Women and motherhood

[stillafool]

It does make me wonder what kind of messages some of them give to their kids. Hopefully some of the spite being levelled against childless women is just a case of stressed out parents having to make big efforts to play nice and patient for the kids....then letting it all out on a message board.

 

I know it's hard to believe that women who are suppose to be so nurturing and kind are so filled with hate and bitterness.

[Taramere]

I know it's hard to believe that women who are suppose to be so nurturing and kind are so filled with hate and bitterness.

 

I can remember the mother of a friend, when I was in primary school, came across in that cosy, maternal "scoop all the kiddies in the world up in my arms and treat them all as my own" manner. Naturally, as a child who took people at face value, I thought she was lovely - and really cool too "call me (her first name) - not Mrs X. Think of me as a friend."

 

But it was a bit freaky to discover that just like any child my age, she loved to bitch about all of my friend's other friends - not to mention their mothers. It was no great surprise when another friend told me something spiteful she'd said about me and my family. She was just that kind of woman. Desperate to be liked by everyone, and to be perceived as this warm and nurturing figure who was better than everyone else's mother.

 

It was the first time I'd encountered an adult like that - ie who didn't know how to be an adult, and who really couldn't be trusted. I used to dread going round there, because she'd rabbit away cosily and bitchily about girls in my class who I liked....but because she was an adult, I didn't feel there was anything I could say.

 

Then I'd hear her telling my mother about how all X's friends loved to come and stay at her house, and how great she was with kids. One time another friend and I lurked on the staircase eavesdropping on our mothers talking about her. It was kind of a relief to realise they didn't buy into her crap about how all the kids adored her. It's really hard for children when they're placed under pressure to make a needy, immature adult feel like "everyone's favourite mum".

[sweetjasmine]

I have often wondered how their life works - do they socialise with other couples their age who have children, and do they have any feelings about probably being the only couple in their group of friends who don't have any kids? When she talks about her social life it always sounds like she and her husband are pretty isolated and they just do things together, and they're very involved in dog training and dog shows - perhaps that fills a gap in their lives? I know she focuses a great deal on her career and suffers terribly from stress, and I've wondered if she might have been happier stepping down her career a bit and staying home with kids for a while.

 

Let me rephrase that from the other perspective:

"I have often wondered how their lives work - do they socialize with other couples their age who don't have children, and do they have any feelings about probably being the only couple in their group of friends who has kids? When she talks about her social life it always sounds like she and her husband are pretty isolated and they just do things with the kids, and they're very involved in soccer practice and ballet lessons - perhaps that fills a gap in their lives? I know she focuses a great deal on her kids and suffers terribly from stress, and I've wondered if she might have been happier stepping down her family bit and going out for a while."

 

Although your tone is a bit condescending I think there is some truth to what you say about some childless women looking down on mothers and being a more selfish type of personality

 

That's funny. I've met a lot of mothers who had kids and wanted more because they liked the attention they got from an infant who absolutely needed them.

 

At least thats the way I saw it, but Im a bit bias I suppose. I still cant help seeing a bit of her in most of the childless women Ive met

 

Ya think?

 

A woman cannot be realized until she is a mother.

 

So a woman can't be realized if she's sterile? Women who can't have children aren't real women? Well, that's just f-ing beautiful. I love that nurturing, loving attitude.

[sb129]

I do not understand them and think they are lucky if they were able to have children. I might not get the chance and it saddens me and I feel those women who do ar had the chance and threw it away are spoilt.

 

Sigh. There have been some really nasty posts on this thread, and I am surprised to find that they have come from people who are parents or want to be parents. Most of the harsh judgments and comments have come from that camp, which I have found to be true IRL.

 

It seems that you are damned if you do and damned if you don't. Its a personal choice, one that shouldn't be judged by anyone.

There a millions of reasons why people choose not to have children, and that is their right as a human being.

 

 

It just bothers me when people force that sh-t on others or judge their choices. I want children, and I'll probably want grandchildren, but it's not my place to take issue with people who don't want the same for themselves.

 

Well, from a biological standpoint, you've also failed as a biological organism if your child died and you were too old to have another, if you died before reaching sexual maturity, or if you're homosexual and don't have your own children. I don't think success/failure as a biological organism is all that great a metric for determining anything..

 

Great post SJ.

 

 

Well, is because deep down they are frustrated.

 

A woman cannot be realized until she is a mother.

 

Women come to the world to be mothers. .

 

Well, how reassuring for the millions of women out there who are desperate to be mothers but can't be for whatever reason.

What a horrible thing to say.

 

 

Also I do find it odd that people think having a child is somehow the end to their problems. Can't achieve anything in life? Bored and lonely? Have a child - that's the answer to all your problems isn't it! Really strange way to view parenthood in my opinion.

