Women and motherhood

[sweetjasmine]

You are spoilt bacause you obviously have too many options.

 

How can someone have too many options? That doesn't make sense.

 

Also who do you think is going to look after you in your old age?

 

The childfree couples I know are planning early for that.

 

yes other people's children that they have worked hard to bring up while you accumulate material wealth, have lie ins, go on foreign holidays and generally look after number one.

 

If by "other people's children" you mean the staff at retirement and nursing homes, those people are looking after patients who do have children who can't take care of their sick, old parents. How is that any different from a patient who doesn't have children?

 

And what's wrong with accumulating material wealth and going on vacation? Plenty of people with children do all of that. Plenty of people neglect their children and focus on themselves.

 

Also you are denying your parents the joy of grandchildren.

 

Parents have no right to tell their children that they want grandchildren. It's selfish and ridiculous for a parent to demand their child to have a baby for their sake.

[stillafool]

You are spoilt bacause you obviously have too many options. Also who do you think is going to look after you in your old age? yes other people's children that they have worked hard to bring up while you accumulate material wealth, have lie ins, go on foreign holidays and generally look after number one. Also you are denying your parents the joy of grandchildren. If I ever am blessed with a daughter(or son) and she said to me she was not having children by choice I would be really upset not just for me but for her becuase she is a cold fish.

 

I will look after and fund a "home" for myself. How selfish to only have children to have someone look after you in your old age. Save your money and look after your own self! Even if you have children they are not going to be able to support you when you get old. They aren't even going to have social security or pension income? Look how many old people who are in retirement homes who have loads of children who don't want to be bothered. I don't think a woman not wanting children is a "cold fish". Just because she doesn't want kids doesn't mean she doesn't want sex!:bunny:

[Thornton]

I think Arlene means that those who don't have children aren't producing the next generation of taxpayers, the taxpayers who will shoulder the burden of paying your state pension and healthcare etc when you're too old to take care of yourself, whose taxes will fund your free bus pass and any other benefits you may receive. People who don't have children aren't funding the cost of raising the next generation of taxpayers, but they still benefit from them in their old age.

 

I have to admit that I would also be very disappointed if my kids don't have kids - I'd never have any grandchildren to raise and love, and I'd basically have wasted my time raising my kids because my genetic line would end with them anyway and all the things I'd taught them would die with them. I never thought about it before, but I guess I see childless men as being a bit less sad than childless women, but not by much. From a scientific standpoint, if you don't reproduce yourself you've basically failed as a biological organism. I'd hate to die feeling that I was leaving nothing behind.

[Lizzie60]

I think this is a personal choice..

 

I totally respect a woman not wanting kids.. they are a lifetime 'sentence'..

[Thornton]

I totally respect a woman not wanting kids.. they are a lifetime 'sentence'..

 

I also totally respect anyone's choice not to have kids... but I don't think of them as a lifetime sentence! It's true that my mother will have me for the rest of her life - she'll always have someone to call when she's lonely, someone to help her when she needs it, someone to spend holidays with, someone to love and trust, someone to be her best friend until the day she dies. If you want to call that a lifetime sentence, fair enough. I'm not exactly a burden on her; she gets as much back out of the relationship as she puts in.

[sweetjasmine]

I think Arlene means that those who don't have children aren't producing the next generation of taxpayers, the taxpayers who will shoulder the burden of paying your state pension and healthcare etc when you're too old to take care of yourself, whose taxes will fund your free bus pass and any other benefits you may receive. People who don't have children aren't funding the cost of raising the next generation of taxpayers, but they still benefit from them in their old age.

 

I find that argument weird. There are plenty of people who have children they can't afford and receive help from government, and there are childfree/childless people who are contributing tax money for those programs.

 

If you look at government programs and people who receive assistance, whether it be a discounted senior citizen bus pass or tax breaks or food stamps, you can always find people who are contributing more than they're receiving, and people who are receiving more than they're contributing. I don't think "we need more taxpayers" is a solid argument for pressuring people to have children they don't want.

 

Besides, if we're going for the cost to society angle, the children people have consume a great deal of resources, and with the population constantly increasing, those limited resources are getting used up. By having children, you're contributing to serious environmental problems like pollution and depletion of resources.

 

I have to admit that I would also be very disappointed if my kids don't have kids - I'd never have any grandchildren to raise and love, and I'd basically have wasted my time raising my kids because my genetic line would end with them anyway and all the things I'd taught them would die with them. I never thought about it before, but I guess I see childless men as being a bit less sad than childless women, but not by much.

 

Those are all valid feelings.

 

It just bothers me when people force that sh-t on others or judge their choices. I want children, and I'll probably want grandchildren, but it's not my place to take issue with people who don't want the same for themselves.

 

From a scientific standpoint, if you don't reproduce yourself you've basically failed as a biological organism. I'd hate to die feeling that I was leaving nothing behind.

