Thaddeus Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 Are men exempt from cleaning up their own crap? You act like women are little more than domestic servants who are supposed to cook, clean and then spread for a man just so they can have a roof over their head. How sad to be in a relationship where one person is considered to be so much lower than the other.No, of course not. You're reaching again and it's not doing your argument any good. I'm saying that intimacy should not be used as a bargaining chip. Link to post Share on other sites
Lizzie60 Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 I agree with this: I feel sorry for those men/women who try and find a reason for the lack of sex. I don't anymore. My wife's gone off me. She is having sex with me to keep the family together... We can do whatever we like, but sex will not return and what you get is pity sex... Sooo many couples live the same problem.. One thing I am absolutely SURE is that those women DO love their H very much.. it's just that sex is no longer important.. other stuff have taken its place (kids, etc.)... Libido is gone.. it's just that.. no other reason.. Link to post Share on other sites
GorillaTheater Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 The classic impasse. The man feels wholly rejected as a man and a person when his wife frequently refuses sex and intimacy, and the woman feels used and objectified by her husband's desire for sex and intimacy. And all too often, never the twain shall meet. No wonder so many marriages are screwed up. Link to post Share on other sites
Lizzie60 Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 tried to edit my post.. but it was too late.. to add: my point is There is not always a REASON.. sometimes the loss of libido is the only reason.. Link to post Share on other sites
Devil Inside Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 The classic impasse. The man feels wholly rejected as a man and a person when his wife frequently refuses sex and intimacy, and the woman feels used and objectified by her husband's desire for sex and intimacy. And all too often, never the twain shall meet. No wonder so many marriages are screwed up. Yeah I agree. I think this gridlock happens a lot. They need MC or this will end up in a bad place eventually. Link to post Share on other sites
Devil Inside Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 tried to edit my post.. but it was too late.. to add: my point is There is not always a REASON.. sometimes the loss of libido is the only reason.. That's true. However I would hope my partner would consult a medical professional in that case. Link to post Share on other sites
angie2443 Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 easily said, but when the love is not reciprocated and you are still in a marriage, what do you do? This sex thing, in my opinion, is a blown out of proportion. If sex dwindles, the reason is usually that the wife/husband has gone off the other half. Or the other half is not number 1 priority anymore. Children are. Or your midlife crisis, whatever. I just wish couple could be honest with each other. Like my wife said to me once, I still like you enough to have sex with you every now and then, but I would do without if I could... not a pleasant thing to hear, but at least she was being honest. I feel sorry for those men/women who try and find a reason for the lack of sex. I don't anymore. My wife's gone off me. She is having sex with me to keep the family together... We can do whatever we like, but sex will not return and what you get is pity sex... To say that we have to love our partners unconditionally is BS. Love has to reciprocated. If we - men - are not loved back - and that includes sex - is unfair to assume that the onus must be all on us... what about our needs and our need for love? Seems a one way street to me. You sound like a nice, decent man. I'm sorry for your situation. I think in your case, divorce might be the only answer. I think you mentioned you weren't going down that road before, but I actually think it would be better for your children to see both you and your wife in healthy relationships. I don't think you or your wife are in the wrong. I think you two just have two very different needs at this point. The best you can do now is be honest with each other and work out the situation so that both of you will be okay. Link to post Share on other sites
Lizzie60 Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 That's true. However I would hope my partner would consult a medical professional in that case. I know.. but then.. you got to be patient cause it could take years and years to find out exactly what is causing this loss of libido.. could be physical.. or maybe not. Link to post Share on other sites
Devil Inside Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 I know.. but then.. you got to be patient cause it could take years and years to find out exactly what is causing this loss of libido.. could be physical.. or maybe not. This is an example of where love is a verb not a noun. The partner would have to choose to be patient. It is easier to be patient if you know they are doing something about it. Link to post Share on other sites
angie2443 Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 The classic impasse. The man feels wholly rejected as a man and a person when his wife frequently refuses sex and intimacy, and the woman feels used and objectified by her husband's desire for sex and intimacy. And all too often, never the twain shall meet. No wonder so many marriages are screwed up. I don't think it's that women feel objectified by their husband's desire for sex and intimacy. I think they feel objectified when their husband's start thinking of their wives as just a hole to get off into. I'm sorry for bieng crude, but it comes through in these posts. Many of these men are not saying they want sex from their wives because they are their soul mates or are beautiful, intelligent, sexy, etc. Many of these men are saying that their wives owe them sex, because they (the men) cleaned a dish or gave them a rose. This sounds like sex for service (money, gifts). There is no connection or love in this. For the record, I never stopped having sex with my husband because I enjoyed the sex. The housework issue came up early on when I took on the title of "wife". It was a huge battle for us back then and that is why some of these posters on here anger me so much. Link to post Share on other sites
