I think i'm just gonna stop dating and go to hookers from now on...

[Els]

I think America's complicated dating rituals inevitably lead to the understandable frustration alpha (and myself) are feeling. Sometimes I wish I had been born in another country that places marriage above love. Travel a bit and you'll see that people just pair up arbitrarily. It's not complicated and everyone has a place and sense of importance to someone else.

 

LOL. Really, you want to marry before having sex????

 

I thought that was precisely what most men DIDN'T want.

[tanbark813]

LOL. Really, you want to marry before having sex????

 

I thought that was precisely what most men DIDN'T want.

 

We don't. kizik has clearly gone insane.

[sally4sara]

We don't. kizik has clearly gone insane.

But then, many cultures that place more importance on marriage over love often don't expect men to be virginal. Often it is only the women who are expected to have an intact hymen. Besides, even if they expect the males to abstain, how do you prove a man is a virgin?

[Els]

Well, they won't get to have sex with THAT woman.

 

But yes, nothing prevents them from buying it from others (hard to get it for free in those cultures), just like alphamale is planning to do.

[kizik]

I don't want to marry just to have sex. I want society to have a less-exclusive, less-elitist POV on dating.

 

I also want a pot of gold and rainbows at my door...

[tanbark813]

Besides, even if they expect the males to abstain, how do you prove a man is a virgin?

 

He looks like this:

 

http://sixwordstochangetheworld.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/40_year_old_virgin.jpg

 

[Jaytb]

He looks like this:

 

http://sixwordstochangetheworld.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/40_year_old_virgin.jpg

 

 

True, it's very easy to tell.

[Jaytb]

If I were you OP I'd skip the hookers and just go straight to free porn. Hey, it is a tough economy and everyone's gotta cutback

[WineCountry]

If I were you OP I'd skip the hookers and just go straight to free porn. Hey, it is a tough economy and everyone's gotta cutback

 

 

Yeah, Alpha, then you could spank the muskrat for free. ( Im sick of using the word monkey..)

 

Anyhoo..we are doing a prostitution/john sting this weekend!! Too bad you dont live closer!:laugh:

[Sam Spade]

That's not such a bad idea. The only serious cons are that hookers won't have your children, and that they won't be around to call 911 in the middle of night when you're 80. But given how much dating and relationship grief you need to go though in exchange of the (vague promise) of such things, the calculus still suggests solid wining score for the hookers . Some of them have very pleasant personalities .

[BOLTON33]

LOL. Really, you want to marry before having sex????

 

I thought that was precisely what most men DIDN'T want.

 

I have to agree with Kizik completely. I really wish they could bring back arranged marriages or times when men actually had atleast some power in choosing a mate (unlike today where it's all in the hands of women).

 

I really, personally, could care less about sex as long as the person is devoted to me completely and loves me. Sex is really just an extra thing to do at night when I get the urge, but even then you don't have to be an amazing beauty queen to be sexually attractive. Really , I wish women would just accept a simple, "boring" sex life instead of making it the center of their life. Sex is the religion of secular societies like ours unfortunately, it's a really stupid thing to worship.

 

The hoops and instability you have to deal with nowadays really take all the joy out of finding a female companion. It blows, people just have TOO many options (And by people , i mean only women), too many opportunities to do better. While it seems like a great thing in the short term for you guys, in the long term it just means your expectations will come to a point where nobody but rock gods and movie stars meets them, as most single women's are. You'll never "Settle" for a normal good loyal fun guy, because society always tells you you can do better.

 

Women always blame us guys for them getting plastic surgery and boob jobs but the reality of the matter is women do it to be at the top of their game. They think us guys are really as shallow as they are s othey do what they can so they can attract the "cream of the crop" like rich guys and extremely beautiful men. They aren't deforming their bodies for us, they are deforming their bodies in fact to get away and rise above the league of us average guys who are doomed to perpetual loneliness.

 

**** americanized society.

[burning 4 revenge]

Are you about to convert to Islam Bolton 33?

