Nice guys dont finish jack squat!!...sigh anyone can help me?

[meanon]

Think of dating as a kind of selling...you're selling yourself. You scope out the most likely customers by looking for their buying signals, and then you make your pitch. Don't waste time with window shoppers. At the same time, don't put too much pressure on the buyer, because ultimately, the product will sell itself.

 

I think this is an exceptionally depressing way of looking at relationships. I'm sure it is true for some but there is literally no humanity in this sentiment. people are not products they have emotions.

[amerikajin]

Don't hate the player, hate the game. I didn't make the rules.

 

You know what burns me? I was a nice guy - a really nice guy - to women when I was younger. I had a nice personality, and I was a gentleman, and I paid for dinners, and I bought roses, and I paid attention to what women were saying, and I was a good listener, and I tried to be sensitive....I did all that. And you know where the nice guy act got me? NOWHERE! I watched as these babes strolled around with jailbirds from the street or spoiled a-holes. After a while, it finally dawned on me...being nice has NOTHING to do with attraction.

 

Now, don't get me wrong. I realize that as women mature, they usually outgrow the need to rebel against the order and they eventually stop dating rejects. But even so, they still have an aversion to really nice people for fear that they might become too nice, or too clingy.

 

And this business about giving guys the guilt trip about sleeping around or dating several women at the same time...what hypocrisy! Eventually it sank in my head that they do it just as much - if not more than guys. They don't give it a second thought.

 

You can sit here and talk about "feelings" and "sensitivity", but you'll just keep getting your heart trampled on if you operate that way. Bottom line is you have to guard yourself. 'Tis better to be respected than liked. In general, yeah, be a decent, honest guy. But remember, you gotta be a hardass sometimes, and maybe that's not very nice, but as the title of the thread points out...NICE GUYS DON'T FINISH JACK SQUAT!

[moimeme]

And the myth persists. Tell me, would you really have wanted any of the women who wanted 'jailbirds from the street or spoiled a-holes'? Sure, there are a lot of women - even really beautiful ones that catch everyone's eye - who will settle for a 'jailbird or a-hole'. Why would you even want a person who wants someone so much different from you? What you want, I should think, is the person wise enough to appreciate exactly who you are - anything less isn't good enough.

 

There are a lot of people who aren't particular. They will for sure go after the superficial qualities, the actors, the poseurs. Are these the stuff of happy relationships? Tell me how many of the women you missed out on went on to joyful lives with their jailbirds and a-holes? More than that, has your new philosophy won you the woman of your dreams?

 

Yes, a 'nice' guy may take longer to find his ideal mate; that's because the pool of available mates shrinks dramatically the higher one's standards are raised. Maybe not nearly enough women treasure 'nice' guys - but those of us who do will love our 'nice' guys deeply and passionately. If that's not worth waiting for, well then sure - wear attitudes and behaviours that aren't genuine or authentic. Problem is, if people fall for you thinking what they see reflects the genuine you and they eventually discover it does not, you're still back at square one.

[meanon]

amerikajin

Don't hate the player, hate the game

 

I don't hate anyone - I don't know this game. You speak from your experience, mine is different. I hope you get over your trampled heart.

[moimeme]

Let me add a bit more:

 

If someone isn't smart enough or wise enough to appreciate you for who you are, then that person doesn't deserve you.

 

Even secure people fall prey to the temptation to mold themselves to suit others. Not that one oughtn't make some changes - everyone's got self-improvement projects, after all, and sometimes it's a good idea to complete one if it's needed to go forward with a relationship but, on the whole, people sometimes try to make themselves into something else to suit another's tastes rather than find the person who will want the real them. It's just not worth it.

 

Better not to sacrifice one's true self as a trade-off for having any somebody. In the end, it'll prove to be a mistake.

[amerikajin]

Look, the nice guy act didn't work with me, and it's not working with our friend here. So he needs a new approach.

