Anyone else feel like men get less out of relationshisp than women?

[HsMomma]

I know you feel clever, but I don't see you addressing any of the real issues the OP raised. Why are men the ones sent to die in war? Why are women so poorly represented in dangerous jobs? Why do men still typically support the brunt of their families financial needs?

 

Like it or not, there are legitimate issues raised by the cited work. Mocking those issues won't make them less real.

 

Really, clv? You didn't see me talking to the OP & addressing certain of his bigger issues? Do you just skip around the posts then til you find one you can answer to?

 

Why are men the ones sent to die in war? Because MEN decided women should not be in combat situations.

 

Why are women so poorly represented in dangerous jobs? To which jobs are you specifically referring?

 

Why do men still "typically" support the brunt of their families' financial needs? Ever heard of something called the 'glass ceiling' which is what happens when women (or minorities, for that matter) may well have the same level of education, the same level of experience and the same amount of skill, but are STILL paid less for the same job?

 

Does that directly address some of the issues you raised or do you think I'm still just trying to see myself as 'clever'? By the way, I AM clever...

[Untouchable_Fire]

I know you feel clever, but I don't see you addressing any of the real issues the OP raised. Why are men the ones sent to die in war? Why are women so poorly represented in dangerous jobs? Why do men still typically support the brunt of their families financial needs?

Like it or not, there are legitimate issues raised by the cited work. Mocking those issues won't make them less real.

 

Are you serious?

 

If it bothers you so much, take it up with your congressperson.

 

Or you could berate a stranger about the inherent unfairness of 10,000 year old gender roles.

[clv0116]

Why are men the ones sent to die in war? Because MEN decided women should not be in combat situations.

 

At one time men decided women shouldn't vote. It wasn't a good enough reason then either apparently.

 

 

 

Why are women so poorly represented in dangerous jobs? To which jobs are you specifically referring?

 

Almost all of them - 9 of 10 work related fatalities happen to men. Men are routinely found doing the miserable, dirty and dangerous work.

 

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/cfoi.nr0.htm

 

 

 

Why do men still "typically" support the brunt of their families' financial needs? Ever heard of something called the 'glass ceiling' which is what happens when women (or minorities, for that matter) may well have the same level of education, the same level of experience and the same amount of skill, but are STILL paid less for the same job?

 

First, the so called 'glass ceiling' is not what you describe. The glass ceiling is actually a shorthand phrase to describe the assertion that women and minorities are passed over FOR PROMOTION, not paid less for the same job.

 

When studies correct for the work being done (identical occupations) women earn the same as men. Women just don't take the sh*tty jobs, work as many hours and under as poor conditions as some men will accept.

[clv0116]

Are you serious?

 

If it bothers you so much, take it up with your congressperson.

 

Or you could berate a stranger about the inherent unfairness of 10,000 year old gender roles.

 

I have big fuzzy balls, I can pack the weight don't you worry. I just think the issues the OP raised are (somewhat) real and deserve more than mocking.

[redtail]

I have big fuzzy balls, I can pack the weight don't you worry. I just think the issues the OP raised are (somewhat) real and deserve more than mocking.

 

We're somewhat taking it seriously...

[HsMomma]

At one time men decided women shouldn't vote. It wasn't a good enough reason then either apparently.

 

Nope - it sure wasn't...you asked why it's the men & I answered.

 

 

 

Almost all of them - 9 of 10 work related fatalities happen to men. Men are routinely found doing the miserable, dirty and dangerous work.

 

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/cfoi.nr0.htm

 

 

 

 

 

First, the so called 'glass ceiling' is not what you describe. The glass ceiling is actually a shorthand phrase to describe the assertion that women and minorities are passed over FOR PROMOTION, not paid less for the same job.

 

When studies correct for the work being done (identical occupations) women earn the same as men. Women just don't take the sh*tty jobs, work as many hours and under as poor conditions as some men will accept.

 

Thank you, clv, for the correction of my definition. I guess I should've not mentioned the "glass ceiling" at all. I'd love to see the studies to which you refer, as there are da*n few jobs where women & men make the same amount of money for the same jobs. I work just as many hours as my counterparts, and have worked what you refer to as "sh*tty" jobs when I was a single mom in order to meet my child's needs. Even now, when I'm what's considered "white collar," I don't make the same money as my male counterparts.

