Anyone else feel like men get less out of relationshisp than women?

[Woggle]

I admit I do have some class resentment towards both male and female yuppies because of the way they look at the poor and working class like we are pieces of trash. These are the people that are ruining the place I grew up and making it impossible for anybody but the filthy rich to live in New York. I don't condone crime but when a person's back is against the wall they will do anything to pull themselves out of poverty. They think that their mcmansions and fancy condos make them superior when they don't. All they care about is money and status.

 

Many of my issues with women come from the fact that a good deal of them are full of it. They go on and on about how there are no good men and how men are cheating scum but they are the ones who lose their minds chasing after this scum. I have become very jaded after seeing hardworking and faithful men who bust their asses for their woman and their familes get their hearts ripped in half because their wife wanted to find herself or she was bored or whatever reason. Then after they slit he has to fight tooth and nail to be a father but let him be one day late and one penny short on the support check and all hell breaks loose. This happens so much around me that it doesn't shock me anymore. Even if they manage to stay together they are stuck with a woman that resents the hell out of him and won't him touch her.

 

I also notice how women will throw a fit if a man so much as looks at a playboy but she can have affairs and that is all okay because that is just a part of finding herself. They high five each other over it and consider it a part of female empowerment. This is why I praise that basketball player for dodging the bullet while he still has the chance and why I think Hugh Hefner is a good role model to men. It is better for a man to be a player because from what I have seen the commited family man gets dumped on. I know all women are not like this but after seeing the same pattern repeat itself over and over and over again around me how can I ignore what is right in front of me?

[grogster]

So, if I told you high school education & solid lower middle class, you wouldn't believe that? Or, to flip the coin, if I said PhD level education in a solid upper middle class you'd believe that?

 

I just don't know.

 

I lack sufficient information.

 

My best guess--you're somewhere in between those two extremes.

[grogster]

I admit I do have some class resentment towards both male and female yuppies because of the way they look at the poor and working class like we are pieces of trash. These are the people that are ruining the place I grew up and making it impossible for anybody but the filthy rich to live in New York. I don't condone crime but when a person's back is against the wall they will do anything to pull themselves out of poverty. They think that their mcmansions and fancy condos make them superior when they don't. All they care about is money and status.

 

Many of my issues with women come from the fact that a good deal of them are full of it. They go on and on about how there are no good men and how men are cheating scum but they are the ones who lose their minds chasing after this scum. I have become very jaded after seeing hardworking and faithful men who bust their asses for their woman and their familes get their hearts ripped in half because their wife wanted to find herself or she was bored or whatever reason. Then after they slit he has to fight tooth and nail to be a father but let him be one day late and one penny short on the support check and all hell breaks loose. This happens so much around me that it doesn't shock me anymore. Even if they manage to stay together they are stuck with a woman that resents the hell out of him and won't him touch her.

 

I also notice how women will throw a fit if a man so much as looks at a playboy but she can have affairs and that is all okay because that is just a part of finding herself. They high five each other over it and consider it a part of female empowerment. This is why I praise that basketball player for dodging the bullet while he still has the chance and why I think Hugh Hefner is a good role model to men. It is better for a man to be a player because from what I have seen the commited family man gets dumped on. I know all women are not like this but after seeing the same pattern repeat itself over and over and over again around me how can I ignore what is right in front of me?

 

That's cool, wog. Now I know where you're coming from.

[Trialbyfire]

I admit I do have some class resentment towards both male and female yuppies because of the way they look at the poor and working class like we are pieces of trash.

Umm...Woggle...they work too...

 

This is another chip on your shoulders. Can you not just live life without resenting every who isn't like you? Be happy with your marriage to a warm and loving woman, while at the same time, getting your financial house into order, for your retirement. If you think about it, your home is already paid off while you're close to or barely 30. You're already light years ahead of the majority.

 

Positives, not negatives, including gender warfare.

[Woggle]

I have no issue with anybody that works hard to but most corporate yuppies are of the Bernie Madoff and Kenneth Lay variety. They get rich by screwing over other people. The AIG executives get millions as a reward for pretty much ruining the company but the actual workers who make things run unionize and they are considered greedy. Thes yuppies are the same people who listen to rightwing talk radio and whine about immigation yet hire mexicans to do all their housework or even worse move production to a third world country where they can enslave children in a sweatshop. If you call them out on any of this they call you communist though.

