My bf wants me to be with other guys

[Guitarjeff]

I gave, and stand by my advice to the OP many posts ago. You asked a question, I answered it, and then you responded with thinly veiled insults, and a holier than thou attitude. Forgive me for feeling the need to defend us evil swingers from your condescension.

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No problem, defend anything you want, but saying that it is not human nature to have a desire to have an intimate and exclusive relationship is pretty far out. I had asked you about jealousy and instinct, why do many species sexually interact with only one other of it's kind during a mating period, why do male animals have a desire to not allow other males to have sex with their mate? You claim it's learned behavior, please explain?

 

 

 

So you think marriage exists only to justify having a sexual relationship? That's rather shallow, is it not?

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Where are you getting this? I said that desire to have an exclusive, intimate relationship is an integral part of adult love between two well-adjusted people.

 

 

 

Notwithstanding the fact that I find your characterization unnecessarily inflammatory and insulting, but I don't completely disagree with your underlying point. However, one need not forgo "porno teen sex" in order to also have "mature, well adjusted" sex. You can have both.

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No you can't, you can't have an exclusive sexual relationship with your wife if you do what you are doing. Again, I see why you have to continue the claim that there is no value in it to you, you MUST keep that up. So tell me, can sex, or any behavior be degrading, and those acts work to hurt an individuals self esteem? So when a hooker breaks down and cries after giving sex for money, why, it's impossible for this to person do do things that are degrading to her self? Are there sexual acts that are degrading to human beings, and is it not thenn degrading just because the person claims they don't think it is? Your problem is that you think none of this has any real nature and that degradation, disrespect, are only opinions. First, you say you aren't doing porno sex, yet It's all over the pron sites, swingers and husbands watching their wives being treated like objects, now you say it is porno sex and that you can have both, which is it? You cannot have a sexually exclusive relationship with your wife, and have her be used as a sexual object by other men, the two don't work together.

 

 

 

Aside from your 18th century sense of morality, upon what do you base this belief? Do you have studies or professional literature that backs your position that the desire to act out sexual fantasies is a result of "crossed wires"? Or are you saying "This is what I want for MY life, therefore everyone else should live this way whether they want to or not"?

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Again, if it is degrading behavior, and if it hurts self esteem, then it's not just an opinion. Again, you need to believe that it's all just opinion, and nothing is degrading if you simply CLAIM it isn't. Why, anything is normal like that. We need to get you in the mental health field and you can teach these sex addicts who have low self-esteem that all they have to do is claim that they don't think it's degrading, then it won't be, what a cure.

 

 

 

And what, pray tell, is the problem with "just f**king" from time to time?

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You mean watching another man f7cking your wife, don't you? It destroys your ability to have an exclusive relationship with your love. I see, you can just claim you don't see a value, and there we go, get this guy in to the mental health field, there are a lot of porn addicts, prostitutes, whould wouldn't have to have low self-esteem, cause they could just say there's no such thing as degrading sexual behavior that hurts their self-esteem, since it's all just words.

 

 

 

No, we don't differ. That kind of sex IS different, but for some there is no need to give up the former in order to have the latter. For the second time, sex is not love is not sex.

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Sure there is, your immature sex has forever stopped you from the value of an exclusive intimate relationship with your wife. You see her as a sex object for other men, and you don't have sexual immaturity problems, right.

 

 

 

Your preconceptions are showing. First, even in a monogamous relationship, if you do not occasionally see each other as a sex object that makes for a long, painful, boring relationship.

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But when it's exclusive, it's not out of the context of your marriage. fantasy is a big difference from asking your wife to let other men use her sexually, one is fantasy, the other is reality.

 

 

 

 

Secondly, you keep implying that women swingers are nothing more than bodies being passed around at the behest of men, which is absolutely not true. If you are going to discuss something, you really should try to acquire a bit of actual knowledge, as opposed to your simply inaccurate prejudices.

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I used to hang out at a swingers site a few years ago when I was not in a relationship, and sorry but the VAST majority of these people were easily seen for their problems. Their were some looking for real love with other men, so that they could leave their spouse, some men showing clear signs of jealousy and anger, immaturity all over the place, it was obvious that the vast majority of these people had sexual hangups, and most of the men were pron addicts who you could tell took that immature sex thing into life..

 

 

 

I don't know about you, but people who cannot, or will not, admit when they have made a mistake are probably doomed to repeat them. It's amazing to me that you can say that we're merely deluding ourselves (or lying to ourselves). Perhaps you are right, and we really don't enjoy our activities, we really don't love our friends, and I suppose most of all, we really don't love each other. Should I stop giving my wife a kiss when we go to bed? How about when she gets home from work?

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You missed the most important one, you don't love yourself. Sexual immaturity is all through our society, or are the high rates of drug addiction in the porn business and high rate of porn addiction just a mirage? Clearly, any reasonable person can see that there are sexual acts that are degrading, how many low-self esteem prostitutes have you seen? They are all over. People stay married for all kinds of reasons, money, convenience, mutual sexual immaturity, by all means, kiss your wife, but getting a thrill out of watching her be used as a sex object clearly shows how much you respect her to the world and it shows your sexual immaturity, cause it's the same type sex teen boys dream off, but I guess that's just coincidence, huh?. Saying your not disrespecting her doesn't make it true.

 

You know the biggest difference between you and me, Jeff? My advice to the OP was that she needs to be true to herself, as does her boyfriend. Your advise is that they need to do things your way, even if they don't agree, because you said so. Which of those two positions seems more reasonable?