 

I think you, clv, are another of those who will pick things apart, when we ARE trying to discuss things rationally, because you have an inherent need to be RIGHT - not open.

 

So be it, then...clv...you are the all-knowing, and I, just a poor misguided idiot who knows nothing of my own gender. Not trying to be "clever" here, clv - just tired of having you dismiss anything anyone says that you don't happen to agree with as drivel.

[The Collector]

Men work harder at making all the best movies, music and art. Women are quite good at writing (about strong women or boy wizards usually), but generally better at appreciating genius than creating it.

 

WOMEN - KNOW YOUR LIMITS. STICK TO MAKING BABIES AND CAKES AND WE'LL MAKE EVERYTHING ELSE. FEEL FREE TO PISS AND MOAN ABOUT WHAT A POOR JOB WE DID OF IT AFTER.

 

Although it's quite unfair that women can't piss standing up and they always have to queue for ages to use the toilet. See, I'm on your side too sometimes sisters.

[sally4sara]

Men work harder at making all the best movies, music and art. Women are quite good at writing (about strong women or boy wizards usually), but generally better at appreciating genius than creating it.

 

WOMEN - KNOW YOUR LIMITS. STICK TO MAKING BABIES AND CAKES AND WE'LL MAKE EVERYTHING ELSE. FEEL FREE TO PISS AND MOAN ABOUT WHAT A POOR JOB WE DID OF IT AFTER.

 

Although it's quite unfair that women can't piss standing up and they always have to queue for ages to use the toilet. See, I'm on your side too sometimes sisters.

 

Oh yeah.............that settles this mess of a thread.

 

THIS is what this thread was needing. Another tantrum.

[HsMomma]

Men work harder at making all the best movies, music and art. Women are quite good at writing (about strong women or boy wizards usually), but generally better at appreciating genius than creating it.

 

WOMEN - KNOW YOUR LIMITS. STICK TO MAKING BABIES AND CAKES AND WE'LL MAKE EVERYTHING ELSE. FEEL FREE TO PISS AND MOAN ABOUT WHAT A POOR JOB WE DID OF IT AFTER.

 

Although it's quite unfair that women can't piss standing up and they always have to queue for ages to use the toilet. See, I'm on your side too sometimes sisters.

 

What are you, 12? Get a REALLY, REALLY big grip, here, Collector.

 

What you'll "make" is an even bigger a$$ of yourself if you continue to post that kinda cr*p on here!

[clv0116]

.... there are da*n few jobs where women & men make the same amount of money for the same jobs. I work just as many hours as my counterparts, and have worked what you refer to as "sh*tty" jobs when I was a single mom in order to meet my child's needs. Even now, when I'm what's considered "white collar," I don't make the same money as my male counterparts.

 

Did you ever do work as:

 

• A professional plumber.
• A garbage collector.
• A concrete flat-worker.
• etc. ?

 

Because those are the crappy sorts of jobs men take to make more money, even more money than other MEN who are unwilling or unable to do such things.

 

As for working 'the same job for less money' I don't buy it. For one, it's illegal. For two, if, as a businessman, I could really hire women to do the same job for less, I'd have 100% women working. It makes no sense.

 

What job do you do where a man has the same job and is getting paid more?

[clv0116]

We're somewhat taking it seriously...

 

And honestly, I keep them shaved just for tidiness sake.

[HsMomma]

Did you ever do work as:

 

• A professional plumber.
  
• A garbage collector. - As a matter of fact, yes!
  
• A concrete flat-worker.
  
• etc. ?
  

Because those are the crappy sorts of jobs men take to make more money, even more money than other MEN who are unwilling or unable to do such things.

 

As for working 'the same job for less money' I don't buy it. For one, it's illegal. For two, if, as a businessman, I could really hire women to do the same job for less, I'd have 100% women working. It makes no sense.

 

What job do you do where a man has the same job and is getting paid more?

