bark Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 I fail to see how cheating can be a self esteem booster Cheating is not in itself a "self-esteem" booster. However, when an abused or neglected spouse falls in love with the "other" man or woman, and is loved in return and again feels desirable, attractive and important, that does give a boost to his/her self-esteem. We may not like that, but it does. Nothing is as redemptive as erotic love--even in the "unworthy" context of an affair. We all want to feel loved and needed. (Disclaimer:This is not given as any justification for infidelity). Sometimes "good" things do happen to "bad" people. Link to post Share on other sites
lostforwords Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 I fail to see how cheating can be a self esteem booster. How can anyone feel good about themselves after cheating? From a WOMANS point of view....... yes it can be..... I have spoeken with a friend of mine many times.... and her reasonings around her specific affair WITH a younger man (i may add) seem to carry the same explanation "he makes me feel good about myself..... to know i can attract someone else..... and younger even..... thats a trip in itself." her status..... married to a guy that was a habitual cheater as well... he insisted she stay home and raise the children, no job or school allowed.... knocked her around plenty times sometimes even in front of thier friends...... she gained 65+ pounds etc... etc... when she first came to me and confided in me about it after years of debating with herself if she should do this i told her i would be there NO MATTER WHAT!! ... i not only stand beside her with this.... I helped her along with her DIVORCE....... she dumped the guy she fooled around with the same weekend she left her husbnd...... she also had dropped 75 pounds.... and is currently in school to become an addictions counsellor.... im trying to convince her to join this forum..... to add her INSIGHTS. Shall be INTERESTING to say the least..... There is nothing shameful about getting a divorce. It is very embarrassing and shamefull if you cheat. Nothing good comes from it. No dignity in that. Don't do it. Says you..... and in some ways i agree .... in this instance..... i do not. Who are you to say what is dignified and what isnt?.... Your judgement or opinion on what dignity is can be the difference of someone getting the s*** kicked out of her on a daily basis and dragged out for years with finally the gumption to leave with her head held up or someone getting the **** kicked out of her and finally within A YEAR meeting someone to share with as well as make her feel good about herself to leave her hub within 6 months of that affair.... saving her the years of abuse.... with holding her head up still high..... see? no difference really except what both of our opinions differ of. I chose to take the shorter whatever makes ya feel good route...... nothing wrong with that!! Link to post Share on other sites
Bronzepen Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 Anyone can get a boost from having someone show interest in them. If you have a lot of guys or even just one guy hit on you, that in it self is a boost in self esteem. Now, how you handle that come on is something else. If your married you just say, "Thank you, I am quit flattered but I am married." If the person persists then you know they don't respect you or your marriage. Safe to stay away from them even if one is single. Don't pursue your desire because there is a void missing. There will be plenty of time to fill that void after the divorce. Don't let it get to a point where you are falling in love with the "other man/woman". Never put yourself in a position where you can fall in love or lust for anyone. Sure we all want to feel loved and needed but don't let it consume you. Just know that once your divorce, you can date whoever you want instead of the cloak and dagger tryst that's involved in cheating. Don't live a lie. It's bad enough your abused and neglected by your spouse now you've lost your integrity and credibility. Link to post Share on other sites
lostforwords Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 and also keep in mind you are entitled to your opinion doesnt mean all of us have to swallow it..... im merely explaining the part you failed to see behind my post....just as i dont expect you to swallow my opinions.... still doesnt mean either of us are right or wrong..... just shows we have varying opinions..... perhaps your opinion may work for her perhaps mine may.... perhaps she will draw her own conclusions..... none the less the if you look at the very bottom of your screen youll see a message that starts out as Please Note: The suggestions and advice offered on this web site are opinions only etc.............. Link to post Share on other sites