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Wrong, my advice to her was to ask her boyfriend flat out if he sees no value in an exclusive intimate relationship with her, ask herself how that feels inside, ask herself if she sees any value in an exclusive relationship with him, or would she prefer to let guys use her as a sex object and let her boyfriend get off. I ask her to ask herself if she sees anything immature about this bahavior and if she thinks it most defintely can be part of a mature, love relationship built on mutual respect. I ask her, does she think that there can be sexual acts that can be degrading to a person and hurt their self esteem, even if they simply CLAIM it doesn't?

[sxyNYCcpl]

No problem, defend anything you want, but saying that it is not human nature to have a desire to have an intimate and exclusive relationship is pretty far out.

 

Apparently not as far out as you think, as there are literally millions of your fellow citizens who lack that desire. But we're all just lying to ourselves, I guess.

 

I had asked you about jealousy and instinct, why do many species sexually interact with only one other of it's kind during a mating period, why do male animals have a desire to not allow other males to have sex with their mate? You claim it's learned behavior, please explain?

 

That's so simple I am surprised you even asked the question. Animals mate for one reason, and one reason alone. To procreate. Males battle for superiority because their instincts are screaming at them "YOU HAVE TO MAKE BABIES AND YOU HAVE TO DO IT NOW!!!!!!!!!" These battles insure only the strongest are actually successful in their attempts to procreate, thus ensuring the best genetic outcome possible. Most animals pair bond only long enough to ensure conception, so pointing at animals to justify the learned behavior of human jealousy is ridiculous.

 

Humans, on the other hand have sex both for procreation and for recreation. Much of the time when we're having sex for fun, we consciously desire to NOT procreate, and take steps to prevent it, and a long term, exclusive relationship is not required for recreation.

 

I said that desire to have an exclusive, intimate relationship is an integral part of adult love between two well-adjusted people.

 

Yes, "well-adjusted" people are monogamous, only and forever. Look, the insults are getting old. We're not maladjusted, we're not acting like children, we're not perverts, and we're not forcing anyone to do anything they don't want to do. If you wish to discuss or debate ideas, you can do so without the superiority complex, as I've said before you're simply not that important, nor are you any better than the rest of us.

 

No you can't, you can't have an exclusive sexual relationship with your wife if you do what you are doing. Again, I see why you have to continue the claim that there is no value in it to you, you MUST keep that up.

 

That the idea that monogamy is the only acceptable way of life is so important to you to accuse me of being disingenuous says more about you than it does me, methinks. What part of the idea that swingers do not desire monogamy is so hard to understand?

 

So tell me, can sex, or any behavior be degrading, and those acts work to hurt an individuals self esteem?

 

Yes, sex, and for that matter just about any behavior can be degrading under the right circumstances. Yet if 2 (or more) consenting adults engage in sexual activity that they do not find degrading, the fact that you (or others) might does not make it so.

 

First, you say you aren't doing porno sex, yet It's all over the pron sites, swingers and husbands watching their wives being treated like objects, now you say it is porno sex and that you can have both, which is it? You cannot have a sexually exclusive relationship with your wife, and have her be used as a sexual object by other men, the two don't work together.

 

First, 99.9% of the "pron" you see claiming to be swingers is not, and any similarities to what they put on tape and the reality of swinging is coincidental at best. And clearly you are wrong, we have a fantastic sex life, both just us and with others, we have a fantastic marriage, we have mutual respect, and we love our lives. And for the third time, I am not "having her be used as a sexual object by other men", she is a big girl, and she does what (and who) she wants to do, with men and women. We are equals, seems you may not believe in that.

 

Again, if it is degrading behavior, and if it hurts self esteem, then it's not just an opinion. Again, you need to believe that it's all just opinion, and nothing is degrading if you simply CLAIM it isn't. Why, anything is normal like that. We need to get you in the mental health field and you can teach these sex addicts who have low self-esteem that all they have to do is claim that they don't think it's degrading, then it won't be, what a cure.

 

You telling me, my wife, or any of my friends we're being degraded does not make it so. You are projecting your values onto us, and declaring us deviants or maladjusted if we do not conform. Sounds awfully tyrannical to me.

 

You mean watching another man f7cking your wife, don't you? It destroys your ability to have an exclusive relationship with your love.

 

I didn't mean just that, but I suppose it's included. Once again, you are simply and factually wrong, as we do have an exclusive (emotional) relationship that is wonderful and in exactly ZERO jeopardy because of our sexual activities.

 

Let me ask you this, given that swingers get divorced at a rate much, much lower than the general population, you think we might actually be onto something good and healthy? Nah, it couldn't be that, we're maladjusted, childish, perverted people with mental problems who aren't even smart enough to know when we've been degraded.

 

I used to hang out at a swingers site a few years ago when I was not in a relationship, and sorry but the VAST majority of these people were easily seen for their problems.

 

First, AFF is full of all kinds of weirdos, fakes, and kooks. We are on swinger sites, of course, but we really prefer to meet real people in the real world. It does help cut down the wanna-bes and the never were's from the real deal. Of course, if you had any actual experience with real swingers, had you done any legitimate research instead of just relying on your sense of self-superiority you would know all this. But since you already know everything there is to know about the subject, I guess research is pointless.

 

You missed the most important one, you don't love yourself.

 

Now THAT is the most ridiculous thing you've said yet. If only you knew.

 

Saying your not disrespecting her doesn't make it true.

 

Nope, it don't. But when she says I'm not, then it most certainly does. And I just love the misogynistic undertone to your messages that we disrespect our wives, that we pass our wives around to be "used by other men", etc. Do you think women are only there to do as they're told??