GorillaTheater Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 I don't think it's that women feel objectified by their husband's desire for sex and intimacy. I think they feel objectified when their husband's start thinking of their wives as just a hole to get off into. I'm sorry for bieng crude, but it comes through in these posts. Many of these men are not saying they want sex from their wives because they are their soul mates or are beautiful, intelligent, sexy, etc. Many of these men are saying that their wives owe them sex, because they (the men) cleaned a dish or gave them a rose. This sounds like sex for service (money, gifts). There is no connection or love in this. For the record, I never stopped having sex with my husband because I enjoyed the sex. The housework issue came up early on when I took on the title of "wife". It was a huge battle for us back then and that is why some of these posters on here anger me so much. I don't know if it's been brought up before, but I think a dynamic at work here is one where the husband is looking for ways to "spark" the wife. He may get advice to do things for the wife: wine, dine, romance, etc. Or, if he gets told that she's too tired, he'll try to take at least some of the load off of her so that she's no longer so tired. She percieves that he's just doing it to get laid (which he may well be), so the rejection continues. The frustration mounts in the husband, who says to himself "the hell with it, why should I even bother anymore?" Should the husband do things out of love and a sense of responsibility rather than a desire to get laid? Yes. Should the wife recognize the fact that the primary way she can show her husband love is through sexual intimacy? Yes. But all too often, that realization for one or both never comes. Link to post Share on other sites
Thaddeus Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 Many of these men are not saying they want sex from their wives because they are their soul mates or are beautiful, intelligent, sexy, etc. Many of these men are saying that their wives owe them sex, because they (the men) cleaned a dish or gave them a rose. This sounds like sex for service (money, gifts). There is no connection or love in this. Exactly. See, Angie, we're not so far apart on this after all. Let me re-phrase a bit of the quoted text and switch just a couple of details. Many of these women are saying that their men owe them housework or should give them a rose because they gave them sex. This sounds like service (money, gifts) for sex . There is no connection or love in this. See what I mean? Point remains that couples need to communicate their needs to one another. Men should do those things around the house anyway, even if the couple is in the middle of a sexual dry spell, and women should enjoy frequent and vigorous lovemaking with their man anyway even if the dishes aren't done. But reducing intimacy as a medium for trade will destroy a relationship. Link to post Share on other sites
Gamine Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 Didn't you get the memo? Men's needs are 'selfish,' and intimacy with our partners is only doled out when we jump through ill-defined and quickly-moving hoops. Sexual intimacy is reduced to a transaction - do X, Y and Z in a particular order in a particular way and, if the winds are blowing the proper way and Venus is in conjunction with Mars, maybe, just maybe, you might be rewarded with intimacy. Short of abuse or infidelity, I can think of no better way to destroy a relationship than to use sex as a bargaining chip, as some posters would have you believe. I stand by my original assertion: It all starts in the bedroom. In the case of marriage, King Solomon could split the baby, giving each their freedom. If find it interesting that the males contributing to this forum feel that the lack of sex is a deliberate, controlled, calculated, act and classified as 'withholding sex'. Withholding for control, punishment, reward, acceptance, rejection. If find it interesting to learn about this from a male point of view... that a lack of sex drive is seen as a deliberate act of coldness and cruelty. Link to post Share on other sites
giotto Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 You sound like a nice, decent man. I'm sorry for your situation. I think in your case, divorce might be the only answer. I think you mentioned you weren't going down that road before, but I actually think it would be better for your children to see both you and your wife in healthy relationships. I don't think you or your wife are in the wrong. I think you two just have two very different needs at this point. The best you can do now is be honest with each other and work out the situation so that both of you will be okay. If I manage to extract anything from her, we might re-discuss the situation... She doesn't seem inclined to have a talk at the moment. I tried yesterday, but she only said she was depressed (first time she tells me this!) and wouldn't elaborate any further... We might have to divorce after all. This yhing of staying together for the kids isn't working. Not that we hate each other, but it's extremely dull for both of us. I believe we need a clean slate... I think couples eventually get to an impasse in the relationship... the needs are indeed different and can only be resolved by communicating. But it's often too late... sorry for being so jolly... Link to post Share on other sites
GorillaTheater Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 If find it interesting to learn about this from a male point of view... that a lack of sex drive is seen as a deliberate act of coldness and cruelty. After a time of feeling unloved, someone may start to attribute evil or cruel motives to the person who apparently doesn't love them. It cuts both ways. Link to post Share on other sites
giotto Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 that a lack of sex drive is seen as a deliberate act of coldness and cruelty. not always, obviously... but after many years of almost sexless relationship might start looking like that... Link to post Share on other sites
