Nice guys dont finish jack squat!!...sigh anyone can help me?

[monkey00]

well ..as i said in a previous post i went to the movies with my friend yesterday night...she was watching the movie and i wasnt really giving it much attention. tried to put my arm around her but didnt wanna freak her out, so in the end i just ended up putting my arm along the top of her seat...i think she noticed what i was trying to do.

 

I then went out to eat with her + her cousin and friend. then went to karaoke + bar (Same place) . my friend and her cousin were the ones singing i didnt sing anything until the end. I was sleepy, bored, depressed, and drank about 5 beers. ahh it felt so good i was buzzed for about 2 hours. I asked if there was anyone in school she liked, she nodded with a "no" i asked why , nodded with a "no". since i was sleepy and buzzed i went over to my friend and leaned my head toward her, touched my hand with hers for 2 seconds but she moved it...u know what this means. Throughout the whole night she asked if i was ok i said yeah. She apologized that she invited me since iwasnt haveing a good time and was bored, but i said dont worry. But that wasnt the real reason....

She spent the last hour sitting with me and not hang out with her cousin cause she feels bad if she left me sitting alone.

There are times where i feel so useless....I'm always being the nice guy to her..

I offer my jacket to her just about everytime she says she's cold, one time she said i nagged like her mom. She wore her new shoes yesterday and said her feet was hurting, i asked several times how she was doing. i go to her house and fix her computer problems.

 

BEING NICE is going to be my end. I just realized that it's probably annoying to her. And she asks me to hang out with her probably cause she feels she owes it to me since i help her all the time and never once was mean to her.....She said so much times yesterday that "You're such a good friend, (name)" that i couldnt even count....hearing that just makes me wanna strangle myself...cause its so hard for me whhen i feel so much for her.

 

I'm going to see her in a few days in class soon...I think i'll just distance myself from her, not talk to her as much...stop being so nice all the time...

 

Do you think being too worrisome or "nice" is annoying?? And i apologize often...is this also to my disadvantage ( in terms of nice guy)?? I feel so useless in a way that she feels i cant make my own choices, usually i say "its ok" and clinging to her and haning out w/her friends, WTF am i thinking that makes me seem even more useless...I dont have a bloody car like her ex-bf/cousin/cousin bf to drive her home, theyre around 4-5 years older than her/me. Do you think distancing myself from her is being kinda pussy of me cause she will be able to tell what my reasons are. We are really close friends, you could say too close, she tells me everything and even showed me all of her album pics yesterday!! the times i tell her about myself or related to, she doesnt show any much of an interest.

 

What should i do in this situation?? guys i need some serious help. i feel like some kinda doormat in a way.

[midori]

Originally posted by monkey00

 

Do you think being too worrisome or "nice" is annoying?? And i apologize often...is this also to my disadvantage ( in terms of nice guy)??

 

Yes, and yes. If you like her why aren't you making that very very clear? Give her something specific to say "yes" or "no" to. And then take the answer. Dancing around the issue, giving her signals that you're interested but won't make a move unless you know it's safe to do so is cowardly. You like her? Say so! If she doesn't return your feelings then she can say so in a clear fashion, and then you can either shrug your shoulders and get on with being friends while looking elsewhere for romance, or you can take yourself off because being friends is too difficult for you. Either is fair & perfectly understandable.

 

I feel so useless in a way that she feels i cant make my own choices, usually i say "its ok" and clinging to her and haning out w/her friends, WTF am i thinking that makes me seem even more useless...I dont have a bloody car like her ex-bf/cousin/cousin bf to drive her home, theyre around 4-5 years older than her/me.

 

Um, I think I understand what you're saying, and if so then I agree. Sounds like you aren't making your own choices. Sounds like you're comparing yourself to other people using a set of external criteria that has nothing to do with who you are as a person. So what if you don't have a car. Don't you think she hangs out with you because she enjoys your company? And if that's not the reason then why the heck do you want to hang out with her?

 

Do you think distancing myself from her is being kinda pussy of me cause she will be able to tell what my reasons are. We are really close friends, you could say too close, she tells me everything and even showed me all of her album pics yesterday!! the times i tell her about myself or related to, she doesnt show any much of an interest.