 

Wrong, my advice to her was to ask her boyfriend flat out if he sees no value in an exclusive intimate relationship with her, ask herself how that feels inside, ask herself if she sees any value in an exclusive relationship with him, or would she prefer to let guys use her as a sex object and let her boyfriend get off.

 

Which presumes that she desires and/or requires sexual monogamy in her life. Such advise is reasonable if she does, but not if she doesn't.

[Guitarjeff]

By the way, here's a link I thought was good.

http://www.divinecaroline.com/22081/49279-swinging--ask-shrink/3

[sxyNYCcpl]

Of course you would, as it validated your position. Too bad the reality is different.

 

From http://www.ejhs.org/volume3/swing/body.htm, which I previously posted but which you clearly didn't read.

 

Emotional monogamy, or commitment to the love relationship with one's marital partner, remains the primary focus. Swinging is usually done in the presence of one's spouse and requires the consent of both to the experience.

 

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It has yet to be demonstrated empirically whether this alternative lifestyle actually strengthens or weakens marital relationships, but in an era where 37% of husbands and 29% of wives admit to having had at least one extra-marital affair (Reinisch, 1990), where divorce rates for first marriages are approaching 60% (Jones, 1995), and where family instability and parental neglect of children has become a major national concern (Wagner, 1998; Lowe, 1996; Jones, et al, 1995), any attempt to redefine "love" and strengthen the marital bond is worthy of our attention. If swingers have found a way to stabilize relationships, prolong family ties, and enrich the lives of couples we would be remiss if we did not take their lifestyle and their redefinition of monogamous love seriously.

 

...

 

Included in the sample were ten physicians, fifteen attorneys, sixty-five upper level managers or owners of businesses, twenty-seven engineers, twenty-two teachers, forty health professionals including nurses, and people representing a variety of other occupations including skill blue collar workers, office personnel, computer technicians and artists.

 

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If companionship can be loosely interpreted as a commitment to "emotional monogamy" in marriage, swingers clearly see this as a valued part of their marital bond.

 

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Contrary to the assumptions underlying the pathological view of swingers, no statistically significant differences between the groups were found. If anything, the data suggest that swingers may view human nature as "good" slightly more than the GSS population.

 

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Significant differences were found between the two groups, with swingers showing higher levels of happiness than married couples in the general population.

 

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As the data shows, 62.6% of swingers found that swinging improved their marriages/relationships, 35.6% said their relationships stayed about the same, and only 1.7% said they became less happy.

 

...

 

Table 20 indicates that swingers rate themselves as significantly happier than the general population. Table 21 shows that swingers are significantly more likely to experience life as exciting rather than dull or routine.

 

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Table 20 indicates that swingers rate themselves as significantly happier than the general population. Table 21 shows that swingers are significantly more likely to experience life as exciting rather than dull or routine.

 

But they're all just lying to themselves, I guess, huh?

[Jersey Shortie]

Your statement is that it is not an instinct and part of human nature to feel an exclusive intimate connection with your spouse, and that it is only in people's upbringing. Sorry, but I just don't think this is correct. You are telling all people that they aren't really feeling this in a natural way, as part of human nature, but as a learned belief, and that does diminish in some way.

 

I couldn't agree more. While I recognize that sex is very natural, even sex between two people who don't care about each other beyond it, I also think being monogmous is natural. That's really the whole point. Both sides of the coin are, qoute on qoute, natural. We get a choice. It is not one way or the other. Sexual variety and danger are natural, as is monogomy. People are driven by both factors and in that is a strange kind of balance and freedom of choice.

 

What it ultimately comes down to is us making a choice about the way we want to live our life, the type of person we ulitmately want to be and how we want to express that to our partner and the world.

 

Unfortunetly, I think most people, clearly I am also gulity of this at times as well, are more inclined to work around what they can to satisfy any whim or fleeting fancy they feel in the moment and then justfy anything under "it's natural". Yes, certain parts of our nature are natural. But I don't think the point of life is to feed every little feeling or desire you have. I think deep down in most people's hearts, they would agree. But we kind of live in an "all about me and what I want now" culture. Instead of working towards something more profound we can use even our relationships with other people to fullfill our own selfish demands almost turning the other person into an object. Whether that is for sex, money or the various other things being substitute emotional connection for. There are a variety of reasons. Perhaps real true deep intimacy between two people is uncomfortable for some because of emotional and physcological differences. Especially for alot of men who aren't taught to be and naturally have a harder time being "in-touch" with their emotions as women seem to be. For this reason, I think it's easier for men to treat women like objects then the reverse. Perhaps sometimes relationships and sex are used to self medicate instead of really focusing on what being in a relationship means. Instead of living in emotions we strive to dull them? For both men and women. We could get pretty deep here.

 

 

 

Now, in my personal opinion, there are two kinds of sex, there is the immature, teenage porno sex where the teen dreams of having his teacher on all fours up on her desk after school smacking her behind and seeing her as a sexual object, and then there is mature sexual desire between two adults and I believe that exclusive intimacy is a natural, healthy and integral part of that love, a type of instinct.

 

GuitarGuy, I have never heard anyone articulate that so well before. Did you always think this way or was this something you just came to decide as you matured? I don't find too many men that really think like you do but I think it's infinitly more healthy then how most of our culture preceives sex. How did you come to think like you do on this subject?

[Guitarjeff]

Apparently not as far out as you think, as there are literally millions of your fellow citizens who lack that desire. But we're all just lying to ourselves, I guess.