 

Again, I ask you to show the studies where you say it's not true that 'same job less money' doesn't exist. Here's one example that says that it does INDEED exist:

 

www.cnn.com/US/9804/03/equal.pay.day/

 

I've cited a source backing up my claims - how 'bout you do the same? And, the job I have is as a manager for a wholesale insurance brokerage. The disparity in pay in our industry (all other things being equal - education, experience, skills, etc.) is still at about 20% +/- with women coming out on the short end of the stick.

[NoIDidn't]

Again, I ask you to show the studies where you say it's not true that 'same job less money' doesn't exist. Here's one example that says that it does INDEED exist:

 

www.cnn.com/US/9804/03/equal.pay.day/

 

I've cited a source backing up my claims - how 'bout you do the same? And, the job I have is as a manager for a wholesale insurance brokerage. The disparity in pay in our industry (all other things being equal - education, experience, skills, etc.) is still at about 20% +/- with women coming out on the short end of the stick.

 

 

CLV should do his own research. I wouldn't bother doing it for him.

 

He likes to play Devil's Advocate while never truly expressing one opinion or another.

 

The latest numbers from the US gov show that women make seventy-six cents to the dollar vs. men. And that's just all women. It gets worse when you factor in race. There are many reasons for this, but CLV is only going to pick the one that makes him "right" and then demand more proof from your end. LOL.

 

Its a losing battle. Just like he likes it. LOL

[NoIDidn't]

Why do I get the impression that just because the lame book cited by the OP was written by a woman, its supposed to be taken as the gospel according to everyone else?

 

I don't know where you guys have been but plenty of women have died in Iraq over the past five years. Plenty of women have died working in dangerous jobs as well.

 

Why do men die more often on the job? Dare I say that generally, SOME men are just reckless and not as cautious as a woman would have been in the same situation.

 

The recent recession brings to mind what all the newspapers are saying: this is a man's recession. Women are being retained. Men are being let go. Some companies are saying its because men lack social finesse or are just too full of themselves to help the company's bottom line in this delicate time.

 

I can't say for certain that those things are true as I have been out of the workforce for over five years, but the stats on who is losing their jobs gender-wise, speak for themselves.

[clv0116]

I've cited a source backing up my claims ....

 

1998, and one coach, seriously?

 

Here is an article that explains why men still earn more than women. A few salient points:

 

Unequal doesn't always mean unfair. Much depends on the reasons for disparity. And, Hartmann notes, "parsing out (the reasons for the gap) is difficult to do."

 

Factors may include: more women choose lower-paying professions than men; they move in and out of the workforce more frequently; and they work fewer paid hours on average.

 

....

 

But maybe there can never be absolute parity because often there are many non-discriminatory variables that cause a differential in pay. What determines someone's pay isn't just a title and job description, but also performance, tenure and market forces -- e.g., what it takes to get a desirable job candidate to accept a position.

 

....

 

In an article, Warren Farrell, author of "Why Men Earn More: The Startling Truth Behind the Pay Gap -- and What Women Can Do About It," tells of a company that promoted good women employees faster than men. But consequently the women moving into the higher positions often were paid less than men in the same position because the men had greater tenure at the company.

 

 

Also have a read of anything from Dr. Warren Farrell regarding this, he's a bit of an expert.

[clv0116]

The latest numbers from the US gov show that women make seventy-six cents to the dollar vs. men.

 

Engineers make more than burger flippers, clearly it's because burger flippers are discriminated against. Either that or the work they decided to do wasn't worth as much. One or the other.

[NoIDidn't]

Well, there you have it. Men make more. So they have more to pay!

 

What's there to complain about?! LOL

[Island Girl]

Engineers make more than burger flippers, clearly it's because burger flippers are discriminated against. Either that or the work they decided to do wasn't worth as much. One or the other.

 

C'mon clv this is completely nonsensical.

 

The statistics are for men vs. women doing THE SAME JOB.

[Lucky_One]

WOMEN - KNOW YOUR LIMITS. STICK TO MAKING BABIES AND CAKES AND WE'LL MAKE EVERYTHING ELSE. FEEL FREE TO PISS AND MOAN ABOUT WHAT A POOR JOB WE DID OF IT AFTER.

 

No ****. I want to piss and moan about something that a man did.

