Porn

[Gamine]

Sorry, I just don't buy your absolutism. You've extrapolated your stance from a definition we will work with ("one to one"), and while that extrapolation might be the way you live your life (and kudos to you for it), it's not the absolute truth you proclaim. One to one can be (and is) maintained when pornography is added to the picture. I actually find using pornography much more conducive to this than a person masturbating to a sexual fantasy of a coworker or someone they know in real life, and I hope you do too.

 

I'll ask you the same question I asked JerseyShortie, not because I wish to best you in any sort of verbal exchange, but I am genuinely curious. I know you expect your man not to look at pornography, but do you expect him to never have another sexual thought of another person? Would that be considered "cheating" to you? It seems like you have a very rigid definition of fidelity, one that would be very difficult for any person to live up to. Maybe I'm wrong though, and your only problem is with porn itself. If that's the case, would you have a problem with your man masturbating to erotica and written words? Would you have a problem with your man masturbating to cartoon pornography or even porn that was completely computer generated, but looked the exact same as the porn we have now?

 

 

Before I get into answering your questions, I'd like to ask you several.

 

Would you consider a Priest who watches pornography and masturbates to it maintaining his vow of celibacy?

 

How do you reconcile "thought, word, and deed" in the spectrum of action? Is thought an action? Is word and action? Is deed an action?

[Jersey Shortie]

There is so much bs piling up in this thread it's hard to disconcern the key points. I will say Utterer of Lies, I am not going to go point to point with you anymore. Because I don't really see how anything you really attempted to discuss had anything to do with my comments. Alot of it was glib comments and assumptions on my relationships and tangents that have nothing to do with the topics.

 

Miss Independent. I have addressed the issue of women who view porn many times. Everytime I address you, you come forward with your fist in the air saying I didn't. This isn't because I didn't address it. It's because you don't like my answers.

 

I don't want to keep adding to the dog pile on you, but it seems like your issue isn't with the pornography. Sure, you don't like it, and that is perfectly fine and understandable (for all the reasons you just mentioned). However, it doesn't sound like you're angry at the porn. It sounds like you're angry at men and you're focusing on the porn.

 

Did I not just previously say that that wasn't the case? I am completely baffled by your insistence to say what my problem is when I have gone into detail to explain what my problem is. And despite the facts I give you, you continue to insist on an untruth about *me*. I don't even think your argument makes any sense. Telling me my issue is porn not men? No. My issue is how porn treats and respersents men and how men abuse porn but try to make it seem like their really great guys that deserve to be respected for it. Women would have more respect for men if they really were men and not buying weakly into themselves to enjoy porn.

 

 

It seems like you think that A) all men watch porn and B) porn is degrading to women, ergo C) all men degrade women. Is that a correct assumption? I know you'll stop me and say that you don't think it's ALL men, but be honest: you think those that don't are in the extreme vast majority, right?

 

No, I don't think that. I think that most men watch porn. I think all porn is degrading to women on some level. And I think that men are okay with degrading women and using them behind closed doors if it's for their own pleasure first. I question their ability to respect women as a whole if they can do that when they have women in their lives themselves. I think maybe the only reason men might respect the woman in their lives is because of their association with him. Not because he has a great big respect for women in general. If we treated any social group or ethnic group in the same manner we great women, there would be world outrage. But because this is a gender issue, it's like it's okay. Could you imagine taking the entire Jewish Population and putting them in the situations that alot of porn girls are put into? Holy Cow, there would be mass histeria.

 

To give you a personal anecdote: I view porn regularly, and without getting too detailed, I like the kind that doesn't features women who look like they just dropped out of high school, don't look like they're drug addled and abused, and don't look like they're enjoying it at all. Unfortunately for every party involved this is who it seems like the porn industry churns out. I think this is changing a lot though; people don't like this. I don't like feeling like I'm contributing to someone else's misery, and there are a lot of men just like me that agree with this.

 

You even admit that the type of stuff that gets churned out is pretty degrading to women, the majority of stuff. What does that say about men? The fact that there was a demand for it. So some men, like yourself, don't like feeling like the are contributing to the misery of pornstarletts. But at the same time they will go to great lengths to conceal their porn habits, even at the cost of their female partners or defend it. Talk about priorities being wacky.

 

However, I also fully realize what I'm doing is objectifying the people involved (men included in that because they're victims of this too--they're just a penis to "fill the holes and cute face" to use a crude phrase). I don't care about their needs, desires, and personal aspirations. They're just a couple of meatbags having sex. The reasons for why this is sexually arousing to me are so deeply entrenched in the patriarchal society that is the world we live in, which is the root of the problem that we're discussing.

 

That's just it. We do live in a patriarchal society and as a woman, it's discouraging. At least you admit it. Most men don't even do that. It would be nice to feel like the men in our own lives cared enough about us to not treat women according to a patriachal society or wouldn't want to treat women like "meatbags". An freaking highly disturbing term. As for men being objectifyed in porn. Well since most porn is made by men for men and most men aren't even paying attention to the men, I think it's safe to say that the level of objectifying of women is ten times that of men. Not saying it doesn't happen but it's more the case that the women is being objectified. His looks aren't as important, his role is to "put her in her place"...so on. He is the one shown with the power more times then not. Again, do men really not understand how difficult all this is for women?

