A Different Perspective

[complicatedlife]

Oh, the old embezzlement/fraud exception to adultery(as opposed to the leap year exception, which is equally valid). Sorry, I did not realise that had been invoked. I'm sure the minister thinks it is okay then, eh?

Oh, forgot. Nobody told him.

GET THE FACTS RIGHT: The ex-wife was cheating WAY before my boyfriend, that's why she was stealing money to leave - that's why he has the majority of custody.

READ THE PAST POSTS AND THREADS IN IT'S ENTIRETY BEFORE MAKING A FOOL OUT OF YOURSELF WITH PSYCHO-BABBLE.

[Reggie]

I am still waiting on the prayer PM!

And I don't care if you give my mom credence, and neither does she; I don't recall asking you for any credence! EVERYONE IS ENTITLED TO THEIR OWN VIEW AND OPINION- what the hell makes you think that YOURS IS THE CORRECT ONE?

Just for the record, I didn't commit adultery, I was not married, I was free and single. Geesh - get the facts right.

 

Everyone says Tom is wrong for what he did. Some people here have very selective reading.

 

But the real and true dysfunctional thing here is your numerous attempts to hammer on and bark at people here instead of trying to have a polite debate in which you agree to disagree; that's what mature adults do. I hope the hammering and barking gives you plenty of nocturnal emissions.

 

Yes, having a romantic relationship with a married man is adultery. What type of twisted rationalizing have you done?(Run this by the minister, your dad).

The debate has never been about whether Tom's cheating, like your own(oh, forgot the embezzlement /fraud clause in the vows, again) was wrong.

It just seems that you have totally ignored the duty they had to their other friend, Lisa. Why is that?

This failure to consider her, is why I feel you are wrong.

[Reggie]

Why do you want a PM? We don't , generally, give the recipients of our prayers copies or receipts.

 

Nor does our faith recognize the stealing/prior cheating exception to the vows.

[complicatedlife]

Yes, having a romantic relationship with a married man is adultery. What type of twisted rationalizing have you done?(Run this by the minister, your dad).

The debate has never been about whether Tom's cheating, like your own(oh, forgot the embezzlement /fraud clause in the vows, again) was wrong.

It just seems that you have totally ignored the duty they had to their other friend, Lisa. Why is that?

This failure to consider her, is why I feel you are wrong.

1. Well, if you want to get technical, at some point in the relationship I did commit the SIN of adultery, not the CRIME of adultery - that one was on my boyfriend. If you'd like to now exchange in an adult-oriented debate, then leave my dad out of this. Thank you.

2. I don't have the same view as you do about it, plain and simple. Your views are always right, and the opposing view is wrong - do I have that correct? Just want to be clear on it.

3. The debate was not about anything that you have said here. The "question" that was posed by Caitlyn was, "Does anyone ever think about the other people (friends included) who are affected by an affair?"

 

READ.

[complicatedlife]

Why do you want a PM? We don't , generally, give the recipients of our prayers copies or receipts.

 

Nor does our faith recognize the stealing/prior cheating exception to the vows.

 

When someone wants to pray for someone, they do try to do it WITH the person whenever possible. But it's cool - I knew it was a farce.

 

This is not the appropriate place to discuss faith based views - there's a religious section for that, if I am not mistaken. Although, I am not particularly sure what you mean in the bolded part; it's not coming across very articulately.

[Reggie]

Presumably, everyone presenting his or her view thinks it is right. You do yours, don't you?

Second, there has been much discussion here on whether it was right to inform on Tom.

Let's BOTH leave your mom and dad out of this, then,K?

[Reggie]

Not in the religion in which I was raised. Rather presumptuous of you.

 

Try this if you did not understand the prior post. Marital vows do not come with exceptions. His wife's actions would have been grounds for divorce, not cheating. And, how do his wife's action justify your participation? She had not wronged you in any way.

I do not think there is a prohibition on interjecting religous views on this subject of adultery.

[Reggie]

1. Well, if you want to get technical, at some point in the relationship I did commit the SIN of adultery, not the CRIME of adultery - that one was on my boyfriend. If you'd like to now exchange in an adult-oriented debate, then leave my dad out of this. Thank you.

2. I don't have the same view as you do about it, plain and simple. Your views are always right, and the opposing view is wrong - do I have that correct? Just want to be clear on it.

