Porn

[Els]

My apologies for the mistake. Can you clarify your views on the above list of controversial items then?

 

There are ways to express your views without generalizing everyone who does not agree with you as being wrong-minded.

[Gamine]

My apologies for the mistake. Can you clarify your views on the above list of controversial items then?

 

There are ways to express your views without generalizing everyone who does not agree with you as being wrong-minded.

 

Read my posts. I do not state that everyone who doesn't think as I do is wrong minded. Wrong minded refers to situational morality. In one country using little girls is acceptable. In another it may be something else. To a villager in the rain forest, all may be outlandish. Our cultures play into what is considered right and wrong. When I bring up the issue of the girls in Africa your response is that it is sick and wrong and you base this upon constructs that our society holds. Such as having non consensual sex with a child. In our society this is wrong. In another it is not. To another society porn would be ridiculous. To another it is fabulous. These opinions and classifications may not be the MAJORITY opinion or it may be the majority opinion. My point is that if you are 'wrong-minded' one will swing from whatever tree they can if it is condoned societally. Yet, what we as a society embrace is fine... because we've stamped it with our approval. Yet, you can 'judge' the situation in Africa with contempt. You say these are not the same things... and shouldn't be thrown into the same analysis. However, you are wrong. They are the same things. Just different 'actions'. In order to 'do' what is done with regard to the little girls the culture had to first determine that their lives do not have as much value, or any value at all. Then, the next step on the ladder is how their superstitions or cultural actions are expressed to those whose lives do not matter. It is an ever shifting analysis not based on universal rights and wrongs. It is about their individual world and how they see things. To them there is nothing wrong with it. How many situations are we involved in... in our culture... whereby we believe there is nothing wrong with it... and yet we turn a blind eye to the tears that fall behind the scenes.

 

I shared a story of a young woman who got herself involved with porn because she believed she had no options... got out of it, married and had a child. She explained how she cried on her way home from the tapings. How she turned her life around... and her porn watching husband... upon finding out about her past... flipped out. She has a broken heart. She wishes she could pull everything off the internet. But she cannot.

 

This story was heartbreaking to me. Yet when I shared it I was met with statements like... who gives a darn. She got paid. She had options. Tough luck.

 

Did it matter that she no longer gives her consent? No. Does anyone care about her tragic story of how she got mixed up in it? No. Her tears don't matter one bit. They say she did the deed now pay.

 

Who's right and who's wrong? My point is that if you really look deeply into the heart of the 'situations' you will see that there is sometimes cultural justifications that lead to familiarity and acceptance... not because it is right or kind... but because others agree it is okay. We can clearly see how other cultures may be missing the mark. Other cultures may see that we are infidels. Who's right and who's wrong?

 

Is there a deep down morality that spans all cultures that should be adhered to? Is there a kind heart that can see through the actions and spot cruelty? Is there a kind heart that can spot the immorality?

 

Situationally almost everyone from differing cultures can.

 

So who is to say that universally what we hold as 'okay' is in fact 'okay'?

 

We, in our limited circle simply agree that it is. Look beyond what strikes as the agreement amongst people to see the deeper rights or wrongs absent the cultural agreement.

[AAlike]

In reading over the countless posts there are a few incongruent statements that stand out to me.

 

On one hand, there is the argument that porn is not sex.

 

On the other hand, it is argued that with differing libidos porn is a handy way of taking care of the 'spill over' for sex that isn't 'taken care of' by the SO.

 

Which is it? Either porn is sex or porn isn't sex.

 

If porn is used as a 'spill over' to take care of sex that the SO isn't doing a hefty job of taking care of, then it is most definitely sex and it is nothing less than using other 2d women as surrogate sex partners.

 

Hence, the objection.

 

sex is sex. masturbation, whether porn is used or not, is sex. porn is a movie.

 

gamine, in the situation of "varying libidos" or whatever, would you be ok with your SO masturbating without using porn? or only if he is thinking exclusively of you (i.e. lying)?

 

let's leave porn out of the equation for the moment, because blaming "porn" as an entity is like blaming the a-bomb itself instead of the people that dropped it. I think that porn's graphic nature and its relative absurdity in today's time adds some "shock value" that clouds what i believe is the real issue here.

 

let's say hypothetically, for whatever reason, my wife has not been interested in having sex for the last week - and as a result I wake up fairly aroused on a Sunday morning (which happens to men quite a bit). My wife and I go to the movies and we see a romantic comedy of some sort - during which there is a love scene in which the lead actress' breasts are exposed, and this heightens my arousal a bit. so after the movie I go shopping and i pick up some flowers and candles in hopes of seducing the wife. By the time I get home she's cleaning the house and just doesn't feel well and essentially rebuffs the advance. so later that evening I decide to "rub one out", and yes, the love scene and the actress' breasts do make it back into my head during this process.

 

Some questions:

 

Should I have simply waited until my wife was feeling up to having sex in order to have an orgasm (keep in mind that I probably have not gone a week without orgasming since I have been able to have one, whether single or in a relationship, and I'd be willing to bet that most men haven't either unless they were in a situation where it was not possible)?

