Does OW/OM fOW/fOM use religion/faith to justify their actions?

[complicatedlife]

I am very curious about this thought. See, I posed something (below), and was accused of using that to support my ignorance and to justify things that I do that are wrong, and I am stagnating my growth as a human being. Hmm. I don't think so, as I have held these beliefs since I was married at 21 (well into my 30's now).

 

So what do you all think - is it the popular belief that we are adjusting our moral codes to justify our "behavior"?

 

1. Right and wrong - to Christians, it is an objective principle, to some, it is an ethical dilemma wherein right and wrong is but the same thing, the only difference being the CHOICE between right and wrong.

 

2. Therefore, one cannot be considered mentally insane/not playing with a full deck based on their CHOICE not to CHOOSE - I could get into some monism and dualism here, but that's a whole different thread topic.

 

3. 10 Commandments? Not everyone is Christian. There are Buddhists, there are Muslims, there are Jews. So how can we hold someone who is of a completely different faith from us (whoever "us" may be) by our (whoever "our may be) standards?

 

4 There are others who believe in action/cause and consequence (known as the Millian Theory) as opposed to a traditional "right and wrong". An example: A terrorist is about to blow up a store - you catch this terrorist in the middle of his attempts and have the opportunity to kill him before he can do it; do you do it? Is it right or wrong? Or do we kill him and say it's an action worth the consequence?

 

This is exactly what I mean when I personally say that i cannot judge someone based on my own ethical and moral code which IS based in Christianity.

[Thaddeus]

Religion has been used all throughout history as justification for innumerable horrors.

 

I'd personally be extremely wary of someone who gets their moral code from the bible.

 

• Exodus 21:7 says it's ok to sell your daughter into slavery.
  
• In 1 Samuel 15 and Deuteronomy 7:1-2, god orders genocide
  

There are plenty of other examples of this sort of thing but I'm too lazy right now to look them up.

 

Point is, the bible is not a guide for morality. It never was. It's a conglomeration of myths and legends written by dozens (maybe hundreds) of people over maybe a thousand or more years. It's got nothing whatsoever to do with morality.

[complicatedlife]

Religion has been used all throughout history as justification for innumerable horrors.

 

I'd personally be extremely wary of someone who gets their moral code from the bible.

 

• Exodus 21:7 says it's ok to sell your daughter into slavery.
  
• In 1 Samuel 15 and Deuteronomy 7:1-2, god orders genocide
  

There are plenty of other examples of this sort of thing but I'm too lazy right now to look them up.

 

Point is, the bible is not a guide for morality. It never was. It's a conglomeration of myths and legends written by dozens (maybe hundreds) of people over maybe a thousand or more years. It's got nothing whatsoever to do with morality.

 

I agree and disagree with this.

 

See, you don't believe the Bible is a guide for morality because you believe that what's in it is legend and myth- but some people do believe that everything in it is indeed true and accurate, so they base their morality on it.

 

If you don't believe in the Bible, then of course it's not the basis of morality for you.

 

May I ask...are you a believer in the Millian Theory?

[Thaddeus]

...but some people do believe that everything in it is indeed true and accurate, so they base their morality on it.

Some do, yes. I steer clear of them when possible because, as outlined above, the so-called moral code that's contained in the bible is, IMO, self-serving and monumentally brutal.

May I ask...are you a believer in the Millian Theory?

I'm not familiar with that term, so I Googled it the references I found had to do with semantics. I'm not sure what you mean.

[complicatedlife]

Some do, yes. I steer clear of them when possible because, as outlined above, the so-called moral code that's contained in the bible is, IMO, self-serving and monumentally brutal.I'm not familiar with that term, so I Googled it the references I found had to do with semantics. I'm not sure what you mean.

 

1. Would you mind sharing an example of what you think is self-serving and brutal? Curious

 

2. Sorry about that:

The person is John Stuart Mill and it's the action/consequences theory.

Greatest Happiness Principle

 

The engine of Mill's ethical theory is his Greatest Happiness Principle, according to which "actions are right in proportion as they tend to promote happiness, wrong as they tend to produce the reverse of happiness." Every human being tries to promote his or her own happiness, and avoid unhappiness. This is natural, not ethical. Promoting happiness becomes an ethical theory when it is applied to all human beings, not just ourselves. Mill's utilitarian calculus thus figures out how many people are affected by an action, how they are affected, and therefore whether the action is right or wrong. Thus, the Greatest Happiness Principle tells us that an action is right in so far as it promotes happiness in all people affected by that action, and wrong in so far as it brings unhappiness to the people affected by that action.