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There are millions of people with low self-esteem, doesn't make it a good thing for humans.

 

 

 

That's so simple I am surprised you even asked the question. Animals mate for one reason, and one reason alone. To procreate. Males battle for superiority because their instincts are screaming at them "YOU HAVE TO MAKE BABIES AND YOU HAVE TO DO IT NOW!!!!!!!!!" These battles insure only the strongest are actually successful in their attempts to procreate, thus ensuring the best genetic outcome possible. Most animals pair bond only long enough to ensure conception, so pointing at animals to justify the learned behavior of human jealousy is ridiculous.

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Ridiculous. I have shown that the desire for exclusive intimacy CAN be related to natural evolution. That it's not just a mental thought, but an instinct, as many species show. Clearly I have given you an obvious possible connection for jealousy to be inherent in nature.

 

 

 

Humans, on the other hand have sex both for procreation and for recreation.

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And the recreation part is the part that's a thought, since it doesn't involve procreation and is not in that context. It's your sport that's a mental construct.

 

 

 

Much of the time when we're having sex for fun, we consciously desire to NOT procreate, and take steps to prevent it, and a long term, exclusive relationship is not required for recreation.

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but the desire to have an exclusive intimacy can be part of that that does ensure procreation by it's mere existence.

 

 

 

Yes, "well-adjusted" people are monogamous, only and forever. Look, the insults are getting old. We're not maladjusted, we're not acting like children, we're not perverts, and we're not forcing anyone to do anything they don't want to do. If you wish to discuss or debate ideas, you can do so without the superiority complex, as I've said before you're simply not that important, nor are you any better than the rest of us.

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Your irritation comes form the fact that I'm not buying your silly contention that degrading acts are not degrading if you simply say they are not. Doesn't work that way. I am not saying you are by intention doing something wrong, I am saying that certain acts CAN AND ARE degrading WHETHER OR NOT YOU or you wife claim they aren't or not. Low self esteem is not a mental thought that can be removed by simply saying, "now I don't have low self-esteem"

 

 

 

That the idea that monogamy is the only acceptable way of life is so important to you to accuse me of being disingenuous says more about you than it does me,

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And here it is again, you claim I am accusing YOU, and not the ACT, because you falsely believe that no act can be degrading and cause low self esteem, IF YOU SIMPLY SAY it doesn't. It doesn't matter that you DON'T WANT THE act to be degrading, that doesn't mean a hill of beans. Low self-esteem is not a THOUGHT, it is a real mental condition and people can do things that are degrading to themselves and IT DOESN'T MATTER WHETHER THEY SAY THEY DON'T FEEL DEGRADED. If that were true, then just about any sick crap goes, and there is no such thing as a real mind having a condition of low-self esteem, why, they could just CLAIM IT AWAY. So try and understand, when you allow a man to get his rocks off in your wife without caring, love, or intimacy between the two, THAT'S a degrading act your wife is allowing to happen to herself, and she can't just decide it's not degrading and then it magically is not, just as it doesn't matter a bit that you DON'T WANT YOUR DISRESPECT of her to be degrading, it doesn't matter what you want, the ACT it'self is by nature a degrading sexual act that clearly causes low-self esteem. See how that works?

 

There actually are real degrading acts that lower self worth and I don't care what you want to be true, the act is degrading by nature, it allows a man to use a woman for his own sex object, and it matters not if the woman claims she loves it and it is not denegrating. This changes nothing for the man. He is still using someone he doesn't have real feelings for as a sex object, that's a fact, and that doesn't change from his perspective whether you wife enjoys it or not.

 

The thoughts in your wife's head change nothing, it's a fact that he is using her for a sex object, and that's by the nature of the act, not because she says say he is or isn't. I can go find all kinds of week minded, sick prostitutes with low-self esteem and have sex with them and they can claim they love it, that changes nothing of the relationship I have to the body in front of me, iether I respect them and care for them, or i use them as a sex object for myself, and her feelings don't change that simple fact AT ALL. Does your wife's feelings change the fact that the man is getting his rocks off in someone he has no caring and intimate feelings with? NOPE, her feelings don't mean he is not getting his rocks off in someone he cares nothing for. Wanting something to not be denegrading has nothing to do with whether it actually is. Low self esteem is not something cured by saying, "Ah, I just decided that I don't have low self esteem, or I just decided that this man is not screwing someone he doesn't care for". The fact is, your buddy is screwing your wife and has no feelings for her, so he's using her as a sex object, and that doesn't change no matter how bad you or your wife want it to.

 

 

 

methinks. What part of the idea that swingers do not desire monogamy is so hard to understand?

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And people with low self esteem don't want to have it, but you can't cure it by saying, "I now don't have low self-esteem. The act of your wife allowing herself to be used as a sexual object is degrading, whether you want it to be or not, the act itself is, the nature of it, the nature of it doresn't depend on what you think. There are denegrading behaviors, and they are denegrading not because someone DECIDES IT In THIER MIND. Again, the medical books are full of connections between promiscuity and low self esteem, you can't just say, well, now I decide that I am not denegrading myself, so I guess that means I am now mentally heathy.

 

 

 

Yes, sex, and for that matter just about any behavior can be degrading under the right circumstances. Yet if 2 (or more) consenting adults engage in sexual activity that they do not find degrading, the fact that you (or others) might does not make it so.

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And that's an absolute crock and you know it. denegration is not a thought that can be defeated by simply decing you don't think it's denegrading. Jeez, like i said, get this guy in the mental health field, he's discovered that there are no denegrading acts that can have mental health and low self esteem problems as long as you simply want to do them and claim you don't feel denegraded, where have you been for all mental health history? You have the instant cure, if you believe it's not denegrading, why then there's no harm and problem, it's all just a thought, words, that's all.