[carhill]

Eastern Orthodox

[Els]

I don't want to marry just to have sex. I want society to have a less-exclusive, less-elitist POV on dating.

 

I also want a pot of gold and rainbows at my door...

 

But you also want sex within a few dates with the girl.

 

That isn't going to happen in traditional cultures. And if you think it's less-exclusive and less-elitist, think again. When parents are involved (and traditionally they WILL be) it is probably MORE exclusive. You will be interrogated down to the very last banana tree you own. And then they will hold a meeting among themselves to discuss whether or not you're worthy of their girl.

[Els]

I have to agree with Kizik completely. I really wish they could bring back arranged marriages or times when men actually had atleast some power in choosing a mate (unlike today where it's all in the hands of women).

 

Uh no. Back in those days the girl's PARENTS decide whether or not you get the woman.. not you. Frankly if you're an 'average' (read: average income earner, average position in society) guy looking for a good bride I think you'd have more chance in today's society. At least SOME women will look at who you are and not how much you earn or your status in society. Not so much in traditional match-making. Everything is counted in terms of 'value'. How much 'value' can the son-in-law add to the family; how much dowry will he give; will the father be able to form any partnerships with his business?

 

in the long term it just means your expectations will come to a point where nobody but rock gods and movie stars meets them, as most single women's are. You'll never "Settle" for a normal good loyal fun guy, because society always tells you you can do better.

 

You're just bitter. My bf is no rock god or movie star and I wouldn't want him to be.

 

 

Women always blame us guys for them getting plastic surgery and boob jobs but the reality of the matter is women do it to be at the top of their game. They think us guys are really as shallow as they are s othey do what they can so they can attract the "cream of the crop" like rich guys and extremely beautiful men. They aren't deforming their bodies for us, they are deforming their bodies in fact to get away and rise above the league of us average guys who are doomed to perpetual loneliness.

 

**** americanized society.

 

Actually this MAY have a BIT of truth in it. Go for women who DON'T get plastic surgery or boob jobs (ie average-looking women), maybe?

[LovesHangover]

This is the saddest and funniest thing I have read thus far!

[Woggle]

This is probably the best approach for a man. Paying for a hooker is cheaper than paying alimony to a woman that probably refused to let you touch for the last year or two of the marriage.

[Sam Spade]

I think America's complicated dating rituals inevitably lead to the understandable frustration alpha (and myself) are feeling. Sometimes I wish I had been born in another country that places marriage above love. Travel a bit and you'll see that people just pair up arbitrarily. It's not complicated and everyone has a place and sense of importance to someone else.

 

 

I feel the same way. I've ben here long enough to almost forget how it was in the civilized world, but I don't ever remember being that despondent. Not that I personally struggle with finging a girl etc.

 

The over-emphasis on relationships here really doesn't speak well of people's ability to take responsibility and ejoy life. Meet a girl/guy; go out; have fun; get married; make one or two squishy babies; have fun; love and respect each other; it's not rocket science (unless people make it to be by going out of their way) . It's not that marriage is being placed "above love", it's just that marriage is just one of many things people do when they grow up. Not.a.big.dea., that is.

[BOLTON33]

Are you about to convert to Islam Bolton 33?

 

I would not convert to Islam, not because I don't think it's an awesome religion, but because I can't force myself to believe in a foreign God and live amongst foreign people. It's not fair for my ancestors who strifed and struggled for me to exist and to pass on their legacy.

 

But honestly, I really envy the love relations in Islamic culture. If us western white people had an Islamic style concept of love, our morality and society as a whole wouldn't be collapsing into oblivion as it is today.

