Nice guys come last/ There are no nice guys

[BoredPerson]

Well it must be kinda hard when you are not attracted to anyone and all these guys keep on trying to have sex with you. One of them is nice to you and then instead of just wanting to be your friend you find that all he wants to do is have sex with you.

 

I am sure that is not a good experience for girls but some do take it too far and are overly picky, however I suspect they are in the minority.

 

I saw this happen at a party where one of the drunk idiots was arguing with a pretty girl about why she wouldn't go out with his friend (I assume a friend), She had a distant look on her face and tears in her eyes, anyhow I thought I'd kepp an eye on the situation just incase it got out of hand. ( I am uber efficient with stuff like that I think I just instinctively know how to do a bunch of stuff)

 

Next thing I know they're hugging and he is dry humping her leg so I walked past and made sure she could see me watching her and that I had an eye on things.

 

Then she goes off and does something with who I thought must have been the guy. They might have made out I wasn't sure.

 

She stopped me on my way out of the party and we had a chat about random things. I looked into her eyes and could tell she was pretty drunk but I also thought I got the indication she was happy to be speaking to me.

 

What raced through my head next was that maybe she liked me. Then I realised how horrible of a thought I just had. One minute ago I was concerned she might get raped, the next I'm trying to have sex with her. Sometimes I think men just need to leave women alone and stop putting so much pressure on them.

 

Some consideration for the women in these situations would go a long way. Until you have had a whole bunch of women you are not interested in hitting on you, you do not know what it is like for some of these girls. I do not think it is easy.

 

However, there are a few problems with women.

 

They shoujld not drink so much.

They should have boyfriends so being hit on is not such a big deal, just say " sorry I have a boyfriend".

They need to start making a move on men more often. There is no system in place so it is hard for guys to know when to back off.

[Woggle]

Bros before hos is a term that I did not make up. It has been around for a while and it means that you should never put a female above your friends who have been there for you and in your life longer than any woman has. Bros and hos rhymes and I think that is why that term exists. I am not saying all women are hos but to me it is a good philosophy to live by.

[Thaddeus]

Which means that a man can never fully feel safe in a relationship with a woman?

I didn't say that, I just said that he runs the risk that his lady will take advantage of his vulnerability. (Voice of experience here.) One has to measure the risk vs reward equation and decide for themselves.

[HsMomma]

Bros before hos is a term that I did not make up. It has been around for a while and it means that you should never put a female above your friends who have been there for you and in your life longer than any woman has. Bros and hos rhymes and I think that is why that term exists. I am not saying all women are hos but to me it is a good philosophy to live by.

 

It doesn't matter whether you made it up, Woggle - what a horrible thing to even repeat! I understand the Bro Code & its multiple levels (we women have similar codes among ourselves), but to phrase it that way is just, well, nasty. What would your current SO say if you said that phrase to her?

[Woggle]

It doesn't matter whether you made it up, Woggle - what a horrible thing to even repeat! I understand the Bro Code & its multiple levels (we women have similar codes among ourselves), but to phrase it that way is just, well, nasty. What would your current SO say if you said that phrase to her?

 

I don't see what is so wrong about it. To me my male friends are much more reliable and trustworthy than any woman I have dealt with. I understand the terms used are a little offensive but the idea of never putting a woman before brotherhood is a good thing in my view. There are women in this thread admitting that they get bored of a man that treats them well and that their emotions can shift in an instant so why is this not a good philosophy for a man to live by? I don't know how my wife would feel but what I post on here is not for her to see.

[LucreziaBorgia]

Women want a man who will be nice to them without being a doormat.

 

A lot of women out there go after the bad guys because they like the idea of being the 'one' who can open his heart like a box of maximum security Cracker Jacks and get the prize inside. There is something very ego-stroking about being the one woman who succeeded where others failed.

 

'Nice guys' (doormats) are like an open safe with no security. You can see the prize inside clearly and don't have to work for it, therefore - there isn't as much value to it. Any woman can have a doormat. It takes a real fighter to tame a 'bad boy' and be able to have the bragging rights to do so.

 

Unfortunately, as it is all too often in life once we have the prize in our hands we start looking for the next one to find.

 

The key to keeping a woman is to let her think she has picked the lock to your heart, and hint at what might be inside without ever really letting her have it completely. That is the difference between 'men' and 'nice guys' - 'nice guys' are vulnerable and continue to be so and 'men' always keep a part of themselves hidden away so that it can't be devalued or exploited.

