Anyone else feel like men get less out of relationshisp than women?

[HsMomma]

Wow, Stung - you've taken on such a great deal of responsibility. I'm impressed by your strength & resolve to do right by the kids. You are amazing! Additionally, I'm quite impressed with your way of expressing yourself!

 

Seems to me that the first point you brought up with Sam in your last post was absolutely spot-on...previous generations of mothers didn't have nearly the choices TO work outside the home except at mostly menial jobs which paid little or nothing; that would be WHY a great deal of them were SAHMs.

 

I for one champion anyone who has the love, dedication & fortitude to BE a SAHM - it's one of the toughest jobs in the world, but the benefits, in my mind are priceless...the paycheck, not so much!

[Woggle]

I have nothing against SAHMs but I don't think I would ever want to be married to one.

[redtail]

I have nothing against SAHMs but I don't think I would ever want to be married to one.

 

In your case Woggle, I'm sure the feelings mutual...

[Woggle]

In your case Woggle, I'm sure the feelings mutual...

 

It probably is. I have interest in being a provider that only exists to keep her in her standard of living.

[hotgurl]

It probably is. I have interest in being a provider that only exists to keep her in her standard of living.

 

I wonder if your feelings have to do with where you are living.

 

you seem to be confusing trophy/desperate housewives of NJ with actualy STAHM

 

two different animals.

[Woggle]

I wonder if your feelings have to do with where you are living.

 

you seem to be confusing trophy/desperate housewives of NJ with actualy STAHM

 

two different animals.

 

No I just see how more often than not provider men become the focal point of a woman's rage when she feels she has lost herself and has no identity left. I won't let that happen plus if we do divorce I won't get raked over the coals financially.

The Desperate houswives of NJ do not represent everybody from this state.

[Sam Spade]

Mothers staying home with their children was an option unavailable to all previous generations? I think you are deeply confused or wildly misinformed.

 

You did not, in your previous posts, say that it was a fine choice. You said that you despised women who stayed home with their children, and that they were universally lazy. You also implied that it was some sort of method for running the fathers into the ground.

 

Daycare in my area costs a fortune, I don't know about where you live. I worked all my life, part-time while I was in school, full-time while I was first acclimating to having joint custody over my stepdaughter and two goddaughters. I became a SAHM recently when we had our son, still an infant. Our girls are old enough to go to school, and they had lessons and daycare in the afternoons; adding the cost of full-day care for an infant would have been too much. My choosing to stay home with our son and take care of the girls after school most days was a good financial choice for us; also my partner and I both feel strongly that having a parent stay with the child in the early stages of development if possible is a good idea. He felt more strongly about it than I did, frankly, as I went to daycare...but the kind of small, personalized daycare that I started going to as an older baby costs an arm and a leg nowadays in my area.

 

My life was easier when I worked full-time and then picked up the girls from day care. Then I had lunchtimes to myself to do whatever I wanted, my subway commute time to unwind, and my partner helped out more around the house. Also, I had other adults to socialize with every day as a way to let off steam, which was great and something I should have appreciated more while I had it.

 

It takes more than half an hour per day to clean up after a man, three girls, a baby, and our various pets. The amount of laundry we generate is insane, the idea of us getting by on a load a week is laughable. We live in a highrise so the machines are in the subbasement and shared with all the other units in the building. The dishwasher needs to be run at least twice every day, not including pots and pans that need to be handscrubbed. The floors need to be cleaned and vacuumed every day as the baby is crawling and the pets and kids track in all kinds of crap somehow even though we don't even have a yard. The girls need to be ferried to Taekwondo and sports and they need help with their homework; one has a learning disability and needs significant time devoted to helping her with her reading skills. My infant son is colicky, has acid reflux, and usually can't be put down for very long, and is also a terrible sleeper, so I'm up with him half the night as well, while his father sleeps to be fresh for work the next day. Babies need a lot more than you seem to think they do. And of course, in between all those long luxurious hours I spend curled on my couch eating bon-bons and wondering what new ways I can come up with to make my man more henpecked and miserable, I find the time to handle all the kids' AND my adult male partner's medical and dental appointments and take care of the bills and cook for everybody and pack lunches and give all the kids' baths and clean the cat vomit off the carpets and read books on child psychology because one of my goddaughters has nightmares almost every night and has since her father went crazy and tried to commit suicide in their bathroom before he was committed, before their mother ran away.