 

 

 

First, 99.9% of the "pron" you see claiming to be swingers is not, and any similarities to what they put on tape and the reality of swinging is coincidental at best. And clearly you are wrong, we have a fantastic sex life, both just us and with others, we have a fantastic marriage, we have mutual respect, and we love our lives.

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Sure, that's what everyone said at the site as i watched them try to find love, some try to hide anger and jealousy which they claimed they could just DECIDE they didn't have. Like I said, the act it'self is denegrading, not only if you forget to decide it's not. Oh, but you and your wife are different. many of the ladies on the site were clearly pushed in to it by fear of losing their husbands, many were clearly willing to get divorces if their partners were to want to stop, yet the other partner claimed different whe asked without their partner around. I saw most of them were immature sexually and had clear self esteem problems and fear of being alone so they SAID they wanted to do it, yet when alone with a guy they were trying to find real love so they could leave their spouse.

 

 

 

 

 

And for the third time, I am not "having her be used as a sexual object by other men",

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No, your just getting your rocks off while she disrepects herself, how mature and caring of you.

 

 

 

she is a big girl, and she does what (and who) she wants to do, with men and women. We are equals, seems you may not believe in that.

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Oh yeah, remember, anything goes, no sex act can be degrading if you simply SAY it's not, then there can be no low self esteem, cause you relabled it as NOT LOW SELF ESTEEM. I see how that works.

 

 

 

You telling me, my wife, or any of my friends we're being degraded does not make it so.

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and your wife saying she is not doing something degrading to herself doesn't make it so, or we could just think all menatl health problems and self worth problems away, we could just call is, High self-esteem and self love, and then, there we go, wow, where have you been for mental health history. You have made a great discovery. Why, it's not even reasonable that you are immature sexually and probably grew up addicted to porn and took that reality in to adulthood and now you are living out the teen porno sex fantasies, why, it's just coincidence that immature teens have the same fantasies that you are acting out in realitiy, that's just mere coincidence, why it's really that you are doing these acts because they are not innately denegrading and immature and since you and your wife just say you don't feel denegraded, well, that means it's not denegrading. How simple. That coincidence thing your sexual acts have with teenage porno fantasies is just by chance, no way you could have sexual immaturity problems and took that twisted veiw of reality in to manhood, why women really do enjoy getting used by men as sexual objects, as long as they just SAY they do.

 

 

You are projecting your values onto us, and declaring us deviants or maladjusted if we do not conform. Sounds awfully tyrannical to me.

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Low self esteem and it's connection to sexual behavior is not a VAlUE thought up in people's minds. Saying that denegrating acts only exist in the mind and can be thought away because you want it to not be unhealthy, well, that sounda like a guy whose sexcapades seems awfully similar to a man with a immature sexual concept making excuses for his continued childish, disrespectful, denegrading behavior.

 

 

 

I didn't mean just that, but I suppose it's included. Once again, you are simply and factually wrong, as we do have an exclusive (emotional) relationship that is wonderful and in exactly ZERO jeopardy because of our sexual activities.

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And what else are you going to say. You may be saying that because you can't admit you have hurt your marriage and are engaging in denegrading acts that are disrespectful. You see, we do know one fact, and that is YOU CAN NEVER HAVE a mutually exclusive sex life with your wife since the time you met. We can only take your claim of happiness with a grain of salt, since you may only be sayng that because it's human nature not to want to have hurt your wife's and your own self esteem. You see, my statemnt is NOT OPINION, it's a fact, YOU CAN NEVER HAVE AN ECLUSIVE INTIMATE RELATIONSHIP WITH YOUR WIFE FROM THE TIME YOU FELL IN LOVE, that's a fact, so why wouldn't you claim you don't want it? You can't ever have it anyway. You are FORBIDDEN FROM IT, so I don't blame you for saying you don't see value in it, if i was forever forbidden from it I would say that too probably, and you would have to take it with a grain of salt.

 

Let me ask you this, given that swingers get divorced at a rate much, much lower than the general population, you think we might actually be onto something good and healthy?

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People can stay married for bad reasons. I have seen people stay married because drugs were easier to come by. Like i said before, many man wakes up with a hooker or someone he is disrespecting and he can even say he loves her, he respects her, but that doesn't make it so. Saying I love you doesn't mean you then are in a loving, respectful relationship. just as a woman who says she is not denegrading herself doesn't mean she isn't denegrading herself. Wouldn't life be grand if you could just say, nothing is unhealthy if I simply don't want it to be.

 

 

 

 

Nah, it couldn't be that, we're maladjusted, childish, perverted people with mental problems who aren't even smart enough to know when we've been degraded.

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Why no, it's just mere coincidence that your sexual acts appear to be that of a man who never matured sexually and takes his teenage, porno, childish concepts about sex into adulthood and then wants to live them out in reality. Why, it only looks like that could be the answer, it's only coincidence that teenagers have fantasies that seem to resemble exactly what you are doiing. Why, it's coincidence that I used to dream of my neighbor girl and me getting it on with another guy and me thinking that the girl was only a sex object, and I had a fantasy that she actually liked it because she agreed to it and said she did. Why, kids don't have their sexual values stunted and warped by porno and begin to feel that's reality and how women and men like to be treated and to treat each other, and then they never mature and get guidance to set their sexual values straight and they go into adulthood with these deviant behaviors being believed to be normal, nah, that never happens, it's not reasonable to say your actions seem to fit that scenario perfectly, that's just a strange coincidenece, your sex acts only seem like they are that of a teenage boy who goes into manhood with a warped sense of intimacy, values, and love and tries to live out those fantasies in reality. Why, that couldn't be you. You have informed me that there is no deviancy, no denegration as long as you say you don't feel denegraded. Why, when your wife say she is not feeling denegraded, then that changes the nature of the situation for the man banging her, now he really does care for her and he's not using her as a sperm bag without intimacy with her, because she says she likes it. So now things are different for him, he must now care for her since he is no longer doing anything that's denegrading by nature.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Nope, it don't. But when she says I'm not, then it most certainly does.