 

I don't mean he should project himself to be some bitter jerk - not at all saying that. Bitter is no more successful than being nice.

 

The only thing I'm saying is that you can be too nice. In the end, I'm saying pick the zone in which you're comfortable and stay there, and don't deviate from it - for anybody. Don't wax poetic or throw your jacket over a puddle in the hopes that some woman's going to dig it - doesn't work. She either digs the guy for who he is, or she doesn't.

 

I really don't like playing games either, moimeme. But there is a skill and an art to dating, and with every skill, there must be technique in our approach. The technique requires that one exercise some level of self control. Abandon self control, and you lose your edge. The natural urge for "nice guys" is to overwhelm a girl with niceness...and I'm telling him it won't work. You can write poems, haiku, compose beautiful songs, ruin your most expensive jackets by throwing them over puddles, buy her flowers, and God knows what else...it ain't gonna work if she doesn't dig the dude first. That's the key here. She's got to dig the guy, and he has to be able to recognize it.

 

There's nothing really too controversial about what I've written. Just stating the obvious. But I refuse to accept any longer this politically correct garbage about how a man has to communicate feelings and give out his heart and all this other 1990s Hollywood bullsh*t. A man has to be a man - period. If a man's comfortable being who he is, then the right women will notice. Avoid all who don't. That's all I'm saying.

 

And I'm sorry, you do have to think of it like running a business. Love doesn't come until much later. You gotta earn love, babe.

[monkey00]

Originally posted by moimeme

Even secure people fall prey to the temptation to mold themselves to suit others. Not that one oughtn't make some changes - everyone's got self-improvement projects, after all, and sometimes it's a good idea to complete one if it's needed to go forward with a relationship but, on the whole, people sometimes try to make themselves into something else to suit another's tastes rather than find the person who will want the real them. It's just not worth it.

 

Better not to sacrifice one's true self as a trade-off for having any somebody. In the end, it'll prove to be a mistake.

 

Ive read somewhere on the web about that happening...where the nice guys ultimately fall prey to reform and acting like jerks. This won't happen automatically, it will happen through experiences of "nice guy finishes nothing with girls". They wil want to "burn" women as how they were "burned" when they were the nice guys. it almost becomes a revenge kind of plot against women, which of course...is the Player game. one night stands and etc, we play with them how they played with our nice guy hearts.

 

You know one of my friends from HS always had the belief that i am mean to girls...I thought....he doesnt know jack squat about me, since he conts' to think that of me.

After this experience and all the discussions i had here at loveshack, i realize that being mean isnt as bad as being overall too nice...it just depends what relationship you want to create...

[BlockHead]

monkey00

She saw that i wasnt having a good time, drunk and sleepy.

Don’t overdo it. Exactly how many women think drunkenness is romantic?

amerikajin

I'm saying that if he really wants to entice a woman, he has to create a little mystery here. I'm not saying avoid her, and I'm not saying be a mute when you meet somewhere - quite the opposite. I'm saying don't overdo it. You do your talking on the dates and gradually get closer that way.

The art of seduction. Some people seem to be born with it while the rest of us have to work at it.

 

monkey00

You might want to learn more about psychology because too many girls like to play mind games. If you understand how the games are played, you can disarm them. I think that will save you some pain and mental anguish.

If you were a real hard-ass, you could use psychology to manipulate some of the women. Personally, I think that any woman who must be coerced is not worth the effort.

amerikajin

Think of dating as a kind of selling...you're selling yourself.

I feel like a piece of meat. Why is our dignity always the first thing to go?

amerikajin

Frankly, I'm tired of all this politically correct psychobabble we see and hear about "opening your feelings". That's just a load of cr@p. Boys will be boys, girls will be girls, and the last time I checked, girls like boys who know how to be boys.

Amen brother!

[monkey00]

Originally posted by BlockHead

I feel like a piece of meat. Why is our dignity always the first thing to go?