 

I never said my life was horrible. This is the choice that I made and I'm sticking to it for another couple of years. I love my stepdaughter, goddaughters, and son, and I want to try to spend a few years making our family foundation rock solid and doing what's best for them...but I will be going 'back' to work in the future, because, frankly, in many ways it's easier that way. So no, I don't find your 'strong opinion' that I'm a laughable, despicable soccer mom taking the easy, lazy way out endearing whatsoever. My own strong opinion is that you are talking out of your ass.

 

 

Sounds like we're talking past each other. You are merely describing a normal work filled day. Adults have responsibilities, and meet them without making too much fuss about it. The single thing I am rebelling against is painting SAHM-ing as this uber noble, uber demanging occupation. It's work, it's responsibility, and nobody deserves a badge of honor for merely doing their job and carrying their responsibility .

As for the previous generations - now that's where the woman's work at home *might* have actually been as hard as man's: feeding the livestock, taking care of the garden, doing manual laundry, walking 1 mile to get water, having to slaughter your dinner before you could cook it; etc. And what you've got? Loading the dishwasher and the washing machine every day , facuuming the floor, spending actual time the kids. Oh, lord, the horror, the horror .

Now you understand why I consider the description of the present day suburban domestic "hardships" laughable .

[hotgurl]

No I just see how more often than not provider men become the focal point of a woman's rage when she feels she has lost herself and has no identity left. I won't let that happen plus if we do divorce I won't get raked over the coals financially.

The Desperate houswives of NJ do not represent everybody from this state.

 

If you have a pre-nup you wouldn't get screwed any ways.

 

I know several STAHM and one STAHD. mostly this was done until the kids were in school full time. two kids under 5 in daycare can cost $400 a week or more so it made sense. These marriage seem very happy. It was soemthing both parents decided together.

[Woggle]

If you have a pre-nup you wouldn't get screwed any ways.

 

I know several STAHM and one STAHD. mostly this was done until the kids were in school full time. two kids under 5 in daycare can cost $400 a week or more so it made sense. These marriage seem very happy. It was soemthing both parents decided together.

 

I don't plan on having kids anyway so I guess this is not an issue for us. I also don't trust any woman period enough to be fully commited to a marriage and if she earns her own money it is much easier to kick her to the curb if she does betray me and turn on me.

[Stung]

Sounds like we're talking past each other. You are merely describing a normal work filled day. Adults have responsibilities, and meet them without making too much fuss about it. The single thing I am rebelling against is painting SAHM-ing as this uber noble, uber demanging occupation. It's work, it's responsibility, and nobody deserves a badge of honor for merely doing their job and carrying their responsibility .

As for the previous generations - now that's where the woman's work at home *might* have actually been as hard as man's: feeding the livestock, taking care of the garden, doing manual laundry, walking 1 mile to get water, having to slaughter your dinner before you could cook it; etc. And what you've got? Loading the dishwasher and the washing machine every day , facuuming the floor, spending actual time the kids. Oh, lord, the horror, the horror .

Now you understand why I consider the description of the present day suburban domestic "hardships" laughable .

 

We're not talking past each other, SS; you're talking past yourself. First you claim all SAHM's are lazy whiny do-nothings, then you say it's a work-filled day, yet you acknowledge no change in your stance. People who have actual experience with both sides of the fence (which you do not have) have brought up points you blithely ignore, and when someone addresses your erroneous 'facts' about the history of women you ignore those as well. In addition, last time I checked, men's work roles have evolved somewhat over the years as well. Now I know that next time my partner comes home from 12 + hours at the office complaining of his hard day, I can feel free to laugh at him and tell him unless he chased a mastodon off a cliff or spent hours laboring to discover fire, I don't want to hear it. I'm sure he'll appreciate that.