 

YOU even made comments to the patriachal society. Can men not understand what it is like for us women living in that type of world? Do men not care or want to understand or is a man's desire to put women in their place more imprtant then wanting to understand us? It's almost like your saying "yeap it's a patriachal society and while I love my wife I need my porn and women are just going to have to struggle through it because my needs are important".

 

Entire theses have been written on this, and we're all prisoners of the patriarchal society:

 

No, you are not a prisoner of anything. You're a man and are capable of making choices that don't contribute to the demise and abuse of women. Please don't pretend that a society that favors you and your needs over women somehow means you have the same struggles as a woman. If men were more concered about respecting themselves, using self control, they would have the respect of women in legions. But men rather cater to their desires, shrug their shoulders and blame it on the very society they as men contribute to. Ridiculous that you sit there and say men are prisoners of their own society they created to make things better for them and harder on women. Men have no clue what it's like beign a woman and how hard it is for us. Society isn't nice to women. Men aren't either sometimes and that is clearly illustrated in porn.

 

Our society is moving towards one that does not "otherize" women and includes them as equals. We are not there yet (and probably won't be in any of our lifetimes), but we will get there eventually.

 

In the mean time men will keep wanking it off to porn. Women will keep tring to fullfill an expectations of beauty so they can feel like a man might care for them and men can bop along happy as can be failing to make any effort at all to help women or maybe be part of the solution, not the problem.

 

She sees it as being totally divorced from our relationship, which it is. It doesn't effect our sex life in any regard (which is fantastic by the way).

 

It's fantastic for you because you get everything you want and women get to be second class citizens. And that's how it feels for many women. Men can have porn, they can have the real woman and both give to him different and both seem just as important. As a woman it's like your second class citizen. especially in the face of all the variety that has become a regular stable for men to consume in the name of "visual" importance. Again, priorities.

 

In closing, I am not defending porn, because I think it's an unfortunate result of our society, but I am trying to get you to understand the other side and stop being so angry about this topic. I don't think it's worth your energy. There are a lot of guys out there that both view it and respect women; they aren't mutually exclusive.

 

You might not be defending porn but you are defending your right to use it at the expense of women. And then turn around and blame your choices on some phatom like you are completely independent and not contributing to the problem.

[Vet]

Before I get into answering your questions, I'd like to ask you several.

 

Would you consider a Priest who watches pornography and masturbates to it maintaining his vow of celibacy?

 

How do you reconcile "thought, word, and deed" in the spectrum of action? Is thought an action? Is word and action? Is deed an action?

 

My personal problems with religion and the forcing of men to remain sexless (or at least hide and repress their sexuality) aside, I would consider a Priest who watches pornography not to be adhering to the set of principles he has devoted his life to. However, this doesn't really have any relevance to the topic: the priesthood maintains celibacy in all sexuality, so to go against that would be going against the doctrine. On the other hand, marriage (at least not mine, maybe yours) doesn't hold this doctrine of repressing my sexuality, nor would my wife want me to. Our bond is between ourselves and no one else. There is definite trust that we are not having extra-marital relationships, but we are rational enough to realize that we aren't each other's thought police.

 

Actions are actions. Thoughts are thoughts. Trust is trust. Cheating in my eyes is doing anything that my wife would think less of me for. Cheating is doing anything I would want to keep from her.

 

I hope that answers your questions. If not, I will attempt to reiterate.

[Vet]

There is so much bs piling up in this thread it's hard to disconcern the key points. I will say Utterer of Lies, I am not going to go point to point with you anymore. Because I don't really see how anything you really attempted to discuss had anything to do with my comments. Alot of it was glib comments and assumptions on my relationships and tangents that have nothing to do with the topics.

 

Miss Independent. I have addressed the issue of women who view porn many times. Everytime I address you, you come forward with your fist in the air saying I didn't. This isn't because I didn't address it. It's because you don't like my answers.

 

 

 

Did I not just previously say that that wasn't the case? I am completely baffled by your insistence to say what my problem is when I have gone into detail to explain what my problem is. And despite the facts I give you, you continue to insist on an untruth about *me*. I don't even think your argument makes any sense. Telling me my issue is porn not men? No. My issue is how porn treats and respersents men and how men abuse porn but try to make it seem like their really great guys that deserve to be respected for it. Women would have more respect for men if they really were men and not buying weakly into themselves to enjoy porn.

 

 

 

 

No, I don't think that. I think that most men watch porn. I think all porn is degrading to women on some level. And I think that men are okay with degrading women and using them behind closed doors if it's for their own pleasure first. I question their ability to respect women as a whole if they can do that when they have women in their lives themselves. I think maybe the only reason men might respect the woman in their lives is because of their association with him. Not because he has a great big respect for women in general. If we treated any social group or ethnic group in the same manner we great women, there would be world outrage. But because this is a gender issue, it's like it's okay. Could you imagine taking the entire Jewish Population and putting them in the situations that alot of porn girls are put into? Holy Cow, there would be mass histeria.

 

 

 

You even admit that the type of stuff that gets churned out is pretty degrading to women, the majority of stuff. What does that say about men? The fact that there was a demand for it. So some men, like yourself, don't like feeling like the are contributing to the misery of pornstarletts. But at the same time they will go to great lengths to conceal their porn habits, even at the cost of their female partners or defend it. Talk about priorities being wacky.