 

Does this mean that I have "had sex" with this this actress in the same manner that I would have with my wife?

 

Did I cheat on my wife the instant that I was aroused by the love scene? Did the actress become a "surrogate sex partner" at that moment? and if so, should I have looked away from the screen so as not to "disrespect" my wife? or was my becoming aroused by it a sign of weakness and if I really love my wife I would have stifled it? and given that my wife is not built like the actress, does it imply that I truly desire a woman built like the actress?

 

As for the masturbation, was the masturbation permissable only if I would have thought exclusively of sex with my wife, and it became cheating when the scene popped into my head?

 

and finally, let's say that my wife did not reject the advance, and instead we started making out the whole ride home from the movie and had great sex...now given the fact that she had not been into it all week, but then she saw this movie and all of a sudden the tables turn - does that mean that she has used the male actor in the scene as a "surrogate sex partner" since she wasn't turned on until she saw the movie? does it mean that I, who also is not built anything close to a male lead, am not enough to turn her on and she secretly wants Brad Pitt and not me?

[You'reasian]

 

Do you even need to ask this???? I don't even get why you need to ask the answer to this.

 

 

You still haven't answered it in your own words

[Gamine]

sex is sex. masturbation, whether porn is used or not, is sex. porn is a movie.

 

gamine, in the situation of "varying libidos" or whatever, would you be ok with your SO masturbating without using porn? or only if he is thinking exclusively of you (i.e. lying)?

 

let's leave porn out of the equation for the moment, because blaming "porn" as an entity is like blaming the a-bomb itself instead of the people that dropped it. I think that porn's graphic nature and its relative absurdity in today's time adds some "shock value" that clouds what i believe is the real issue here.

 

let's say hypothetically, for whatever reason, my wife has not been interested in having sex for the last week - and as a result I wake up fairly aroused on a Sunday morning (which happens to men quite a bit). My wife and I go to the movies and we see a romantic comedy of some sort - during which there is a love scene in which the lead actress' breasts are exposed, and this heightens my arousal a bit. so after the movie I go shopping and i pick up some flowers and candles in hopes of seducing the wife. By the time I get home she's cleaning the house and just doesn't feel well and essentially rebuffs the advance. so later that evening I decide to "rub one out", and yes, the love scene and the actress' breasts do make it back into my head during this process.

 

Some questions:

 

Should I have simply waited until my wife was feeling up to having sex in order to have an orgasm (keep in mind that I probably have not gone a week without orgasming since I have been able to have one, whether single or in a relationship, and I'd be willing to bet that most men haven't either unless they were in a situation where it was not possible)?

 

Does this mean that I have "had sex" with this this actress in the same manner that I would have with my wife?

 

Did I cheat on my wife the instant that I was aroused by the love scene? Did the actress become a "surrogate sex partner" at that moment? and if so, should I have looked away from the screen so as not to "disrespect" my wife? or was my becoming aroused by it a sign of weakness and if I really love my wife I would have stifled it? and given that my wife is not built like the actress, does it imply that I truly desire a woman built like the actress?

 

As for the masturbation, was the masturbation permissable only if I would have thought exclusively of sex with my wife, and it became cheating when the scene popped into my head?

 

and finally, let's say that my wife did not reject the advance, and instead we started making out the whole ride home from the movie and had great sex...now given the fact that she had not been into it all week, but then she saw this movie and all of a sudden the tables turn - does that mean that she has used the male actor in the scene as a "surrogate sex partner" since she wasn't turned on until she saw the movie? does it mean that I, who also is not built anything close to a male lead, am not enough to turn her on and she secretly wants Brad Pitt and not me?

 

You have asked some thoughtful questions and I would like to thoughtfully answer them. Before addressing the questions, I was wondering if I could ask this of you first...

 

Is it a desire to orgasm or is there a desire for sexual intimacy?

[GorillaTheater]

sex is sex. masturbation, whether porn is used or not, is sex. porn is a movie.

 

gamine, in the situation of "varying libidos" or whatever, would you be ok with your SO masturbating without using porn? or only if he is thinking exclusively of you (i.e. lying)?

 

let's leave porn out of the equation for the moment, because blaming "porn" as an entity is like blaming the a-bomb itself instead of the people that dropped it. I think that porn's graphic nature and its relative absurdity in today's time adds some "shock value" that clouds what i believe is the real issue here.

 

let's say hypothetically, for whatever reason, my wife has not been interested in having sex for the last week - and as a result I wake up fairly aroused on a Sunday morning (which happens to men quite a bit). My wife and I go to the movies and we see a romantic comedy of some sort - during which there is a love scene in which the lead actress' breasts are exposed, and this heightens my arousal a bit. so after the movie I go shopping and i pick up some flowers and candles in hopes of seducing the wife. By the time I get home she's cleaning the house and just doesn't feel well and essentially rebuffs the advance. so later that evening I decide to "rub one out", and yes, the love scene and the actress' breasts do make it back into my head during this process.