 

haha blockhead - When we go out there with the ones we fancy, we always put ourselves on the line...the warfront has its victories and failures...only us guys can make it happen....and if we go home armless or legless...it means we've already lost our dignity..and tomorrow is another day!! Amen! (im atheist, but who cares)

 

Just now she called me...well its obvious why. To tell me the dimensions for the scan of her pic so i can print it out for her project...her comp at home is little screwy with her. then "tahnk you very much"

Yea anyway she said "sorry i got drunk, my feet were hurting and you ddint have a good time." I said no way i had a good time, she said "u sure?" i said yea....then ok talk to you tomorrow. HAHA she didnt know i was drunk that night when we talked on the phone, i said really?? i said iwas a little drunk. You know after the phone call...it makes me wonder if i should still tell her how i feel...i think she knows i like her, i stare at her when she's not looking at me, then asks me whats wrong? i mean duh...if a girl did that to me its pretty obvious.

 

I hope i can try to change things a bit in this relationship and do things differently...but it will be a big step for me to attempt. When someone's already gotten a perception/impression of what kind of person you are when they get to know you...its hard to change that person's image of you...Only time will tell...probably a few years w/o you guys seeing each other will you actually notice a difference..

[amerikajin]

>>>Amen brother!<<<

 

Hey, I just KNEW we could agree on something

[moimeme]

I'm still waiting for one of you master strategists to tell the tale of how this amazing method of yours won you the girl of your dreams.....

[BlockHead]

monkey00

i realize that being mean isnt as bad as being overall too nice.

Try to be bold, not mean.

moimeme

I'm still waiting for one of you master strategists to tell the tale of how this amazing method of yours won you the girl of your dreams.....

My methods are still being refined. In my experience, a person will gain nothing by being kind and polite.

 

Thinking back, I was able to seduce a girl by displaying leadership skills in a class. When everybody split up into groups, everybody in my group was timid so I took charge. When it was time for the debating, I did all of the talking. I acted like I knew what I was doing, and the people around me seemed to respect that. One of the girls really liked the display, and she showed interest in me. Unfortunately, I had so many classes that I didn’t have time for her.

 

Being a nice guy never worked. I either become a “friend,” I get ignored, or I get played.

 

moimeme

Do you consider yourself average?

I think you are a one-percenter if not less.

 

monkey00

I recommend that you try reading some psychology books “Transactional Analysis.” Try focusing on games and pastimes.

 

 

Maybe moimeme is right. We are strategists in the battle of the sexes. The men must abide by the Geneva conventions as dictated by the women, and do things correctly. The women on the other hand, play by their own rules. Maybe bending the rules is the best thing that we men can do.

[moimeme]

I was able to seduce a girl by displaying leadership skills in a class

 

Ah. Here I thought we were talking about developing real, lasting relationships, not luring people into bed.

What was I thinking?

 

moimeme

Do you consider yourself average?

I think you are a one-percenter if not less.

 

Huh? Average how? What do you mean a one-percenter?

[midori]

Originally posted by BlockHead

Maybe moimeme is right. We are strategists in the battle of the sexes. The men must abide by the Geneva conventions as dictated by the women, and do things correctly. The women on the other hand, play by their own rules. Maybe bending the rules is the best thing that we men can do.

 

Maybe I'm not following but I think that this is ALL rubbish. I don't think it's a Game for which one must Strategize. Nor do I think it's a therapy session in which All Must Be Exposed if it's to be considered Real.

 

I agree with amerikajin that guys are not as prone to expressing their inner thoughts, etc. I don't expect a guy to be able to articulate himself in the same way that I do, or to access his emotional life in the same way that I do. I respect the differences between men and women; although I think that there are no absolute differences between them. There's a continuum of "emotional self-awareness" and the majority of men might be a bit closer to one end, while the majority of women are nearer the other.

