I'm in so much pain, and so

[GrayClouds]

...that is when it crosses over into abuse.

 

I understand and appreciate your concern Lisa, but I do think you may be bring some of your own biases too strongly the the thread. I myself likely would be significantly more stuck if Tara would not have choose to push me beyond a level of comfort. It is about intent, abuse is a desire to cause harm, there is not intent other then someone trying to help another.

 

Nothing had change from Tara's tone from her first post to her last and in SHB own words:

 

Thanks for writing, Tara.

 

 

The advice Tarra suggest is no difference then that of some medical experts suggest:

Dr Tian Dayton is the author of Emotional Sobriety: From Relationship Trauma to Resilience and Balance:

 

The relational patterns encoded into the limbic system do not necessarily respond to insight alone. Instead they respond to the slow re-patterning or recoding of the complex brain and body systems. Simply to experience powerful emotions in the presence of others and get from the beginning to the end of them without acting out or triggering a crisis or collapsing into helplessness is re-patterning and rewiring. Slowly, over time, it re-regulates our own emotional responses. which in turn re-regulate behavior.

Pointing out that this re-regulating can be done often take a bit of tuff love to break us out of our habit.

 

 

 

.

[tojaz]

I don't feel Taras posts were abusive. That being that abuse requires an intent to harm and I don't feel that was Taras intent. I actually think that Taras posts hold a lot of very good advice that SHB could stand to hear.

 

That being said Tara, there is a lot to be said for using a chainsaw when a scalpel would be appropriate. The blunt and in your face approach works for some, but some people going through a fragile time in their lives cannot bear that approach regardless of how well meaning and on many points even accurate. You have a lot of wisdom to share.

 

The thing I noticed though, is that SHB asked you quite sincerely to stop. While this is an open forum, this is SHB's thread and it is perfectly reasonable for her to ask to be treated how she needs and is only proper for any and all posters to respect her request. It seems now, that she feels the need to leave LS and that alone makes these posts inappropriate. We are here to help not to drive people away.

TOJAZ

[Surfer Girl]

In the context of someone trying to relate harsh realties... The person relaying those thoughts perhaps thought well enough of the person to be able to handle those thoughts... Perhaps the distinction is not really knowing if this is the right time and place for one to accept... We all handle grief in the ways we can best adapt... The understanding of recognizing when one is able and willing to handle the harsh truth....

 

Sometimes it takes time and compassion.... as much as we want others to seek the knowledge perhaps we have gained from the hurt of others.... There is a time when one can accept and a time when one will recognize the time line to say enough is enough.... but each one needs that time to grieve in the best way they know how.... It doesn't matter that one person may take more time than others and still needs to relate the pain.... It is still an acknowledgement and wanting that understanding, seeking a momentary understanding that perhaps one has gone thru this painful event and trying to overtake a different thought process that brings less pain... There really is no time limit... it only when we feel good enough about ourselves that we recognize we are going to be ok without this person because we don't have a choice but we still have a life and life is to short to waste on someone that doesn't recognize our attributes...

 

As long as it takes.... there will be an understanding one day...

[curiou]

DISCLAIMER: I am not offering advice as a medical professional, purely based on my own reading and interpretation of events that have happened to me, my understanding of the literature, and my own interaction with psychotherapists versed in the treatment of a bereaving party.

 

The following post may contain controversial statements. Please read at your own risk, and avoid if you would rather not expose yourself to what you might consider offensive remarks.

 

I think it would be useful for people who are unaware that there is an important distinction between a normal grieving process and unhealthy negative thinking.

I think everyone accepts that there is a normal, orderly grieving process. The feelings after left by someone include despair, loneliness, anger, guilt, and the myriad other things that come to pass. These are expected and should be processed.

However, along with the grieving process, negative thoughts sometimes creep into our psyche and make a home for themselves. Feelings of self-loathing, suicidal ideation, persistent self-blame, feelings of hopelessness, can sometimes fester and turn into something we carry with us, that start affecting the way we think from the moment we get up until the moment we go to sleep, and sometimes haunt us even in our dreams. This is a process psychologists call rumination. It appears that women are particularly susceptible to rumination, and tend to focus on persistent negative thinking when dealing with a negative life event. Men, however, seem to favor distraction techniques (keeping themselves busy, etc.) [reference: work by Susan Nolen]

It is important to recognize that none of the posters who are yelling, “snap out of it!” are asking people to stop grieving the loss of a partner. I certainly not encouraging anyone to stop grieving. You must come to terms with the loss of a partner, find acceptance, and look towards the future. This is the grieving that I am talking about and what I understand others to mean when they use the term.

It is the persistent negative thinking that we are asking people to try to modify. Thought-stopping may be harmful to the grieving process, but it is helpful to curb rumination that involves self-destructive thinking. I’m not going to cite literature, but it exists, and anyone can do a pubmed search to see that this has been researched. If research and published papers are not your thing, try a google search for “stopping rumination.” If you don’t believe me or want to believe me, it’s unlikely you would research the matter further anyway.