 

Uh no. Back in those days the girl's PARENTS decide whether or not you get the woman.. not you. Frankly if you're an 'average' (read: average income earner, average position in society) guy looking for a good bride I think you'd have more chance in today's society. At least SOME women will look at who you are and not how much you earn or your status in society. Not so much in traditional match-making. Everything is counted in terms of 'value'. How much 'value' can the son-in-law add to the family; how much dowry will he give; will the father be able to form any partnerships with his business?[/Quote]

 

That's not 100% true. Sure dowry is a big thing, but the dowry isn't in order for the parents to make money, for your information dowry is a social security net given to the bride's family to store in the case of divorce or death of the husband. (where he can't provide any longer). If we didn't have governmental services that provided security nets we would probably encourage the same practice.

 

I think that if a woman's parents instead of herself decided who married their daughter, I would have many wives.

 

You are definitely overstating how much "value" a family requires to marry their daughter. Sure , they don't want the opium smoker down the street to date their daughter. But I think a guy whose family and who himself is known for hard work and good values will have no problem getting a wife.

 

And no, there is little chance a woman in Western society is going to date you for you and not for your demonstrable value. Our society simply has more cliches that's it. This goes against all evolutionary psychological concensus of woman's sexual attraction. The women of our society unfortunately are artificially promoted to the same level as men, so it has become almost impossible to demonstrate higher value than women without having something very special like being very tall or movie star good looking. In other societieis women are more traditional, so to be of a higher value than them all you need is to be a good responsible and caring person with a decent job.

 

 

Traditionalist societies > western societies. All you need to do is look at their divorce rates and overall happiness of their people (beyond whatever crappy propaganda you see on TV).

[Jaytb]

This is probably the best approach for a man. Paying for a hooker is cheaper than paying alimony to a woman that probably refused to let you touch for the last year or two of the marriage.

 

yeah but pr0n is still the cheapest, if you're smart of course.

 

I say let us men go on strike against women! We won't date you until:

Dates are cheaper

I don't have to buy you a $4000 engagement ring

I don't have to get married if I don't want to

Women started asking guys out (you wanted equality, then you got it!)

No mindgames! Especially no more hard to get!

Oh and no more 5'2" women complaining a 5'9" man is too short, honey you're too short! lol

Oh and to my girlfriend specifically: no more emotional freaking out! Like seriously, if I don't get to the train station on time, it's not the farking end of the world! For christsakes!

 

(serious about the demands, not serious about the strike)

[BOLTON33]

yeah but pr0n is still the cheapest, if you're smart of course.

 

I say let us men go on strike against women! We won't date you until:

Dates are cheaper

I don't have to buy you a $4000 engagement ring

I don't have to get married if I don't want to

Women started asking guys out (you wanted equality, then you got it!)

No mindgames! Especially no more hard to get!

Oh and no more 5'2" women complaining a 5'9" man is too short, honey you're too short! lol

Oh and to my girlfriend specifically: no more emotional freaking out! Like seriously, if I don't get to the train station on time, it's not the farking end of the world! For christsakes!

 

(serious about the demands, not serious about the strike)

 

LOL!

 

I'm no cheapskate, but am I the only one who thinks it's absolutely retarded to spend more than 50 bucks on a ring? If you think about it, that 4000 dollar engagement ring women demand is really just a shiney mineral with a pretty rock on top (most of the time, a piece of hardened carbon that is given artificial value by jewelry companies who get children in third world countries to mine them in dangerous and deadly conditions, worshipped by women as "Diamonds"). What a waste, something like that can go towards a house or something useful.

 

But pally-o, it doesn't matter if you and me go on strike to women. What we need is all the brad pitts and male models and rich guys of the world to go on strike against women, THAT will hit them where it hurts! Sometimes I wish I was a really good looking tall rich guy women could never resist, that way I can teach women how to be better people, or in worse case scenario, teach them a lesson .

[Jaytb]

LOL!

 

I'm no cheapskate, but am I the only one who thinks it's absolutely retarded to spend more than 50 bucks on a ring?

 

No you're not the only one. If you're swimming in money, then go ahead spend it how you like, but if you have student loans and mortgage payments, then taking out a loan to buy a diamond ring is the dumbest idea ever.