[Trialbyfire]

I have no issue with anybody that works hard to but most corporate yuppies are of the Bernie Madoff and Kenneth Lay variety. They get rich by screwing over other people. The AIG executives get millions as a reward for pretty much ruining the company but the actual workers who make things run unionize and they are considered greedy. Thes yuppies are the same people who listen to rightwing talk radio and whine about immigation yet hire mexicans to do all their housework or even worse move production to a third world country where they can enslave children in a sweatshop. If you call them out on any of this they call you communist though.

Do mean just like all poor people or anyone who comes from "grass roots" type of family home, are criminals and will steal your family silver, if you even have them over for dinner?

[HsMomma]

I just don't know.

 

I lack sufficient information.

 

My best guess--you're somewhere in between those two extremes.

 

You're exactly right - I am indeed between the 2 extremes. I guess I was just thinking that it is incredibly difficult to judge people's class by who they appear to be online.

[Sam Spade]

Does giving birth count as contibuting something meaningful?

 

No, any ho that can't read can do it.

(And that's precisely why I don't understand that the big fus about giving birth is . It's painful, we get it, get over it. Not to mention that the present day birth, with all the medications and c-sections at the slightest provocation etc. is not the big deal it used to be).

[grogster]

Unless you're the kind of woman who doesn't want their baby drugged up at birth like me and you go it without the drugs. And I don't know ANY woman who wants her stomach all sliced up "at the slightest provocation."

 

 

Nice avatar, donna. Sublte.

 

You wouldn't be baiting some of the Shack's more manly men, would you?

[Sam Spade]

Unless you're the kind of woman who doesn't want their baby drugged up at birth like me and you go it without the drugs. And I don't know ANY woman who wants her stomach all sliced up "at the slightest provocation."

 

That's fine, and I don't want to trivialize the trauma of childbirth, I'm sure it's awful. My point is that giving birth is *not* a personal *accomplishment*. this is what mother nature decided and ALL women give birth - regardless of their traits, character qualities (or lack of). I'm simply tired of being told that because I can't give birth I have to put up with such and such.

This is exactly the equivalent of me saying that because I have a penis I should rule the world. And before suggesting that having one doesn't "hurt", refer back to all the nasty and dangerous jobs that men have to and do do just because - you guessed it - they have a penis.

So, as far as I'm concerned, give birth and stop whining about it .

[theBrokenMuse]

No, any ho that can't read can do it.

(And that's precisely why I don't understand that the big fus about giving birth is . It's painful, we get it, get over it. Not to mention that the present day birth, with all the medications and c-sections at the slightest provocation etc. is not the big deal it used to be).

 

I nearly died but, yeah it's no big deal at all. *facepalm*

[HsMomma]

Many of my issues with women come from the fact that a good deal of them are full of it. They go on and on about how there are no good men and how men are cheating scum but they are the ones who lose their minds chasing after this scum. I have become very jaded after seeing hardworking and faithful men who bust their asses for their woman and their familes get their hearts ripped in half because their wife wanted to find herself or she was bored or whatever reason. Then after they slit he has to fight tooth and nail to be a father but let him be one day late and one penny short on the support check and all hell breaks loose. This happens so much around me that it doesn't shock me anymore. Even if they manage to stay together they are stuck with a woman that resents the hell out of him and won't him touch her.

 

 

And Woggle, what about those women (like me) who were hardworking & faithful wives who busted their butts for their men but whose hearts were ripped out when those same men decided to go elsewhere (outside the marriage) for affairs? What about those of us who ended up doing our dam*dest to raise the children these men fathered with little or no support (financially or otherwise) and who had to comfort those same children when "Daddy" didn't show up to pick them up when he was supposed to?

 

This was my EXACT situation with my ex-h, so don't get on your high horse about it being only women who sh*t on men - I did absolutely NOTHING to deserve what happened to me, yet it happened. Do I therefore resent ALL men because of what one louse did to me? No...that would be grossly unfair to the good & faithful men (who are, apparently, the only men you know) who ARE out there.