 

It's pretty clear that you have no real position, you've just got your big-boy crankypants on and you want to make sure we all know it's because of how some of us wimminz choose to take care of our families, for whatever misguided reason. Okay then. Since yes, I DO have a work-filled day ahead of me (24 hours of it), I'm going to stop lollygagging around the internet for now...but you have fun with that.

 

HsMomma, thank you for your kind words. For a limited time a few years ago when I was single I was my goddaughters' primary caretaker, then we had them only for summers, and now they have moved again and we are sharing custody of them with their grandmother. It's quite an experience trying to blend this family along with a new baby, and I'm not sure what this family's legal future will be, but I hope the end result will be wonderful. They are very good friends with my stepdaughter (similar ages, all under 10) and the whole trio of girls loves my son quite earnestly, so that really helps.

[hotgurl]

I don't plan on having kids anyway so I guess this is not an issue for us. I also don't trust any woman period enough to be fully commited to a marriage and if she earns her own money it is much easier to kick her to the curb if she does betray me and turn on me.

 

I understand and I am playing devils adovcate. Because I don't trust any man not enough not to screw me over. So having a job makes and exit plan easier.

[redtail]

...

It's work, it's responsibility, and nobody deserves a badge of honor for merely doing their job and carrying their responsibility

...

 

I have to completely disagree with the tone of this. In my humble opinion, this attitude breeds indifference to those jobs some consider menial. I understand that we all have responsibilities, but gratitude towards all people that contribute, especially mothers that see to it that their kids are well raised, is the right way to treat people.

 

Thanking the clerk at the store, the person who takes your toll and respecting the person is all that they ask for, not a "badge of honor".

[Sam Spade]

I have to completely disagree with the tone of this. In my humble opinion, this attitude breeds indifference to those jobs some consider menial. I understand that we all have responsibilities, but gratitude towards all people that contribute, especially mothers that see to it that their kids are well raised, is the right way to treat people.

 

Thanking the clerk at the store, the person who takes your toll and respecting the person is all that they ask for, not a "badge of honor".

 

But of course everybody's contributions should be respected . On the flip side, this also means not dispensing more respect than is due .

[Gamine]

From the OP: "Men are also trained from a very early age to view marriage as the ultimate goal of any relationship. However, a man has nothing to gain from marriage. It is instead left unexamined by men, why they should take pride in asking a woman to marry him. Women simply contend that it is the ultimate gesture of true love, and that nothing could be more romantic. In an effort to please women and cater to her happiness, men feel a strong desire to get married. However, a woman's goals are different."

 

 

The original post seems to postulate on how women have used sex to control men through the ages. If this is so, I ask the OP how someone can control another, if at all, if they don't want to be? In other words, for argument's sake... if a woman uses sex to control men to get them to serve her (as the post suggests) why are men going for it? What is it in a man that makes his desire for sex alone so fantastical that they would do and say just about anything to get it even if in the end it is contrary to their own desires or best interests?

 

My grandmother (who was almost 100 when she passed away) used to say ... "He chased her until she caught him..."

 

From a man's perspective, (according to the original post) it sounds as if 'his' independence can be found when he is no longer controlled by his nether regions.

 

To me, equality is an enigma. I do not want, nor can I be, equal to a man if equality means 'sameness'. As a woman I am not the 'same' as men and I am not the same as all other women. Many of the statements in the OP actually made me feel sad for men who see their lives as nothing more than puppets who are controlled by their need for sex.

 

My husband places his head in my lap. I fight like a wildcat for those who are vulnerable and for those I love. I have physically interceded in protecting others who were being physically bullied. In fact, men responded with horror with how I placed myself in harm's way in so doing... which I found strange. As a woman and as a wife I have picked my husband up by his bootstraps and held him up when he could not stand on his own and fought back anyone who tried to harm him. I believed in him when he no longer believed in himself... until he could believe in himself again.

 

I suppose there are weak and using examples of men and women all over the place. And, I suppose there are long tirades women could post as examples that refute the OP. However, it ultimately comes down to finding people of quality who operate from a perspective that is less about control and more about loving. Men are beautiful creatures. Women are beautiful creatures. Each possess the ability to act with true honor in life. As individuals towards one another in the world and with one another in intimate relationships and marriage. It becomes easy to control another when a relationship is about 'getting something' especially when it is something that is sex based... because it has nothing to do with the heart.