 

 

 

That's just it. We do live in a patriarchal society and as a woman, it's discouraging. At least you admit it. Most men don't even do that. It would be nice to feel like the men in our own lives cared enough about us to not treat women according to a patriachal society or wouldn't want to treat women like "meatbags". An freaking highly disturbing term. As for men being objectifyed in porn. Well since most porn is made by men for men and most men aren't even paying attention to the men, I think it's safe to say that the level of objectifying of women is ten times that of men. Not saying it doesn't happen but it's more the case that the women is being objectified. His looks aren't as important, his role is to "put her in her place"...so on. He is the one shown with the power more times then not. Again, do men really not understand how difficult all this is for women?

 

YOU even made comments to the patriachal society. Can men not understand what it is like for us women living in that type of world? Do men not care or want to understand or is a man's desire to put women in their place more imprtant then wanting to understand us? It's almost like your saying "yeap it's a patriachal society and while I love my wife I need my porn and women are just going to have to struggle through it because my needs are important".

 

 

 

No, you are not a prisoner of anything. You're a man and are capable of making choices that don't contribute to the demise and abuse of women. Please don't pretend that a society that favors you and your needs over women somehow means you have the same struggles as a woman. If men were more concered about respecting themselves, using self control, they would have the respect of women in legions. But men rather cater to their desires, shrug their shoulders and blame it on the very society they as men contribute to. Ridiculous that you sit there and say men are prisoners of their own society they created to make things better for them and harder on women. Men have no clue what it's like beign a woman and how hard it is for us. Society isn't nice to women. Men aren't either sometimes and that is clearly illustrated in porn.

 

 

 

In the mean time men will keep wanking it off to porn. Women will keep tring to fullfill an expectations of beauty so they can feel like a man might care for them and men can bop along happy as can be failing to make any effort at all to help women or maybe be part of the solution, not the problem.

 

 

 

It's fantastic for you because you get everything you want and women get to be second class citizens. And that's how it feels for many women. Men can have porn, they can have the real woman and both give to him different and both seem just as important. As a woman it's like your second class citizen. especially in the face of all the variety that has become a regular stable for men to consume in the name of "visual" importance. Again, priorities.

 

 

 

You might not be defending porn but you are defending your right to use it at the expense of women. And then turn around and blame your choices on some phatom like you are completely independent and not contributing to the problem.

 

Sorry Jersey. I hope you don't take offense, but it just doesn't sound like I'm able to engage you in a rational, intellectual conversation on this topic. I wish you could read your posts with an objective stance, because they come off as so, so angry.

[Jersey Shortie]

Sorry Jersey. I hope you don't take offense, but it just doesn't sound like I'm able to engage you in a rational, intellectual conversation on this topic. I wish you could read your posts with an objective stance, because they come off as so, so angry.

 

While my posts on this subject are rather viotile, I do take offense that you are basically telling me that my points are not rational just because you disagree with what is being said. I never said anything so demeaning to you about your points. I disagree with them but I do not consider them completely unintellictual and I don't think my points are unintellectual either.

[Gamine]

My personal problems with religion and the forcing of men to remain sexless (or at least hide and repress their sexuality) aside, I would consider a Priest who watches pornography not to be adhering to the set of principles he has devoted his life to. However, this doesn't really have any relevance to the topic: the priesthood maintains celibacy in all sexuality, so to go against that would be going against the doctrine. On the other hand, marriage (at least not mine, maybe yours) doesn't hold this doctrine of repressing my sexuality, nor would my wife want me to. Our bond is between ourselves and no one else. There is definite trust that we are not having extra-marital relationships, but we are rational enough to realize that we aren't each other's thought police.

 

Actions are actions. Thoughts are thoughts. Trust is trust. Cheating in my eyes is doing anything that my wife would think less of me for. Cheating is doing anything I would want to keep from her.

 

I hope that answers your questions. If not, I will attempt to reiterate.

 

Now, your assessment of the priest is the same as my own. I extend that same covenant of celibacy in its absoluteness to that of monogamy. For to have someone desire in their mind's eye to wish to venture off... to 'make believe' they are having sex with them is, in the truest sense, no different than the priest. It is a desire to be somewhere else. It is a virtual reality. Those who participated in virtual reality (if you will recall) had rewired their brains... and their minds were incapable of distinguishing truth from falsehood... what happened or didn't actually happen. Because it still happens physiologically.

 

It isn't about crushing desire. Its about where the desire is directed. If desire is directed to another person and the thoughts, lust, desire all exist in the mind and body... and the thinker morphs it to a 'virtual reality' by taking care of themselves... while they have not had sex with flesh and blood (just themselves and a 2d image), they certainly desire it. And the whole masturbation thing becomes merely a technicality. It is the state of the heart, not self control or repression.

 

In my marriage I don't seek to repress my husband's sexuality. I simply ask that it be directed to me.

 

Why does one require a sexual outlet if their relationship is so fulfilling? It suggests, by inference, that the relationship is not fulfilling and is not satisfying. It makes one wonder if there was no repression of sexuality in a marriage/relationship then why can't these fantasies and desires be openly expressed with your partner?

 

Then, of course, it can get down to variety. Which takes me back to the logical illustration concerning the priest.

[Vet]

While my posts on this subject are rather viotile, I do take offense that you are basically telling me that my points are not rational just because you disagree with what is being said. I never said anything so demeaning to you about your points. I disagree with them but I do not consider them completely unintellictual and I don't think my points are unintellectual either.