Bronzepen Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 LostforWords. So what your saying is that if any guy makes you feel good about yourself then you would cheat? Especially if your in an abusive relationship? So when the going gets tough, instead of going, the answer is cheat? This is just cause for commiting adultery?? You need to cheat to give you the courage to leave? This makes you feel good?? You said your friend dumped the guy she was having an affair with the same weekend as the divorce. So this mysterious guy gave your friend the courage that YOU or any other friend could not do? THEN your friend dumped the mysterious guy after he had served his purpose?? Your friend held her head up high? "Yes, I cheated on my husband so that I could leave him. Then I dumped the guy I cheated with. He served his purpose. I am proud of my actions." I fail to see the dignity in that. Your friend should have left after the first kick, before this fiasco started. Link to post Share on other sites
lostforwords Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 hey buddy....... i cant change how all women feel.... im merely pointing out to YOU one of the possibilities of how an affair may make a person feel... one i feel we shouldnt JUDGE ANYBODY for... particularily if it gives her the self worth to leave her bum of a husband...... now if you cant wrap your head around that and just think with rose colored glasses than that is indeed your problem........ im merely stating that YES some women's self esteem boosts or they get back their self worth from the other man/woman they are CHEATING with!!!!! im not asking you to accept this....... but perhaps see a form of positivity that actually came FROM it and it down right suits some women, that does not mean its a form of acceptance, it just means what doesnt WORK for you could very well WORK for someone else..... Try oh please do TRY to look beyond the barriers of what YOU determine is wrong or right...... that is why PEOPLE have varying differences of OPINIONS.... if we were all the same it would be a damn boring world..... REMEMBER EVERYONE HAS THEIR OWN OPINIONS........ Link to post Share on other sites
lostforwords Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 Posting by Bark: And heaven help the poster who advocates a more tolerant approach when he or she has had the temerity to have an affair and the courage to admit it on these boards. I'm still picking up my body pieces. DAMMIT bark...... you accidently grabbed my leg...... here have yours..... and gimme mine..... Link to post Share on other sites
quankanne Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 lostforwords, you said that your GF dropped 75 pounds after dumping both her husband and lover. Surely there was more weight than that! Link to post Share on other sites
lostforwords Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Link to post Share on other sites
kinkylee Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 Originally posted by lostforwords I chose to take the shorter whatever makes ya feel good route...... Let me ask you this, why aren't you divorced yet? You don't consider your and your husbands relationships outside of your marriage as cheating? Link to post Share on other sites
lostforwords Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 Actually my husband and I have been legally sperated for approx 4 years now. Here in canada when a husband and wife have been seperated for more than a year it automatically is considered legally seperated. as far as the divorce is concerned my answer is because I just choose not to at this moment (I quit asking after the 8th time), if you were to ask him im sure he would give you the same answer as well. Thank you for taking so much interest in my marital status and im more than happy to clarify to you in the future any other questions you may have that I feel I can answer for you. Link to post Share on other sites
kinkylee Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 I view being seperated as still being married. Some couples seem to just display a fringe benefits kind of deal, or ex lovers with benefits I should say. If you wanted to divroce him so bad, as you say you asked 8 times, then why not just serve the papers. And granted I don't clearly know how things are handled in Canada, so please explain this to me if I am misperceiving how the process takes place. I can certainly understand if it was a financial issue, but after 4 years? Are you sure you're not holding on in hopes he will reconcile with you? I wanted to know since you seem to have this whole view of cheating not being wrong, or as a matter of raising one's low self-esteeem/ego. And I wondered if that's what you are telling yourself to make it ok since you are not divorced. Once again, let me know if I am just misperceiving this. I find your answers to most posts very interesting. Thanks for answering so quickly. Link to post Share on other sites
lostforwords Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 Well KL: To answer your questions as I love the fact that a Guest user has taken great interest in me...... I view being seperated as still being married Fotunately in the eyes of the courts once a person is considered legally seperated, they are now pretty much considered divorced, its just a matter of a piece of paper that defines the two. I consider myself Not married and nor does he, and as for him and I not actually getting divorced yet..... its merely a difference of financial matters eg: he just bought a house with his girlfriend as did i. Most times we have asked one another for a divorce it was in the middle of an argument so we both as well, decided to keep things in perspective and rationalize we wont divorce until the time is right and have agreed to never do it when we are angry with