 

A woman who loves will walk through fire for her man and fight to protect him. A man who loves his woman will walk through fire for her and fight to protect her. Each in their own way.

 

There are many people on LS who are terribly self serving... the overwhelming majority of posters in some forums care nothing of integrity (OW/OM forums, for example) and govern their lives by their physical sexual desires. I don't know why people lay their lives to waste for the sake of an orgasm, or why some men allow themselves to be controlled by their sexuality to such an extent that they feel devalued by women for it and as a result of it (again, referring to the OP).

 

In fact there is truth to the OP and there is truth to those who refute the statements made. There's truth in all of it because examples of this exist everywhere... from those who agree to those who disagree. However, what we can understand from the OP is that men and women are emotional as well as physical creatures and that we must honor one another in all human dealings respecting the strengths and the frailties.

 

As a woman of high integrity I would hate to think that my husband is doing all that he does simply to get laid. And I'd hate to think that I do everything I do to make him my personal slave. I love him with what I have to offer him and it is so much more than my vagina.

[redtail]

But of course everybody's contributions should be respected . On the flip side, this also means not dispensing more respect than is due .

 

Respect, like love, can not be over dispensed. It will always come back to you. I suggest looking for reasons to respect rather than looking for ways to meter it.

[redtail]

Clipped...

As a woman of high integrity I would hate to think that my husband is doing all that he does simply to get laid. And I'd hate to think that I do everything I do to make him my personal slave. I love him with what I have to offer him and it is so much more than my vagina.

 

Wow, you're awesome!

[Sam Spade]

Respect, like love, can not be over dispensed. It will always come back to you. I suggest looking for reasons to respect rather than looking for ways to meter it.

 

This is also true. The reason I am so guarded in the context of this thread is because I am annoyed by the notion that somehow motherhood is the most noble occupation in the world , that mothers are more important than the fathers and that fathers should just suck it up and 'provide', that they wouldn't want to be around the kids anyway, and but what really matters happens at home between the mommy and the kiddo :rolleyes: etc., etc., etc.

 

The line "it's best for the kids" is as often used as a tool of manipulating men into making poor decisions (such as buying ridiculously expensive house - 'because of the good schools'), as out of genuine concern. There is a rational way to determine what's best for the kids, that doesn't have to involve stereotypes and unexamined values.

[HsMomma]

Sam, I think this whole thing is meaningless to continue to "discuss" - I put the word in quotes because basically all I see here is you trying to foist your opnions off as fact & to h*ll with what anyone else sees/thinks/believes or even LIVES on a daily basis. What exactly is it that you hope to gain by continuing the demeaning comments? I truly am curious.

[sally4sara]

This is also true. The reason I am so guarded in the context of this thread is because I am annoyed by the notion that somehow motherhood is the most noble occupation in the world ,

 

I can understand this. It would stink to live in a world where one gender's abilities where heralded as wonderful and idealized miracles, but you are not able to do them. Like.....how men act like they're better than women about EVERYTHING ELSE. C'mon Sam, so you can't give birth. That can't be changed. At least it is something you really can't do and not just things people try to convince you can't do as well. Maybe it gives you some insight as to how life is for women everyday.

 

that mothers are more important than the fathers and that fathers should just suck it up and 'provide', that they wouldn't want to be around the kids anyway, and but what really matters happens at home between the mommy and the kiddo :rolleyes: etc., etc., etc.

 

It really wasn't until I moved to the DC area that I saw so many SAHF. It still isn't the norm, but it isn't as rare as I'm use to. I ask them why they chose it and the answer is never that they always wanted to be SAHF. It is just that they earned slightly less and had a more expensive commute to work. It is never that they will do that and nothing else. And yes, the wives still come home and pitch in with the housework. It is men who think taking care of the children rather than providing is emasulating. They go from expecting women to do it to acting like they're lesser male humans if THEY do it. The more active men choose to be in caring for small children, the more important our society will think of fatherhood in general.