3. The debate was not about anything that you have said here. The "question" that was posed by Caitlyn was, "Does anyone ever think about the other people (friends included) who are affected by an affair?"

 

READ.

 

Yeah, let's get technical about it. He was married. I know that is just a technicality.

[complicatedlife]

Presumably, everyone presenting his or her view thinks it is right. You do yours, don't you?

Second, there has been much discussion here on whether it was right to inform on Tom.

Let's BOTH leave your mom and dad out of this, then,K?

For the record, my views are right for ME and I don't try to impose them on other people as I believe, once again, that everyone is entitled to their own opinion and it is neither right nor wrong - it is THEIR OPINION AND VIEW AND IT WORKS FOR THEM- I AM NOT HERE TO JUDGE SOMEONE"S OPINION. I will politely debate on an opinion or a view, but I will never JUDGE an opinion or view.

 

This threadjacking is quite disrespectful to the OP and I am going to stop. There's no real conversation talking with you, anyway, as you don't answer direct questions. I suggest you show the OP some respect and either reply to her question or perhaps engage her in a debate on her view - or just tell her that you agree with her and that she's A-ok in your eyes: it's why she came here. I'm done - this is nowhere near intellectually stimulating anymore, and I apologize to all who participated in and are following this thread for my banter with two people here when all they are seeking to do is cause unnecessary contention.

[Reggie]

GET THE FACTS RIGHT: The ex-wife was cheating WAY before my boyfriend, that's why she was stealing money to leave - that's why he has the majority of custody.

READ THE PAST POSTS AND THREADS IN IT'S ENTIRETY BEFORE MAKING A FOOL OUT OF YOURSELF WITH PSYCHO-BABBLE.

 

Do you know what psycho-babble is?

[Gamine]

Right and wrong is not a 'view', it is not an ever changing Kaleidoscope that shifts, twists, adjusts, intertwines, contorts, or 'becomes' whatever we so desire or choose. The idea that morality is a subjective standard devised by us, individually, is a slippery slope to the gates of hell... plain and simple. What we do in life accounts for how we have lived our life, and whether we like it or not there is an objective standard we are each held to. The trick is getting real with what that standard is, atoning for our wrongdoings, and becoming the person some of us pretend to be. At the end of the day we have to look in the mirror. When our life comes to a conclusion it can either be something that we are proud we have lived or something we are ashamed of. Ignorance is not bliss, it is a self deception.

 

Everyone who walks the face of this earth owes one another dignified, kind and thoughtful treatment. We cannot say that "this or that" is "right or wrong" for me... and really be dealing with a full deck. We didn't write the 10 Commandments. They exist whether we accept them or not and we are held to the standards they impose whether we like it or not.

 

I would rather be tough on myself during my lifetime while I have an opportunity to change for the better than to create 'lies' that make me appear better than I 'am'.

 

Friends owe one another a duty of fairness or they should not be calling one another friends. Married people owe one another a lot more.

[Trimmer]

But if he came to you and asked you not to tell because he only came out of the need for advice I still think it's wrong to betray that trust.

This comment stirs a very interesting thought process within me. Is there such a "trust" as you suggest here, to which a friend can bind another friend unilaterally, or does it need to happen by agreement?

 

For example, if Tom had started with: "I need to talk to you and I need you to keep it confidential from my wife - and yours, for that matter," and then after receiving mutual agreement, had confessed to having the affair, that would be one thing. (Although in my case, right after he told me it would have to be confidential from my own wife, I would have interrupted before he could reveal anything, and drawn some boundaries defining my marriage and my sense of right and wrong, and the types of things I would and would not agree to keep in confidence, so he could consider that before going on.)

 

On the other hand, if Tom had said, essentially, "I've been having an affair, and by the way, now that you know that, you can't tell my wife or yours," without mutual agreement beforehand, can Tom expect OP's H not to "betray" this trust? Can Tom - simply by dumping a big, important piece of information on OP's H - unilaterally bind the OP's H not to reveal what he has told, without mutual agreement? In this scenario, for me, the answer is "no."

 

And in either scenario, I then consider: wouldn't there be SOME threshold, beyond which it would be wrong to keep certain kinds of confessions confidential? Tom confesses to a murder... wouldn't we all agree that we should not be complicit in keeping this information secret? Tom confesses to molesting a child - again, how could you possibly think that you should keep the secret and "mind your own business," right? Would anyone disagree with me that this would not be a confession I should feel bound to keep secret by the "trust of our friendship?"