 

You know, I have a guy friend who in the last six months or so decided that he was interested in me. He made it clear in little passive ways, suggesting we hang out more, in more intimate settings than our usual meet for a drink or go see a movie. And I'm not interested in dating him -- in part because his passive m.o. is characteristic of his passive, rather defeatist approach to life. Which is a turn-off to me. But regardless of why I'm not interested in him, if he had just said, "hey midori, would you ever be interested in going out on a date?" I would have replied, "wow, thanks, I'm so flattered, but I don't see us that way." And I would have respected him for his honesty. Yep, it takes courage to admit to someone that you're interested in them. By not being forthright you're implicitly saying, "I want this but only if you want this, I don't have enough confidence in myself to take a risk. You need to make it easy for me." If you don't have confidence in yourself, why should she?

 

I've been avoiding this friend of mine for the last few months. He makes me uncomfortable now. I can't come out and say, "look ____ I'm sorry but I'm not interested in dating you, I hope you understand," because he's trying to be subtle and if I call his bluff he'll be embarrassed. On the other hand it's pretty obvious to me that that's his goal, and it makes things awkward between us. So I just avoid him. Which isn't the nicest thing but I'm busy and haven't got time for someone else's insecure nonsense.

[subtitled]

yeh, a lack of confidence is not always endearing like people might think. Sometimes it really is a turn off.

 

I think also, all the caring etc. like offering your jacket, is fine... but for later. When you're friends with someone, i would say you offer your jacket only if the situation is dire - like it's pissing with rain. I would say you would normally reserve continuous consideration to if you were going out... and if you're not yet, it probably seems a bit awkward or over-concern, and that does make people feel weird sometimes.

 

It sounds like you are a nice guy, but you should reserve your niceness for a girl who feels the same way for you, and loves you for it. This girl respects you, but feels a bit disconcerted when you are over-concerned for her.

 

I guess just yes, say it to her straight...it's going to be tough, and it sounds like you might not get a positive reciprocation, but you'll feel relieved.

 

good luck

[HokeyReligions]

Keep the nice, ditch the doormat attitude. There is a good mix. Being considerate is part of being nice -- keep being considerate of others, but if you like someone, let them know and if they are not interested you can move on -- you don't have to wait around for them to wipe their feet on you. You have to think about your feelings too. Eventually you will find people who appreciate your considerate nature and will respond to you as more than a doormat to use and feel sorry for. You can be assertive too without losing the 'nice' part.

[midori]

I think it's deceptive to think of it as a nice vs. mean paradigm. It's about owning what you feel, being honest about it, and accepting it when the other person doesn't feel the same. We all have faced rejection. It's not going to kill you.

 

A nice guy is honest, considerate and trustworthy. Those qualities have nothing to do with clinging, waiting for signals, being overly solicitous to the point where the recipient is embarrassed, or sulking because one's miniscule advance appeared to have been rejected.

 

You know what I would do: ask her for a minute of her time after class. Say to her, "you know what (name) it's probably become rather obvious that I really like you. I was wondering if you'd let me take you out to dinner this weekend. If you'd rather leave things as they are, with us just being friends, that's totally cool and I'll understand. But I had to ask." The worst thing she'll say is, "oh thanks, that's so sweet, but I think we're better off as friends." Then you'll know where you stand and you can act accordingly.

 

Of course you never know -- she could say yes!

[monkey00]

hmm..thanks again everyone for your replies

 

Although since i already know that she doesnt like me more than a friend based on body language, wont it be pretty pointless to say it out loud in the open air if i already know how she feels about me?

 

I mean telling her straight out wont change anything between us. If she doesnt feel for me teh way i do for her, then there's really nothing that i can do to change that. the only thing i can do right now is move on with my wins and losses.

 

I suppose i should be saying "no" when she asks a favor of me every now and then, but i dont know if i should do that...it seems kinda mean/cruel on my half.

 

And next time if she asks me if i wanna hang out with her+friends should i say "sure" or "nah im busy"?? I wont annoy her anymore with borrowing her my jacket, etc. I just wont ask at all.