 

I agree.

 

I think I am the only person to post on this thread who is currently pregnant, and I can assure you that in my experience at the current time, its a MINEFIELD of opinions and judgements, from before conception and beyond.

 

The minute we announced we were having a baby, there was an (audible) collective sigh of relief amongst our family. I have a cousin who has chosen not to have children, and we were compared to her and congratulated for not taking her path, which I think is appalling.

 

What if we had decided that we didn't want to have children either?

 

We have friends who are desperate for children who are jumping through all the hoops of IVF and its awful to spend time with them because I feel guilty for being pregnant and they think that we are looking down on them for not being pregnant.

 

We have friends who don't want children at all who feel the same way- that everyone else is having babies (and out of our circle of friends there will have been 10 babies born in 2009 and a few born early 2010) and that we judge them for that. Which we don't.

 

And then you get the pregnancy/mothers club which can be a very scary world too- competitive mothering is just :sick:

People pass judgment on you for how you conduct your pregnancy, for how much weight you gain, for where/ how you choose to give birth, for how you choose to bring up your child, whether you are going to go back to work, even for what NAPPIES you buy for your child. :rolleyes:

 

"Oh you MUST do this, you MUST do that, you MUSTN'T do this, etc etc blah blah"

I have been verbally crucified for the fact that I am going to be a working mother. Again, personal choice, nobody elses business but mine and my husbands.

 

I mean, I am all for sharing thoughts and opinions, but sometimes its overwhelming, and sometimes I wonder WTF kind of "exclusive" club membership I have signed up for.

Thankfully my closest friends who are also pregnant or new mothers feel the same way and we have made a deal with eachother to try and not judge eachother and simply support.

 

I will not apologise for occasionally feeling totally overwhelmed at the thought of being a mother, wondering if we have made the right decision, or worrying if we will be bad parents.

 

I am not under any illusions that this "amazing fulfilling experience" is also going to be frustrating, painful and I may not enjoy it all the time.

[Thornton]

Let me rephrase that from the other perspective:

"I have often wondered how their lives work - do they socialize with other couples their age who don't have children, and do they have any feelings about probably being the only couple in their group of friends who has kids? When she talks about her social life it always sounds like she and her husband are pretty isolated and they just do things with the kids, and they're very involved in soccer practice and ballet lessons - perhaps that fills a gap in their lives? I know she focuses a great deal on her kids and suffers terribly from stress, and I've wondered if she might have been happier stepping down her family bit and going out for a while."

 

It doesn't quite work from the other perspective. Couples with kids are still the norm rather than the exception, so a couple are unlikely to be the only ones in their group who have kids. The point I was making was that most couples do have kids, so I was wondering whether people without kids feel they fit into such social groups where they are the exception, or alternatively how they spend their time if they don't fit into such groups.

[sb129]

You can still socialise with adults regardless of whether you are a parent or not.

 

Thats what babysitters are for.

[Rudderless]

The point I was making was that most couples do have kids, so I was wondering whether people without kids feel they fit into such social groups where they are the exception, or alternatively how they spend their time if they don't fit into such groups.

 

101 uses for a child

 

Cure for boredom

Cure for unhappiness

Cure for loneliness

Saviour of humanity

Economic investment

Proof of success as a biological organism

Realisation of womanhood

Ideal care worker

Social accessory

 

 

Anything else anyone wants to add to this list of unhealthy expectations?

 

P.S. great post about the pregnancy sb.

[DefiningSilence]

I am childfree. I don't think there's a thing wrong with a woman or a man not wanting to have children. My fiance doesn't want children either.

 

The two greatest mentors in my life were also childfree by choice. One is my best friend still.

 

I grew up in a household that pounded into my head that women were put on this earth to do nothing but serve their husbands and pop out babies.

 

No thanks. I have better things to spend my time and money on.

 

And knowing that I could give a kid the same genetic syndrome that I have, that makes my life more painful then it should have to be, I'd rather not. Kid's are cruel. Why do I want to bring a human being into this world to be subjected to that?

[sb129]

I have no problem with people remaining child free.

 

Better that than people who get knocked up at the drop of a hat for the wrong reason IMO. (lol)

 

If I was to be brutally honest, I was less than ecstatic when I fell pregnant so quickly- I had half expected things to take longer (and hence give us more "preparation" time).

 

And our reason for starting to try was probably not the "perfect" reason either- my dad was dying of cancer and we wanted some good news to give the family.

We had always talked about kids, but I didn't think we would have one before our first wedding anniversary!

 

My dad has since died, and the baby's arrival is a great positive focus for my mum, which is nice.