 

Some questions:

 

Should I have simply waited until my wife was feeling up to having sex in order to have an orgasm (keep in mind that I probably have not gone a week without orgasming since I have been able to have one, whether single or in a relationship, and I'd be willing to bet that most men haven't either unless they were in a situation where it was not possible)?

 

Does this mean that I have "had sex" with this this actress in the same manner that I would have with my wife?

 

Did I cheat on my wife the instant that I was aroused by the love scene? Did the actress become a "surrogate sex partner" at that moment? and if so, should I have looked away from the screen so as not to "disrespect" my wife? or was my becoming aroused by it a sign of weakness and if I really love my wife I would have stifled it? and given that my wife is not built like the actress, does it imply that I truly desire a woman built like the actress?

 

As for the masturbation, was the masturbation permissable only if I would have thought exclusively of sex with my wife, and it became cheating when the scene popped into my head?

 

and finally, let's say that my wife did not reject the advance, and instead we started making out the whole ride home from the movie and had great sex...now given the fact that she had not been into it all week, but then she saw this movie and all of a sudden the tables turn - does that mean that she has used the male actor in the scene as a "surrogate sex partner" since she wasn't turned on until she saw the movie? does it mean that I, who also is not built anything close to a male lead, am not enough to turn her on and she secretly wants Brad Pitt and not me?

 

I'm bumping this because I thought AA asked some outstanding questions, and I'm curious to see them addressed.

[Jersey Shortie]

I get why Gamine is using the examples she is using. She isn't saying that non-consesual sex with a little child is the same as a consensual romp with a porn star. She is however saying that the mentality that a woman's body is only there to serve one purpose is alive and real STILL in this day and age even in a rich and afflulent cultures. A woman's purpose, to at least many men apparently, still remains her purpose is to service a man.

I really hope that men could understand how that hurts. We might be a ble to vote today, but I really don't believe women are equals. The difference now is that women in the rich and affluent culture willingly aid in their own degradement under a false sense of liberation because they ahve been told so many mixed up messages. Women need to change but they can't do it alone. If their husbands, fathers and brother's can't even support them and other women, then it's never going to change.

 

I have talked about this issue enough to know that men themselves even feel that way about women. They put women in little boxes. 1. Women worthy of my attention and deserve respect through their relationship and interaction with me. 2 . Every other woman there for my visual and masturbation arrousal if I deem them attractive enough, there for making them nothing but a tool for my pleasure that don't deserve respect because they havent' done anything for "me" directly.

 

I am afraid that the only reason men respect women is because if only because of his direct association with them. If a man does not have a direct association or bond with a woman, whether that's mother, sister, girlfriend, or wife; she is apparently nothing more then a means to his end. That is my fear about the culture we live in. I don't watch or support mediums that demean men, call them names or treat them only liek a walking wallet. I wish men would do the same in return for women.

 

Another world-wide issue, other then the one Gamine mentioned is Human trafficting. It envolves so many young girls and women. This isn't a small time issue. This is a huge world global issue about the complete degradement of women, and to a lesser extent, young boys. The men that use these girls and get them in the business are someone's father, brother or even boyfriend or husband. These aren't loners with no family.

 

The message remains that a woman's worth is less then that of a man's. If you don't see that message in our culture and others, then I think yuo are blind.

 

I know it's not easy being a man today, but it's even harder being a woman. It's freaking disheartening. Add in the fact that we live in a culture where men are even less likely to protect and honor women and women have been pretty much been thrown out the door on thei rown.

[Jersey Shortie]

Should I have simply waited until my wife was feeling up to having sex in order to have an orgasm (keep in mind that I probably have not gone a week without orgasming since I have been able to have one, whether single or in a relationship, and I'd be willing to bet that most men haven't either unless they were in a situation where it was not possible)?

Let me start by saying that in the case you mentioned, where something came along as an accident in the movie and a man gets aroused from seeing naked breasts, to me that is more understandable then if a man had gone out of his way to seek out the imagery of naked breasts on purpose. I don’t think that’s an unreasonable distinction. I realize that there is a lot of sexual messages purposely put out there to entice men. And as a man, I do understand why he would get turned on even if it would hurt my feelings a little. What I don’t get is why men purposely seek out the exact opposite of what they claim they want when they make the promise to be in a relationship.

 

 

I don’t think it’s fair to ask a man to go without having orgasms regularly. But I also don’t think it’s fair for men to act on their whims of fancy every time they feel the need and expect it to be reasonable, that the second their wife doesn’t service him, he *needs* to act on it anywhere short of physically sleeping with another woman. Porn has replaced self-control I think what a lot of women respect is a little self control. And I think that’s the real issue. Men don’t use self control anymore. If his partner isn’t there, he puts on a porno and gets himself off. There is nothing difficult about that. There is nothing he is denying himself in regards to other women when it comes to his partner.