 

So somewhere, there is a threshold that divides the things Tom could tell me that I might be willing to keep secret ("I crashed my car and had to spend $1800 to have it fixed while my wife was out of town, but now I have to cover my tracks until I can pay off that credit card....") and those things that I would feel almost duty-bound to do something about (murder, molestation, etc...)

 

So in the region between those extremes is a big gray-area. How do I decide where the threshold is; where do I draw the line between the things I will keep secret, and the things I decide I will not - the things I must not? Is it "my business" to take action if Tom is molesting a child? His own child? If he has spent the college fund that he and his wife agreed was for a child's education? Does the litmus test hinge on whether there is a victim to Tom's actions? How devastating do the victims injuries need to be? Does the victim need to know they are a victim?

 

So for me, the idea that a friend who dumps a confidence on me deserves my unquestioned trust and that I should "mind my own business" and not "betray that trust" is not at all crystal clear. How badly does a victim have to be injured - and does it matter if the victim knows it yet - before my sense of right and wrong can and/or should take precedence over the trust of friendship?

 

This struggle is why I think it was wrong of Tom to burden the OP's H with such a load, and for Tom to assume (if he really did, as many posters in this thread seem to take as gospel) that the OP's H was bound to hold that information in confidence, even from his own wife.

 

AND - in all of that, Tom didn't even "trust" the OP's H with the truth in the first place - he laid out a bunch of half-truths and lies that just dug his hole even deeper. It doesn't seem like Tom was genuinely, honestly seeking advice and counsel on his situation, as he didn't even offer his trust in the OP's H, enough to tell him the truth of the situation in the first place. Well, I guess I'm not saying anything new or controversial here, but it doesn't sound like ol' Tom is that trustworthy a guy...

[OWoman]

I've read this whole thread from start to finish, and since it's already so OT I feel comfortable adding my couple of penniesworth. Here's my reading:

 

So here is my story as a betrayed friend. Myself and my husband had a close group of friends for many years. Several of them went through divorces, two had marriages end partly because of affairs & we stuck together through it all because that is what friends do. For years it worked, we were close, more like a family & we cared about each other.

 

One particular friend, lets call her Lisa, met and married what we thought was a good man, lets call him Tom. Over the years my husband became best friends with Tom, our kids called him uncle Tom, his wife was Aunt Lisa and they were both part of our family.

 

Now looking back on Lisa & Tom's relationship, I can say there were signs that everything wasn't perfect, but no marriage is so I at the time, I brsuhed them off. I also offered advice to both when asked, it was what myself and my husband did in our little circle, we were sort of the mom/dadd figures of them all.

 

"We (the group of friends) were all one big happy family, but we (H&I) were the parents and the others were the kids."

 

Then things got ugly very quickly. Our friend Tom showed up late in the evening, unannouced and wanted to have a chat with my husband privately.

 

"He chose my H above me, and excluded me, his mother. He rejected his mother!"

 

When my husband came inside after the chat, I knew in my gut what had happened. I even said "Let me guess, he's sleeping with someone at work" Inside, I prayed my husband would laugh and say of course not, but instead, his face drained of color & he clammed up.

 

"Even my H wouldn't include me. He rejected me, the mother!"

 

I spoke to him that night, told him that either Tom was to tell Lisa or we would.

 

"Momma wants back in - she's not prepared to be left out any longer and if no one wants to include her, she'll just include herself!"

 

In another post further on, there's a "we be of one mind" kind of post, sort of saying "if my H says A, then A is fine by me", on the Tom issue. So, here we have someone who wants to be seen as a co-joined twin, the Mama of Mama-and-Papa, who's being sidelined and who feels miffed at this "friend" for excluding her. So, she includes herself by taking on her H's angst and confusion and the anger she wishes he'd felt (because she feels it, at being excluded) because being grumpy about "betrayal" looks less trivial than being grumpy about being excluded.

 

But then, all this talk of being "non-judgmental". Uhm, parents are judgmental. It's part of the job description, exercising judgment while guiding kids to build up their own moral compass. So you can't have it both ways - either you're parental, or you're non-judgmental. As later posts show (where the true colours about thing the OW was "wrong" for sleeping with a guy who was M come out) clearly the OP embraces the former model; Tom, in seeking advice, was clearly expecting the latter. Category mismatch. No wonder, in his hesitantly mapping out the terrain, he held back from full disclosure once he discovered that it was Big Dada and not a non-judgemental friend he was talking to. His bad, for accepting at facce value what he ought to have known was something else.

