, betrayed or not, simply say "okay, you don't want to be with me anymore, that's cool". It's far more complicated than that.

 

And frankly, if he can have his fun with the OW, whether he truly loves her or not, and can avoid the BW at home and not have to disrupt all of the OTHER parts of the marriage that would have to be sorted out, why wouldn't he? He's not HAVING to make a choice, and he's not HAVING to do the hard work to do things properly because no one is really holding him accountable. The OW usually goes back after her ultimatums, and the BW either doesn't know, or also gives ultimatums that she doesn't stick by.

 

I bet, if some of these MM knew that if he told the BW the truth, and she would say it's okay, we'll be fair about this, we'll split time with the kids 50/50 and we'll each take what we put into this marriage (fair division) and the MM could trust that was the truth they would do it. But we all know THAT'S not the reaction he'll get lol.

 

I know my xMM talked about guys at work that were divorced. They lost a lot of material possessions and they took a financial hit and the exW's were still calling all the time, needing things, being witchy and ugly, etc. He said what's the point in losing your crap if you can't lose her?

[NoIDidn't]

Wouldn't it be even more insulting to the BW to lie to her about it?

 

 

 

Of course its insulting to be lied to when you asked a direct question. But this thread isn't about lying to the BW. This thread is about the OW and the things she judges the BW about.

 

How can one sit in judgment about a person not trusting someone when you KNOW why they can't trust them and are actually taking part in the problem?