 

Your points, valid though they may be, are tainted by your vitriol. I can't and won't converse with you further on this topic. Also, to clarify, I think you misunderstood what I said. I said I can't have a rational, intellectual conversation with you; not that your points are without intellect (because they aren't). However, the points you do have are lost in the rage, and I have problems discerning them. Therefore, we are at an impasse.

[Teslacoil]

For to have someone desire in their mind's eye to wish to venture off... to 'make believe' they are having sex with them is, in the truest sense, no different than the priest. It is a desire to be somewhere else. It is a virtual reality. Those who participated in virtual reality (if you will recall) had rewired their brains... and their minds were incapable of distinguishing truth from falsehood... what happened or didn't actually happen. Because it still happens physiologically.

 

And the whole masturbation thing becomes merely a technicality. It is the state of the heart, not self control or repression.

 

In my marriage I don't seek to repress my husband's sexuality. I simply ask that it be directed to me.

 

So now we get to the crux of the matter, at least for you. You basically oppose any kind of fantasy whatsoever which is not directed at your partner. Unless you're a nun, I'd really be surprised if you've attained this level of thought-perfection yourself. If you have, well congratulations I suppose.

 

I'm not quite able to reconcile that with why porn would be an issue for you if not in a committed relationship.

 

Just my opinion, but I think you've setup a standard of the heart and mind which can't be attained by most humans.

 

Even priests look at women. That's why they used to whip themselves in their chambers and confess their sins to the bishops, etc.

[Vet]

Now, your assessment of the priest is the same as my own. I extend that same covenant of celibacy in its absoluteness to that of monogamy. For to have someone desire in their mind's eye to wish to venture off... to 'make believe' they are having sex with them is, in the truest sense, no different than the priest. It is a desire to be somewhere else. It is a virtual reality. Those who participated in virtual reality (if you will recall) had rewired their brains... and their minds were incapable of distinguishing truth from falsehood... what happened or didn't actually happen. Because it still happens physiologically.

 

It isn't about crushing desire. Its about where the desire is directed. If desire is directed to another person and the thoughts, lust, desire all exist in the mind and body... and the thinker morphs it to a 'virtual reality' by taking care of themselves... while they have not had sex with flesh and blood (just themselves and a 2d image), they certainly desire it. And the whole masturbation thing becomes merely a technicality. It is the state of the heart, not self control or repression.

 

In my marriage I don't seek to repress my husband's sexuality. I simply ask that it be directed to me.

 

Why does one require a sexual outlet if their relationship is so fulfilling? It suggests, by inference, that the relationship is not fulfilling and is not satisfying. It makes one wonder if there was no repression of sexuality in a marriage/relationship then why can't these fantasies and desires be openly expressed with your partner?

 

Then, of course, it can get down to variety. Which takes me back to the logical illustration concerning the priest.

 

I just can't agree with your correlation between that the celibacy of the priesthood is and all marriages. While your marriage may require a similar "celibacy" of your husband (in that you are the focus of his entire sexuality), that's not an absolutism of all marriages, and the lack thereof in another relationship is not an indication of infidelity.

 

I think a lot of women are under the misconception that when men view pornography, they are visualizing and fantasizing themselves having sex with this person. That's not always the case; you were much closer when you attributed it to a kind of voyeurism.

 

Am I right in assuming that you've answered my previous questions with this response? Just to clarify, you believe that a person in a relationship should only be thinking (or directing) sexually about their partner, even if that thought is written or a generated image that is not of any real person. Is that correct?

 

I don't deign to know your husband, but if you were upfront about this issue when you got married and he agreed to only have sexual thoughts about you (and he is happy that way), then kudos for both of you. You've found something that works in your relationship. The key words are your relationship. Not mine. Not anyone else's.

 

You and I would clearly be incompatible, and that's not a bad thing; it just boils down to my personal philosophy on this subject: If you like porn, great. If you don't like porn, great. Be honest in your relationships with what you need to be happy. Find another person who you can stand and is compatible with your personal relationship philosophies, and be then be happy together. If you like porn, but your partner doesn't and you're willing to (honestly) forgo it, then change your beliefs and be with that person. If pornography becomes an obsession that is affecting your relationship, however, then it has become a problem just like any other thing that affects your relationship negatively.

 

Personally though, if I was dating a woman that told me I could only ever think of her ever again, my assumption of her would be that she's insecure and overly worried about my thoughts, and has trust issues. I wouldn't continue seeing her. I'm not saying this is you since I don't know you from Adam, but given those criteria, that's the conclusion I would come to.

[MissJoness]

In an effort to kill the George Sodini thread, I hereby suggest we start a good old, round and round we go again battle about the proper role of porn in committed relationships. Or in uncommitted ones. Or for single people. Or whatever.

 

You start.

I don't have any respect for men who regularly view porn. I just don't. Typically, men who view porn tend to be of the 'sleeze variety'.

[Vet]

I don't have any respect for men who regularly view porn. I just don't. Typically, men who view porn tend to be of the 'sleeze variety'.

 

Psst.. your dad does. Don't tell him I told you.

[MissJoness]

Psst.. your dad does. Don't tell him I told you.