[HsMomma]

This is exactly the equivalent of me saying that because I have a penis I should rule the world. And before suggesting that having one doesn't "hurt", refer back to all the nasty and dangerous jobs that men have to and do do just because - you guessed it - they have a penis.

So, as far as I'm concerned, give birth and stop whining about it .

 

So, Sam, as far as I'mconcerned, do your nasty/dangerous jobs and stop whining about it.

[Sam Spade]

So, Sam, as far as I'mconcerned, do your nasty/dangerous jobs and stop whining about it.

 

It's only fair , as long as we extend the non-whining contract to cover raising the kids and keeping the household running --> with all the modern appliances and conveniences this is not the full time job it used to be, especially with us guys now helping out at home, so please go out every once in a while and also make a couple of bucks, if in air conditioned office . there's hardly any excuse for being a SAHM other than being filthy rich or lazy (or both).

[grogster]

And Woggle, what about those women (like me) who were hardworking & faithful wives who busted their butts for their men but whose hearts were ripped out when those same men decided to go elsewhere (outside the marriage) for affairs? What about those of us who ended up doing our dam*dest to raise the children these men fathered with little or no support (financially or otherwise) and who had to comfort those same children when "Daddy" didn't show up to pick them up when he was supposed to?

 

This was my EXACT situation with my ex-h, so don't get on your high horse about it being only women who sh*t on men - I did absolutely NOTHING to deserve what happened to me, yet it happened. Do I therefore resent ALL men because of what one louse did to me? No...that would be grossly unfair to the good & faithful men (who are, apparently, the only men you know) who ARE out there.

 

HsMomma, you're too rational. You refuse to indict an entire gender based on your horrid experience with one man. How can you not?

 

You're not being over-emotional, high strung or illogical. You're not thinking with your Heart. You're not thinking the way some men expect you to think. What's your problem?

 

The irony is too sweet: the Shack women think like "men," while some Shack men "think" (I use that term loosely) like "women"-- emotionally.

[HsMomma]

It's only fair , as long as we extend the non-whining contract to cover raising the kids and keeping the household running --> with all the modern appliances and conveniences this is not the full time job it used to be, especially with us guys now helping out at home, so please go out every once in a while and also make a couple of bucks, if in air conditioned office . there's hardly any excuse for being a SAHM other than being filthy rich or lazy (or both).

 

Even amidst ALL my whining , I still held a full-time job while raising the kids and keeping the household running...'course I couldn't afford all those modern appliances & conveniences at the time, but that's beside the point, right? I have worked full-time since I was 17 years old (while going to school as well), but golly gee, I can't tell ya how much I appreciate you wonderful guys helping out so much...especially my ex-h, who was GONE since I kicked his a$$ to the curb when he decided having affairs was acceptable. I'll enjoy my air-conditioned office, thanks, 'cause I've EARNED it...not by whining, but by hard work.

 

And yeah, being a SAHM is really ALL about being lazy......have you ever even MET a SAHM? I guarantee she works as hard as (or harder than) you.

[HsMomma]

HsMomma, you're too rational. You refuse to indict an entire gender based on your horrid experience with one man. How can you not?

 

You're not being over-emotional, high strung or illogical. You're not thinking with your Heart. You're not thinking the way some men expect you to think. What's your problem?

 

The irony is too sweet: the Shack women think like "men," while some Shack men "think" (I use that term loosely) like "women"-- emotionally.

 

Gosh, Grog, I don't know...maybe I have too much testosterone for a woman?? I feel bad that I can't live down to Woggle's expectations of me - try though I might - by indicting the entire male gender.

 

I'm gonna go slink off into a corner now & think about how I can learn to hate all men & everything they stand for, ok? Let me know if I miss anything interesting in the meantime!

[Sam Spade]

I don't think anyone is saying we can't get things off our chest from time to time. HOWEVER, this entire thread is a "finding fault with women" thread. If my man wants to come home and tell me about his lousy day at work, I'm certainly going to listen and commiserate with him. But I know he isn't going to blame ME for his lousy day.

 

See the difference?

Of course, and such threads always spin out of control .