For example, suppose someone is made happier by travel, and books himself a trip to Tahiti. The pleasure he experiences by this trip is taken into account in Mill's utilitarian calculus. However, if he robs a bank to pay for his trip, then the utilitarian calculus also takes into consideration the pain many people were caused by the bank robbery. The unhappiness created by the robbery vastly outweighs the happiness of one traveler, and thus, this action is immoral.

Read more: http://philosophy.suite101.com/article.cfm/the_utilitarianism_of_john_stuart_mill#ixzz0M6OAizSa

[Teslacoil]

Some people do believe that everything in the bible is true and accurate. Some people also believe that the Moon landing happened on a sound stage. Some people believe the Earth is flat.

 

Whether or not you believe something is true isn't important. What is important is whether or not it is true.

 

If you argue that something is true simply because the bible says so, you're really never going to get anywhere arguing morality with anyone.

 

So if you insist on believing that what is right and wrong comes from the bible, and that if the bible says something is right then it cannot be wrong... just do yourself a favor and don't get into arguments like that. You'll never get anywhere.

[GreenEyedLady]

So what do you all think - is it the popular belief that we are adjusting our moral codes to justify our "behavior"?

 

I don't justify my actions. There's nothing to justify it. I can make the argument that I didn't know he was married, but when I found out I didn't leave him.

 

I didn't adjust my moral code, I acted contrary to it. I don't blame anyone else for that, that was my choice.

 

I suppose there are those who would argue that I have no moral code and there are those who would argue that my moral code is that what is done in love is right.

 

I don't believe either of the two arguments. I am a Christian and I know what I did was wrong. But I didn't go to Church during that time and profess I was this great Christian and act like a hypocrite.

 

There is no justification for hurting someone else unless it is in self-defense. That is my moral code.

 

And I didn't follow that. But I take responsibility for that.

 

As for the forgiveness and repentance part, it says to ask for forgiveness and sin no more. That covers all sins, no matter how much we as people think some sins "weigh" more than others.

 

I think we as a people are full of vengeance when we are hurt and we want those that hurt us to suffer. So we pick and choose the Bibble verses that support our view.

 

In short, I don't justify my behavior. I take responsibility for it. I have made my peace with God and myself and extended the olive branch. There is nothing more I can do.

 

GEL

[complicatedlife]

I don't justify my actions. There's nothing to justify it. I can make the argument that I didn't know he was married, but when I found out I didn't leave him.

 

I didn't adjust my moral code, I acted contrary to it. I don't blame anyone else for that, that was my choice.

 

I suppose there are those who would argue that I have no moral code and there are those who would argue that my moral code is that what is done in love is right.

 

I don't believe either of the two arguments. I am a Christian and I know what I did was wrong. But I didn't go to Church during that time and profess I was this great Christian and act like a hypocrite.

 

There is no justification for hurting someone else unless it is in self-defense. That is my moral code.

 

And I didn't follow that. But I take responsibility for that.

 

As for the forgiveness and repentance part, it says to ask for forgiveness and sin no more. That covers all sins, no matter how much we as people think some sins "weigh" more than others.

 

I think we as a people are full of vengeance when we are hurt and we want those that hurt us to suffer. So we pick and choose the Bibble verses that support our view.

 

In short, I don't justify my behavior. I take responsibility for it. I have made my peace with God and myself and extended the olive branch. There is nothing more I can do.

 

GEL

 

Wow. And people think you're mean.

 

I couldn't have written that any better. Really.

[complicatedlife]

Some people do believe that everything in the bible is true and accurate. Some people also believe that the Moon landing happened on a sound stage. Some people believe the Earth is flat.

 

Whether or not you believe something is true isn't important. What is important is whether or not it is true.

 

If you argue that something is true simply because the bible says so, you're really never going to get anywhere arguing morality with anyone.

 

So if you insist on believing that what is right and wrong comes from the bible, and that if the bible says something is right then it cannot be wrong... just do yourself a favor and don't get into arguments like that. You'll never get anywhere.