 

My dad NEVER viewed porn. The reason I know is because I used to search my parents bedroom when tehy were not home from top to bottom, and never found any dirty magazines, videos or anything of that variety. My dad wasn't into that.

 

it seems that the guys of this generation are. And I avoid them with all costs. It's okay to look at it once in awhile, but to view it regularly--no thank you. Those men tend to be sleazy bottom of the gutter types and have no respect for women

[Vet]

My dad NEVER viewed porn. The reason I know is because I used to search my parents bedroom when tehy were not home from top to bottom, and never found any dirty magazines, videos or anything of that variety. My dad wasn't into that.

 

Methinks you're naive.

[MissJoness]

Methinks you're naive.

How is that so? I knew that house like the back of my hand, I've searched every part of their room, and every other room in the house. My parents never owned any porn, it wasn't their thing. Some people have reported seeing porn in their parents room, and things like that, but I never have and searched everywhere. Just because you are into that kind of thing doesn't mean you have to drag everyone else down with you

[Gamine]

I just can't agree with your correlation between that the celibacy of the priesthood is and all marriages. While your marriage may require a similar "celibacy" of your husband (in that you are the focus of his entire sexuality), that's not an absolutism of all marriages, and the lack thereof in another relationship is not an indication of infidelity.

 

I think a lot of women are under the misconception that when men view pornography, they are visualizing and fantasizing themselves having sex with this person. That's not always the case; you were much closer when you attributed it to a kind of voyeurism.

 

Am I right in assuming that you've answered my previous questions with this response? Just to clarify, you believe that a person in a relationship should only be thinking (or directing) sexually about their partner, even if that thought is written or a generated image that is not of any real person. Is that correct?

 

I don't deign to know your husband, but if you were upfront about this issue when you got married and he agreed to only have sexual thoughts about you (and he is happy that way), then kudos for both of you. You've found something that works in your relationship. The key words are your relationship. Not mine. Not anyone else's.

 

You and I would clearly be incompatible, and that's not a bad thing; it just boils down to my personal philosophy on this subject: If you like porn, great. If you don't like porn, great. Be honest in your relationships with what you need to be happy. Find another person who you can stand and is compatible with your personal relationship philosophies, and be then be happy together. If you like porn, but your partner doesn't and you're willing to (honestly) forgo it, then change your beliefs and be with that person. If pornography becomes an obsession that is affecting your relationship, however, then it has become a problem just like any other thing that affects your relationship negatively.

 

Personally though, if I was dating a woman that told me I could only ever think of her ever again, my assumption of her would be that she's insecure and overly worried about my thoughts, and has trust issues. I wouldn't continue seeing her. I'm not saying this is you since I don't know you from Adam, but given those criteria, that's the conclusion I would come to.

 

There was a woman on another thread who, due to severe personal hardships that included poverty, and a child... earned money in the porn industry. She appeared in video and obviously it was broadcasted on the internet. She also posed nude.

 

She shared how she had turned her life around, found a man who she love and who loved her. Out of fear of being chastised for her past, she withheld this information from her now husband. He used porn.

 

Now, he finds out about it and has a major melt down. The mother of his child doing these things? His wife? The guy flipped his lid and the sad things that she conveyed that were done and said were heartbreaking to say the least. But he uses porn.

 

This woman conveyed how she had wished she had never done it but that at the time she had no other way of providing for herself. She explained that she had to appear on screen to be enjoying it but cried on the drive home afterwards. Now, this woman no longer gives her consent. But she's been paid and the deed has been done. And men are masturbating to this guy's wife and the mother of his child.

 

Some of the porn stars have been very good at what they do and have amassed fortunes. Many of the women have not, however, and their images remain on the screen to be utilized by anyone who chooses to utilize it in whatever fashion they so desire.

 

Now, she is living in the present.. with a husband and a baby and has worked to turn her life around. So when we look at porn there must be some understanding that there may be men and women who did this out of desperation and who no longer give their consent. But they are powerless to object. They don't show you their remorse or tears... or shame.

 

But hey. It is there for enjoyment, right? So why not take advantage of it?

 

My husband knew of my view on porn prior to marriage, was dishonest about it, and did it anyway. And also cheated on me with a woman he knew before we got married. I have had a man sit in the other room transfixed at his computer doing in secrecy the very thing you describe. While I laid in bed. Since, he has been to a psychologist and while I won't get into what was going on psychologically, suffice to say unpleasant crap went down when he was a young boy and it screwed him up.

 

I understand that human beings are human beings. And by virtue of being human there are many desires, draws, impulses, and needs. And people reach to fill the needs in ways that seem to work to squelch the void or aspect of life left unfulfilled. Everyone wants to be loved.

 

I am not a zealot nor do I pretend that standards of absoluteness are something that anyone can attain. Including myself. However, I am brutally frank with myself and when I look upon things and choose to see them for what they are and own them.

 

The absolute is the benchmark for attaining and living in the highest truth. While variations on this truth is human, it doesn't alter the truth.

 

If I fantasize about another man, I've done it in my heart. I own it. I know that my heart and mind are the true reflection of who I am. What I do when no one is looking is who I am. I fool no one.

 

The truth in absoluteness may not be an ideal you hold as something you want to attain. However, if you were to remove all personal attachments to the variations of the absolute ... one can reach only one conclusion. That it isn't absolute. It is a version of absolute.

 

For some, marriages include other people. For them this is preserving their union. But again, a variation.