 

How about directing your sexual energy back to your wife while you masturbate? Maybe the naked breasts got you excited and were a happy accident but why couldn’t you re-direct your thoughts back to your wife? I don’t expect a man will be perfect. No woman does. No one is asking for perfection. But I think women would be more happy to see more self control and more understanding for the difficult position you put women into. Just as a woman can put a man in a difficult position when she doesn’t’ have regular sex with him. At least he would be trying his best. Just as she should when it comes to sex and being more giving.

 

Does this mean that I have "had sex" with this this actress in the same manner that I would have with my wife?

 

No. To me it’s obvious that you didn’t have sex with the actress in the same manner you would physically have sex with your wife. However, there is a certain betrayal there. You are now thinking about the actress and about *you* having sex with *her*. About her breasts, her body, what that actress could provide you with, on a deep female level. To expect a woman to not be affected by that, especially one that cares for you, is just as unreasonable as a woman expecting a man to not get turned on if he sees nice looking breasts.

 

If your wife showed you her breasts for a view moments, would you instead of gone and masturbated to your wife? I would be really curious about your answer to my own questions.

 

Did I cheat on my wife the instant that I was aroused by the love scene? Did the actress become a "surrogate sex partner" at that moment? and if so, should I have looked away from the screen so as not to "disrespect" my wife? or was my becoming aroused by it a sign of weakness and if I really love my wife I would have stifled it? and given that my wife is not built like the actress, does it imply that I truly desire a woman built like the actress?

 

No. You didn’t cheat on your wife the instant you were aroused by the love scene. If you started thinking about you and the actress together and out of context of the scene, yes then she did become your “surrogate sex partner” in the moment. Is that cheating? Not really but it’s not exactly loyal now is it? As for you looking away, it depends on how you are able to look at the scene. While I don’t think becoming aroused alone is necessarily a sign of weakness, acting out on it or thinking about the actress in it, is. Believe it or not, I don’t think that a man’s love is dependent on if he stifled his desire or not. However, I do think his level of respect for his woman is dependent on it.

 

Lastly, what I don’t think men understand about women is that just about all women want to feel and be seen as beautiful. Being beautiful is what being female is about. 99% of women will not deny that. From age 5-100. This is why little girls play dress up. And young women are worried about labels and getting fat and older women feel hurt when the men they love are looking at porn of 20 year olds. A woman wants to be celebrated in her beauty. That actress on screen is on screen because she wants to feel beautiful, celebrated and special. Your woman at home, her needs aren’t any different. When a man gives his very male attention and focus on a woman, so much so that he finds her so attractive that he uses her for the most primal of experiences, it sends a huge message to your woman about the sexual availability you feel to other women. The pull, the attraction. Couple in the billion messages that women receive about how they aren’t beautiful enough, the messages they get from their men from their men themselves when he is clearly getting turned on by a woman that doesn’t look like her, and knowing how easily men evaluate and judge a woman’s body, and the pressure piles up. In all honest, how do men expect women to feel when men make it a point to say how they like a nice body, and how hot this girl is or that, and their own woman knowing they don’t live up to his ideals but he still expects her to feel sexy when she knows that he is more pleased by the sight of other women? Isn’t that a contradiction?

 

The woman on screen has billion of men lusting after her. Why does the one guy that we want to think of us as beautiful and feminine have to be one of the billion lusting after a woman that wouldn’t let lick her shoe. We aren’t asking for validation from millions of men. We ask for one man. And too often that one man is too often too eager to seek out validating the femininity of other women. The women on screen and in the pictures are asking for male validation. And too often, men are eager to give it. Celebrating the beauty of other women, and that woman getting pleasure from it but asking your own partner to be so un-female like and not want to be celebrated for her beauty is not fair. Asking many women to NOT be affected by porn, while men ARE, is not fair. Asking a man to not be turned on by nice boobs and a woman to not feel a pang about where she stands in all that..in all the sexual imagery he has coming to him, is not fair to the way women are built. Men are visual. Great. Women actually like that about men. But the fact that men are visual isn’t really the greatest justification to miss-direct that attention.

 

 

 

and finally, let's say that my wife did not reject the advance, and instead we started making out the whole ride home from the movie and had great sex...now given the fact that she had not been into it all week, but then she saw this movie and all of a sudden the tables turn - does that mean that she has used the male actor in the scene as a "surrogate sex partner" since she wasn't turned on until she saw the movie? does it mean that I, who also is not built anything close to a male lead, am not enough to turn her on and she secretly wants Brad Pitt and not me?

The rules are not any different for women. If she is thinking about that man specifically, then yes she is. However, more times then not, I think men are more guilty of this. Most women fantasize about their own partners then they do random men. I don’t think women are turned on in the same ways men are. Is she turned on because of the man’s body or because she wants to her own man to treat her like the man in the movie is? Most men aren’t getting turned on by the hot girl because he is thinking about his own partner. Most women don’t lust after a man’s body the way men lust after a woman’s. If Brad Pitt is on screen, he is your average 40 year old guy. For most men, he is lusting after some perky 20 year old girl. For women, it has less to do with the man and his body. By the way, I don’t find Brad Pitt attractive at all. Women usually think a man’s belly is cute and love him more for it. Men usually think their wives/gfs could loose a few pounds but keep them around because they are sweet while they trun to porn for the type of bodies they really wished they had.