 

If you think about it, that 4000 dollar engagement ring women demand is really just a shiney mineral with a pretty rock on top (most of the time, a piece of hardened carbon that is given artificial value by jewelry companies who get children in third world countries to mine them in dangerous and deadly conditions, worshipped by women as "Diamonds"). What a waste, something like that can go towards a house or something useful.

 

Completely agree. I hate it when people go into debt for the stupidest things. We wouldn't have an economic crisis if people had lived within their means.

 

But pally-o, it doesn't matter if you and me go on strike to women. What we need is all the brad pitts and male models and rich guys of the world to go on strike against women, THAT will hit them where it hurts! Sometimes I wish I was a really good looking tall rich guy women could never resist, that way I can teach women how to be better people, or in worse case scenario, teach them a lesson .

 

ha. But people don't change, and people never learn. If they did, then history wouldn't repeat itself, people would place their faith in science and mathematics, and there wouldn't be war. But it won't happen.

[Els]

That's not 100% true. Sure dowry is a big thing, but the dowry isn't in order for the parents to make money, for your information dowry is a social security net given to the bride's family to store in the case of divorce or death of the husband. (where he can't provide any longer).

 

That's what it's 'supposed' to be, just a token. Quite often it isn't. Politicians are supposed to work for the good of the people, correct?

 

You are definitely overstating how much "value" a family requires to marry their daughter. Sure , they don't want the opium smoker down the street to date their daughter. But I think a guy whose family and who himself is known for hard work and good values will have no problem getting a wife.

 

Neither will he in today's society, USUALLY. If he does, he just hasn't met the right women most likely, or has underlying issues/problems/etc that prevent him. I see you conveniently left out the part where I said my bf isn't a rock god or movie star. So it's just YOU and not WOMEN NOWADAYS.

 

This goes against all evolutionary psychological concensus of woman's sexual attraction. The women of our society unfortunately are artificially promoted to the same level as men, so it has become almost impossible to demonstrate higher value than women without having something very special like being very tall or movie star good looking.

 

See above.

 

In other societieis women are more traditional, so to be of a higher value than them all you need is to be a good responsible and caring person with a decent job.

 

That depends on what woman you're looking for, and the competition around. Basically if a man with better status and wealth was after the same girl, you wouldn't have a chance. Isn't that what you're already complaining about? You're complaining that women are shallow and they don't like you for YOU. So why do you want to revert to the times when their parents DEFINITELY won't like you for you but instead your money and position?! How is that any less shallow or better?

 

 

Traditionalist societies > western societies. All you need to do is look at their divorce rates and overall happiness of their people (beyond whatever crappy propaganda you see on TV).

 

True story, they don't divorce because they're brainwashed that they can't. That society will NEVER accept them and they'll NEVER find another man and their friends and families will disown them. Low divorce rate does NOT equal happy.

 

I live in an Asian country so it isn't crappy propaganda that I'm basing my opinions on. I can BET ANYTHING YOU WANT that if 50% of the men or women here ever dared to post their problems on this board, EVERYONE would be saying 'OMG WHAT ARE YOU STILL DOING IN THAT MARRIAGE GET OUT NOW'. Frigid wife with no sex, because her parents only married her to you because they wanted your money, and she doesn't like you? Hah, you can't even imagine. Husband just married you to get a partnership with your father and now he ignores you and goes to bed with young girls in his company? Seen it happen.

 

Low divorce rate does not equal happy, get it right.

 

Bolton, how much do YOU know about traditional societies? Beyond the propaganda you see in TVs and books, and the occasional week's long vacation?

[BOLTON33]

That's what it's 'supposed' to be, just a token. Quite often it isn't. Politicians are supposed to work for the good of the people, correct? [/Quote]

 

This is a red herring. One has 0 to do with another, it is usually punished severely for a dowry to be taken advantage of.