 

I'm as hopelessly flawed as every other person who walks the face of this earth. However, I am brutally honest with myself and I don't give myself much room to lie to myself. Am I pure? Hell no. But I strive to be pure of heart, anyway.

 

So porn... while entertainment for some, represents other things to others.

 

Did my stance on porn drive my husband to it? If I were a prude and didn't keep myself up and was an ice queen... maybe. If anything I am truthful. Should I live in a convent? I don't know. Perhaps I would be very happy there... but I need to take my collection of stilettos, lip gloss, and hair products. Oh, and I'd like to be able to have conjugal visits with my husband.

[Gamine]

I have a question for the men.

 

Would you be bothered if your wife or girlfriend was a porn star presently or in her past? What about a sister, mother, or daughter?

 

If so how? If not, why?

[Vet]

There was a woman on another thread who, due to severe personal hardships that included poverty, and a child... earned money in the porn industry. She appeared in video and obviously it was broadcasted on the internet. She also posed nude.

 

She shared how she had turned her life around, found a man who she love and who loved her. Out of fear of being chastised for her past, she withheld this information from her now husband. He used porn.

 

Now, he finds out about it and has a major melt down. The mother of his child doing these things? His wife? The guy flipped his lid and the sad things that she conveyed that were done and said were heartbreaking to say the least. But he uses porn.

 

This woman conveyed how she had wished she had never done it but that at the time she had no other way of providing for herself. She explained that she had to appear on screen to be enjoying it but cried on the drive home afterwards. Now, this woman no longer gives her consent. But she's been paid and the deed has been done. And men are masturbating to this guy's wife and the mother of his child.

 

Some of the porn stars have been very good at what they do and have amassed fortunes. Many of the women have not, however, and their images remain on the screen to be utilized by anyone who chooses to utilize it in whatever fashion they so desire.

 

Now, she is living in the present.. with a husband and a baby and has worked to turn her life around. So when we look at porn there must be some understanding that there may be men and women who did this out of desperation and who no longer give their consent. But they are powerless to object. They don't show you their remorse or tears... or shame.

 

But hey. It is there for enjoyment, right? So why not take advantage of it?

 

My husband knew of my view on porn prior to marriage, was dishonest about it, and did it anyway. And also cheated on me with a woman he knew before we got married. I have had a man sit in the other room transfixed at his computer doing in secrecy the very thing you describe. While I laid in bed. Since, he has been to a psychologist and while I won't get into what was going on psychologically, suffice to say unpleasant crap went down when he was a young boy and it screwed him up.

 

I understand that human beings are human beings. And by virtue of being human there are many desires, draws, impulses, and needs. And people reach to fill the needs in ways that seem to work to squelch the void or aspect of life left unfulfilled. Everyone wants to be loved.

 

I am not a zealot nor do I pretend that standards of absoluteness are something that anyone can attain. Including myself. However, I am brutally frank with myself and when I look upon things and choose to see them for what they are and own them.

 

The absolute is the benchmark for attaining and living in the highest truth. While variations on this truth is human, it doesn't alter the truth.

 

If I fantasize about another man, I've done it in my heart. I own it. I know that my heart and mind are the true reflection of who I am. What I do when no one is looking is who I am. I fool no one.

 

The truth in absoluteness may not be an ideal you hold as something you want to attain. However, if you were to remove all personal attachments to the variations of the absolute ... one can reach only one conclusion. That it isn't absolute. It is a version of absolute.

 

For some, marriages include other people. For them this is preserving their union. But again, a variation.

 

I'm as hopelessly flawed as every other person who walks the face of this earth. However, I am brutally honest with myself and I don't give myself much room to lie to myself. Am I pure? Hell no. But I strive to be pure of heart, anyway.

 

So porn... while entertainment for some, represents other things to others.

 

Did my stance on porn drive my husband to it? If I were a prude and didn't keep myself up and was an ice queen... maybe. If anything I am truthful. Should I live in a convent? I don't know. Perhaps I would be very happy there... but I need to take my collection of stilettos, lip gloss, and hair products. Oh, and I'd like to be able to have conjugal visits with my husband.

 

Unless she was a sex slave, she had more than one choice to be in the porn industry. She may not have had many choices, but she ended up choosing the path of least resistance, a fact that she will unfortunately have to live with for the rest of her life. It sounds like an experience she has probably learned a lot from, like that pictures that are propagated on the internet will last into perpetuity, lying to your spouse about important details can harm you relationship, and not having personal responsibility for your actions turns you into a victim. Nothing of this story has to do with what we were discussing though because I agree with you: the porn industry is morally reprehensible. Pornography has no universal moral quotient--it can either harm someone (like it did in your story) or it can be someone who is doing it with the full knowledge of actions and/or even enjoys it.

 

As to your personal story, I'm sorry that you were upfront about your feelings and your husband was dishonest, but it sounds like he has a lot of problems that extend past the viewing of pornography. If pornography magically didn't exist, he would have still lied and cheated on you.

 

You intimated previously that infidelity extended to thoughts. Do you feel that you cheated on your husband by fantasizing about other men?

[Vet]

I have a question for the men.

 

Would you be bothered if your wife or girlfriend was a porn star presently or in her past? What about a sister, mother, or daughter?

 

If so how? If not, why?