Suffice it to say that if you are telling yourself that the negative thoughts you are feeling towards yourself are normal, and other people are telling you that it is normal, and that you can’t or shouldn’t really stop the negative thoughts because it is normal and is supposed to take years, you are not going to stop or curb them anytime soon. You are in fact substantially contributing to the perpetuation of the negative thoughts about yourself. The first step must be to recognize that you’re having them.

I am a fellow survivor of a relationship nightmare. I am merely writing from experience about the things that helped me psychologically during my recovery. If you doubt what I say or don't believe that I was able to modify my negative thinking years ago, please ask yourself why you are doubting me? What reason would I have to lie? More importantly, what reason would you have for not accepting that in fact, it happened as I say it did? It might be for you to justify continuing to feel this way.

 

 

Regarding the "harsh" attitude that has been ascribed to TaraMaiden, I'm not going to comment on the validity of that assertion, because it makes no difference. This is an open internet forum, and the idea that there is "ownership" of a thread, in my view, is not logical. Soheartbroken and LisaUK, being law students, may understand the legal nuances better, and I may be wrong. Consider, however, recent other posts in this forum, when one poster stated something regarding accepting religion as the only way to get through a devastating event, and another asked that poster to stop "cramming" religion down everyone's throats. The majority of responses supported the original poster's right to write whatever he wanted, and that the reader, if he or she found the original poster's point of view to be offensive, should avoid reading the posts.

 

Also, writing someone is acting like an idiot over an anonymous internet forum is pretty much on the same level as saying that a poster is pond scum for admitting having an affair. We don't know the full details of other posters' lives, and I can only infer based on what is written. Everyone makes judgments.

 

I don't think Tara is breaching netiquette willfully, and I certainly don't think she is trolling soheartbroken.

[Gunny376]

(SoHeartBroken is a woman. You know that, right?)

 

Just to let you know, because it sounds as though you're assuming, with the 'man' and the 'dude' that SBH is male.

 

Just saying....

 

This is true Tara, but SHB is reacting harshly to her breakup as a man would, (Men go tilt going through a breakup ~ almost completly non-funtional on so many levels ~ aka yours truly back in the day? I was lost, dazed and confussed ~ running around in circles screaming and shouting!)

 

Now I say that based upon books I've read, which basically comes down to a woman can have a partially masculinzed brains, and vice versa.

 

There's no doubt in my mind that your not having a hard time with your breakup SHB. And I agree with Tara you've just got to reach down when your at your lowest and pull yourself up from underneath the heels of your boots and climb out using your bootstrings.

 

And I again don't see wheather being this or that has a dilly-damn to do with anything. A heartache? Is a heartache. A heart break is a heart break! A betrayal is a betrayal.

 

Even Spock on Star Trek went through it!

 

Ok~ Sorry went too far with that one!

[tojaz]

You've got to know when to quit, because you just undid a lot of work that you accomplished with your first post.

 

I don't really understand how out of all the posters on LS, I'm the one being attacked so vigorously here, Tara. There are people who have been struggling for much longer than I have all over LS...

 

I admit that I'm not ready to let go yet. Just leave it at that. I considered what you said, I even thanked you for writing. You think I'm doing this to myself. I get it, you made your point. I GET IT. I don't need to be berated publicly for a third and fourth time - I thought we were past this. I know myself, and this is THE LAST kind of thing that I respond to, unless it is done tactfully and with compassion (e.g. Gunny), and not from a self-admitted bully. I don't know why you feel compelled to shame me like this. It is the last thing that I need.

 

 

You've basically spoiled my entire thread at this point. I don't feel comfortable writing anymore because everyone's going to read all the **** you spewed at me and think I'm some crazy person torturing myself. As if I'm less deserving of sharing my feelings than other people.

 

For the hundredth time, I write here to get things off my chest, and to maybe hear back from others who give me hope. This is the point of LS (for me). I wouldn't come to this forum only to write about positive things.

 

This has gotten way out of hand. What began as looking for hope has now turned into me being belittled in some ****ed up internet situation.

 

**** it.

 

Regarding the "harsh" attitude that has been ascribed to TaraMaiden, I'm not going to comment on the validity of that assertion, because it makes no difference. This is an open internet forum, and the idea that there is "ownership" of a thread, in my view, is not logical. Soheartbroken and LisaUK, being law students, may understand the legal nuances better, and I may be wrong. Consider, however, recent other posts in this forum, when one poster stated something regarding accepting religion as the only way to get through a devastating event, and another asked that poster to stop "cramming" religion down everyone's throats. The majority of responses supported the original poster's right to write whatever he wanted, and that the reader, if he or she found the original poster's point of view to be offensive, should avoid reading the posts.

 

Also, writing someone is acting like an idiot over an anonymous internet forum is pretty much on the same level as saying that a poster is pond scum for admitting having an affair. We don't know the full details of other posters' lives, and I can only infer based on what is written. Everyone makes judgments.

 

I don't think Tara is breaching netiquette willfully, and I certainly don't think she is trolling soheartbroken.

 

True, nobody "owns" a thread. there are no laws dictating what can and cannot be said in response. Common decency and respect for the thread originator is something different though.