[midori]

Originally posted by monkey00

hmm..thanks again everyone for your replies

 

Although since i already know that she doesnt like me more than a friend based on body language, wont it be pretty pointless to say it out loud in the open air if i already know how she feels about me?

 

If you are convinced that she doesn't want to date you -- and you may well be right -- then you need to fully accept it.

 

the only thing i can do right now is move on with my wins and losses.

 

Exactly.

 

I suppose i should be saying "no" when she asks a favor of me every now and then, but i dont know if i should do that...it seems kinda mean/cruel on my half.

 

Now be honest with yourself: is that because you still harbor hope that maybe she'll come around? Easier to believe if you haven't been direct with her and received a direct answer. And if you keep on being wonderful to her, maybe your chances will improve ...?

 

And next time if she asks me if i wanna hang out with her+friends should i say "sure" or "nah im busy"?? I wont annoy her anymore with borrowing her my jacket, etc. I just wont ask at all.

 

The fact that you feel the need to plan this in advance suggests that you are not able to be natural with her; you feel the need to script your encounters with her. Why is that? What message are you so keen to convey to her but cannot actually say? If, as you feel, she doesn't see you as anything other than a friend, then she's probably not even alert to the significance of minute details of your interaction. You're so concerned with what doing this or that will signal to her, but she's not looking for any signals from you.

 

If you have decided that she's not intersted in you and thus there is no point in asking her out, then you need to figure out whether you are able to actually be her friend. Right now it sounds like you can't. Right now it sounds like you are thinking about your interactions with her way too much, putting too much significance on your friendship with her, to the point where you're not behaving in a relaxed and friendly way. Your nervous approach will continue to make you feel awkward and foolish, and will probably make her feel uncomfortable too.

 

I'm not suggesting that you need to cut her out of your life completely. You don't even need to be overt in backing off. But it does sound like you need to move on, find other outlets. Find some new activities that have nothing to do with her. Find some new friends. Cut down the amount of your free time that is spent in her company. It's not about punishing her, or even making it obvious that you're not as available to her as you used to be. Friendships naturally ebb and flow; sometimes you spend lots of time together, then one or the other gets busy or distracted with something and you see less of each other. C'est la vie.

 

If you haven't got the courage to speak up about how you feel about her, then it sounds like you need to back off quite a bit and find other things to focus on. You won't be doing yourself or her any favors by continuing to obsess over how she'll react to you if you do a, b, or c.

[monkey00]

Originally posted by midori

 

Now be honest with yourself: is that because you still harbor hope that maybe she'll come around? Easier to believe if you haven't been direct with her and received a direct answer. And if you keep on being wonderful to her, maybe your chances will improve ...?

 

 

Yes thats what i used to believe. By keeping my availability and being wonderful to her, i thought that i would receive somethign in return...but aye i did. Ive known her for a little over 2 months...and look where itgot me, ive gone to her house, met her family, hung out with her friends....but for me thats not enough, it just makes me feel like the underdog. in a way that joining her side and trying to be accepted by her "side" you know what i mean right?? well i cant put the blame on anyone but me, i dont have a lot of friends and the ones i have arent really that great. I'm still loooking for a job and having a really hard time at it. within the next few weeks im aiming to get my driver's permit + license, which should keep my schedule well occupied.

 

Look im 19, she's 20. The friends she has are her cousin's friends which is around the age group of 25. In a way, i feel like my maturity/experience/knowledge level cannot compare to theirs...they all have their own lives to run, work..etc. And because of this i feel like im the kid. whenever we hang out or whatever i feel like the underdog/kid who just sticks around them. I had my reasons for chilling with her, but i didnt get what i expected...now im in a loss for words and having invested time in being a nice guy friend to her. YES i have won a good friend in the end and at the same time i feel so useless. I'm hindering her from having fun and freedom at times, cause i know there are times where she looks out for me...and for that i will always be grateful..but im the GUY here!! I want to look out for her and protect her, but she's never given me the chance. But I think she thinks she owes it to me for all the times ive been there helping her with school. She finds me a good person to have discussions with but NOT someone she can confide in. as in telling me of her emotional/mental stress problems...but i can understand her. I mean i would do the same probably...dont wanna bug the other about their problems which is justbeing negative. I wont act awkward/jerkful or anything like that, its just too mean to do to such a good person. I will cont to be there for her, and if im not able to, ill just let her know.