eachother..... that just may cause a long out expensive battle neither of us wants to go through. We both come to the same agreement that instead of wasting our money on a divorce quite yet, we could utilize it otherways..... iam a single mother of 2 teenagers..... so i need to pick and choose. We have both decided this is the best for us. when we are ready for one tho if youll give me your email address i can keep you updated. Are you sure you're not holding on in hopes he will reconcile with you? Not at all seeing as how I was the one who ended our marriage, we are both quite happy with the living arrangemnts as it suits himself and myself...... and more importantly our children we have together. Everything is kept as amicable as it could be due to the sake of our children..... and the fact I was in a previous relationship out of the country as well had partly to do with the amicability. I wanted to know since you seem to have this whole view of cheating not being wrong, or as a matter of raising one's low self-esteeem/ego. And I wondered if that's what you are telling yourself to make it ok since you are not divorced. Iam on both sides of the fence as far as my feelings are concerned regarding this.... in this day and age it seems everyone i know almost is going thru one form of relationship problem whether it be divorce, seperation, infedelity OR insecurities, iam a friend who will support them no matter what their decisions are and for whaetver reasons they have. I do not throw stones.... if a person decides to make a judgement about me because of my opinions and feelings so be it.... just proves what little they actually know about me. Once again, let me know if I am just misperceiving this I think i have pointed out to you already that you are. So in conclusion KL....... i hope that feeds your interest in me..... oh and be sure to visit my website listed on my profile and sign my guestbook...... Toodles Link to post Share on other sites
kinkylee Posted November 20, 2003 Share Posted November 20, 2003 Thanks for the info, that certainly clears up some questions. As to why I am a guest still, I have not entertained the idea of registerring as a friend of mine forwarded the LoveShack url to me. And I have to say, your quibbles with other members are quite interesting/entertaining/informative. Sorry if you think I have singled you out for this. That wasn't my intention at all. I hope you and your husband/ex/whatever continue to have a great relationship for the sake of your children. That is quite admirable as not all couples remain civil after a divorce or seperation. You seem like a very strong opinionated person, and I like that. Keep up the great work with your posts. Thanks for the invite on that website, I'll make sure to look at it! Link to post Share on other sites
lostforwords Posted November 21, 2003 Share Posted November 21, 2003 oh hey no problem..... by the way heres another thread you may want to check out as i have lots to say in there as well..... http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t27716/ hopefully youll get some great insight from that thread...... i know its sure helped me your gonna love Loveshack...... LOL Link to post Share on other sites
kinkylee Posted November 21, 2003 Share Posted November 21, 2003 Wow. Sounds like you've got yourself a grade A stalker there. Good luck with that one! I don't have the url handy, but there is an article that I read some time ago describing what you can do about someone pestering you online, making threats, whatever the case is. At any rate I would have certainly reported her for the Anthrax thing! I like to see you debate posts though. Not too much of that going on in the thread. But hey, you said it helped you out, so it must not be too bad when you're not going back and forth with someone. If it makes you more comfortable I can certainly register an account here so that we could discuss things more privately. I don't have a problem with that or giving you my email, of course one of my friends said it would be removed by the mods for personal info. So I wouldn't want to get them peeved at me so early in the game. Have a great night if I don't hear from you again directing me somewhere else. Link to post Share on other sites
bark Posted November 21, 2003 Share Posted November 21, 2003 One thing I've noticed on the infidelity threads are the "divorce before adultery" posts. A number of posters view adultery so negatively that divorce is given as the preferred option to having an affair. While perhaps reinforcing the poster's value system, is this "terminator" advice sensible as to many marriages? Must honesty and the ensuing divorce to forestall adultery, however, always trump marriage? If a spouse, for whatever reason, seriously considers having an an affair, is divorce always preferable to the affair? Is a marriage wounded by an affair better than that marriage's death? By recommending divorce as an option in lieu of an affair, are these anti-adultery posters sacrificing marriage and family, however hurt, on the alter of absolute fidelity and honesty? Under the law of unintended consequences, is this "divorce before adultery" advice actually harmful to some marriages ? Can adultery, in some marriages, especially with young children involved, actually be preferable to divorce? Are we destroying troubled marriages in order to save them. Are there any longitudinal studies as to what harms children more: a divorce or a parent's affair? On some level, I find this "divorce before adultery" advice disconcerting. Link to post Share on other sites