 

This is an open forum, which means that anyone is welcome to respond. It also means that if you have an opinion that is unwelcome on someone elses thread, you can start your own.

 

Thats the way I tend to post. I offer my advice where i can and if it's not welcome I move on. If I feel the need to be heard, I start a thread. SHB as quoted above, had asked for the harsh posts to stop, indicated that she felt uncomfortable and even unwelcome on LS yet Tara persisted and that is the issue really. Taras advice is quite sound, SHB even stated this, but the way it was delivered caused pain and distress. LS is about support.

 

I think it would be useful for people who are unaware that there is an important distinction between a normal grieving process and unhealthy negative thinking.

 

Yes Curiou we know, I have seen you on many other threads expressing your vast clinical knowledge of the grieving process and how everyone is doing it wrong. I have seen at least one that you indicated the debate as sport for you while the other participant was coping with very real emotions including thoughts of harming themselves. People here hurt, this is not a game or a hobby! These are people sharing their hurt and their lives. If you want to get your message out, start your own thread and share your own story.

 

It is very rare that a post gets my fur up, so I apologize if I offended anyone, but while nobody "owns" a thread, it is only right that the thread be allowed to continue on a path beneficial to the person who started it, thats its purpose in the first place. Regardless of how well meaning , this thread has ceased to be able to serve the person asking for help in it. I hope that should SHB choose to return, that she can be allowed to get back on track the way she needs to.

TOJAZ

Edited December 17, 2009 by tojaz

[trippi1432]

Curiou,

 

I sense a lot of hostility in your post and it is not appreciated here. You may assume whatever you want as it is your opinion, but until you learn to RESPECT the opinions of all members here, you have no right to personally attack someone for helping a friend.

 

You and TaraMaiden can have your own opinons if you like; however, when you let them consume you to the point of pushing the issue to the brink, you are only doing this for selfish reasons.

 

TaraMaiden, it is a shame that you had to get to the lowest point of your life to finally realize what you needed to do to better yourself...but not everyone is like you nor needs to get to that point to get out of their "hole". You can be helpful by sharing your experience, not trying to identify that everyone has to get through it like you or try to save them from themselves.

 

Curiou,

 

While you think that your extensive research and background (as well as the experience) may help you to identify with others' grief and how they handle it, your personal attacks are not welcome here. Taunting another member just because they want you to stop bullying another member (after you have repeatedly been asked to stop) is reminiscent of childish behavior. Since you won't post your own story, I can only assume that this behavior led to the downfall of where you are now.

 

Oh, and let me add for both of you.....apathy for another human being is totally acceptable if they screwed you over, but apathy for people you don't know is a mental condition that requires years of therapy.....have a good day.

Edited December 18, 2009 by trippi1432
Rethought it and to hades with being nice.

[Gunny376]

Whoa, whoa, whoa! Hold up there!

 

There are serious repercussions for getting out of hand here at LS.

 

And I'm not going to take sides in this or that? But who has any right to tell anyone their time is up in hurting and grieving?

 

Queen Victoria morned for thirty years over the death of Prince Albert.

 

Tara I understand your argument ~ I really do. Get over it and get on with your Life. And I whole heartedly agree with that. But for some its easier said than done.

 

Me, myself and I? I had to fight for that! I had to earn that. That was back before the interned. That was back before computers, e-mail, jesting, when it was just me George Jones, a fifth of Jack Daniels, and a Fred Flintstone jelly glass.

 

Back when if I sought out help in help in the Marines for losing my ever-loving mind over my wife, my family, my children any pyschological probably would have cost me my carrier and my job of sixteen years.

 

I serve in the Marine Corps back when any mental, pyschological, emotional, physical weakness meant you were history.

 

I served with guys that had 19-1/2 years, six months of retirement were kicked out of the Marines for having a beer belly, being three pounds over their maximum weight allotment.

 

It got so bad that Congress had to pass a law that unless you committed a felony after eighteen years of service? You couldn't be discharged.

 

They would kick you out of the Marines if you developed asthma, bronconhtic, after eighteen years and could no longer run three miles in under 28 minutes.

 

So you need to back off on SHB and LisaUK. However long it takes ~ is how long it takes!

 

Obvisoully you've never had a PO Marine on your @zz!

 

Either be part of the solution~ Or be part of the problem!

 

Either be part of the answers ~ or be part of the questions!

 

And if you can't? Be gone!

 

These people are hurting ~ just as I was literally dying back in the day. I'm not going to say you've got it light. But back in the day it was just me, Jack Daniels.

 

And that was it!

 

Lets get together and find the solutions to the problems and the answers to the questions!

 

Pull together people!

 

Answer the questions ~ RIGHT NOW!

[Gunny376]

Just want to say Tamra I'm not taking away from your strength.

 

 

Your all day strong!

[ryepatch]

i agree with tojaz and trippi.

 

i quit LS because people wouldn't leave me alone, called my wife a psycho, demeaned my commitment to her, etc.

 

i got bullied off this forum.

 

i'm back to defend SHB (and Lisa) only.

 

people are always projecting their own struggles onto others.

 

and most of us don't come on here looking for saviours. we want to commiserate.

 

lay off.