Also, I just read exerpts of the book (The Manipulated Man) the OP refers to. it is clearly mor of an sarcastic thought experiment (or at least I'd like to think so), but some of the ramblings are hard to resist . For example, why is it that there are still not as many women scientists and engineers as men, given that every concievable barrier to entry in these fields has been removed for decades!

I refuse to believe that there are any differences in intelligence between genders, but I am inclined to believe that yes, women's priorities gravitate towards nesting and all, which is fine, except that this requires resources and often times men are being scolded for not providing them. So, instead of keeping trying to find faults with the system, why is it so hard to accept that many women are simply unwilling to make the sacrifices that a succesful scientific or engineering career requires? So, there is no need to call this a "fault", but is this not a major point of divergence that's very hard to reconcile?

 

There are so many perfectly normal and loving guys that would rather go on a trip to another country or whatever, rather than work extra hard just so they could pay for a bigger house etc. , but good luck finding a wife that would have any of that .

[Sam Spade]

Even amidst ALL my whining , I still held a full-time job while raising the kids and keeping the household running...'course I couldn't afford all those modern appliances & conveniences at the time, but that's beside the point, right? I have worked full-time since I was 17 years old (while going to school as well), but golly gee, I can't tell ya how much I appreciate you wonderful guys helping out so much...especially my ex-h, who was GONE since I kicked his a$$ to the curb when he decided having affairs was acceptable. I'll enjoy my air-conditioned office, thanks, 'cause I've EARNED it...not by whining, but by hard work.

 

And yeah, being a SAHM is really ALL about being lazy......have you ever even MET a SAHM? I guarantee she works as hard as (or harder than) you.

 

Cudos, on buying your own stuff

 

as for the SAHMS - puleeeze . It takes HALF AN HOUR/1 HOUR a day to keep an the average house clean and in good condition: vacuum, put the dishes in the dishwasher, put the clothes in the washing machine, drop of the dry cleaning, wipe the kitchen floor. Go grossery shopping on Sunday, do some extra cleaning on the weekend if necessary. 'Hard work' my AZZZ :mad::mad:.

 

Same with kids: drop them off at daycare in the morning, pick them up in the evening, play 2 hours before bed. It's a stresful life for sure, but none of the above justifies staying at home ALL DAY LONG .

[redtail]

etc...

The irony is too sweet: the Shack women think like "men," while some Shack men "think" (I use that term loosely) like "women"-- emotionally.

 

Maybe there is a lesson to be learned here, the "typical" gender roles are obsolete. While the role of reproduction is absolute, that doesn't mean one needs to act in accordance to their gender as dictated by some historical tradition that no longer serves a purpose.

 

Strong, intelligent women are sexy. Emotionally in touch, sensitive men doesn't reduce their masculinity. On second thought, they may have less opportunities to reproduce (get laid)...

[grogster]

Maybe there is a lesson to be learned here, the "typical" gender roles are obsolete. While the role of reproduction is absolute, that doesn't mean one needs to act in accordance to their gender as dictated by some historical tradition that no longer serves a purpose.

 

Strong, intelligent women are sexy. Emotionally in touch, sensitive men doesn't reduce their masculinity. On second thought, they may have less opportunities to reproduce (get laid)...

 

Yep, nature can be cruel.

[HsMomma]

Cudos, on buying your own stuff

 

as for the SAHMS - puleeeze . It takes HALF AN HOUR/1 HOUR a day to keep an the average house clean and in good condition: vacuum, put the dishes in the dishwasher, put the clothes in the washing machine, drop of the dry cleaning, wipe the kitchen floor. Go grossery shopping on Sunday, do some extra cleaning on the weekend if necessary. 'Hard work' my AZZZ :mad::mad:.

 

Same with kids: drop them off at daycare in the morning, pick them up in the evening, play 2 hours before bed. It's a stresful life for sure, but none of the above justifies staying at home ALL DAY LONG .

 

And kudos right back to you for buying YOUR own as well - I'm proud of you, Sam:confused: - don't need/want/expect kudos for making my own way - that's just absurd.