 

ACK, sorry i said too much, i practically broke down our relationship to its main core.

 

anyway as my bro said, "just be yourself" AYE i will. But ill keep myself occupied with other activities and cont' on with my life.

[jenny]

i don't think the 'nice' part is your problem, honestly. i'm a bit more concerned about this:

 

I was sleepy, bored, depressed, and drank about 5 beers. ahh it felt so good i was buzzed for about 2 hours. I asked if there was anyone in school she liked, she nodded with a "no" i asked why , nodded with a "no". since i was sleepy and buzzed i went over to my friend and leaned my head toward her, touched my hand with hers for 2 seconds but she moved it...u know what this means. Throughout the whole night she asked if i was ok i said yeah.

 

i can't speak for all women, but i have to say i would be considerably turned off by this. bored often equals boring.

 

you do sound like a pretty nice guy, but it would be pretty hard to get busy with a guy who did not make the effort to have fun on a group date i invited him to, and then would not express himself about why he was upset.

 

just a thought, anyway...

[amerikajin]

Well...the ladies don't lie, dude.

 

You're being waaaay to passive. Your approach is basically saying "I'm begging you! Please! Please! Like me! I'll do ANYTHING to get your approval. Just like me."

 

Bad sign #1: chicks see you as "needy"

 

Dude, that doesn't sell. Big turn off. Ladies like men who don't need approval from anyone.

 

Another thing...don't ever put your arm around a lady unless she's initiated the contact first. Don't even touch her til then.

 

Bad sign #2: chicks see you as a "control freak"

 

Another observation...you got the wrong idea about you and your "friend". You're waiting around, hoping this friendship might turn into something, giving her subtle clues here and there. She knows exactly what's up, even if you don't think she does. You simply went out with her for a group night of fun but in your mind you turned it into something entirely different. You just gotta stop playing games and get down to it, and give yourself some space when you're courting a woman. Don't let her get to see or know too much of you. It doesn't mean be an a-hole - never be an a-hole. But you're right: you don't want to be an @sslicker either.

 

Don't take this post to heart. Not really trying to be personal, just giving you the low-down. I just tend to be a little blunt.

[moimeme]

You just gotta stop playing games and get down to it, and give yourself some space when you're courting a woman. Don't let her get to see or know too much of you.

 

These seem to be rather incongruous.

 

Isn't the goal of dating to get to know one another? I fail to see the point of spending time with a person if it's not to find out who the person is and what they're about - at least if the whole idea is to aim for a relationship. Or is dating about trying to create enough good feelings and bonding together that, when people's inner selves are finally revealed, they'll stick together anyway?

 

Really, I don't get it. If you don't want to find someone who accepts you as fully revealed, what are you after? I'm very much against bait-and-switch and pretending to be what one is not in order to lure someone. That person will eventually figure out you're not the image you've projected and that will be a disappointment.

 

I agree that people who are needy, clingy, and overly dependent on others for their esteem need to work on themselves, but I don't agree they should pretend to be something they are not. When the work is done and they feel they are able to be more independent, they then will act more independently. Until then, I think, they should be honest about who they are. It is far sadder to pretend one is something one isn't than to own the weaknesses/flaws and forge onward to dealing with them.

[yes]

i think one way people can get over their clinginess (or as a matter of fact any trait they're trying to reduce) is to pretend like they don't have it. for example, if one's shy, going out there and pretending to not be shy may very well help the person overcome the shyness - because s/he will see that being less shy isn't scary and in fact results in more fun.

 

so it's not playing games - it's simply being the person you wanna be. if I tell myself - OK, i have no more than one night free for guy X this week, that'll make me do other things on the other nights, even if i wish i spent every single evening with him. but by pretending, and hence finding other things to do - tada, i've made the first step towards being more leveled at the beginning of an r/s.