--------------------------------------------------------------

 

Yep, why, if you say you are not feeling denegraded, then there's nothing denegrading, I got it now. Ill effects and low self esteem are now not even possible, because your wife decided she won't have low self esteem about it, wow, what a cure for low self esteem. It's just a thought, and if you think it away, then nothing is denegrading, brilliant.

 

 

 

And I just love the misogynistic undertone to your messages that we disrespect our wives, that we pass our wives around to be "used by other men", etc. Do you think women are only there to do as they're told??

-------------------------------------------------------------

 

Do you think that there is no behavior that is denegrading to the human spirit and self value as long as you claim you like it? The act it'self of your wife allowing herself to be used as a sexual object is denegrading, whether she or you WANT it to be or not.

 

 

 

Which presumes that she desires and/or requires sexual monogamy in her life. Such advise is reasonable if she does, but not if she doesn't

-------------------------------------------------------------

 

And any appearance of her boyfriend having strangely the same values about sex as a teenage boy with no guidance about denegrading sexual behavior is merely coincident, right, just like you.

[sxyNYCcpl]

Your irritation comes form the fact that I'm not buying your silly contention that degrading acts are not degrading if you simply say they are not. Doesn't work that way. I am not saying you are by intention doing something wrong, I am saying that certain acts CAN AND ARE degrading WHETHER OR NOT YOU or you wife claim they aren't or not. Low self esteem is not a mental thought that can be removed by simply saying, "now I don't have low self-esteem"

 

I will address your post in it's entirety tomorrow, but some of us have real jobs and I have to get to bed.

 

That said, I will address this singular point before I do so.

 

Jeff, you are not important enough to declare what is, or is not, degrading for the entire human race. Just because you think something is degrading does not make it so. I'm sorry if that offends your sense of superiority, but at the end of the day, that's how it is. If gay guys want go do gay guy stuff, and don't feel degraded, then they're not. If swingers want to do swinger stuff, and don't feel degraded, then they're not. If lesbians want to do lesbian stuff, and don't feel degraded, then they're not. Ditto for porn stars, prostitutes, strippers, nude models, or anyone else who participates in sexual activities that, while not something that the majority participates in, or even desires to participate in, is nonetheless something that those who do participate in enjoy, and do so of their own free will.

 

Now, anyone who is doing any sexual act and pretendending to not feel degraded, despite the fact that deep down inside, they do, that's a whole different story. But that's not what we're talking about.

 

There is no such thing as a sexual act done by a consenting adult that is degrading even if said consensual adult finds otherwise. Only the willing participants can determine that.

 

I will have much more to say on the morrow.

[Guitarjeff]

Thanks jersey, I appreciate that. No, this is just some thoughts I have had on and off. I used to frequent a swing site, and from what I saw, it's far and away more deviant, with low self esteem, immature sexual values about intimacy and what degrading acts are than is ever admitted to by the people who are actually doing it. Go spend some time on one of these sites as a guest and simply observe their behavior.

 

I made several friends on the site and was able to get personal with them, and when I got to know them, the low self-esteem was obvious, the degrading acts that DID effect them whether they admitted it or not. One woman tried to fall in love with me and leave her husband, yet when her husband was on camera with her, then it was a different story. One woman even told me she would have no problem leaving her kids to come be with me, and she had done it two times before on her husband and he took her back both times. One couple an older couple, mid 40's would make all the claims about openness and honesty, yet when his wife went in to her room when she was on the phone with me, he became hurt and you could see the hurt in his eyes, and the anger, yet while with her before than he would claim he wasn't capable of jealousy.

 

I saw this twisted stuff over and over from the vast majority of the people. I saw grown men acting out a porno style of sex which looked an awful lot like the immature fantasies I had as a 14 year old. Looked suspiciously like guys who had grown up having their concepts of intimacy, sex, and mutual respect distorted by pornography and had no one to give guidance and another perspective on intimacy, and then they grow up and take this in to adulthood and they want to live this immature sexuality out in reality. This does happen in reality, that's obvious to anyone, and it sure seems strange that these folks who are doing this stuff in adulthood appear to be doing the same thing but simply saying it's not so, yet their actions are exactly like the fantasies of immature boys.

 

These people once I got to know several of them were clearly disturbed about intimacy, respect, self value, demeaning acts, and it was the vast majority of the ones I got to know personally. By all means, go sign up and get to know some of them and you'll see it's rarely the way they claim it to be.

 

Thanks for your kind words.

 

 

 

 

GuitarGuy, I have never heard anyone articulate that so well before. Did you always think this way or was this something you just came to decide as you matured? I don't find too many men that really think like you do but I think it's infinitly more healthy then how most of our culture preceives sex. How did you come to think like you do on this subject?