 

WHO WAS THE STUPID MAN WHO MADE DIFFERENT SIZED TRAILER BALLS?? I get SO tired of having to change out a ball depending on what I am pulling. Why not just put a 2 5/16" ball on everything and be DONE with it?

 

AND SCREWDRIVERS?!?! Why not just make most standard screws with a TORX, and get rid of slotted and Philips altogether??

 

STUPID MEN!!!!

[Island Girl]

No ****. I want to piss and moan about something that a man did.

 

WHO WAS THE STUPID MAN WHO MADE DIFFERENT SIZED TRAILER BALLS?? I get SO tired of having to change out a ball depending on what I am pulling. Why not just put a 2 5/16" ball on everything and be DONE with it?

 

AND SCREWDRIVERS?!?! Why not just make most standard screws with a TORX, and get rid of slotted and Philips altogether??

 

STUPID MEN!!!!

 

:bunny::bunny:

 

:lmao::lmao:

 

PERFECT.

[cn283]

-Men have the burden of asking women out. Women don't have to deal with rejection.

-Men are questioned by her male relatives. Doesn't apply to women.

-Men are instantly protective to female crying. Male crying invites women to make fun of men.

-Men are more affectionate. During cuddling men hold women and give them a safe protected feeling, a feeling which no man ever got from a woman except his mother.

-Men have to put women's needs first

-All the decision making responsbility falls on the man but he still needs to put her first.

-Men's sacrfices are harder and men make more sacrfices.

-Women are allowed to hit men.

-Women treat men like subpar humans and demand chivalry.

-During sex men do most of the work.

-Foreplay is more about the woman.

-The average woman does not bring her man to multiple orgasms.

-Men intiate sex more.

-Men sexually desire women more han vice versa.

-Men give more foot rubs and massages than they take.

-Men give more security than they take.

-Women accidentally hurt men in the testicles and laugh. A man accidentally elbowing a woman's breasts wouln't laugh.

-Men care for all women, women care for a few men if that.

-Men have to drive on vacations and give up sleep.

-Holidays are about her.

-Women are human beings, men are human doings.(warren farrell)

-She has no responsbility to him after the marriage has broken up.

-Women marry up. The man is ALWAYS ALWAYS the better half.

-Women are not funny or have no real desire to make men laugh or smile.

-The dirty housework as well as hard labor is his.

-Men have to pay on dates and drive.

-Men have to protect women. This is the MOST unfair one.

-Men are easier to deal with.

-Women are more needy. Men are self sufficent. Men can do more things than women.

-Women withold sex.

-Women are more selective so end up marrying up.

-Men are more loyal and faithful. Men don't get hit on as much etc

-Men have less sex partners.

-Men are more nurtruing. Women share more problems, take more emotional support and are emotionally weaker. men comofort the woman during a mutual crisis. The man is the stable emotional rock not vice versa.

-Men have to provide for women and miss out on time with their kids.

-Men have to propose. Only women get engagement gifts.

-Women are passive and receptive and don't have to do much.

-Women take other women's sides first.

-Love doesn't inspire women to do great things.

-Men sleep on the unsafe side of the bed.

-Women are never the ones to pursue men. Have you EVER heard of a relationship where the woman did more of the pursuing than he did?

-Men must make the first kiss and say "I love you" first. So many things are unreciprocated by women.

-Women get a feeling of safety when out with a man.

-Most men would give up their life for a woman. There is an unwritten rule that says men must bear 100% (and not 50%) of the burden, stress and danger.

-Women don't comepete for men and get aggressive over men. They don't physically fight over them.

-Men earn more money , women spend more money

-Forget where I read this but apparently women are more delicate and worthy of MORE (yes MORE) consideration and care than men.

-Also I read women fall in love faster but men fall in love harder. So once again men love harder. Falling in love faster shows how fickle a woman's love is.

 

 

Overall men give more to women than vice versa. Men take care of women , women take care of children seems to be true.

 

All this in adiditon to so many legal advantages and safety nets for women.

 

 

 

Ok, you want answers detailed answers to "prove you wrong", I'll try my best. (I've been in a R for almost 4 years now.)

 

Rejection: women have to deal with that as much as men. What happens if she's not good enough in bed, too ugly, or his friends don't like her and he never calls again...