angie2443 Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 I was raised by my father since I was 11. Long story. Anyways, he didn't get "it" that often. He still cleaned, did laundry, etc. We all did. This is what you do when you live in a home or an apartment. When you're an adult, you feed yourself, put on your own shoes, take out trash, clean up after yourself. If you have children, you take care of them, unless you give them away. It blows my mind that so many men think they have no responsibility in taking care of themselves or their kids. This has nothing to do with sex, love or marriage. Adults take care of themselves. End of story. Link to post Share on other sites
Lizzie60 Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 If find it interesting to learn about this from a male point of view... that a lack of sex drive is seen as a deliberate act of coldness and cruelty. Yabutt.. I can really understand a man who tries everything and nothing works.. he might very well get this impression.. That goes both ways btw.. Link to post Share on other sites
GorillaTheater Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 It blows my mind that so many men think they have no responsibility in taking care of themselves or their kids. Who are you talking about, exactly? Link to post Share on other sites
angie2443 Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 If I manage to extract anything from her, we might re-discuss the situation... She doesn't seem inclined to have a talk at the moment. I tried yesterday, but she only said she was depressed (first time she tells me this!) and wouldn't elaborate any further... The depression could be the problem, but it might be to late if too much damage is done. I'm not trying to encourage divorce. I think if your wife is depressed and seeks treatment, then it mighth be the honerable thing to stick with your wife and help her through this. At the same time, if she isn't, or doesn't want to work this out with you, then I believe the healthiest thing for you both is to divorce. My parents did and so I don't say any of this lightly. I just know that if you remain misserable, it isn't good for you and it's going to effect the kids in some way, shape or form Link to post Share on other sites
Gamine Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 After a time of feeling unloved, someone may start to attribute evil or cruel motives to the person who apparently doesn't love them. It cuts both ways. The tragic irony is that both probably really want the same things deep down. Getting there has become unpleasant. Every woman, no matter how scorned or angry desires love, admiration, affection, and to be desired sexually. Peel back the layers and it is there. The very same woman who becomes uninterested in sex may very well be a wildcat if in a different situation with a different man. Look at Lizzie60. She enjoys sex for the sake of sex and the feeling it gives her as a woman. This very same woman may not have been all that interested with a long term partner. As people we are the sum and total of all interactions. Giotto, is it possible that all of the fighting over not having sex is what led to not getting any? Granted, the children came and things changed. But being her friend might have changed things between you. Link to post Share on other sites
Thaddeus Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 It blows my mind that so many men think they have no responsibility in taking care of themselves or their kids. This has nothing to do with sex, love or marriage. Adults take care of themselves. End of story.Sweeping negative generalizations will also get you nowhere. Where, in any of these posts, do any of the men suggest that they should not take responsibility for themselves and their kids? Or is this just hyperbole designed to try and make a point? Because if it is, it ain't working. Link to post Share on other sites
giotto Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 I think most of the men on this board are civilised people who take part actively in the family life, if they have one... personally, I did most of the housework and cooked in the evening, on top of my full-time job... not because I "had to", but because it was a natural thing to do. And definitively NOT for sex! My dad would do nothing at all at home and I despised him for that... Our couple dynamics were fine, until they changed for no apparent reason. I don't know what happened, but the children took centre stage and we lost contact with each other. Wife's sex drive disappeared... maybe it was my fault, but I still don't know what I did wrong... I get the impression, sometimes, that our spouses adopt the "silent" approach so they can get away with minimum sex without getting into complicated explanation about why they don't fancy us anymore in bed... or whatever the reason is. I - personally - will never find out. I'm sure of that... Link to post Share on other sites
giotto Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 The depression could be the problem, but it might be to late if too much damage is done. Maybe I did say this in my other thread a while ago, but she suffers from anxiety. Sh's been on AD for years and she always insisted that she was not depressed. And now she drops this bombshell! And I know that the lack of sex drive could be blamed on the ADs, but she would never discuss it or even try and change medications... sorry for the OT... just updating my situation... might have to start my own thread soon... I'm going a bit crazy! Link to post Share on other sites
angie2443 Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 Who are you talking about, exactly? I don't want to call out any one poster. One said something to the extent that it is wrong for a woman to withhold sex if a man doesn't do, say, the dishes. Again, sex shouldn't have anything to do with doing the dishes. In a healthy household, each person does their share of house work. This situation of a woman withholding sex for dishes can only happen if the woman is the only one responsible for the dishes. Many men believe this is the case when a woman takes on the "wife" title. I've seen this a lot on these boards. Link to post Share on other sites
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