[Guitarjeff]

Well, I appreciate your nice tone and fairness, of course, I don't agree with you. mental health journals are full of connections between low self-esteem and sex. We might as well let it end here. Like i said, looks an awful lot like these folks are living out immature sexual fantasies that all immature humans have in mental formation on the way to adulthood. We as a society know for sure that pornography can and does twist many young minds and shape they way they look at intimacy, and if there is no guidance from another perspective these people become adults and then live out these immature fantasies in reality. Porn addiction is clearly a big problem, and it warps many a young mind, and it appears strangely identical to what these adults are doing and the views they have about intimacy.

 

Also, sorry, I don't believe that acts are not demeaning to yourself if you simply claim they aren't and your having fun. Sorry, I have lived 47 years and I don't see that for a second. But again, we'll just leave it at that. and thanks for the thoughtful remarks. We can agree to diagree, and here's nothing wrong with that. I have my personal experiences and you have yours.

 

 

 

I will address your post in it's entirety tomorrow, but some of us have real jobs and I have to get to bed.

 

That said, I will address this singular point before I do so.

 

Jeff, you are not important enough to declare what is, or is not, degrading for the entire human race. Just because you think something is degrading does not make it so. I'm sorry if that offends your sense of superiority, but at the end of the day, that's how it is. If gay guys want go do gay guy stuff, and don't feel degraded, then they're not. If swingers want to do swinger stuff, and don't feel degraded, then they're not. If lesbians want to do lesbian stuff, and don't feel degraded, then they're not. Ditto for porn stars, prostitutes, strippers, nude models, or anyone else who participates in sexual activities that, while not something that the majority participates in, or even desires to participate in, is nonetheless something that those who do participate in enjoy, and do so of their own free will.

 

Now, anyone who is doing any sexual act and pretendending to not feel degraded, despite the fact that deep down inside, they do, that's a whole different story. But that's not what we're talking about.

 

There is no such thing as a sexual act done by a consenting adult that is degrading even if said consensual adult finds otherwise. Only the willing participants can determine that.

 

I will have much more to say on the morrow.

[Guitarjeff]

Well, I appreciate your nice tone and fairness, of course, I don't agree with you. mental health journals are full of connections between low self-esteem and sex. We might as well let it end here. Like i said, looks an awful lot like these folks are living out immature sexual fantasies that all immature humans have in mental formation on the way to adulthood. We as a society know for sure that pornography can and does twist many young minds and shape they way they look at intimacy, and if there is no guidance from another perspective these people become adults and then live out these immature fantasies in reality. Porn addiction is clearly a big problem, and it warps many a young mind, and it appears strangely identical to what these adults are doing and the views they have about intimacy.

 

Also, sorry, I don't believe that acts are not demeaning to yourself if you simply claim they aren't and your having fun. Sorry, I have lived 47 years and I don't see that for a second. But again, we'll just leave it at that. and thanks for the thoughtful remarks. We can agree to diagree, and here's nothing wrong with that. I have my personal experiences and you have yours.

 

 

 

I will address your post in it's entirety tomorrow, but some of us have real jobs and I have to get to bed.

 

That said, I will address this singular point before I do so.

 

Jeff, you are not important enough to declare what is, or is not, degrading for the entire human race. Just because you think something is degrading does not make it so. I'm sorry if that offends your sense of superiority, but at the end of the day, that's how it is. If gay guys want go do gay guy stuff, and don't feel degraded, then they're not. If swingers want to do swinger stuff, and don't feel degraded, then they're not. If lesbians want to do lesbian stuff, and don't feel degraded, then they're not. Ditto for porn stars, prostitutes, strippers, nude models, or anyone else who participates in sexual activities that, while not something that the majority participates in, or even desires to participate in, is nonetheless something that those who do participate in enjoy, and do so of their own free will.

 

Now, anyone who is doing any sexual act and pretendending to not feel degraded, despite the fact that deep down inside, they do, that's a whole different story. But that's not what we're talking about.

 

There is no such thing as a sexual act done by a consenting adult that is degrading even if said consensual adult finds otherwise. Only the willing participants can determine that.

 

I will have much more to say on the morrow.

[donnamaybe]

My OPINION - please note I said OPINION - is that people who want to say having sex outside of their relationship doesn't mean they don't love their partner are simply looking for an excuse for sexual variety. If two people who share this view meet and choose to set up a household together, fine. But do NOT try to tell the OP that HER SITUATION is one in which her BF really loves her when many others feel he truly does not.

 

OP, this is for YOU to decide. What do you feel about it? This is YOUR relationship. Would YOU feel that screwing other people with your BF's permission would somehow diminish the specialness of your relationship?

 

I can tell you how my baby and I feel about it. There's something special about our lovemaking. We have made a promise to each other to keep ourselves ONLY for each other. In the 3+ years we've been together, I've never felt the want to even think about sex with another man.

 

But that's US and OUR relationship. This is about YOU and YOUR relationship, so it's up to you to decide.

 

I have to say, though, that your guy even OFFERING for you to have sex of ANY kind with other guys is just his way of trying to get permission for him to screw other women.

[britchick]

OK, here's yet another opinion, from an insiders point of view.

 

Have tried this over a period of 18 months or so. It started as a bit of fun or an experiment right at the beginning of a relationship. I wouldn't say it's true that couples who do this don't respect or love each other. I've seen plenty of couples who obviously do but I've also seen relationships in trouble.

 

It is obviously not possible for anyone to say that divorce is lower in couples who are into 'the lifestyle', where the hell would you find statistics for that???!!!! There are some couples who you see at clubs/parties that you see a few times and never again - who knows why?? Perhaps they've split, perhaps they changed their minds.