 

I wouldn't be upset if my wife was a porn star in her past as long as she was honest about it (it would be very weird to find your partner randomly online). I wouldn't be involved with someone that was doing it presently for a number of reasons.

 

Another relation, if she convinced me that she knew what she was getting into, wasn't being taken advantage of, and knew the ramifications of her actions, then I don't see any problem with it. I obviously wouldn't be thrilled to see it as a career my daughter chose, but if she met the above criteria and was happy with it, I could see myself being okay with it.

[Teslacoil]

The truth in absoluteness may not be an ideal you hold as something you want to attain. However, if you were to remove all personal attachments to the variations of the absolute ... one can reach only one conclusion. That it isn't absolute. It is a version of absolute.

 

Sorry I'm not following you at all. Are you trying to say that even though humans can't be perfect, we should all try and be perfect anyways?

 

I don't really think your porn star analogy works for me. Porn stars are actors. I know that the porn stars in films are acting out a scene. I know that is not who they really are. Underneath, they're real people, who I might or might not like in reality.

 

I might think Russell Crowe is a real jerk in real life. That doesn't mean I can't enjoy his movies. Same thing with porn stars. I really don't care what their personal lives are like. It's a fantasy.

 

There are plenty of good reasons to demonize porn, and the porn industry. As a consumer of porn, I'm well aware this makes me similar to a smoker criticizing the tobacco industry.

 

However, saying porn is bad because you're not allowed to fantasize about anything other than your partner just doesn't make sense in my opinion. Even if porn never existed men and women would still masturbate and fantasize about anything and everything, whether or not it involves their partners.

 

It's pretty cruel to hold your partner up to ANY standard that is impossible to meet... reminds me of some other posts on here that have lamented not wanting to be compared to the perfect bodies of models and porn stars... hmm.... interesting...

[Gamine]

Unless she was a sex slave, she had more than one choice to be in the porn industry. She may not have had many choices, but she ended up choosing the path of least resistance, a fact that she will unfortunately have to live with for the rest of her life. It sounds like an experience she has probably learned a lot from, like that pictures that are propagated on the internet will last into perpetuity, lying to your spouse about important details can harm you relationship, and not having personal responsibility for your actions turns you into a victim. Nothing of this story has to do with what we were discussing though because I agree with you: the porn industry is morally reprehensible. Pornography has no universal moral quotient--it can either harm someone (like it did in your story) or it can be someone who is doing it with the full knowledge of actions and/or even enjoys it.

 

As to your personal story, I'm sorry that you were upfront about your feelings and your husband was dishonest, but it sounds like he has a lot of problems that extend past the viewing of pornography. If pornography magically didn't exist, he would have still lied and cheated on you.

 

You intimated previously that infidelity extended to thoughts. Do you feel that you cheated on your husband by fantasizing about other men?

 

Thanks, Vet.

 

When holding my actions against the highest truth? Absolutely. It happens in my heart and mind. Two out of three (thought, word, deed) makes it real. That I haven't actually had sex with another man seems almost irrelevant at that point. I pause and ask myself a very pointed question... If this is something I am, in life, actually unwilling to do... then why pretend I am? I mean either I want to or I don't. And if held up to the light I examine it and realize that I don't sleep with the guy because I really don't want to... and probably wouldn't if I were single... so why waste my time? Who do I sleep with? That's the person who deserves my time. Not some guy who if, given the opportunity, I wouldn't do it with anyway. So I hit myself with 2x4's packed with reality and own my stuff. And I don't waste my sexual energy pretending to have sex with someone who if... they presented themselves and I was given absolution to do as I 'please' without repercussions I wouldn't be sexual with anyway. Why waste my sexual energy on a delusion... which is far from a fantasy I'd ever want to live out.

 

I'm just real with myself. I don't need to pretend that I am better than I am when it comes down to an analysis of 'me vs. me'. I am brutally realistic. If there comes a time in my life whereby I would answer 'yes' I would act on a 'make believe' sexual encounter... then I should be on my way and leave my husband out of it.

 

I don't believe in leaving crumbs of myself here and there. For me to want another man enough to fantasize ...well, suffice to say I should want him enough to actually do it. I am a very *hit or get off the pot person with regard to myself. I don't like being wishy washy about anything. I do it for real or not at all. If I have unmet needs I address them without self medicating even with escapism.

[Gamine]

Sorry I'm not following you at all. Are you trying to say that even though humans can't be perfect, we should all try and be perfect anyways?

 

I don't really think your porn star analogy works for me. Porn stars are actors. I know that the porn stars in films are acting out a scene. I know that is not who they really are. Underneath, they're real people, who I might or might not like in reality.

 

I might think Russell Crowe is a real jerk in real life. That doesn't mean I can't enjoy his movies. Same thing with porn stars. I really don't care what their personal lives are like. It's a fantasy.

 

There are plenty of good reasons to demonize porn, and the porn industry. As a consumer of porn, I'm well aware this makes me similar to a smoker criticizing the tobacco industry.

 

However, saying porn is bad because you're not allowed to fantasize about anything other than your partner just doesn't make sense in my opinion. Even if porn never existed men and women would still masturbate and fantasize about anything and everything, whether or not it involves their partners.

 

It's pretty cruel to hold your partner up to ANY standard that is impossible to meet... reminds me of some other posts on here that have lamented not wanting to be compared to the perfect bodies of models and porn stars... hmm.... interesting...