[missdependant]

 

 

No. To me it’s obvious that you didn’t have sex with the actress in the same manner you would physically have sex with your wife. However........

 

lol.. then WHAT is the freaking problem? Betrayal? For looking at another snatch and another nice rack? Oh, please.

 

Earth to JS (the one who doesn't even WATCH porn), people don't watch porn and imagine they're having sex with the actors.. they watch people having sex with each other and get aroused. The SAME exact way that they show a quick sex scene in a rated R movie. You aren't imagining having sex with the actors.. but you might get turned on. Simple as that.

 

He ISN'T cheating by LOOKING. Get over it.

[Gamine]

lol.. then WHAT is the freaking problem? Betrayal? For looking at another snatch and another nice rack? Oh, please.

 

Earth to JS (the one who doesn't even WATCH porn), people don't watch porn and imagine they're having sex with the actors.. they watch people having sex with each other and get aroused. The SAME exact way that they show a quick sex scene in a rated R movie. You aren't imagining having sex with the actors.. but you might get turned on. Simple as that.

 

He ISN'T cheating by LOOKING. Get over it.

 

Oh, really now. It seems you are now representing the deep down truths and motivations of every single solitary MAN and woman. You are a woman. You have absolutely no capacity to speak for a man, let me tell you... you do not have a clue. Guys DO PUT THEMSELVES INTO THE SCENE... maybe not ALL GUYS... BUT THEY MOST DEFINITELY DO.... I'VE ASKED. THEY ANSWERED. THAT IS THE THRILL. Some may just use porn to start thinking about sex... but for heaven's sake. Given the posts I have read it doesn't seem that dudes require ANY HELP in that arena.

 

You are projecting your situation. At least JS and others posting here... including myself... have not only projected but have also educated ourselves.

[Gamine]

I get why Gamine is using the examples she is using. She isn't saying that non-consesual sex with a little child is the same as a consensual romp with a porn star. She is however saying that the mentality that a woman's body is only there to serve one purpose is alive and real STILL in this day and age even in a rich and afflulent cultures. A woman's purpose, to at least many men apparently, still remains her purpose is to service a man.

I really hope that men could understand how that hurts. We might be a ble to vote today, but I really don't believe women are equals. The difference now is that women in the rich and affluent culture willingly aid in their own degradement under a false sense of liberation because they ahve been told so many mixed up messages. Women need to change but they can't do it alone. If their husbands, fathers and brother's can't even support them and other women, then it's never going to change.

 

I have talked about this issue enough to know that men themselves even feel that way about women. They put women in little boxes. 1. Women worthy of my attention and deserve respect through their relationship and interaction with me. 2 . Every other woman there for my visual and masturbation arrousal if I deem them attractive enough, there for making them nothing but a tool for my pleasure that don't deserve respect because they havent' done anything for "me" directly.

 

I am afraid that the only reason men respect women is because if only because of his direct association with them. If a man does not have a direct association or bond with a woman, whether that's mother, sister, girlfriend, or wife; she is apparently nothing more then a means to his end. That is my fear about the culture we live in. I don't watch or support mediums that demean men, call them names or treat them only liek a walking wallet. I wish men would do the same in return for women.

 

Another world-wide issue, other then the one Gamine mentioned is Human trafficting. It envolves so many young girls and women. This isn't a small time issue. This is a huge world global issue about the complete degradement of women, and to a lesser extent, young boys. The men that use these girls and get them in the business are someone's father, brother or even boyfriend or husband. These aren't loners with no family.

 

The message remains that a woman's worth is less then that of a man's. If you don't see that message in our culture and others, then I think yuo are blind.

 

I know it's not easy being a man today, but it's even harder being a woman. It's freaking disheartening. Add in the fact that we live in a culture where men are even less likely to protect and honor women and women have been pretty much been thrown out the door on thei rown.

 

Yes, human trafficking. I read in a local newspaper that they had closed a brothel created to service Mexican men. Contained in the brothel were 12 year old girls. These girls were virgins when they starting being sold... and their first time came at quite a huge price tag... but they show up with their dollars greedily handing them over for the fortunate position of 'being the first'.

 

Tell me how far this is from the African situation? Not much.

 

Oh well. I suppose the naysayers will comment that these are 'bad people' but then attempt to compartmentalize this situation so that they can avoid ever really examining what propels abominations such as this. To the dudes patronizing the brothel they do not give two shakes if she is a 12 year old virgin drugged into entertaining them... to them she is there to serve their purpose.

 

How many purposes can men and women serve one another without this becoming nothing more than the degradation of the self and others?