 

Neither will he in today's society, USUALLY. If he does, he just hasn't met the right women most likely, or has underlying issues/problems/etc that prevent him. I see you conveniently left out the part where I said my bf isn't a rock god or movie star. So it's just YOU and not WOMEN NOWADAYS.

[/Quote]

 

Oh PLEASE. It's easy to say "he just hasn't met the right one" when you aren't a guy .

 

Sorry it's not me, it's millions of men who have the same complaints. Having a girlfriend or a loyal companion in this society for a man is the exception, not the rule. It shouldn't be that way.

 

Your boyfriend may not be a movie star but he probably has a lot of things that make him a lot better than you. Men in your own boat you won't even look at. That is the problem, most men and women are average, so while women won't look at men in their league, they instead share the minority of extremely good looking guys who are tall and rich, later having the nerve to complain that he's not loyal to them. Where does that leave us men who are not the "elite"?

 

That depends on what woman you're looking for, and the competition around. Basically if a man with better status and wealth was after the same girl, you wouldn't have a chance. Isn't that what you're already complaining about? You're complaining that women are shallow and they don't like you for YOU. So why do you want to revert to the times when their parents DEFINITELY won't like you for you but instead your money and position?! How is that any less shallow or better? [/Quote]

 

Duh, my gripe is that in this society men date downwards while women date upwards, so women who are in my league don't want me because the "amazing" uber men are after them.

 

I said their parents would like me, not for status or wealth, but because generally older generations of people like me and would love it if I dated their daughter, instead of the heroin shooting wife beating convicts women are obssessed with. You are certainly overstating the the wealth thing, the guy who owns the 99cent store by my house had an arranged marriage and he's not a billionaire, he's a working class small business owner. Sure you have to do something, but it's not like western women whose idea of security and comfort is a 3 story mansion with 2 lexus' parked in the garage.

 

Material possessions matter to an extent yeah, but western women make it the point of their lives. I doubt a person who practices Hinduism or Buddhism or other traditional societies feels this way simply for the sheer philosophy of such societies.

 

True story, they don't divorce because they're brainwashed that they can't. That society will NEVER accept them and they'll NEVER find another man and their friends and families will disown them. Low divorce rate does NOT equal happy.

[/Quote]

 

What makes YOU so special? Do you think it's impossible to be brainwashed in our hyper consumerist society where corporations make billions selling you plastic garbage you don't need?

 

And while low divorce rate alone does not equal happiness, it is certainly one of the factors. Loneliness is the biggest killer, it causes a thousand different diseases and stress, it's statistically proven fact. It's obvious that a society with low divorce rate, has less loneliness.

 

While on the Lifetime channel and other propaganda organs they show women divorcing men for beating them, for being losers ,etc the reality is not the same. In most traditional societies like Islamic ones, if the man abuses the woman not only is she allowed to divorce him , but the man is forced to pay a fine to her and her family and is tried in court. Adultery is another reason for divorce.

 

The reality of divorce in western society is just a consequence of women having too much financial freedom. Most women don't get divorced because of adultery or abuse, but rather because they get "bored" and want to date a younger better looking man or because Oprah told them they can do better. People have forgotten how to love after looks fade with age, and the stupidity of such people means everyone suffers for it. I can bet that when my generation is old, the divorce rate will be 90%.

 

Bolton, how much do YOU know about traditional societies? Beyond the propaganda you see in TVs and books, and the occasional week's long vacation? [/Quote]

 

I have always had a deep interest in far eastern religions like Buddhism and Hinduism, so I know quite a lot about these societies.

 

What asian country do you live in ? Are you Asian? Is your boyfriend Asia?

[Woggle]

I don't want to live in a more traditional society but I wish would regain that independent and wild streak that used to be a staple of manhood. It seems that is slowly being bred out of the male gender at a young age. This is what many women are attracted to and the men who refuse to emasculate themselves in the name of sensitivity are the ones who are lucky with females. We need to start teaching men how to be men again. Rebuild maleness and the problem for the most part will fix itself.