 

Wrap your head around that - Fatherhood is only as important to society as men are involved in being primary care givers. Right now, the task usually falls to the woman so - meh, how hard can it be; how important is it REALLY? Let it become common for men to be the ones to do it - OH CRAP! Suddenly raising kids will be something worthwhile and honorable for the difficulty of the task. :lmao:

 

The line "it's best for the kids" is as often used as a tool of manipulating men into making poor decisions (such as buying ridiculously expensive house - 'because of the good schools'), as out of genuine concern. There is a rational way to determine what's best for the kids, that doesn't have to involve stereotypes and unexamined values.

 

Men are not responsible for the choices they make? And, oh yeah, not responsible BECAUSE of women.

 

We just got back from one of the family's vacation homes. The person who bought this one did not confer with his wife before buying it. It was a poor choice for their situation. The rest of the family is visiting it to decide if it will become some other member's vacation home or if it will be sold off. This one does not belong to my fiance's father, but he has bought numerous properties. I cannot tell you how many times I get to hear from his mom about how his dad never asks her what she thinks about each place prior to purchase. HIS TAKE? It is HIS money (even though she works) and he will buy whatever he wants. I have never met a woman who has this mindset for such a large purchase. I wouldn't even buy a dining table without discussing it with my SO first.

 

But then I have to remind myself what the theme of this thread is and how little room it holds for reality or truth. We need all the room we can get for all the whining and salty tears the so much less emotional men need to shed on this site.

[Els]

I'm not relenting on this one . My mother was a single mother who raised 2 kids (who turned out just fine, thank you very much) while working full time and maintaining spotless house. To hear how not working and spending all of your time at home instead is hard work is what's absurd, and quite frankly - incredibly insulting towards people who actually do it all.

That's why I haven't met and will not meet a 100% SAHM - I despise the very idea of such creature .

 

Wow. Just wow. Well, my dad worked 13 hour days and helps out with some of the housework so he is officially better than your dad AMIRITE? Also, that gives me the right to despise the very idea of men who only work the typical 9 hours a day and do not do housework because their wife is the one maintaining the spotless house. To hear how working 9 hours a day and coming back to a clean house is hard work is what's absurd and, quite frankly, insulting towards men who do MOAR.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Sam Spade]

I can understand this. It would stink to live in a world where one gender's abilities where heralded as wonderful and idealized miracles, but you are not able to do them. Like.....how men act like they're better than women about EVERYTHING ELSE. C'mon Sam, so you can't give birth. That can't be changed. At least it is something you really can't do and not just things people try to convince you can't do as well. Maybe it gives you some insight as to how life is for women everyday.

 

 

It really wasn't until I moved to the DC area that I saw so many SAHF. It still isn't the norm, but it isn't as rare as I'm use to. I ask them why they chose it and the answer is never that they always wanted to be SAHF. It is just that they earned slightly less and had a more expensive commute to work. It is never that they will do that and nothing else. And yes, the wives still come home and pitch in with the housework. It is men who think taking care of the children rather than providing is emasulating. They go from expecting women to do it to acting like they're lesser male humans if THEY do it. The more active men choose to be in caring for small children, the more important our society will think of fatherhood in general.

 

Wrap your head around that - Fatherhood is only as important to society as men are involved in being primary care givers. Right now, the task usually falls to the woman so - meh, how hard can it be; how important is it REALLY? Let it become common for men to be the ones to do it - OH CRAP! Suddenly raising kids will be something worthwhile and honorable for the difficulty of the task. :lmao:

 

 

 

Men are not responsible for the choices they make? And, oh yeah, not responsible BECAUSE of women.

 

We just got back from one of the family's vacation homes. The person who bought this one did not confer with his wife before buying it. It was a poor choice for their situation. The rest of the family is visiting it to decide if it will become some other member's vacation home or if it will be sold off. This one does not belong to my fiance's father, but he has bought numerous properties. I cannot tell you how many times I get to hear from his mom about how his dad never asks her what she thinks about each place prior to purchase. HIS TAKE? It is HIS money (even though she works) and he will buy whatever he wants. I have never met a woman who has this mindset for such a large purchase. I wouldn't even buy a dining table without discussing it with my SO first.