 

I do think that a successful guy has got to have A BIT of a clue about what's going on between his head and his heart. Otherwise he's kidding himself, and he's certainly not going to be able to be forthright with the woman he's dating. I think that being honest with yourself and with others does take courage, and I do respect men who are able to do that. That doesn't mean they have to tell me every time they see something beautiful that reminds them of the warm feeling they had when they were five and got their first puppy.

 

I don't think monkey00's problem lies in the "I'm a nice guy who finishes last" paradigm. I think it would be more accurately described as "I'm an insecure guy who doesn't have the guts to admit to the girl I like that I like her, so instead I try to convey that to her by being Super Nice in a way that's actually artificial because I'm not just doing it out of the goodness of my heart but with the hope that she'll think I'm Great and then she'll Fall in Love with me too and I won't have had to put my pride on the line."

 

Who's playing the game?

 

I agree that going all out with no cue that the object of your affection is receptive is foolish. But what is wrong with being straightforward and saying, "hey, I think you're great and I'd love to go out with you sometime?" And then carry on with your life. If she says yes, great! If she declines, her loss, and you move on to find someone else. I don't think that level of straightforwardness is too much to ask of any guy (or girl). It's not about exposing your inner depths immediately. It's about being honest about what your real agenda is in the interactions you have with the other person.

 

I think guys do themselves no favor at all when they speculate about "nice guys finishing last," and that women need to be tricked into thinking that a guy is great. Do you think you're all right? Then why wouldn't she? If you're just moderately observant, you can tell if the person you're interested in is receptive. Receptive -- I didn't say that they're supposed to be transparent, so that you'll know if it's OK to touch her hand right now, or if you should call tomorrow night or wait a few days longer. But do they constantly blow you off, not return calls, and make excuses about why they can't get together? Guess what - they're probably not interested. And it's not necessarily because you're "too nice." They're just not interested! So what? Find someone else!!!

 

Sheesh. These theories are nuts. It's like women who worry that if they have sex too soon the guy won't respect them. Obviously you don't want to run around sleeping with every guy you date. But clinging to a rigid one-size-fits-all set of rules and expectations isn't going to lead to very satisfying interactions.

 

I think people just need to be self-aware enough to be honest with themselves and others about what they want. And confident enough in themselves to know that they are worthy of what they want. They might not get it, but they are worthy of it. And if they don't get what they want, they should look elsewhere instead of beating themselves up over why it didn't work out this time. Or why Women (the entire gender!) don't like them.

 

A final point, for those "nice guys" out there who have been shot down time and again, and feel they are justified for saying that nice guys finish last. Do you keep going for the same sort of woman, over and over? Is it possible that you keep targeting women who have qualities which you find desirable but for which you are actually unsuited? If you're a shy, retiring sort who is attracted to vivacious women -- and then on top of it you're too lacking in confidence to pursue the vivacious women directly -- it shouldn't be that surprising that you're not having much success. Instead of chalking your defeats up to external, abstract theories, why not say to yourself, "why do I keep pursuing women who don't want to date me? What do these women have in common (besides the fact that they rejected me)? How am I not aligned with what I'm going after?"

[moimeme]

Maybe moimeme is right. We are strategists in the battle of the sexes

 

WHAT? Woah, there. Hold the phone. I said nothing of the sort - don't be hanging that foolishness on me.

I said you should NOT be a 'strategist'. I've been saying what Midori said - BE YOURSELF. No plots. No plans. No strategies. Be who you are and wait until the woman who appreciates that comes along.

 

It sounds to me as though the men who are so into this 'strategy' business are about getting ANY woman rather than about getting the woman that best suits them.

 

I say again, you can use any and every trick you want to lure someone into your trap, but once they find out they've been fooled, you'll lose them anyway. I think people labour under the impression that if they can just get a woman close enough to know them, they'll have to love them. Not so. You absolutely need to look for only the women who will appreciate you - even if that takes a long time. The rest is just a waste of your time.