[Thaddeus]

Women want a man who will be nice to them without being a doormat.

 

A lot of women out there go after the bad guys because they like the idea of being the 'one' who can open his heart like a box of maximum security Cracker Jacks and get the prize inside. There is something very ego-stroking about being the one woman who succeeded where others failed.

 

'Nice guys' (doormats) are like an open safe with no security. You can see the prize inside clearly and don't have to work for it, therefore - there isn't as much value to it. Any woman can have a doormat. It takes a real fighter to tame a 'bad boy' and be able to have the bragging rights to do so.

 

Unfortunately, as it is all too often in life once we have the prize in our hands we start looking for the next one to find.

 

The key to keeping a woman is to let her think she has picked the lock to your heart, and hint at what might be inside without ever really letting her have it completely. That is the difference between 'men' and 'nice guys' - 'nice guys' are vulnerable and continue to be so and 'men' always keep a part of themselves hidden away so that it can't be devalued or exploited.

Probably the best post ever about this attraction to "bad boys." Props to you, LB.

 

For the record, I worked in the prison system for a while. You want a "bad boy"? Hang out by the exit door on release days.

[Woggle]

This shows that women never truly love a man. It is all about her ego and having the power to attract even the most unattainable man. Once she has him she loses interest. It is not about love but about ego stroking and an emotional high. This is why many men won't commit.

[carhill]

That is the difference between 'men' and 'nice guys' - 'nice guys' are vulnerable and continue to be so and 'men' always keep a part of themselves hidden away so that it can't be devalued or exploited.

 

And I gotta tell you with all sincere honesty that life is too short and important to engage in that stupid game, in my considered opinion. That said, I'm happy that women will continue to do so, in my absence

 

OP, my 'game' is being my authentic self and dismissing those who do not accept and embrace that self. Being alone and authentic is far superior and more healthy than playing some cat and mouse game with a box. Read my past posts for insight into how much I love and respect women and reconcile the above with that perspective. It's an interesting road.

[sally4sara]

Women care about emotions and feelings - but only about their emotion and feelings, that's it. In fact, guy's emotions - if there are any - are likely to be perceived as burden. .

 

Refure away, if you can .

 

Of course I'm going to care more about my feelings and emotions if I just met the guy! And yeah, a guy I just met is a burden if he is all emotional from go.

If I get to know and care for someone however, I'm more prone to caring for them more than I care for myself.

Sometimes I feel like guys get more upset about women not automatically nurturing them because they think it is a woman's natural role to be all mothering and soft.

We can be, but not immediately! I know your mother told you you were a special boy, but I need some proof of this before I spend all my emotional energy on someone.

 

And I know guys get weary quick if they meet a girl who is clingy and needy right off. Being too eager for a relationship is a different way of being "easy". Why is it horrible and self centered for a woman to brush off a guy who does this, but okay when a guy avoids a woman who is similar?

 

Who dislikes nice people? No one!

Who dislikes needy, clingy people who immediately want a committed relationship with anyone willing to talk with them? No one? Yeah right!

 

I feel like the male sex drive does add an extra ick factor for men who act this way. Women know and generally accept that if a guy is interested in knowing her better, it is because he desires sex with her. If a guy acts clingy and needy on top of that, it gives an extra ick vibe because it makes him seem desperate for not just companionship but sex as well. And there is nothing sexy about "mercy sex".

[LucreziaBorgia]

This shows that women never truly love a man. It is all about her ego and having the power to attract even the most unattainable man. Once she has him she loses interest. It is not about love but about ego stroking and an emotional high. This is why many men won't commit.

 

It goes both ways really, you could change the gender of the pronouns and have it be valid for a good deal of men out there as well.

[Woggle]

It goes both ways really, you could change the gender of the pronouns and have it be valid for a good deal of men out there as well.

 

Some men are like this but it is women who seem to thrive off of emotional drama. They seem to get bored and normal and healthy relationships.

[The Collector]

Sam Spade is right, even the most alpha-est of alphas has some vulnerabilities and would like a partner he can lean on in his darker times. Sadly most women prefer a 'rock' (even if he's a psychopath) and any sign of 'weakness' ie humanity can lead to a massive drop in attraction and respect. Women don't even like it when men get ill. This is how evolution ensures the strongest survive I guess, but it can be tiring and doesn't exactly inspire devotion.