[Vet]

Yes, human trafficking. I read in a local newspaper that they had closed a brothel created to service Mexican men. Contained in the brothel were 12 year old girls. These girls were virgins when they starting being sold... and their first time came at quite a huge price tag... but they show up with their dollars greedily handing them over for the fortunate position of 'being the first'.

 

Tell me how far this is from the African situation? Not much.

 

Oh well. I suppose the naysayers will comment that these are 'bad people' but then attempt to compartmentalize this situation so that they can avoid ever really examining what propels abominations such as this. To the dudes patronizing the brothel they do not give two shakes if she is a 12 year old virgin drugged into entertaining them... to them she is there to serve their purpose.

 

How many purposes can men and women serve one another without this becoming nothing more than the degradation of the self and others?

 

All of this is horrible, but what the hell does it have to do with porn?

[AAlike]

You have asked some thoughtful questions and I would like to thoughtfully answer them. Before addressing the questions, I was wondering if I could ask this of you first...

 

Is it a desire to orgasm or is there a desire for sexual intimacy?

 

well, when I am masturbating or watching porn, obviously only the former.

 

when I am with my GF, obviously both.

[Jersey Shortie]

lol.. then WHAT is the freaking problem? Betrayal? For looking at another snatch and another nice rack? Oh, please.

 

Earth to JS (the one who doesn't even WATCH porn), people don't watch porn and imagine they're having sex with the actors.. they watch people having sex with each other and get aroused. The SAME exact way that they show a quick sex scene in a rated R movie. You aren't imagining having sex with the actors.. but you might get turned on. Simple as that.

 

He ISN'T cheating by LOOKING. Get over it.

 

I find it hard to take you seriously Miss Independent. One moment you are claiming you dont read my posts and blah blah blah, next your commenting on them. I suspect you take bits and pieces but don't really do much more then that. Which is fine. But don't then comment on half information.

 

You think there are millions of pretty hot women taking their clothes off and men with partners aren't thinking what it woudl be like with a girl that catches their fancy? I think you're the one that isn't on Earth if you really believe that. And if you really did read my post, you would see that I didn't say it was cheating. Don't worry Miss. Independent. i am sure you will follow up with a jab about how long winded they are. Which they are. But that makes you look worse commenting on a post you didn't completely read.

[Vet]

I find it hard to take you seriously Miss Independent. One moment you are claiming you dont read my posts and blah blah blah, next your commenting on them. I suspect you take bits and pieces but don't really do much more then that. Which is fine. But don't then comment on half information.

 

You think there are millions of pretty hot women taking their clothes off and men with partners aren't thinking what it woudl be like with a girl that catches their fancy? I think you're the one that isn't on Earth if you really believe that. And if you really did read my post, you would see that I didn't say it was cheating. Don't worry Miss. Independent. i am sure you will follow up with a jab about how long winded they are. Which they are. But that makes you look worse commenting on a post you didn't completely read.

 

I'm so glad you know more about being a man than men.

[Gamine]

All of this is horrible, but what the hell does it have to do with porn?

 

Porn is an industry whose foundation is built on tears.

 

It has everything to do with porn. Stand back and remove the usefulness you have attached to it. Perhaps read the post I shared concerning the regret of the woman who appeared in videos and pics. This was met with an "I don't give a crap" mentality..."hey she did the deed, got paid, so WTF". You are a very intelligent man. Look deeply.

[AlektraClementine]

 

Lastly, what I don’t think men understand about women is that just about all women want to feel and be seen as beautiful. Being beautiful is what being female is about. 99% of women will not deny that. From age 5-100. This is why little girls play dress up. And young women are worried about labels and getting fat and older women feel hurt when the men they love are looking at porn of 20 year olds. A woman wants to be celebrated in her beauty. That actress on screen is on screen because she wants to feel beautiful, celebrated and special. Your woman at home, her needs aren’t any different. When a man gives his very male attention and focus on a woman, so much so that he finds her so attractive that he uses her for the most primal of experiences, it sends a huge message to your woman about the sexual availability you feel to other women. The pull, the attraction. Couple in the billion messages that women receive about how they aren’t beautiful enough, the messages they get from their men from their men themselves when he is clearly getting turned on by a woman that doesn’t look like her, and knowing how easily men evaluate and judge a woman’s body, and the pressure piles up. In all honest, how do men expect women to feel when men make it a point to say how they like a nice body, and how hot this girl is or that, and their own woman knowing they don’t live up to his ideals but he still expects her to feel sexy when she knows that he is more pleased by the sight of other women? Isn’t that a contradiction?

 

The woman on screen has billion of men lusting after her. Why does the one guy that we want to think of us as beautiful and feminine have to be one of the billion lusting after a woman that wouldn’t let lick her shoe. We aren’t asking for validation from millions of men. We ask for one man. And too often that one man is too often too eager to seek out validating the femininity of other women.

 

 

 

 

Jersie and I do not agree on the porn issue. But, I really dig what she said here and can totally concur. Men, this is good stuff and you'd do well to at least think on it for a minute or two.