But....what about the fact that people believe that it IS true because they have faith?

 

I understand where you are coming from because I learned that right and wrong is simply mental/a state of mind, and something that an individual chooses. However, when you bring spirituality into it, things start to get very fuzzy because spirituality is based on believing what we cannot see...

[Gamine]

But....what about the fact that people believe that it IS true because they have faith?

 

I understand where you are coming from because I learned that right and wrong is simply mental/a state of mind, and something that an individual chooses. However, when you bring spirituality into it, things start to get very fuzzy because spirituality is based on believing what we cannot see...

 

Spirituality is based on 'being' because we see.

[complicatedlife]

Spirituality is based on 'being' because we see.

Hmmm...not sure I agree with this as spirituality is something that by the very exact definition of it can't be seen, which is also faith. We have "faith" so we live that out by "spiritual practice".

[Thaddeus]

1. Would you mind sharing an example of what you think is self-serving and brutal? Curious

Well, the idea that an adulterer/ess should be put to death (Lev 20:10), or that homosexuals should be killed (Lev 20:13) both come to mind, . Plus the examples I noted above.

2. Sorry about that:

The person is John Stuart Mill and it's the action/consequences theory.

Greatest Happiness Principle

I've not really studied that. Let me get back to you on that.

[Gamine]

Hmmm...not sure I agree with this as spirituality is something that by the very exact definition of it can't be seen, which is also faith. We have "faith" so we live that out by "spiritual practice".

 

 

You have described yourself as spiritual.

 

Things do not have to be in physical form to be seen. Faith is that which bridges us on our journey to enlightenment. Once there, we no longer need faith because it has now become a part of our very existence in every way.

[Teslacoil]

But....what about the fact that people believe that it IS true because they have faith?

 

I understand where you are coming from because I learned that right and wrong is simply mental/a state of mind, and something that an individual chooses. However, when you bring spirituality into it, things start to get very fuzzy because spirituality is based on believing what we cannot see...

 

Believing something is true doesn't make it true, no matter where it's written.

 

If you tell me you believe 2+2=5 because you have faith, I'm not going to argue with you. You're not arguing facts, you're arguing feelings. How can I tell you your feelings are incorrect? At the same time, you're not going to be able to convince anyone else that 2+2=5 except those people who already have the same "faith" as you do.

 

So debating anything essentially becomes useless. The only people who will ever agree with you are the ones who already did to begin with.

[Gamine]

Believing something is true doesn't make it true, no matter where it's written.

 

If you tell me you believe 2+2=5 because you have faith, I'm not going to argue with you. You're not arguing facts, you're arguing feelings. How can I tell you your feelings are incorrect? At the same time, you're not going to be able to convince anyone else that 2+2=5 except those people who already have the same "faith" as you do.

 

So debating anything essentially becomes useless. The only people who will ever agree with you are the ones who already did to begin with.

 

 

Words are but something that bring us to the well. It is our choice to drink or not to drink. Thought is the unplowed ground. Enlightenment is the field planted in all its glory.

[donnamaybe]

Wow. And people think you're mean.

 

I couldn't have written that any better. Really.

 

Some of her post ARE very mean and calculated to cut. That's true.

 

HOWEVER, I agree with you that that post was great. GEL, you have your beliefs and you acted against them, BUT YOU OWN IT!

 

You get a bunny GEL!!! ---> (can that be construed as an olive branch? )

[utterer of lies]

use religion/faith to justify their actions?

 

 

A need to justify actions implies feelings of guilt

[65tr6]

I am not a christian. I am not religious. Sometimes I wish I was (to get through what I am going through !).

 

But I agree with your statement..it boils down to choosing between right and wrong.

 

I dont think it is rocket science. If you think it is wrong, you do it anyway, then you hope that one day you get the wakeup call you need to fix it.

 

 

Not everyone is Christian. There are Buddhists' date=' there are Muslims, there are Jews. So how can we hold someone who is of a completely different faith from us (whoever "us" may be) by our (whoever "our may be) standards? .[/quote']

 

You didnt list my religion and that is ok. lol. There is lot of common sense and overlap between most religions. Some are more tolerant than the others. But on issues such as infidelity, they all are fairly consistent in their message.