 

Even though we as humans are imperfect we should strive for perfection. If we fail we should try to succeed. If we lie we should endeavor not to lie again. Evolution of ourselves to be the best person we can be. Doing the kind, generous, and loving thing even when we don't have to.

 

I hold only myself to my standards. I hold those in my life to the standards they advocate they have. When two people with similar standards meet it can lead to harmony and the 'three legged race' that relationships can sometimes create ... become much smoother and rewarding for all concerned.

 

My partner does as he wishes with his life. And I do with my life as I wish. If his life takes him on another path then I wish him love and fulfillment. No one is a prisoner, especially not a mate.

 

If I come to a point in my life whereby I truly wish to be elsewhere I will. Until that time he has my undivided attention.

[snoopy girl]

all of this is so sad, i grew up with a mom and dad that watched porn behind closed doors, we knew as kids what went on when the doors was closed, my parents to this day will talk about some of the movies that they have seen, will ask me or my husband if we would like to see them.

weird, right! when i first got married i was open to it and enjoyed watching and looking at porn but as time went on it became an addiction for my husband and still is to this day. i feel like it my fault that it got as bad as it did, i never said anything to him about it, until it got under my skin, to much of anything can be bad at times no matter what it is, his just happened to be porn, then hard core, then nude bars, then massage parlors, then co-workers. the porn didn't help our marriage.. it hurt it. my husband let it get out of control and i know he feels bad, but he just cant stop. my parents are still watching porn and they are happy together and thats because my father didn't let it get out of control. so i say, porn is fun for those that can handle it and bad for those who can't. it will never go away and i feel sorry for those who get hurt by it. i have seen both sides of this topic, but until you live it you will not know how to feel.

[Teslacoil]

I hold only myself to my standards. I hold those in my life to the standards they advocate they have. When two people with similar standards meet it can lead to harmony and the 'three legged race' that relationships can sometimes create ... become much smoother and rewarding for all concerned.

 

My partner does as he wishes with his life. And I do with my life as I wish. If his life takes him on another path then I wish him love and fulfillment. No one is a prisoner, especially not a mate.

 

If I come to a point in my life whereby I truly wish to be elsewhere I will. Until that time he has my undivided attention.

 

Now see, all of this I completely agree with

 

I wouldn't say as humans we should strive for "perfection"... for me I suppose that notion is very subjective, and I probably couldn't point out "perfection" if it was staring at me in the face. Instead I would simply say we should strive to better ourselves and live the most fulfilling life possible.

[Gamine]

all of this is so sad, i grew up with a mom and dad that watched porn behind closed doors, we knew as kids what went on when the doors was closed, my parents to this day will talk about some of the movies that they have seen, will ask me or my husband if we would like to see them.

weird, right! when i first got married i was open to it and enjoyed watching and looking at porn but as time went on it became an addiction for my husband and still is to this day. i feel like it my fault that it got as bad as it did, i never said anything to him about it, until it got under my skin, to much of anything can be bad at times no matter what it is, his just happened to be porn, then hard core, then nude bars, then massage parlors, then co-workers. the porn didn't help our marriage.. it hurt it. my husband let it get out of control and i know he feels bad, but he just cant stop. my parents are still watching porn and they are happy together and thats because my father didn't let it get out of control. so i say, porn is fun for those that can handle it and bad for those who can't. it will never go away and i feel sorry for those who get hurt by it. i have seen both sides of this topic, but until you live it you will not know how to feel.

 

I'm sorry that your husband flipped out and that he hurt you. 'False Intimacy' is a tremendous lure for people who have sexual issues, or psychological/emotional issues with self esteem. As lame as it sounds it is true. It is sad, really. They keep Up'ing the ante hoping to finally fill up the well and find themselves further and further down into it. Thus is the dark expression of porn. It's ability to engage people's senses can do a number on someone whose senses are imbalanced... with propensities.

 

I don't get the whole 'couples' needing porn to get turned on though. Why the hell would I want to watch someone else having sex in order to want to have sex myself? This will always perplex me...

[Jersey Shortie]

Your points, valid though they may be, are tainted by your vitriol. I can't and won't converse with you further on this topic. Also, to clarify, I think you misunderstood what I said. I said I can't have a rational, intellectual conversation with you; not that your points are without intellect (because they aren't). However, the points you do have are lost in the rage, and I have problems discerning them. Therefore, we are at an impasse.

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If my points are valid, then why not focus on that? You can detuct enough about my points that they are valid and intellectual but you can't disconcern the words being said? How does that make sense.

 

Directly qouted from you : "...I'm able to engage you in a rational, intellectual conversation on this topic."

 

The insinuation in the above qoute is that you are being rational and intellectual and I am not. Then further above you change your tune a bit. You say you hope I am not offended but I am. Not because you disagree but because you keep demeaning opinion and seem to want to believe that you are rational and I am not. When I am infact every bit as rational.

 

 

I wish you could read your posts with an objective stance, because they come off as so, so angry.

 

I wish you could read your posts in an objective stance. The truth is that we are all tainted by our own personal experiences. I think you see the truth in my thoughs and are afraid to honestly approach them. You seem to go by the mentality thaty "Hey yes porn is demeaning to women but I still need to get one off so it's okay if I use it. My need to masturbate to women is far greater then not contributing to an industry that sucks the life out of women."