 

There is a similar contradiction in this OP itself - while it claims:

 

I've been reading this forum because I'm the type of lady who likes to see each point of view before making my mind up on any subject.

 

(Please know I'm not here to judge, but to understand from your POV)

 

it also says:

 

So my advice to anyone out there in a relationship where one side is married. Keep in mind that your actions impact many people, not just the kids, not just the BS, but MANY PEOPLE. And the effects can be long lasting & while the marriage might not be salvagable, if you continue with the lies, your friendships probably won't be either.

 

If you're in instructing mode (Big Momma), you're not in non-judgmental mode. You can't have it both ways. You're either listening, non-judgmentally, to learn and find out, so you can "make up your own mind", OR you're declaiming The Truth from your soapbox. Doing that latter just makes a joke of your claim to be doing the former.

 

(Sorry to be pendantic, but I've spent far too many years correcting student essays that make such fundamental errors of logic.)

 

However, to get back on topic, I'll answer the questions (as a fOW) that I know are being asked rhetorically, since the OP already framed her perfectly-made-up-mind's answers herself, anyway:

 

What I am is a betrayed friend & I want to really know from OW/OM if the friends, the people close to your MM/MW every cross your mind?

 

Not only his friends, but his family too. I took to them straight away, and felt really pleased that they liked me too. They were - and are - very important to him, and their opinions mattered to him. That they liked me and wanted us to be together mattered to us. That they hated his then-W and abhorred the way she treated him, that they wanted him to be happy and that they saw a chance for him (and his kids) to be happy through our R counted a great deal. That they supported him - and us - through the whole process was invaluable.

 

 

 

So I ask you posters, the OW/OM out there, do you ever consider the actually number of people your actions are affecting?

 

Of course! It was a big factor for both of us: knowing that our R would make many people, who were currently made unhappy through his M, happy, helped him balance out any potential unhappiness his xW may feel through the process; and for me, knowing that our R was reintegrating him into his family and friend circles after decades of exile made the increasing investment in the R seem grounded, feasible, worthwhile.

 

To the people having affairs, do you consider how wide spread the fallout truely will be when the affair comes out into the light of day?

 

 

There was no "coming into the light of day". He was open with his friends, family, colleagues. They all knew, and we socialised openly with them as a couple. Only his xW didn't know. Unlike poor Tom, however, we found no judgmentality and no rejection; only welcome and support.

[Athena]

Trimmer and OWoman, I really enjoyed both of your posts! Very well argued, good insights, thanks.

[donnamaybe]

First of all, I have to respond to a long ago post stating the affair WASN'T thwarted. Yes, it was. Otherwise Tom would still be married and sneaking around behind his W's back. An affair is when a man or woman CONTINUES to dangle their AP AND their BS on a string.

 

Secondly, Trimmer, that post was awesome, as usual. Yes, who gets to decide the level at which the secret needs to plunge before we decide the secret shouldn't be kept? Of course one cannot keep the secret that a murder was committed or a child is being molested. In MY mind, a secret ALSO cannot be kept FROM A FRIEND that said friend's spouse is f'ing someone else behind their back.

 

That would be my decision, and apparently it was Caitlyn's decision as well.

 

OWoman, you make A LOT of assumptions about Caitlyn's feelings about her husband's actions in your post. I'm not sure why you think you're able to get inside someone's head like that and discern their innermost thoughts.

[Reggie]

Not sure where the assumption about the "momma" resentment comes from. I saw no evidence that the OP felt this way.

Regardless, OW's message completely neglects the issue of the duty owed to the wife, also a friend.

I agree with Trimmer. It does not appear Tom received any representations re his confidence being maintained and , if he assumed it would be he was wrong to do so. One cannot unilaterally bind another to an agreement.

IMO, friends owe a duty to protect each other, if possible. The wife was at risk for STDs, something none of the proponents of keeping this quiet seem to want to address. She was also at risk of continuing to subsidized the affair and being robbed of making an informed decision on the direction of her life.

It seems to me that people advocating secrecy seldom consider the effect on the BS. Her life is just as important as the lives of those involved in the affair. She could have wasted years operating under a false assumption. SHe may have forgone similar opportunities to find a good relationship due to her reliance on her husband's misrepresentations.