 

This is exactly what I mean when I personally say that i cannot judge someone based on my own ethical and moral code which IS based in Christianity.

 

I don't know about this. You judge people's actions not people themselves. And if they continue to go down the wrong path consistently then yes I would probably judge them. An action is either Right or Wrong. If you dont judge, how do you expect people to grow ? You judge people only if they break the law ? I don't agree.

[Gamine]

I am not a christian. I am not religious. Sometimes I wish I was (to get through what I am going through !).

 

But I agree with your statement..it boils down to choosing between right and wrong.

 

I dont think it is rocket science. If you think it is wrong, you do it anyway, then you hope that one day you get the wakeup call you need to fix it.

 

 

 

 

You didnt list my religion and that is ok. lol. There is lot of common sense and overlap between most religions. Some are more tolerant than the others. But on issues such as infidelity, they all are fairly consistent in their message.

 

 

 

I don't know about this. You judge people's actions not people themselves. And if they continue to go down the wrong path consistently then yes I would probably judge them. An action is either Right or Wrong. If you dont judge, how do you expect people to grow ? You judge people only if they break the law ? I don't agree.

 

There is quite a bit of wisdom in your words.

[Reggie]

I'm with 65 on this one. I am not at all sophisticated when it comes to religous teachings, other than what was , basically , shoved down my throat by nuns and some Jesuits(oh, that sounds wrong in light of my altar boy status and the recent revelations about pedestry in the priesthood. Did not mean it that way.)

One cannot go through life without taking a person's actions into account in making an assessment of him/her. Last i checked, Ted Bundy was not getting a lot of calls for babysitting jobs from prison.

The one thing that I see consistently raised by OM/OW as a justification for cheating is their judgements on both the state of the marriage and the character/behavior of the BS. This always appears to me to be a rationalization for the actions they know are wrong, without regard to religion.

If this was not the case, what possible relevance would the allegation that in your situation, for example CL, the BW had embezzled, cheated first, or stolen? Clearly , you feel the need to justify your actions, which, I expect , go against what you know to be right.

I see this all the time in OW's posts, as well. She gratuitously slips in remarks about the BW's character and her perception of her deficiencies and abuses. It comes up regardless of the topic, in many cases. Once again, a clear sign that, on some level, she feels what she has done requires justification.

If someone feels okay about what they are doing, generally, we do not see all the justifications trotted out.

[jj33]

I think most religions hold the 10 commandments in common whether or not they call it that.

 

But religion is personal. Not everyone will interpret things the same way (look at the differences in teh Muslim world between teh fundamentalists and the moderates).

 

HOlding someone accountable on religious grounds (especially when you dont know them and dont know what their religous beliefs are the same as yours) is NEVER right in my view.

 

Thats why there are laws, because they override religious norms and apply regardless of whether an individual believes its is right or wrong.

[complicatedlife]

You have described yourself as spiritual.

 

Things do not have to be in physical form to be seen. Faith is that which bridges us on our journey to enlightenment. Once there, we no longer need faith because it has now become a part of our very existence in every way.

I need faith in many different ways. But it's understood that you feel that you no longer need it on your spiritual journey.

[complicatedlife]

Well, the idea that an adulterer/ess should be put to death (Lev 20:10), or that homosexuals should be killed (Lev 20:13) both come to mind, . Plus the examples I noted above.I've not really studied that. Let me get back to you on that.

Those would be what my faith considers "old laws".

 

Let me know what you think.

[complicatedlife]

Believing something is true doesn't make it true, no matter where it's written.

 

If you tell me you believe 2+2=5 because you have faith, I'm not going to argue with you. You're not arguing facts, you're arguing feelings. How can I tell you your feelings are incorrect? At the same time, you're not going to be able to convince anyone else that 2+2=5 except those people who already have the same "faith" as you do.

 

So debating anything essentially becomes useless. The only people who will ever agree with you are the ones who already did to begin with.

 

Hmm..the math/quantitative and faith analogy - you just can't do it because they are SO different.

[complicatedlife]

Some of her post ARE very mean and calculated to cut. That's true.

 

HOWEVER, I agree with you that that post was great. GEL, you have your beliefs and you acted against them, BUT YOU OWN IT!

 

You get a bunny GEL!!! ---> (can that be construed as an olive branch? )

 

Beauty right there.