lostforwords Posted November 21, 2003 Share Posted November 21, 2003 Bark to answer your questions: yes yes maybe no yes maybe not sure yes..... still not sure yes and no... lol good to see ya on here dood..... did ya get the message about you accidently taking my leg.... cuz ya here........ i had yours LOLOLOL Link to post Share on other sites
lostforwords Posted November 21, 2003 Share Posted November 21, 2003 Wow. Sounds like you've got yourself a grade A stalker there. Good luck with that one! I don't have the url handy, but there is an article that I read some time ago describing what you can do about someone pestering you online, making threats, whatever the case is. At any rate I would have certainly reported her for the Anthrax thing! Actually KL.... lol i love calling you that.... actually i prefer calling people by their first name bad habit..... ok Kink.... To just give ya some insight abut the whole stalker thing..... ah i just put it behind me because you see..... past experiences have always proved to me that it probably bothers her no matter what I do...... so like i said..... im going to put my FAITH in HER.... to TAKE her WORD for it..... after all... if i dont have FAITH with HER than i never should have taken her WORD for it in the first place and just call me foolish... but im always that type of person who TRIES SO HARD to find the BEST and GOOD in EVERYBODY!!! have a good night Link to post Share on other sites
Bronzepen Posted November 21, 2003 Share Posted November 21, 2003 Originally posted by lostforwords hey buddy....... i cant change how all women feel.... im merely pointing out to YOU one of the possibilities of how an affair may make a person feel... one i feel we shouldnt JUDGE ANYBODY for... particularily if it gives her the self worth to leave her bum of a husband...... im merely stating that YES some women's self esteem boosts or they get back their self worth from the other man/woman they are CHEATING with!!!!! im not asking you to accept this I don't believe the affair had anything to do with her leaving her husband. I give her kudos for finally having the courage to leave on her own. Saying that cheating was the cause for leaving, makes no sense. The affair just filled her void that her abusive husband had emptied. Nothing positive came out of it. Still does'nt make it right. 2 wrongs don't make a right. As for Judging.....YES we should judge people based on their actions....I think it's naive not too. If we follow your way of thinking then I guess we should not judge people that have killed. We should say...."Well, he might have killed 10 people but maybe he feels better about himself. Maybe he is really a nice guy." How about a pedophile?? Lets use your friends story with a twist. She is in an abusive relationship but now she finds a 10 year old boy that satisfies her and makes her feel good about herself. Does'nt sound like a person that I would admire. Cheating is the same thing. It's NOT apples and oranges. My point is, your friend did something wrong to feel better about herself. Does the mean justify the end? In this case it doesn't. I think your the one with the rose colored glasses. There is right and there is wrong and YES there is diffrent. If you want to be diffrent then go right ahead, as long as, you don't hurt anyone else around you. Link to post Share on other sites
lostforwords Posted November 21, 2003 Share Posted November 21, 2003 I don't believe the affair had anything to do with her leaving her husband. I give her kudos for finally having the courage to leave on her own. Saying that cheating was the cause for leaving, makes no sense. The affair just filled her void that her abusive husband had emptied. Nothing positive came out of it. Still does'nt make it right. 2 wrongs don't make a right. How do you know? are you her brain? are you her gut feelings? do you occupy ANYTHING about her to actually know why she did what she did? or any woman for that matter? NO your not, you can sit and base judgement on her all you want it still doesnt change the fact why she did what she did and the outcome of it. Im sure shed love to see someone convincing her the reasons she did it...... and remember what doesnt work for you may work for other people.... you way is not law nor is it 100% of societies way of thinking..... and i never said cheating was the cause of her leaving.... it had PART to do it... the feelings she gained her self worth her self esteem the GOOD feelings she got from her lover gave her the strength....... but alas i could tell you this over and over and over and you still wouldnt understand.... its like kicking a dead dog.... dude im not telling you to agree with it, iam asking you only see that theres NUMEROUS different reasons why..... and your reasons or opinions arent the status quo..... as far as you determining nothing postivie came out of it..... actually if you had actually OPENED yourself and absorbed and understood the entire post that i have been writing about this you will see that NOT only did she get the strength to LEAVE her a**h*** husband but she ALSO went