 

Relatives: a woman's intentions are questioned by family members all the time. Is she a gold digger, a slut, ect...women are just more passive aggressive than men are. Like a father would threaten, but a mother would make snide remarks.

 

Emotions: any mature person would not make fun of someone else crying...man or woman. That may be from your personal experience, but when by bf shows emotions, ie. crying, I comfort him and try my best to make him feel better.

 

Affection: again, I'm not sure what your personal experience is but I grab my bf's hand, give him random kisses, by him chocolate (he's got a huge sweet tooth), bake him cookies, hug him, tell him I love him for no reason...the list can go on.

 

Needs: again, personal experience...I think a healthy relationship involves both people thinking of the other person. I don't like beets, but I'll make him a beet salad. He doesn't like scifi all that much, but he'll watch Dr. Who with me...give and take.

 

Decision Making: that's 50/50 in my R

 

Sacfifices: again, I don't know what you've had to give up, but other than sleeping with other people, none of us have given up anything.

 

Violence: unless in a playful manner, not cool for all parties involved.

 

Treating a man then less of a person: I've never done it in my life, and never intend on starting. That's cruel and no one deserves it.

 

Sex: It's only good when both people are trying. Sometimes its women being ashamed about sex, other times its inexperience or laziness...but not ALL women just lie there, and even if that were the case that should be a conversation both parties are comfortable with to have.

 

Foreplay: Should be about both parties...

 

Multiple Orgasms/sex drive: The average man doesn't bring a woman to multiple orgasms either...honestly it's not about the finish for me, it's about the intimacy. Men tend to have higher sex drives than women, so yes, they tend to want it more and seek it out more...I don't see how you can blame a woman for that though.

 

Massages: I don't know what to tell you about this one, neither of us are really massage people unless we're hurt or sore...

 

Neediness: I can't comment as this sounds like a generalized negative statement...Needing someone isn't always a bad thing, and I know plenty of single women that don't want or need men in their lives to do anything. If the bf goes out of town, I don't fall apart...I'm just fine.

 

Security: I'm not sure if this is physical or emotional...physically men are obviously stronger, so yes you're right, emotionally for me goes both ways otherwise there wouldn't be a relationship.

 

Withholding: Some women use sex as a weapon, some women have drastically different sex drives than their partner, sometimes it's for reasons no one but the people in the relationship know about. You can't make a broad statement about this as every situation is different.

 

Selective: ? Not sure what you mean...

 

Loyality: Again, this statement has to be painted by your past experiences, I think both partners have to be loyal...Judging from all the women getting cheated on, and the women that hit on my bf right in front of me I can say this has not been my experience.

 

Less sex partners: That's usually not true, and even if it is what does a person's past matter if they are healthy and commited to you.

 

Nuturing: Being good in a crisis isn't a male or female trait. My mom is great in a crisis, my step-dad...not so much. I support my bf when he has problems, but he supports me when I need him.

 

Time with kids vs. taking care of women: I've never seen this happen, if you have that sucks.

 

Men caring for all women: Again, this is not true. You don't care for the stripper like you care for your mother. Just like I wouldn't care about a random guy like I care about my bf or my dad.

 

Driving: For me its 50/50 on long trips, but honestly he's a better driver so he perfers to drive.

 

Holidays: Should be about togetherness and family...at least they are for us.

 

Women are human beings, men are human doings: Don't see the point in that statement other than to rant.

 

After the marriage: What responsibility? Unless there are kids involved.

 

The man is ALWAYS ALWAYS the better half: It's unfair to assume all women are evil. That's like saying all men are only interested in sex, or all men are dogs, or all men cheat.

 

Women are not funny or have no real desire to make men laugh or smile: Tell that to all the female comedians, or to my bf when I crack him up.

 

The dirty housework as well as hard labor is his: So your saying a woman never cleans the house (I do) take out the garbage (I do), or generally stays involved with the general upkeep of a house? (I do) Granted I'm not doing major roof repair, but neither is he.

 

Men have to pay on dates and drive: When guys do that, it's usually a form of chivilary, I personally pay for half unless a guy really insists...but that's how I was raised.

 

Men have to protect women. This is the MOST unfair one: Honestly you don't HAVE to do anything. Most guys WANT to protect the people they love whether that be guys or girls.