 

As for the whole SAHM thing, obviously you've never really spent any time with one. I work full-time outside the home & come home each day to have to: cook a meal (oops, you forgot about that one, huh?), clean up the kitchen, do laundry, help with homework, actually TALK with my family, etc., etc., etc. SAHM's don't usually take the kids to daycare, Sam, that's why they STAY HOME. Geez! Don't judge 'em til you try it. I'm certain you'd be surprised & my guess is, not pleasantly so...no real time for all those daytime dramas & bon-bons.

[hotgurl]

Cudos, on buying your own stuff

 

as for the SAHMS - puleeeze . It takes HALF AN HOUR/1 HOUR a day to keep an the average house clean and in good condition: vacuum, put the dishes in the dishwasher, put the clothes in the washing machine, drop of the dry cleaning, wipe the kitchen floor. Go grossery shopping on Sunday, do some extra cleaning on the weekend if necessary. 'Hard work' my AZZZ :mad::mad:.

 

Same with kids: drop them off at daycare in the morning, pick them up in the evening, play 2 hours before bed. It's a stresful life for sure, but none of the above justifies staying at home ALL DAY LONG .

 

why would the kids' be at daycare if she was a SAHM?

 

Also infants and toddlers require a lot of work and constant attention esp if you have more than one. So yes it is a full time job.

 

Plus it takes me 4 hours to clean my house when my family trashes it so I have no idea what your are talking about 1-2 hours. And I do 9 loads of laundry a week. and that takes days because we have a crappy dryer

[Sam Spade]

And kudos right back to you for buying YOUR own as well - I'm proud of you, Sam:confused: - don't need/want/expect kudos for making my own way - that's just absurd.

 

As for the whole SAHM thing, obviously you've never really spent any time with one. I work full-time outside the home & come home each day to have to: cook a meal (oops, you forgot about that one, huh?), clean up the kitchen, do laundry, help with homework, actually TALK with my family, etc., etc., etc. SAHM's don't usually take the kids to daycare, Sam, that's why they STAY HOME. Geez! Don't judge 'em til you try it. I'm certain you'd be surprised & my guess is, not pleasantly so...no real time for all those daytime dramas & bon-bons.

 

 

I'm not relenting on this one . My mother was a single mother who raised 2 kids (who turned out just fine, thank you very much) while working full time and maintaining spotless house. To hear how not working and spending all of your time at home instead is hard work is what's absurd, and quite frankly - incredibly insulting towards people who actually do it all.

That's why I haven't met and will not meet a 100% SAHM - I despise the very idea of such creature .

[Taramere]

Strong, intelligent women are sexy. Emotionally in touch, sensitive men doesn't reduce their masculinity. On second thought, they may have less opportunities to reproduce (get laid)...

 

I don't think an excessive amount of sensitivity helps anyone in the mating game. Sensitive people generally tend to be concerned with the feelings of others, and I think that makes them less likely to thrive on the kind of competitive or ruthless aspects of the dating game where somebody is going to end up in some degree of emotional pain. Hence the nice guy/girl finishing last thing.

 

The sensitivity is good in terms of understanding what makes the other person tick, having good self awareness, keeping a relationship going and so on....but it's not usually an asset in a cut throat mating game situation. Even in a fairly solid relationship between two fairly sensitive individuals, if a third party takes a fancy to one of those individuals, the cut throat mating game situation can re-emerge.

 

Neither gender is immune from infidelity to a partner. A very sensitive man may, once he's partnered, find that he's suddenly far more attractive to the opposite sex (partly because women see him in the "good boyfriend/husband role, and want a piece of it). I think exactly the same can be said for women. A relationship will give a sensitive woman a chance to shine (in the role of partner) and men who may not previously have been interested in her will suddenly regard her in a new, more attractive light.

 

And because there's so much emphasis on being successful in the mating game, suddenly being presented with an opportunity to feel successful (eg by cheating on a partner, or leaving them for someone who long term isn't going to be such a good bet) might be too much to resist for some people. The opportunity to feel like the exciting bad boy/girl for a change might be too much.

 

Regardless of gender, I think choosing a partner wisely is a very tricky thing....and is always going to involve a leap of faith. The development of any close, trusting bond requires a leap of faith on both sides. The OP's agenda (not an uncommon one) seems to involve convincing others that the leap of faith isn't worth it. Or perhaps he's looking for some miraculous outcome whereby a stranger on a message board will convince him that it is worth it.