back to school lost weight etc..... but obviously stuff like that means s*** you.... its too bad you cant see beyond your front nose to see the positiveness.... As for Judging.....YES we should judge people based on their actions....I think it's naive not too. If we follow your way of thinking then I guess we should not judge people that have killed. We should say...."Well, he might have killed 10 people but maybe he feels better about himself. Maybe he is really a nice guy." How about a pedophile?? Lets use your friends story with a twist. She is in an abusive relationship but now she finds a 10 year old boy that satisfies her and makes her feel good about herself. Does'nt sound like a person that I would admire. Cheating is the same thing. It's NOT apples and oranges. My point is, your friend did something wrong to feel better about herself. Does the mean justify the end? In this case it doesn't. and for you to compare cheating to what you said at top...... i mean really, im done with you on this topic due to this particular paragraph.... after i read this, it only made me understand what kind of person would actually compare the 2..... someone who obviously lacks the knowledge to open his mind.... to see there are other opinions in this world...... i dont claim to say what she did was right i do belive however she did what she needed to do ...... and if you cant accept people doing things the way they do..... then i feel for ya..... this particular paragraph opened my eyes to see im dealing with someone who will never accept the fact this woman cheated for all the wrong reasons but it had a positive outcome that gave her the balls to finally get out of her dead end relationship..... ah the saying goes..... You can lead a horse to water, but ya cant make him drink!!! Link to post Share on other sites
Bronzepen Posted November 21, 2003 Share Posted November 21, 2003 Originally posted by bark One thing I've noticed on the infidelity threads are the "divorce before adultery" posts. A number of posters view adultery so negatively that divorce is given as the preferred option to having an affair. While perhaps reinforcing the poster's value system, is this "terminator" advice sensible as to many marriages? Must honesty and the ensuing divorce to forestall adultery, however, always trump marriage? If a spouse, for whatever reason, seriously considers having an an affair, is divorce always preferable to the affair? Is a marriage wounded by an affair better than that marriage's death? By recommending divorce as an option in lieu of an affair, are these anti-adultery posters sacrificing marriage and family, however hurt, on the alter of absolute fidelity and honesty? Under the law of unintended consequences, is this "divorce before adultery" advice actually harmful to some marriages ? Can adultery, in some marriages, especially with young children involved, actually be preferable to divorce? Are we destroying troubled marriages in order to save them. Are there any longitudinal studies as to what harms children more: a divorce or a parent's affair? On some level, I find this "divorce before adultery" advice disconcerting. The way I see it, if your going to have an affair then the marriage is already over. For whatever reason, your spouse has not filled your need and desire. Hence, if the marriage is over, get a divorce then get back on the dating scene. Concerning children. Children will be children. Some will still love you in spite of what you do and some won't. BUT if you want to set an example then don't have an affair or anything else that you don't want your children to do. Link to post Share on other sites
Bronzepen Posted November 21, 2003 Share Posted November 21, 2003 Originally posted by lostforwords How do you know? are you her brain? are you her gut feelings? do you occupy ANYTHING about her to actually know why she did what she did? or any woman for that matter? NO your not, you can sit and base judgement on her all you want it still doesnt change the fact why she did what she did and the outcome of it. Im sure shed love to see someone convincing her the reasons she did it...... and remember what doesnt work for you may work for other people.... you way is not law nor is it 100% of societies way of thinking..... and i never said cheating was the cause of her leaving.... it had PART to do it... the feelings she gained her self worth her self esteem the GOOD feelings she got from her lover gave her the strength....... but alas i could tell you this over and over and over and you still wouldnt understand.... its like kicking a dead dog.... dude im not telling you to agree with it, iam asking you only see that theres NUMEROUS different reasons why..... and your reasons or opinions arent the status quo..... as far as you determining nothing postivie came out of it..... actually if you had actually OPENED yourself and absorbed and understood the entire post that i have been writing about this you will see that NOT only did she get the strength to LEAVE her a**h*** husband but she ALSO went back to school lost weight etc..... but obviously stuff like that means s*** you.... its too bad you cant see beyond your front nose to see the positiveness.... and for you to compare cheating to what you said at top...... i mean really, im done with you on this topic due to this particular