[BlockHead]

moimeme

Here I thought we were talking about developing real, lasting relationships, not luring people into bed.

Attract is a better word. No, I did not sleep with her. I didn’t have enough time. I averaged 3-4 hours of sleep every night that semester.

midori

It's not about exposing your inner depths immediately. It's about being honest about what your real agenda is in the interactions you have with the other person.

Emotional intimacy comes in later. That won’t happen if there is no opportunity for it. Being bold will open doors and create opportunities. Being timid will have the opposite effect.

 

Being bold doesn’t mean that he has to break the law, or intimidate people. Like a good charlatan, he should create the image that he is a confident and dependable guy that can stand up for himself and take charge.

 

There are too many people who have problems with emotional intimacy, and they will resort to games. Those games are a waste of time and money, and they are source of frustration. I recommended that monkey00 learn to disarm them for those reasons. He could fight back, but that would get him nowhere.

moimeme

I said you should NOT be a 'strategist'. I've been saying what Midori said - BE YOURSELF. No plots. No plans. No strategies. Be who you are and wait until the woman who appreciates that comes along.

I think it is better to be myself once I get past the games and the hoopla.

moimeme

You absolutely need to look for only the women who will appreciate you - even if that takes a long time.

Easy for you to say. I don’t expect her to fall into my lap, and yes, I can wait for a long time. The problem is that I am not getting any younger, and my resources are limited. I think bait will speed things up.

moimeme

It sounds to me as though the men who are so into this 'strategy' business are about getting ANY woman rather than about getting the woman that best suits them.

Maybe the whole process is like running through a mine field. Not a good idea if you go into it blindly. I guess the strategy is in knowing where the trouble spots are, and how to get around them. By knowing that, I think monkey00 can save himself a lot of trouble.

[midori]

Originally posted by BlockHead

Emotional intimacy comes in later. That wonât happen if there is no opportunity for it. Being bold will open doors and create opportunities. Being timid will have the opposite effect.

 

Being bold doesnât mean that he has to break the law, or intimidate people. Like a good charlatan, he should create the image that he is a confident and dependable guy that can stand up for himself and take charge.

 

 

That's what I've been saying from the start! Except that he shouldn't have to be a charlatan to convey the image of confidence and dependability. I think that's what moimeme has been saying too.

 

It's you guys who have brought in the game and business analogies. If you want to stick with that, how well do you think a salesman is going to do if he sells a fake product, one that doesn't follow through on the salespitch's promises?

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I still read in things like this:

 

There are too many people who have problems with emotional intimacy, and they will resort to games. Those games are a waste of time and money, and they are source of frustration. I recommended that monkey00 learn to disarm them for those reasons. He could fight back, but that would get him nowhere.

 

a bit of paranoia ("the women are armed in ways you can't imagine -- and they play games. You have to disarm them!"). I would advise instead: if you run into a woman who seems to expect you to jump through hoops, with whom you are unable to be even remotely natural, even after accounting for a bit of natural nervousness, then cut bait and fish elsewhere. And if you are the one who isn't being honest about what he wants, then you're not going to get very far.

 

A guy who pretends to just be a very accommodating friend but who really wants to be a boyfriend might think he's flying under the radar, but chances are the girl in question is on to him. And her irritation and/or awkwardness is probably growing.

[monkey00]

Originally posted by midori

 

I don't think monkey00's problem lies in the "I'm a nice guy who finishes last" paradigm. I think it would be more accurately described as "I'm an insecure guy who doesn't have the guts to admit to the girl I like that I like her, so instead I try to convey that to her by being Super Nice in a way that's actually artificial because I'm not just doing it out of the goodness of my heart but with the hope that she'll think I'm Great and then she'll Fall in Love with me too and I won't have had to put my pride on the line."

 

 

Yes midori..i think you may have just hit the spot, i didnt think about my actions till you just perfectly summarized it!