[LucreziaBorgia]

Some men are like this but it is women who seem to thrive off of emotional drama. They seem to get bored and normal and healthy relationships.

 

I agree with you there to an extent. I'm not sure it is 'normal/healthy' they get bored with so much as the idea of nothing emotionally new being left to discover. Plenty of 'men' out there can provide normal and healthy relationships, but still manage to keep a certain part of themselves off limits emotionally and darned if that doesn't keep the women hanging on. I don't see it as a game so much as a way to self protect.

 

That little bit of yourself that you keep only to yourself may be the only thing keeping your head above water and relatively sane when things go south. I've seen far too many people give all of themselves and when they get ditched literally their whole being comes crashing down because they let the other person have all of it and crush all of it on the way out.

 

I will always keep a part of my heart to myself now. I used to be a 'giver' and I would give all of myself to my men and invariably get dumped, used, left, etc, leaving a wake of depression and extreme rebuilding to have to do.

 

No more. That doesn't make me a bitch, really. Just smart enough to know that you have to preserve some part of yourself to fall back on emotionally. It helps that it keeps the other person interested, but that isn't really why I do it.

 

Perhaps that is what separates the 'nice' from the 'bad'? The ability to be stingy with parts of our hearts, and have it work to our advantage at the same time?

[sally4sara]

Sam Spade is right, even the most alpha-est of alphas has some vulnerabilities and would like a partner he can lean on in his darker times. Sadly most women prefer a 'rock' (even if he's a psychopath) and any sign of 'weakness' ie humanity can lead to a massive drop in attraction and respect. Women don't even like it when men get ill. This is how evolution ensures the strongest survive I guess, but it can be tiring and doesn't exactly inspire devotion.

 

My whole life, all I ever heard is that women are not tolerated to get ill. Every relationship I've had and every relationship I've been closely exposed to -

Men acting helpless over the sniffles while mom still has to care for him and the kids despite having the same illness. Even in the relationship I'm happily in now. I got really sick a couple of years ago with the flu and it laid me up for 5 days. By day 3 he was slamming pots around and shoving flu medicine at me in a huff.

I nursed him and waited on him hand and foot for 3 weeks after his back surgery while working 2 jobs. The only time I got fussy was when some guy tried to mug me on the way to work and my SO was too hopped up on pain pills to seem concerned when I told him about it that evening.

 

How many years have YOU been a wife and mother to know what you're talking about?

[Woggle]

Sam Spade is right, even the most alpha-est of alphas has some vulnerabilities and would like a partner he can lean on in his darker times. Sadly most women prefer a 'rock' (even if he's a psychopath) and any sign of 'weakness' ie humanity can lead to a massive drop in attraction and respect. Women don't even like it when men get ill. This is how evolution ensures the strongest survive I guess, but it can be tiring and doesn't exactly inspire devotion.

 

This is true and is why I put my friends first. I remember sleeping on a friend's couch so why I wouldn't be homeless back in the day and how him and many others looked out for me when I was at my lowest. It was us against the world back in those days. Now that I am doing much better I will never forget that. I seriously doubt that a woman would ever be there for me like that.

[EddieN]

Personally, I think there need to be more than just two divisions - nice guys vs. jerks. Let me break it down some more:

 

(By the way, I don't like making social groups like these. Anyone probably has a number of different traits from each of these categories, but in general these categories are pretty accurate.)

True Nice Guys - these guys are a pleasure to be around. They control their anger, they're polite, they talk very highly of you and many others...ie they make you feel happy. They're not aggressive and sometimes a bit passive, but their passiveness doesn't seem to bother them - they just accept it.

 

I know a guy like this. He is the happiest and nicest guy I've ever known. He's not very sexually masculine, meaning he doesn't give out a vibe of being much of a man or a big success with the ladies, just a decent person. He has a girlfriend, though.

 

Nice Guys With a Chip On Their Shoulder (Bitter Doormats) - these guys could have originally been like the one I described above, but they eventually started to feel dissatisfied with themselves. Most were not like that, I believe. They've always been passive and non-offending, but the major thing is that they're pissed at girls for not wanting them. In one word - they're bitter. They get frustrated very easily (we all gret frustrated sometimes, but these guys keep that frustration and let it build up, making them more annoyed as time progresses). A lot of times as well, they try too hard.