 

Men are easier to deal with: This is your opinion, and I don't think there is anything I can say to change that.

 

Men have to propose. Only women get engagement gifts: Not true, I know women that propose, and both men and women get gifts...at least where I'm from.

 

Women are passive and receptive and don't have to do much: Again, this is your opinion, and I don't think there is anything I can say to change that.

 

Women take other women's sides first: Gross generalization, every situation is different. Will I take my mom's side first? Yes. Will I take a stranger's side first? Not without knowing all the facts.

 

Love doesn't inspire women to do great things: Love inspired me to learn how to bake, and to convert my religion. That may not be great to you, but it was great to him.

 

Men sleep on the unsafe side of the bed: ??? I didn't know there was an unsafe side.

 

Women are never the ones to pursue men. Have you EVER heard of a relationship where the woman did more of the pursuing than he did? Yes, and men made fun of them and called them desperate.

 

Men must make the first kiss and say "I love you" first. So many things are unreciprocated by women: I say I love you to my bf every day, more than once a day. I said I love you first.

 

Women get a feeling of safety when out with a man: I'm not sure how feeling safe without a man is a bad thing, especially when you previously stated that women are too dependant on men.

 

Most men would give up their life for a woman. There is an unwritten rule that says men must bear 100% (and not 50%) of the burden, stress and danger: I've never heard of this rule. And other than paper cuts and running into walls (we're both pretty clumsy) there's never too much danger.

 

Women don't comepete for men and get aggressive over men. They don't physically fight over them: I've seen this in action, so I know this isn't true.

 

Men earn more money, women spend more money: Yes, men tend to make more money, but that's not a woman's fault. Spending money isn't a male/female thing. I know plenty of men and women that are terrrible with money.

 

Forget where I read this but apparently women are more delicate and worthy of MORE (yes MORE) consideration and care than men: That's untrue and whoever wrote it, or believes it is an idiot.

 

Also I read women fall in love faster but men fall in love harder. So once again men love harder. Falling in love faster shows how fickle a woman's love is: Even if I did fall in love first, I stayed in love. I don't think falling in love first makes someone fickle. If you do I'd love to hear an explenation for that.

 

I think I answered all of your questions, if I left something out you can let me know. I'm sorry about whatever happened in your life to make you see the world like this, and yes it's unfair to insult you just because your opinions are different (even if the opinions are a little insulting themselves) and you want an open and honest discussion. Not all women are the same, not all men are the same. Hope this helps...

[carhill]

WHO WAS THE STUPID MAN WHO MADE DIFFERENT SIZED TRAILER BALLS?? I get SO tired of having to change out a ball depending on what I am pulling. Why not just put a 2 5/16" ball on everything and be DONE with it?

 

Hey, I'm a man and it keeps my shop in business

 

Try a receiver. I used those on my rigs. 1 7/8", 2", and 2 5/16" slide in with no effort at all. There's even a receiver plug which has all the balls mounted to it. Usually, 2 5/16" is for heavy tag or gooseneck towing.

 

I gotta respect a woman who can rant about trailer parts and especially one who can back a rig with confidence

[Lucky_One]

I've got a 2" receiver, and I've got this cute little nylon zipper bag to keep all the parts in. But it STILL ticks me off!!

 

You go off to the beach with the boat, and you want to load up the lawnmower trailer at the cottage. You have to change the flipping ball!! (Or at least pull the thing out and flip it over.

 

You know, i might break a nail doing that; I can back a mean trailer, but my nails have to look good doing it, you know?

[clv0116]

C'mon clv this is completely nonsensical.

 

The statistics are for men vs. women doing THE SAME JOB.

 

Actually the 76 cent stat is NOT. Read carefully - it's a sum of money earned by women divided per woman, compared to the same for men. NOT corrected for what the job is so sorry sweetie cheeks.

[Citizen Erased]

WOMEN - KNOW YOUR LIMITS. STICK TO MAKING BABIES AND CAKES AND WE'LL MAKE EVERYTHING ELSE. FEEL FREE TO PISS AND MOAN ABOUT WHAT A POOR JOB WE DID OF IT AFTER.

 

 

Cool, I don't have to go to work tomorrow?