 

originally posted by midori

A guy who pretends to just be a very accommodating friend but who really wants to be a boyfriend might think he's flying under the radar, but chances are the girl in question is on to him. And her irritation and/or awkwardness is probably growing.

 

um..its possible they grow aware of your reasons, thats why she sees through me and keeps telling me im such a good friend, to let me know where my place is.

 

 

Anyway!!! today i had class with her and i didnt notice until she saw me, i was a changed man..some bit...yea she asked "are you ok? you look sad" i said nah im fine. who knows may i am sad somewhat today?

anyway me and her were in the library together when she saw one of her friends, asked if she wanted to come with us to lunch. her friend said, "no thanks i dont wanna be in the way of you two." Then my friend said "nooo we're just friends, right (my name)?" then i said "yea" so that was definitely making sure i didnt misunderstand our relationship. it's weird how people that see us walking together usually think that we're a couple...it's true!! but sad in the fact that we're not. well how often are a guy and girl going to hang out unless theyre A. a couple or B. really close friends

 

Anyway im instinctively acting somewhat different today, im not as talkative as i normally am. and im starting to act like normal again...as if i had no feelings for her. I dont even have to think of my actions before i act, i go about to do my own things today. i'm glad in a way, but she probably suspects , oh well. you could say im about 1/2 as nice today, not being mean but asking occasionally if she needs help. so yea...i think this might be getting to a good start to something...

 

Who knows, maybe she'll miss my support and company and come around to liking me when she misses me. but im not thinking about that. only time will tell....thanks for all your reply guys!! you've all been really helpful here @ loveshack, i would never have thought that this post would've become 3 pages long!!

 

hmm..well my opinion of all this is that a guy doesnt necessarily have to act cocky or jerkful in front of girls to get them....probably just mind about your own business and do your own thing, being mysterious in a kind of way by luring them like a hook. I think that was what interested her in getting to know me and asking questions. even though it was at the end of the semester!! all that time we had class!! before the summer. But not every girl is going to be interested in getting to know you through this method, there are times where you still have to make the effort to greet them or talk to them....(those being the girls that aren't really social or shy)

 

It's weird how she's the only girl i actually really talk to in college, with real discussions talking about this and that. And i'm the only guy she talks to in college with real discussions also. she knows lots of people in the college but doesnt make an effort to know them, i wonder why. i think she's into intellectual guys and I'm into intellectual girls...and there's not a lot of intellectual people in the college..i think that answers my question.

[midori]

Originally posted by monkey00

um..its possible they grow aware of your reasons, thats why she sees through me and keeps telling me im such a good friend, to let me know where my place is.

 

Definitely possible. But you'll never know unless you ask her outright instead of waiting and watching for signs from her.

 

Then my friend said "nooo we're just friends, right (my name)?" then i said "yea" so that was definitely making sure i didnt misunderstand our relationship.

 

...Who knows, maybe she'll miss my support and company and come around to liking me when she misses me. but im not thinking about that.

 

You're not being honest. Your interpretation of her meaning is certainly possible, but it's also possible that she was trying to get you to acknowledge that there's something more between you two. But you're never going to know because you're not speaking up honestly, instead just playing along with the "friend" thing and not admitting that you want more.

 

AND you're hoping that your passive tactic might just yield you a good result -- that she'll miss you and "come around to liking" you.

 

Good luck. I'm sorry but I don't think your chances are good. But you've got to handle it as you think best.

[monkey00]

Originally posted by midori

 

you're not being honest. Your interpretation of her meaning is certainly possible, but it's also possible that she was trying to get you to acknowledge that there's something more between you two. But you're never going to know because you're not speaking up honestly, instead just playing along with the "friend" thing and not admitting that you want more.