[GorillaTheater]

Jersie and I do not agree on the porn issue. But, I really dig what she said here and can totally concur. Men, this is good stuff and you'd do well to at least think on it for a minute or two.

 

Absolutely. And that's why I make sure I do what I can to ensure that my wife feels beautiful and knows that I think that she is.

 

The problem I have with Jersey is that I strongly suspect that she doesn't believe that I or any other man would do this. I can't imagine I'm in that slim of a minority as far as how men treat women.

[AlektraClementine]

Absolutely. And that's why I make sure I do what I can to ensure that my wife feels beautiful and knows that I think that she is.

 

The problem I have with Jersey is that I strongly suspect that she doesn't believe that I or any other man would do this. I can't imagine I'm in that slim of a minority as far as how men treat women.

 

All the BS aside (i.e. the thread I posted today), My fiance does a really good job at this, too. Yes, he watches porn (so do I) and yes, he thinks certain celebs are hotties but I've never gone a day questioning that I'm the most beautiful and sought after woman in his life. He got an A+ in Complimenting His Woman 101.

[Gamine]

well, when I am masturbating or watching porn, obviously only the former.

 

when I am with my GF, obviously both.

 

 

In all trials in our judicial system our objective is to get at the FACTS and then to the MENS REA (the state of mind/heart) and to weigh the two. Someone can hit a small child with an automobile and kill the child. There is a devastated family and a child who is no longer alive. A fact. A murderer kills a child with his bare hands. A child is no longer alive. A fact.

 

Do the ends justify the means?

 

Do we cheapen ourselves and give away pieces of ourselves believing that what is really going on here is a bodily function? Hunger is a bodily function. Some have insatiable appetites.

 

I look at jerking off as a bodily function.

 

When you think of sex and it isn't with your partner regardless of how you got there... ask yourself in your heart what you are doing and why... beyond just the bodily function. Are you tied to your girlfriend intimately and exclusively? If you are, then becoming aroused by an accidental boob flash in a movie, or the woman with a good body part at the grocery store and gratifying yourself perhaps shouldn't be at the core of your question.

 

Would it matter to me that my husband saw another woman at the store, got turned on and came home to have sex with me? Of course it would. I'd be grossed out and pissed off by it. Why would I want to make love to a man who wasn't really there for me? Relationships have their bonuses but sexual surrogacy shouldn't be one of them we ask of our partner.

 

I'm a hard liner in my posts because it takes thought in order to deconstruct our thoughts and it takes focus to understand the thoughts that propel seemingly innocuous behavior.

 

Sex can exist as a bodily function. Or, sex may have nothing to do with a bodily function. It may be the totality of what the man and woman give to one another.

 

A shallow gain is winning the lottery. Fun, yes.

 

A gain of depth is developing a new invention that makes you millions.

 

Thrill seeking versus true depth and gratification.

 

I have answered your questions without line iteming them...

 

Does this make any sense to you?

[Vet]

Porn is an industry whose foundation is built on tears.

 

It has everything to do with porn. Stand back and remove the usefulness you have attached to it. Perhaps read the post I shared concerning the regret of the woman who appeared in videos and pics. This was met with an "I don't give a crap" mentality..."hey she did the deed, got paid, so WTF". You are a very intelligent man. Look deeply.

 

It has nothing to do with porn; you're only trying to tie it to these atrocities to strengthen your stance against pornography. Genocide destroys women's lives too, so that means porn is bad too? This is guilt by association, a logical fallacy, at its heart. Come on, why can't we have a rational, intellectual debate on this subject--porn--without bringing in everything from Nazi Germany to underage brothels? It makes you guys' side look bad.

 

As far as your anecdote about the woman that did porn and then regretted it, I'll reiterate what I said when you first posted it: she always had a different choice than to make porn, but she didn't. She went down the path of least resistance. I don't disagree that women have a very unfair disadvantage when it comes to finding gainful employment, but to say that she only had the choice of doing porn or starving is disingenuous, and it insults every woman that had that choice and didn't do it. She made her choices in her life, and she must live with them. Why do you denigrate women (and this woman in particular) in robbing them of their own personal responsibility?

[Jersey Shortie]

Absolutely. And that's why I make sure I do what I can to ensure that my wife feels beautiful and knows that I think that she is.

 

The problem I have with Jersey is that I strongly suspect that she doesn't believe that I or any other man would do this. I can't imagine I'm in that slim of a minority as far as how men treat women.

 

 

It's not that I don't believe that men don't try to do it. But I imagine it's much like sex for men. Women need it consistantly and sincerely. I imagine just like there is a drought for sex sometimes in relationships, considering the amount of men that complain about the lack of sex they don't get, I am sure there is a drought for men to affirm women in the way they need as well. So maybe you are the slim or the minority of men. If you believe that more men are not getting the sex they need, they be sure to believe that women are not getting the affirmation they need as well. And when you hear men say things like "but I am visual" and " of course I am goging to ogle 20 year olds" or even "but I love you for your kind heart". You might as well tell your woman that you don't find her has feminine as you do other prospects. It's great to value your woman for her kind heart but that is not the thing that is going to create deep passion. Just like how she loves that you pay the bills on time won't. Its a good trait but goes along way from making a woman feel like a woman.