 

But then I have to remind myself what the theme of this thread is and how little room it holds for reality or truth. We need all the room we can get for all the whining and salty tears the so much less emotional men need to shed on this site.

 

 

There's nothing here that I disagree with . Specifically the part about prevailing images (and their ridiculousness) about what's masculine and what's not. Well duh - just turn on the TV and start watching any sitcom - the father is usually the dutifully providing, slightly idiotic drone, the mother is the hero that manages both the household and him. It doesn't matter that any person with 1 brain cell understands that this is just crappy television. It still broadcasts and instills an image of what's normal and expected and such templates are internalized at least to some extent, whether we like it or not. I personally don't see anything emascluating in taking care of the house and taking care of the kids per se - but I really had to sit down and think about it before I realised it .

 

As for the property examples - well, those guys are jackasses . As to why some men may feel powerless over their choices, the reasons again lay in the prevailing images of what's a middle class family "supposed" to do. Like move in to the suburbs. Get in debt to provide "the best possible education" etc. It takes something a little more than common sense to resist such pressures.

[sally4sara]

There's nothing here that I disagree with . Specifically the part about prevailing images (and their ridiculousness) about what's masculine and what's not. Well duh - just turn on the TV and start watching any sitcom - the father is usually the dutifully providing, slightly idiotic drone, the mother is the hero that manages both the household and him. It doesn't matter that any person with 1 brain cell understands that this is just crappy television. It still broadcasts and instills an image of what's normal and expected and such templates are internalized at least to some extent, whether we like it or not. I personally don't see anything emascluating in taking care of the house and taking care of the kids per se - but I really had to sit down and think about it before I realised it .

 

Well then maybe we should start an ad campaign about how sexy hot SAHF are.............

 

My prediction is that once SAHFing is no longer rare, our government will take welfare, declare it for male SAHs ONLY as a yearly salary to compensate them for their HUGE act of selflessness and sacrifice. Statues will be built to fatherhood and a whole new religion will be founded where Jesus sprang full blown from god's gym bag.

"Take these, My sweaty tube socks; they are my body. The fluids you wring from them, My blood.........."

 

Till then, meh caring for kids full time? How hard can it be?

[sally4sara]

OMG, that was f'ing SWEET!!!! :lmao:

 

OOOhhh, I like your avatar Donna. He is a hot one; I'll bet he stays home and diapers baby butt.

[HsMomma]

There's nothing here that I disagree with . Specifically the part about prevailing images (and their ridiculousness) about what's masculine and what's not. Well duh - just turn on the TV and start watching any sitcom - the father is usually the dutifully providing, slightly idiotic drone, the mother is the hero that manages both the household and him. It doesn't matter that any person with 1 brain cell understands that this is just crappy television. It still broadcasts and instills an image of what's normal and expected and such templates are internalized at least to some extent, whether we like it or not. I personally don't see anything emascluating in taking care of the house and taking care of the kids per se - but I really had to sit down and think about it before I realised it .

 

 

What truly baffles me is that you seem to think that these, as YOU call them (and I happen to agree) ridiculous images from television somehow translate into RL. You aren't giving either gender any credit now, Sam...are you saying that men are so stupid that they buy into the notion that who or what they should be is determined by some tv show?? Scary notion, that!

 

I kept picturing Al Bundy while reading your post & thinking, well...if a man is dumb enough to model himself after a television character, then living in the real world will just terrify the poor darling!

[redtail]

Well then maybe we should start an ad campaign about how sexy hot SAHF are.............

 

My prediction is that once SAHFing is no longer rare, our government will take welfare, declare it for male SAHs ONLY as a yearly salary to compensate them for their HUGE act of selflessness and sacrifice. Statues will be built to fatherhood and a whole new religion will be founded where Jesus sprang full blown from god's gym bag.

"Take these, My sweaty tube socks; they are my body. The fluids you wring from them, My blood.........."

 

Till then, meh caring for kids full time? How hard can it be?

 

 

That's funny right there, I don't care who ya are...