 

I knew a guy like this also. Towards the end of my freshmen year of college I started to go out to parties a bit more often with the people in my dorm. Some nights I managed to get a girl's number or hook up with one and some nights were completely dry for me. It didn't bug me and I would just try my best to enjoy myself if no girls seemed into me on a particular night. This guy, however, would go out with the intention of getting laid and would leave the party early every time, annoyed and disappointed. I wasn't any don juan myself obviously, but I thought that maybe I could talk to him and we could help each other out. After talking with him, this guy was very bitter towards girls that it was disgusting.

 

Fake Nice Guys - they are very similar to the guys with chips on their shoulders, except these guys might not be so genuinely decent. Instead, they have the false idea that the way to get girls in bed is to smother them and be overly nice. Then when this doesn't work (and when does it ever work?) they flip out, become extremely frustrated, and become bitter.

 

With the guys I talked about above, they're at least being themselves, but are becoming bitter over the fact that no girl seems to be attracted to who they truly are. Fake nice guys aren't even true to themselves - they pretend, and tthey have very bad choice in what pretending to be.

 

Wannabe Jerks/Players - these guys are the most pathetic. They're not a pleasure for any decent guy to be around, because sooner or later they'll start ripping on the decent guy to impress a girl. That's their thing - they're insecure with themselves that they have to belittle other guys. They do most things to look hot for girls - tight a&f clothing, earrings, very define body, etc. The only thing they have going for them are their bodies, which do attract a number of girls, but their whole mind is based around their body. Sometimes at parties, I'd be talking with a girl and one of these guys would interrupt and make fun of my pecs or arms and tell the girl to feel his. Or I'd just be walking by, and they'd bring me into the conversation as a stepping stool for their egos.

 

Bottom line is, they appear to have confidence to some girls, but that fake confidence comes from being a jerk to other guys and their fitness alone - not their brains, personality, etc.

 

These guys can succeed with dumb girls who can't tell the difference between confidence and fake confidence.

 

Real Jerks/Players - these guys just don't give a ****. As a guy, I can usually tell the difference between a real jerk and a fake jerk, and let me tell you, I have a lot more respect for a real jerk. Most of the time I find them to be funny and entertaining and end up liking them a lot.

 

They're "jerks" in the sense that they'll say anything with tons of confidence and they won't care what other people say/think in response. They might make a crack at you, but they won't harp on you like fake jerks will. They don't do it to boost their ego - they just do it because that's they're personality, to be a wise ass. They don't need to resort to belittling other guys to impress girls, because they have plenty to impress them with already.

 

A guy I knew was just like this. A bit shorter than me, but very muscular. He would say the raunchiest stuff with such boldness that guys couldn't help but laugh. Granted, he put off and offended a lot of girls, but his utter manliness and I don't give a **** attitude seemed to attract so many more.

 

Gentlemen - the right balance between jerks and nice guys. These guys won't be offending like jerks will, but at the same time they don't take **** from anyone. They'll have more tolerance than jerks - ie they are better at controlling themselves and keeping cool in situations where people are showing them disrespect. Unlike jerks, they don't resort to getting macho and physical when someone shows them disrespect - they're cool and charismatic enough to brush it off with words and a good smile. Gentleman don't bash other guys, period. They don't need the ego boost and it's not their personality.

 

I think the best way to describe a gentleman is a cooler and classier version of jerk. He has the same amount of confidence, but is less controversial or noticeable. Think of it this way - a girl walks into a party and the first guy she notices is the vin diesel-looking guy who has his arms around two girls, is loud, and is the dominant voice out of the circle of people he's talking to. He'll turn heads a lot and will get a mixed variety of reactions.

 

She might not notice that cute and classy gentleman, smiling and talking to maybe one girl or one of his friends or two. Depending on what the girl who just walked in likes, she might stick around the jerk the entire party, or she might go to the jerk to begin with, but then notice the gentleman and slowly gravitate towards him.

 

The gentleman is more subtle than the jerk or player, but he is not any less masculine or confident. It is simply a different style.