paragraph.... after i read this, it only made me understand what kind of person would actually compare the 2..... someone who obviously lacks the knowledge to open his mind.... to see there are other opinions in this world...... i dont claim to say what she did was right i do belive however she did what she needed to do ...... and if you cant accept people doing things the way they do..... then i feel for ya..... this particular paragraph opened my eyes to see im dealing with someone who will never accept the fact this woman cheated for all the wrong reasons but it had a positive outcome that gave her the balls to finally get out of her dead end relationship..... ah the saying goes..... You can lead a horse to water, but ya cant make him drink!!! I don't claim to know what she was thinking but I do know that saying cheating was one of the reasons to give her the guts to leave is a load of crap. She left because she finally had enough. Mr. pickle tickle had nothing to do with it. Maybe that's your problem. You don't see cheating as a big deal. It's life goes on. Do what you gotta do to make yourself happy. Who cares who gets hurt along the way. Me, me, me.......Very selfish. Your friend had a lot of alternative ways to get out of the marriage. She made the wrong choice. You said "What doesn't work for you may work for other people." Come on! Killing people doesn't work for me. But according to you if it works for others then hey let them kill people. Don't make a statement like that unless you know what your talking about. I am open minded but I have common sense too. Link to post Share on other sites
lostforwords Posted November 21, 2003 Share Posted November 21, 2003 You said "What doesn't work for you may work for other people." Come on! Killing people doesn't work for me. But according to you if it works for others then hey let them kill people. Don't make a statement like that unless you know what your talking about. ok mr rationalized THINKING.... to think about killing and cheating being the same thing....wooooshhhhhh..... just curious tho... are you a jilted husband?...... cuz you seem to not be able to get passed the whole cheating/murder/holierthanthourightesounesscrap (my opinion from reading your posts) dood you think what you want...... its your opinion..... just know you cant force it down my throat but nice try....... its a good damn thing everyone is entitled to their own opinion..... LOLOLOL and as far as me making a statement..... i seem to obviously know a heck of a lot more and be openminded than you are/do. Maybe that's your problem. You don't see cheating as a big deal. It's life goes on. Do what you gotta do to make yourself happy. Who cares who gets hurt along the way. Me, me, me.......Very selfish. Your friend had a lot of alternative ways to get out of the marriage. She made the wrong choice. and btw just from reading this.... gives me the lil gut feeling you def are a jilted hubby........... dood..... look past those rose colored glasses.... thats all im asking... im not saying cheating is a good thing.... but people do it for different reasons, doesnt mean we have to agree with it.... just means thats everyone is different, and unfortunately your trying so hard to convince me i should be thinking otherwise.... when sadly enough im feeling nothing but pity...... Link to post Share on other sites
Bronzepen Posted November 21, 2003 Share Posted November 21, 2003 Originally posted by lostforwords ok mr rationalized THINKING.... to think about killing and cheating being the same thing....wooooshhhhhh..... just curious tho... are you a jilted husband?...... cuz you seem to not be able to get passed the whole cheating/murder/holierthanthourightesounesscrap (my opinion from reading your posts) dood you think what you want...... its your opinion..... just know you cant force it down my throat but nice try....... its a good damn thing everyone is entitled to their own opinion..... LOLOLOL and as far as me making a statement..... i seem to obviously know a heck of a lot more and be openminded than you are/do. and btw just from reading this.... gives me the lil gut feeling you def are a jilted hubby........... dood..... look past those rose colored glasses.... thats all im asking... im not saying cheating is a good thing.... but people do it for different reasons, doesnt mean we have to agree with it.... just means thats everyone is different, and unfortunately your trying so hard to convince me i should be thinking otherwise.... when sadly enough im feeling nothing but pity...... Cheating and killing are not the same thing but they are both wrong. Which is my point. YES I agree everyone is diffrent but just because we are diffrent doesn't mean we should look the other way or have no opinion when someone does something wrong. Not forcing anything down your throat. Your trying no harder to convince me that I am wrong then I am trying to convince you that I am right. According to you, when you talk it's an opinion, when I talk it's not. Who thinks who is holier than thou? We just agree to disagree AND THAT is what makes the world go round. Having an opinion and being judgemental are the same thing. Just one sounds nicer then the other. BTW I am not married nor have I ever been. Link to post Share on other sites
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