[silktricks]

Yep. It's sad - but I tried to be nice for 2 years - you see what it got me!

 

Ah, you're still nice.

[Reggie]

Right and wrong is not a 'view', it is not an ever changing Kaleidoscope that shifts, twists, adjusts, intertwines, contorts, or 'becomes' whatever we so desire or choose. The idea that morality is a subjective standard devised by us, individually, is a slippery slope to the gates of hell... plain and simple. What we do in life accounts for how we have lived our life, and whether we like it or not there is an objective standard we are each held to. The trick is getting real with what that standard is, atoning for our wrongdoings, and becoming the person some of us pretend to be. At the end of the day we have to look in the mirror. When our life comes to a conclusion it can either be something that we are proud we have lived or something we are ashamed of. Ignorance is not bliss, it is a self deception.

 

Everyone who walks the face of this earth owes one another dignified, kind and thoughtful treatment. We cannot say that "this or that" is "right or wrong" for me... and really be dealing with a full deck. We didn't write the 10 Commandments. They exist whether we accept them or not and we are held to the standards they impose whether we like it or not.

 

I would rather be tough on myself during my lifetime while I have an opportunity to change for the better than to create 'lies' that make me appear better than I 'am'.

 

Friends owe one another a duty of fairness or they should not be calling one another friends. Married people owe one another a lot more.

 

I agree with this. The notion that there is no right or wrong, just that some things are not right for someone personally, would lead to chaos.

[In_Repair]

First of all, I'd like to back up GEL here and on other recent threads where she has questioned the attacks by people that post here just to express their hatred for any OW/OM... when this board is specifically intended to be a place for them to come and find support, or at least rationally discuss their situation. I remember when I first came here lurking as a BS, back in 2007, I could not even handle reading this section of LS as I myself, at the time, had absolutely no compassion for my wife's OM. I did read the Infidelity board though, and I don't remember this many OW/OM coming over there and constantly telling the BS that they suck and everything is their fault.

 

Gee, that sounds fun... I think I'll head on over to the Addiction & Recovery board and find a drug addict to pick on, since I don't approve of that lifestyle.

 

Secondly, I'd like to thank OWoman for laying it out like she did. My large family has always looked down on infidelity and my mother gave my older sister hell when she cheated on her husband, although none of us could ever really like her husband because he was abusive. But you know what? After watching me detach from life over the last five years because I was miserable with my wife and then watching me go through the end of my marriage the way it happened... they looked past their own personal views when they saw the smile that MW has put on my face. They have even reached out to her, and one of my younger and usually very judgmental sisters even invited my MW over to go swimming at my parents house one day last week while I was working. They had a nice time. Her friends and family are the same towards me for the most part. They all know, as we do ourselves, that our situation is screwed up and we are living "wrong"... but at the same time, they are happy to finally see us happy.

[complicatedlife]

Ah, you're still nice.

You actually brought a smile to my face; thank you for saying that.

[silktricks]

You actually brought a smile to my face; thank you for saying that.

 

 

S'OK, us flowers just have to stick together and keep back the weeds of discontent... .

 

Have a good day (and you are nice).

[Athena]

Ah, you're still nice.

 

You actually brought a smile to my face; thank you for saying that.

 

CL, you are nice... and -- you don't have to be 'perfect' all the time!

 

Just come out of the shadows a little more often, okay? Lurking is not as good for you as getting into a lively debate.

[complicatedlife]

CL, you are nice... and -- you don't have to be 'perfect' all the time!

 

Just come out of the shadows a little more often, okay? Lurking is not as good for you as getting into a lively debate.

Oh, hush! I'm a sentimental girl and you guys are making me almost tear up; there ARE some nice people left here that I didn't know about!

 

Thank you, Athena. But about the lurking: i tend to want to post on controversial topics such as this one but it's difficult to do that here without it becoming 1. a personal attack and 2. Deviating from the OP's original thought/question. But maybe I'll try again and see what happens....

[complicatedlife]

Gee, that sounds fun... I think I'll head on over to the Addiction & Recovery board and find a drug addict to pick on, since I don't approve of that lifestyle.

 

Wow- quite a reflective statement.

[donnamaybe]

I find it very amusing that some posters go on and on about how everyone has different opinions and they should ALL be respected, yet those same posters bashed the OP quite harshly for HER opinion.