 

that's my take,

-yes

[moimeme]

yes -

 

I'm a believer in the 'fake it 'till you make it' school of thought, too - so long as that's what's being done! If it's 'fake it to hide the truth', 'nother story.

[yes]

agreed, moimeme. if somebody's just trying to hide their true face, it'll come out sooner or later anyway.

 

i really like this idea of acting like the person you wanna be ... it's kind of like choosing your part (as if in a play), instead of trying to follow a part handed to you by a sequence of coincidents and influences. and if you're acting like the person you wanna be... you're guaranteed to like yourself!

 

-yes

[monkey00]

Originally posted by yes

i think one way people can get over their clinginess (or as a matter of fact any trait they're trying to reduce) is to pretend like they don't have it. for example, if one's shy, going out there and pretending to not be shy may very well help the person overcome the shyness - because s/he will see that being less shy isn't scary and in fact results in more fun.

 

so it's not playing games - it's simply being the person you wanna be. if I tell myself - OK, i have no more than one night free for guy X this week, that'll make me do other things on the other nights, even if i wish i spent every single evening with him. but by pretending, and hence finding other things to do - tada, i've made the first step towards being more leveled at the beginning of an r/s.

 

that's my take,

-yes

 

That in fact is a great idea, i've never thought about this before...I'm not a shy person anymore, ive grown out of that shell since i hit college. But there other areas of my weaknesses i can enhance if i follow that rule. Thanks YES and Moimeme!

 

Do you guys think i should cont hanging out with her if she asks me to?? I mean if i really have nothing to do that night i should just go anyway. But i fear that if i go, i will inhibit her from being happy/having fun and ruin her freedom. She's basically the host, she invited me out, so she feels its her part to make me feel comfortable or have fun. I would do the same if she hung out with my friends. I dont want her to "worry" or "not have fun" because of my presence there, even though she might feel like she owes it to me since "im such a good friend" as she always tells me. Do you guys really think that i should hang out when she invites me or just make up an excuse for not being able to make it??

[yes]

certainly go, and have fun without her constant assistance. just go talk to other people, have a drink (ONE!), relax. leave her alone, but if comes up to you - just chat with her.

 

by the way, you can also say that you need to talk to her when she has 5 mins. once she says she has the time, let her know that you like her, and that you're wondering if so does she. be ready for her to say No!!! in that case, say - ok, i understand, it's no problem, and go back to the party. if she says yes, say - so shall we go to a movie on Fri?

 

that's my advice...

-yes

[monkey00]

OK yes that sounds good. But i doubt i will have that chance anymore

She saw that i wasnt having a good time, drunk and sleepy. and said sorry i asked you to come out. although near the end, i was having a good time since i was a little drunk. she didnt notice me...cause she was in the bathroom barfing. after she came back out we left. so she didnt get the chance to see me having a fun time. usually thats how i am, when im somewhere new, ill usually take some time to get accustomed/comfortable to my surroundings. when i am, i will usually be more outspoken and try to have fun.

 

I want to apologize to her when i see her in class about that night. I want to tell her "sorry about friday night, cause of me you didnt go have fun with your cousin and friends." Cause most of the night she was sitting next to me, trying to keep me company. But if i tell her, i might just be making her feel even worse about herself!!!!

So i guess i shouldnt say anything at all about friday?...maybe say i had a good time(even though she didnt notice).

[moimeme]

If you are going to mope, be bored, or get drunk, stay home. If your intent in going out is to enjoy the company of the people you're with, then leave it to her to decide if she wants you there or not. You can make big mistakes trying to second-guess others. Take it from one who knows

 

Don't obsess about the last time you were out. She's invited you again, so leave it be.

[amerikajin]

All I'm saying moimeme is that there should be some methodology applied here. He's "hanging out" with his "girl friend" (notice the conspicous space between the words "girl" and the "friend")...and hopes that something becomes of it??? Come on!

 

I'm saying that if he really wants to entice a woman, he has to create a little mystery here. I'm not saying avoid her, and I'm not saying be a mute when you meet somewhere - quite the opposite. I'm saying don't overdo it. You do your talking on the dates and gradually get closer that way. If you talk in the time between, you reveal too much about yourself, and she no longer looks forward to the dates.