 

Overall, I'd say it is generally a 'team' thing and swingers have rules because they recognise that relationships are complicated. Most people take things slowly and see how they feel. Some people only have sex with each other and like to be watched, some have 'same room' sex with other couples, some go off with other people into separate rooms, whatever they are comfortable with.

 

I would say that most men are into it because they want to see their wife/gf with another woman, most women on the scene are at least bi-curious.

 

However, it is a lifestyle that needs constant re-evaluating, a lot of people seem to have periods of swinging and periods when they don't. I have found that people are never very honest about this and I have also found that a lot of couples have one person who is very needy or vulnerable and another who is in control.

 

I have found very few people that I would actually want to spend any time with outside the scene, some peoples lives seem to revolve around it. Over time the initial sheen wears off and it can all seem a little sad and shallow.

 

Anyway, to wrap up, it can be fun and exciting but also potentially destructive if one partner is into it more than the other. Please remember this is just an opinion formed by my own experiences so no attacks please!!!

[bhweller]

I agree with everything britchick said, and I have real life experience as well.

[bhweller]

"I have to say, though, that your guy even OFFERING for you to have sex of ANY kind with other guys is just his way of trying to get permission for him to screw other women."

 

this is definitely something to suspect, but we don't have enough information to be sure. some people just have fetishes and fantasies. Have you noticed that most porn out there is multiple men with one woman ? Its true. About half the porn out there is MFM threesomes and gangbangs. That is not an accident, they wouldn't make it if they couldn't sell it. There is a phenomenon where the man gets off on the pleasure of his woman.

[kiss_andmakeup]

I have to say, though, that your guy even OFFERING for you to have sex of ANY kind with other guys is just his way of trying to get permission for him to screw other women.

 

I have to say though, this is not necessarily the case.

 

I dated a guy for a short term who was very turned on by the idea of me with other men, but had no interest in being with other women. The relationship wasn't super serious so I even mentioned that if he wanted to see other women he could and I didn't care, and he had no interest in it.

 

Everyone is different. For some (and probably a select few) it is a turn on to see their women with other men, maybe to remind them how desirable she is, how sexual she is, not really sure. I just know that these men do exist.

 

As for the OP, if you're not comfortable with it, then don't do it. I don't have any problem with swingers and I respect their lifestyle...I will admit I have even thought about it a few times...but the fact that my boyfriend (who I hope to be with long term) would probably never be okay with it, has caused me to not even bring it up.

 

Your boyfriend should do you the same courtesy. So long as you make it known that you're not comfortable with it, he really shouldn't bring it up anymore.

 

As for the ongoing argument, I have enjoyed reading sxyNYCcpl's posts, and find them to be the more educated and qualified statements of the bunch. Unfortunately there will always be closed-minded people who feel threatened by the open-minded ones.

 

Live and let live, yeah?

[Jersey Shortie]

Thanks jersey, I appreciate that. No, this is just some thoughts I have had on and off. I used to frequent a swing site, and from what I saw, it's far and away more deviant, with low self esteem, immature sexual values about intimacy and what degrading acts are than is ever admitted to by the people who are actually doing it. Go spend some time on one of these sites as a guest and simply observe their behavior.

 

I think that's an interesting and insightful perspective. I don't think your ability to swing makes you more confident and evovled, and you clearly experienced that.

 

I saw this twisted stuff over and over from the vast majority of the people. I saw grown men acting out a porno style of sex which looked an awful lot like the immature fantasies I had as a 14 year old. Looked suspiciously like guys who had grown up having their concepts of intimacy, sex, and mutual respect distorted by pornography and had no one to give guidance and another perspective on intimacy, and then they grow up and take this in to adulthood and they want to live this immature sexuality out in reality. This does happen in reality, that's obvious to anyone, and it sure seems strange that these folks who are doing this stuff in adulthood appear to be doing the same thing but simply saying it's not so, yet their actions are exactly like the fantasies of immature boys.

 

Unfortunetly, I think that's more common then ever, not just within swinging couples. I am not sure if msot people knwo what true intimacy is. Instead, we tell people popping in a porn video of disconnected sex and wathcing it together is true intimacy.

 

These people once I got to know several of them were clearly disturbed about intimacy, respect, self value, demeaning acts, and it was the vast majority of the ones I got to know personally. By all means, go sign up and get to know some of them and you'll see it's rarely the way they claim it to be.

 

Thanks for your kind words.

 

Thanks for sharing your experiences!

[Paragon]

All this talk, and not ONE single solitary mention about how we are designed to sexually respond to seeing or imagining our sexual partner have sexual relations with someone else--guys moreso than girls.

[AAlike]

The discussion of whether swinging is immoral or unnatural, or whether monogamy is, while very interesting, is not really the issue here.

 

The way I see it, if he brought this up to you because he thought you might be into it, or because he thought that he might be into it and wanted to see if you'd be agreeable, and you told him that it didn't make you comfortable and wouldn't be interested and then he let it go, I would think no harm done.

 

However, OP seemed to imply that her BF was insistent and pushy about it even after she had said that she wouldn't be comfortable with it. that is a bad sign, as it would be if he was urging her to do ANYTHING she is not comfortable with for his own benefit, sexual or otherwise.

 

I definitely don't agree that it is inherently wrong just to suggest it or that the suggestion itself is demeaning or objectifying to her. and although I personally would never be able to handle that sort of situation (or the reverse, FYI), nor would it really do much for me, I certainly don't think that there's anything wrong with a couple that chooses to practice anything with full disclosure.

 

and LOL at trying to define "love" - the most ill-defined concept that we have going right now!