[Thaddeus]

Despite the shrill tone of some of the anti-porn crusaders here, the foundation of their argument is actually sound if you draw a straight line between misogyny and porn.

 

Personally, I don't think that's logically consistent but I can certainly understand why some might think that.

 

Where the argument starts to come off the rails is the concept that thinking about someone else while in bed with your partner is a result of porn and is somehow disrespectful to the other party.

 

That's simply fantasy and isn't disrespectful in the least. It's as if it's disrespectful to, for instance, role-play or engage in other acts done of mutual consent.

 

It's also a simple fact that a lot of porn is actually created, produced and directed by women. Does that make those women misogynist? Even the Playboy empire was headed by a woman (Christie Hefner) for two decades, a tremendously strong and capable woman who refers to herself as both a feminist and activist.

[AAlike]

Oh, really now. It seems you are now representing the deep down truths and motivations of every single solitary MAN and woman. You are a woman. You have absolutely no capacity to speak for a man, let me tell you... you do not have a clue. Guys DO PUT THEMSELVES INTO THE SCENE... maybe not ALL GUYS... BUT THEY MOST DEFINITELY DO.... I'VE ASKED. THEY ANSWERED. THAT IS THE THRILL. Some may just use porn to start thinking about sex... but for heaven's sake. Given the posts I have read it doesn't seem that dudes require ANY HELP in that arena.

 

You are projecting your situation. At least JS and others posting here... including myself... have not only projected but have also educated ourselves.

 

this thread is littered with women drawing inferences based on their interpretation of male sexuality - having the shoe on the other foot one time should be permissable!!

 

this is kind of a slippery slope to head down, because I think it's really just a battle of semantics/minutiae that is going to blow out of proportion.

 

yes, to some degree, the thrill of porn is garnered from "putting yourself in the situation"...but why wouldn't it be? I mean, that's the case with all other movies, right? Horror movies are made to elicit a reaction of terror by providing an avenue where you can "put yourself in the scene" - action movies are made to elicit a reaction of being adrenalized by providing an avenue where you can "put yourself in the scene"...and porn movies, well, you guessed it, they are made to elicit a reaction of lust by doing the same thing. it's certainly no substitute for, or really anything reminiscent of real sex. porn replicates real sex about as much as watching a Bruce Lee movie resembles actual fighting.

 

as for porn having "pretty" people...well, that is hardly a porn-unique phenomenon. Pretty much all media of any type is dominated by fabricated, surgically enhanced people - they're used to sell pretty much everything. I mean people actually VOTE ON WORLD LEADERS based on visual aesthetics. in fact, I'd say that you probably have more of a chance of finding a "normal" looking person in porn than you would most other avenues of media. do I see how this could be and is difficult for both genders, and probably more so for women? absolutely. but porn is neither the cause nor the effect of this.

[Gamine]

It has nothing to do with porn; you're only trying to tie it to these atrocities to strengthen your stance against pornography. Genocide destroys women's lives too, so that means porn is bad too? This is guilt by association, a logical fallacy, at its heart. Come on, why can't we have a rational, intellectual debate on this subject--porn--without bringing in everything from Nazi Germany to underage brothels? It makes you guys' side look bad.

 

As far as your anecdote about the woman that did porn and then regretted it, I'll reiterate what I said when you first posted it: she always had a different choice than to make porn, but she didn't. She went down the path of least resistance. I don't disagree that women have a very unfair disadvantage when it comes to finding gainful employment, but to say that she only had the choice of doing porn or starving is disingenuous, and it insults every woman that had that choice and didn't do it. She made her choices in her life, and she must live with them. Why do you denigrate women (and this woman in particular) in robbing them of their own personal responsibility?

 

The fallacy here is that I have a 'side'. I'm not trying to convert anyone to any way of thinking. I thought we were having an exchange.

 

When I eat a chicken or a piece of beef at least I'm honest about where it comes from and what I'm doing. Same thing. No excuses. I don't pretend anything nor do I devalue the life of the animal stating that 'that is what they're here for'.

 

There is no flaw in the intellectualizing of this issue, merely an obstructative injection of the self that gets in the way.

 

I personally don't care two shakes over the women who've decided to win at the game of life... They accept it and profit from it. Don't confuse opportunism with soundness. And, don't confuse societal or gender 'agreement' for what's right or wrong.

 

Personally porn isn't in my life but that doesn't mean that because it isn't that I have some cavalier concept of changing the world. I view this as a forum for the thinker. And, I am a thinker. I see the commonality between the whole of life and the societal/cultural expressions of right and wrong that are ever shifting and changing. Underneath all of the progression in anything, underneath all of the tolerance... there is an origin. And to get at the truth of a thing it is sometimes wise to strip away all of the tolerance and 'agreement' to see the thing for what it is.