 

Frankly, I'm tired of all this politically correct psychobabble we see and hear about "opening your feelings". That's just a load of cr@p. Boys will be boys, girls will be girls, and the last time I checked, girls like boys who know how to be boys.

[moimeme]

If you talk in the time between, you reveal too much about yourself, and she no longer looks forward to the dates.

 

Well now. That's a new one on me. That's not how I operate, but clearly I'm not Everywoman.

 

Frankly, I'm tired of all this politically correct psychobabble we see and hear about "opening your feelings". That's just a load of cr@p. Boys will be boys, girls will be girls, and the last time I checked, girls like boys who know how to be boys.

 

Gosh, but that's loaded! I think we all have different definitions of what constitute 'boyness'

[monkey00]

Originally posted by amerikajin

I'm saying that if he really wants to entice a woman, he has to create a little mystery here. I'm not saying avoid her, and I'm not saying be a mute when you meet somewhere - quite the opposite. I'm saying don't overdo it. You do your talking on the dates and gradually get closer that way. If you talk in the time between, you reveal too much about yourself, and she no longer looks forward to the dates.

 

Thanks ill keep it in mind. But depending when, what, and how you talk creates the kind of relationship you want the both of you to have. Me and her only talk when we see each other in person , either in class or on dates(friend dates). But we never talk on the phone really....i guess it would seem too awkward to start something like that. since i have more interest in her than she does me.

 

moimeme: ill just be normal again when i see her, and i wont talk about the last time we hung out, but just look forward to the next time

[moimeme]

moimeme: ill just be normal again when i see her, and i wont talk about the last time we hung out, but just look forward to the next time

 

Good luck! I hope it goes well

[amerikajin]

I guess we go back to the original issue here, then: you're just being too nice and too passive.

 

I used to do all this pal-ing around from time to time, too, and it got me nowhere. Why? Because I, too, used the "Maybe, perhaps, one day, if hell freezes over, I don't know...maybe we could perhaps go on a date...whaddya say? Give it a thought, why dontcha."

 

I think the thing to do is to leave no doubt that you're a decisive person who goes after what he wants. At the same time, you don't want her to think that you're needy or clingy. It's a balancing act. There should be no mistake about the fact that you're at least interested in her...but to use a baseball analogy, don't go for the grand slam homerun if there aren't any runners on base. Get a few hits first.

[monkey00]

Originally posted by amerikajin

I guess we go back to the original issue here, then: you're just being too nice and too passive.

 

I used to do all this pal-ing around from time to time, too, and it got me nowhere. Why? Because I, too, used the "Maybe, perhaps, one day, if hell freezes over, I don't know...maybe we could perhaps go on a date...whaddya say? Give it a thought, why dontcha."

 

I think the thing to do is to leave no doubt that you're a decisive person who goes after what he wants. At the same time, you don't want her to think that you're needy or clingy. It's a balancing act. There should be no mistake about the fact that you're at least interested in her...but to use a baseball analogy, don't go for the grand slam homerun if there aren't any runners on base. Get a few hits first.

 

yep amerikajin im plannning on doing things a little differently from now on...I hope it works out.

 

You know there was a place on the web where it says you dont necessarily have to be a jerk to get the girls. The strategy it said was to - from top priority to the least - was to place YOURSELF above all else, First is YOU, family, friends, her. that's what it said...but i dont necessarily think it works charms. I've done something similar in the past, it got me nowhere. maybe i did something wrong in the process..but ill neve rknow

[amerikajin]

It's a hard thing to master for those of us who don't have the natural talent, but you can at the very least see some improvement if you employ the right technique. The thing you have to realize is that you're not always going to get the girl your interested in - she has to have some natural interest in you. But over time, you begin to recognize cues, and you begin to see who's interested in you and who isn't. Think of dating as a kind of selling...you're selling yourself. You scope out the most likely customers by looking for their buying signals, and then you make your pitch. Don't waste time with window shoppers. At the same time, don't put too much pressure on the buyer, because ultimately, the product will sell itself.