[The Collector]

My whole life, all I ever heard is that women are not tolerated to get ill. Every relationship I've had and every relationship I've been closely exposed to -

Men acting helpless over the sniffles while mom still has to care for him and the kids despite having the same illness. Even in the relationship I'm happily in now. I got really sick a couple of years ago with the flu and it laid me up for 5 days. By day 3 he was slamming pots around and shoving flu medicine at me in a huff.

I nursed him and waited on him hand and foot for 3 weeks after his back surgery while working 2 jobs. The only time I got fussy was when some guy tried to mug me on the way to work and my SO was too hopped up on pain pills to seem concerned when I told him about it that evening.

 

How many years have YOU been a wife and mother to know what you're talking about?

 

Yes it certainly seems I was wrong and women are very understanding and caring when a man dares to get 'the sniffles.'

[Woggle]

It's not just about sickness. Women have a habit of leaving men who are working towards a bigger goald and then wanting him back when he reaches it. My ex cheated and left me partly because our house was a dump and she was tired of me not making it. About a year after out divorce I found some of her stuff while cleaning the place out and called her to come and pick it up. She came inside and was shocked at how well the house looked. By that time I had gotten a promotion and was living pretty well. All of a sudden she wanted to give us a 2nd chance. I kicked her out because I was so angry at how she wanted to share the fruits of my labor after betraying me during the hard part.

[Thaddeus]

There's a lot of truth in EddieN's post.

[sally4sara]

Yes it certainly seems I was wrong and women are very understanding and caring when a man dares to get 'the sniffles.'

 

You'd have loved my grandfather. Your best mate could have just died and he would use it as a segue to his feeling fatigued or having a headache. My grandmother was having surgery and the only questions he had for the hospital staff was:

 

"So when will she be done enough to drive me home?"

[carhill]

There's a lot of truth in EddieN's post.

So much so that I added it to my signature

 

Topically, I find it interesting, in real life, that female friends and acquaintances generally focus on bitch sessions about the jerks (or their guy being a jerk) but rarely if ever gush about the great men in their lives. It's almost like joy and happiness and gratitude are alien emotions, reserved only for their children (whom they gush on about ad-nauseum for hours). I don't make the news, merely report it as I've seen it. I can't count the times where I go 'well, remember when he did this' or 'I thought that was really nice of him to say/do that' and it gets swallowed up in the negativity. After a period of that, I then realize that all I am is a tampon so I pull on the string myself for removal from that nasty psyche

[The Collector]

You'd have loved my grandfather. Your best mate could have just died and he would use it as a segue to his feeling fatigued or having a headache. My grandmother was having surgery and the only questions he had for the hospital staff was:

 

"So when will she be done enough to drive me home?"

 

Well men can be selfish jerks too of course.

 

The story of the bankers, fallen from grace and power, and in their hour of need also losing their partners, is telling. Men realise that it's easy to get women along for the ride when the goings good. But the only ones we could truly love and trust are the ones that will be there when it all goes tits up.

[FleshNBones]

No, I just find it an interesting topic, and seeing how people react to the biological and evolutionary explanation. I give relationship advice to a lot of female friends, and also have guy friends that are players. I notice girls are incredibly bad at spotting even the biggest players. But then again of course the players are deceptive.

Everybody seems to specialize in something. Players are very good at what they do, and it seems to be the only thing they are good at.

 

Most girls seem to feel their way through their lives rather than think. Play on those emotions and they will be suckers to the end. This is one thing I have no patience for.

 

Women seem to prefer social status, or men who seem to have a command over others. I guess the hope or expectation is that the lesser men actually possess survival skills.

 

As far as proving ourselves, I don't think most women know the difference between brave and stupid. It probably doesn't matter.

 

There is definitely a competition for the available women. Of the dating pool, you can only have a stable relationship with a relatively few. In this day and age, most women are a liability.

[Woggle]

So much so that I added it to my signature

 

Topically, I find it interesting, in real life, that female friends and acquaintances generally focus on bitch sessions about the jerks (or their guy being a jerk) but rarely if ever gush about the great men in their lives. It's almost like joy and happiness and gratitude are alien emotions, reserved only for their children (whom they gush on about ad-nauseum for hours). I don't make the news, merely report it as I've seen it. I can't count the times where I go 'well, remember when he did this' or 'I thought that was really nice of him to say/do that' and it gets swallowed up in the negativity. After a period of that, I then realize that all I am is a tampon so I pull on the string myself for removal from that nasty psyche

 

Women never remember or notice anything good that you do for them.