 

 

hm....i never thought about it like that before...i guess im just not thinking of the possibilities at hand. When the time is right and we're together, ill let her know how i feel. altho i still think she doesnt llike me. she hasnt sent me any signals, and she's never asked me tons of questions about me like i have about her to show interest, dont forget all those times she said she was called and i offered her my jacket and said no, one time someone claled my cell and she asked who it was. well..she did pick lint/thread off of my jacket today...first time. but all this doesnt mean anything!! yea yea ill finally suck up my guts and tell her when we're alone...ill let you guys know how goes my dignity. although in a way i somewhat fear it'll ruin our friendship, and things wont be normal anymore like it usually is. but no fear ill tell her!!

 

if someone fancy's you or not its hard as hell to tell nowadays, hard as a rock!

[BlockHead]

“nooo we're just friends, right (my name)?”

Sit boy…. Stay…. Speak…. Roll over.... Good boy....

 

Maybe you should confront her. Tell her you want more than just a friendship. If she refuses, cut the leash and move on.

 

This “friendship” could be a game of stick and carrot. Every time you reach for the carrot, you get beat with the stick. "See how obedient he is because I am such a strong and pure woman."

 

I was a sucker once, and I will never let that happen again.

[monkey00]

Originally posted by BlockHead

Sit boy…. Stay…. Speak…. Roll over.... Good boy....

 

Maybe you should confront her. Tell her you want more than just a friendship. If she refuses, cut the leash and move on.

 

This “friendship” could be a game of stick and carrot. Every time you reach for the carrot, you get beat with the stick. "See how obedient he is because I am such a strong and pure woman."

 

I was a sucker once, and I will never let that happen again.

 

yes...u must always twist thy words of others blockhead..there are some who say men are dogs!! but there's the good and there's the bad.

the good ones are the puppies, but hey, when we're head over heels for someone its hard not to play puppy!

 

so what's your side of the story blockhead?..please tell...

 

ALSO which gives better results...telling HER on the phone or in person about how i feel..?

[moimeme]

Sit boy…. Stay…. Speak…. Roll over.... Good boy....

 

Oh, come ON! Maybe she really wanted him to say 'yes, we're friends, but I'd love to run off with you' and wink. As Midori said, she may have been giving him an opening to indicate he wanted more. Are you bitter or cynical or both? Yeesh!

 

This “friendship” could be a game of stick and carrot. Every time you reach for the carrot, you get beat with the stick. "See how obedient he is because I am such a strong and pure woman."

 

I was a sucker once, and I will never let that happen again.

 

Oh. Don't go painting all women with the same brush. Yes, watch how people treat you; you deserve respect in a relationship but don't think that every woman will take advantage of you. Some will, some won't. We are all different, you know.

 

BTW you never answered my question about me being average and a one-percenter.

[meanon]

I agree that it is not nice guy issue that is the problem here - self reliance, integrity and confidence are also important qualities in a partner. Also while you are doing all this interpreting, planning and moping how are you going to find the time to be fun to be with by enjoying yourself? As to how you tell her I would say speak to her face to face. This honest approach really is the best, however I feel a little hypocritical recommending it as I would never have done it at your age. Thinking back we used a variety of ways to test the other person's level of interest before making declarations most commonly humour (is he flirting or joking?). I really think you should stop agreeing that you are just a friend.

[midori]

Originally posted by monkey00

altho i still think she doesnt llike me. she hasnt sent me any signals,

 

Oh. My. God. What part of "stop waiting for her to give 'signals'" don't you get? Argh!

 

Worst case scenario: You say, "gee Amanda, it's probably pretty obvious that I really like you. You're one of the few intellectual girls I've met on campus, and that's something I really appreciate. And it goes without saying that I think you're pretty hot! Any chance you'd let me take you out on a date sometime?" And she says, "Oh monkey00, I was afraid you were headed in that direction and I'm really sorry but I don't see you that way. I really like being friends."

 

How bad would that be? Then you'd KNOW (instead of guess but hope you're wrong) that she's not interested.