 

Well, from a biological standpoint, you've also failed as a biological organism if your child died and you were too old to have another, if you died before reaching sexual maturity, or if you're homosexual and don't have your own children. I don't think success/failure as a biological organism is all that great a metric for determining anything. To some people, it's very important, but others can be happy even though they might technically be failed biological organisms.

 

I've always thought that everyone leaves something behind. People live on in the memory of their family and friends, not just in the DNA of their children. But that's just my opinion.

[Thornton]

I guess I always had the feeling that as a reasonably intelligent person it was my responsibility to reproduce and create some decent human beings to carry on the race. Someone has to produce decent kids to counteract all the scum being produced by the dregs of society, otherwise the human race as a whole is going to begin devolving. It bothers me immensely that it's generally the stupidest, most useless layabouts who have the most kids and generally pee in the gene pool, while the intelligent people who are capable of thinking for themselves are the ones who often choose not to have children.

[Lizzie60]

I also totally respect anyone's choice not to have kids... but I don't think of them as a lifetime sentence! It's true that my mother will have me for the rest of her life - she'll always have someone to call when she's lonely, someone to help her when she needs it, someone to spend holidays with, someone to love and trust, someone to be her best friend until the day she dies. If you want to call that a lifetime sentence, fair enough. I'm not exactly a burden on her; she gets as much back out of the relationship as she puts in.

 

 

Didn't you see the smily.. (I was joking about the sentence)

[ProudMumOf2]

I guess I always had the feeling that as a reasonably intelligent person it was my responsibility to reproduce and create some decent human beings to carry on the race. Someone has to produce decent kids to counteract all the scum being produced by the dregs of society, otherwise the human race as a whole is going to begin devolving. It bothers me immensely that it's generally the stupidest, most useless layabouts who have the most kids and generally pee in the gene pool, while the intelligent people who are capable of thinking for themselves are the ones who often choose not to have children.

 

That's a really silly reason to have children. You had children to service your own needs, not to "further the human race", it's utterly selfish to put that sort of responsibility on a child.

[Trialbyfire]

What do most people think about women choosing not to have children?

I think women who don't want children, shouldn't have children. There are enough piss poor parents in this world. Children are precious gifts, to be treasured as such.

[Taramere]

I guess I always had the feeling that as a reasonably intelligent person it was my responsibility to reproduce and create some decent human beings to carry on the race. Someone has to produce decent kids to counteract all the scum being produced by the dregs of society, otherwise the human race as a whole is going to begin devolving. It bothers me immensely that it's generally the stupidest, most useless layabouts who have the most kids and generally pee in the gene pool, while the intelligent people who are capable of thinking for themselves are the ones who often choose not to have children.

 

Mrs Duggar?

[stillafool]

 

 

...the intelligent people who are capable of thinking for themselves are the ones who often choose not to have children.

 

 

Well, there's your answer!

[Eve]

I am pro women's choice, but I still struggle to prevent myself thinking of childless women as crazy old cat ladies or sad old spinsters.

 

My experience is that they are cold bitch managers with nothing to show for their lives but a couple of degrees, a complicit hubby (who looks terrible), a nice house with lots of themed rooms and a couple of animals that they treat as though they are children.

 

.. I always find something not quite right about them - especially once they hit 55 or so.. but choice is a good thing.

 

Thinking about it.. nearly all of those who I have known who deliberately did not have children had had abortions in their youth and where in fact long term single rather than married.

 

Take care,

Eve xx

[Taramere]

My experience is that they are cold bitch managers with nothing to show for their lives but a couple of degrees, a complicit hubby (who looks terrible), a nice house with lots of themed rooms and a couple of animals that they treat as though they are children.

 

.. I always find something not quite right about them - especially once they hit 55 or so.. but choice is a good thing.

 

Thinking about it.. nearly all of those who I have known who deliberately did not have children had had abortions in their youth and where in fact long term single rather than married.

 

Take care,

Eve xx

 

Wow, Eve. Remind me not to take a bite out of any apple you offer. Perhaps it's time you paid a visit to the buddha for a spiritual detox.

 

When these women you're being so venomous about invited you into their homes, introduced you to their husbands - and, apparently, shared very sensitive details of their medical pasts with you, did they make the mistake of considering you to be a friend?

[Eve]

Wow, Eve. Remind me not to take a bite out of any apple you offer. Perhaps it's time you paid a visit to the buddha for a spiritual detox.

 

When these women you're being so venomous about invited you into their homes, introduced you to their husbands - and, apparently, shared very sensitive details of their medical pasts with you, did they make the mistake of considering you to be a friend?

 

 

They were former managers. Funny you should mention the compassion angle as they had very little for clients struggling with issues who had children. Hence, information about their histories usually came speckled within their opinions - professional and otherwise. Truly awful human beings.

 

Anyhow, I will let your tone to my comment pass this time. Mainly because I have no interest in you... thinking about it you do remind me of one of those managers in a strange abstract way.

 

Take care,

Eve xx

[Taramere]

 

They were former managers. Funny you should mention the compassion angle as they had very little for clients struggling with issues who had children. Hence, information about their histories usually came speckled within their opinions - professional and otherwise. Truly awful human beings.

 

Anyhow, I will let your tone to my comment pass this time. Mainly because I have no interest in you... thinking about it you do remind me of one of those managers in a strange abstract way.

 

Take care,

Eve xx

 

I'll bet I do. I hope they gave your passive aggression the short shrift it deserves.

[Woggle]

There are plenty of people who should not be parents that are so I have no issue with people choosing a childless life.

[Eve]

I'll bet I do. I hope they gave your passive aggression the short shrift it deserves.

 

Lets stick to the question at hand. I have no need nor interest in becoming defensive towards your line of enquiry.

 

Take care,

Eve xx

[Thornton]

My experience is that they are cold bitch managers with nothing to show for their lives but a couple of degrees, a complicit hubby (who looks terrible), a nice house with lots of themed rooms and a couple of animals that they treat as though they are children.

 

.. I always find something not quite right about them - especially once they hit 55 or so.. but choice is a good thing.

 

Thinking about it.. nearly all of those who I have known who deliberately did not have children had had abortions in their youth and where in fact long term single rather than married.

 

Take care,

Eve xx

 

My experience of childless women is similar, although I don't see them in such a negative way. My boss has no children; she studied for degrees and then a PhD, then a post-doc and a professor's job; now she's in her 40s and has a good career but no family other than her husband. Her husband seems like a nice man (if a little henpecked), but I wonder if he wanted children, or whose decision it was not to have them? They also have dogs which they treat like babies, and a beautiful home which is always immaculate and silent.

 

I have often wondered how their life works - do they socialise with other couples their age who have children, and do they have any feelings about probably being the only couple in their group of friends who don't have any kids? When she talks about her social life it always sounds like she and her husband are pretty isolated and they just do things together, and they're very involved in dog training and dog shows - perhaps that fills a gap in their lives? I know she focuses a great deal on her career and suffers terribly from stress, and I've wondered if she might have been happier stepping down her career a bit and staying home with kids for a while.

[Thornton]

There are plenty of people who should not be parents that are so I have no issue with people choosing a childless life.

 

The problem is that quite often the intelligent and stable people who would make good parents are the ones who make an informed decision not to have children, while the layabouts breed like flies and expect the taxpayer to support their badly behaved offspring.

[Eve]

My experience of childless women is similar, although I don't see them in such a negative way.

 

May I clarify that I dont see their choice in a negative way. Whether a person has children or not has no bearing on my life. What I have done is to highlight a higher likelihood of bitchiness/superiority complex in women as such who are childless and in management. I have seen this so often that its not even funny. My friends and I call them, 'women with dicks'..

 

 

Take care,

Eve xx

[burning 4 revenge]

May I clarify that I dont see their choice in a negative way. Whether a person has children or not has no bearing on my life. What I have done is to highlight a higher likelihood of bitchiness/superiority complex in women as such who are childless and in management. I have seen this so often that its not even funny. My friends and I call them, 'women with dicks'..

 

 

Take care,

Eve xx

Ive known some women with dicks, but I cant really picture any of them in upper management

[Eve]

Ive known some women with dicks, but I cant really picture any of them in upper management

 

Do you mean literally? I dont know if you are being serious.

 

The caring industry is absolutely full of women as such.

 

Take care,

Eve xx

[Els]

I think b4r was commenting more on uhh... women with real dicks. Not 'real women' 'with dicks'.

 

I dunno, actually, as a reasonably intelligent person it kinda strikes me that it negates all logic for people to want kids. Of course, I shall add the disclaimer that all of you did; I don't think poorly of people who do want kids, and I don't deny that we need good parents for the continuation of the human race.

 

But what substantial reason is there for ME to have kids? I doubt all the parents out there are so altruistic as to truly have children just because they want to contribute to the survival of our species. Why do so many people condemn themselves to the rat race of struggling through work that they may not even like all their lives (and I see so many of these, it's just sad), first to support themselves, and then to support their aging parents, and then to support their kids? The first two are pretty much unavoidable for the majority of the population, yes. But the latter? We could cut short the rat race so much earlier if we didn't need to earn additional income for 20 odd years. And by the time we're done with all that, we're usually too old and medically-impaired to truly enjoy life for more than a decade or so.

[Taramere]

What I have done is to highlight a higher likelihood of bitchiness/superiority complex in women as such who are childless and in management.

 

I think you've done the very opposite.