 

As it stands, I DO feel good about the whole thing now. I am ready, it feels like a natural progression to have a child with my husband, but I am scared sh*tless at times, and no amount of people saying "It will be fine" or "its the most amazing experience ever" will alleviate that at the moment.

 

I also still have occasional pangs of jealousy when I see our child free friends still having a blast.

 

Doesn't make me less of a mother to be though.

[Trialbyfire]

These child/childless threads, tend to get vicious. Why?

 

I've seen horrible people who are or aren't parents. Having children or not, doesn't define you as a person.

 

As someone who has close friends, some childful, others childless, there's no reason why you can't retain friendships with people in either category.

 

I will admit that after reading this thread, it makes me glad that I don't have children, yet.

[sb129]

I don't know why they get so nasty. It seems strange to me.

 

Its all about personal choice, and I agree, you can maintain friendships with people regardless of your status as a parent.

[Taramere]

I don't know why they get so nasty. It seems strange to me.

 

I think it's because they can't or won't get themselves beyond the "good woman/bad woman, saint/witch" mentality. Black and white thinkers. If you respond to people like that rationally as opposed to in a heated and emotional manner, they'll write you off as being a "cold, unfeeling bitch". Which I find most peculiar - because I always thought that being unfeeling involved lacking empathy and consideration for other people's feelings.

 

It seems to me that a rational and measured approach is more empathic and considerate than a vicious, irrational one. But hey - I suppose that's my faulty, dysfunctional ice queen thinking at work.

[Nuala83]

I think it's comments such as "A woman can't be realized until she is a mother" and "If you don't have kids you've failed as a biological organism" that tend to get peoples backs up. The thread started off with most people saying something along the lines of 'each to their own' but there are a lot of women out there who feel threated by childfree women and will assume that they hate kids or that there's something wrong with them as women. I'd like to debunk the first myth by saying that I happen to like children and I've spent the last 3 years working as a primary school teacher. I happen to know a few childfree women that work in caring professions and I get very offended when it's sugested that I'm somehow less capable of love and human compassion that someone who has had children.

 

There are admitedly some childfree women out there who do hate children and perhaps they are cold and unfeeling but it doesn't take a genius in the law of averages to figure out that for every cold unfeeling 'non-parent' there is an equally cold unfeeling 'parent'. I think some of the hostility also stems from jealousy and narrow mindedness. A lot of people have children simply because it's the done thing. Some enjoy their role, some don't but I can't help detecting a note of jealousy from some of my friends with children when I tell them what I've been up to because their freedom is now resticted whereas mine knows no bounds.

 

I wonder if some people ever wished for the alternative but were too scared to dissapoint or stand out from the crowd. As for being sad and lonely in old age, how many old people do you see in nursing homes abandoned by children who never visit. Loneliness in old age is something we've all got to look forward to...sadly! Loneliness can strike anyone wether they be married, single, with children, childfree, whatever. The childfree people I know have much more time to nurture their friendships AND we have more time to babysit for our friends who have children should we so feel a pag of pity for our poor stressed out pals who wanna get away from their sprogs for a few hours

 

Also for all you out there who say a life without children is 'empty', by saying that you're putting yourselves down. After all you had a life before your children came along didn't you? You weren't lonely or sad or empty inside were you?

[stillafool]

.

 

I think some of the hostility also stems from jealousy and narrow mindedness. A lot of people have children simply because it's the done thing. Some enjoy their role, some don't but I can't help detecting a note of jealousy from some of my friends with children when I tell them what I've been up to because their freedom is now resticted whereas mine knows no bounds.

 

I've noticed this also. I've had co-workers who were actually angry that I slept late on Saturday mornings. She was complaining that her kids woke her up at 6:00AM to make pancakes. I would think this would be a joy for her since she wanted to be a mommy. I couldn't understand her anger at me because at the time I didn't even have a husband but she still resented that I didn't have kids.

 

As for being sad and lonely in old age, how many old people do you see in nursing homes abandoned by children who never visit. Loneliness in old age is something we've all got to look forward to...sadly! Loneliness can strike anyone wether they be married, single, with children, childfree, whatever.

 

Unfortunately this is so true. I visit my aunt in her nursing home and BTW she was a retired schoolteacher who never married or had children. I visit her once a week and her two other nieces visit her once a week. There are residents who have children that never visit them. I even take time out to go over and talk to these people. So actually my aunt who does not have kids gets more visitors than the people who have kids. It really is so sad. I have a friend who has 12 other siblings and guess where their Mom lives - you guessed it - a nursing home.

 

Also for all you out there who say a life without children is 'empty', by saying that you're putting yourselves down. After all you had a life before your children came along didn't you? You weren't lonely or sad or empty inside were you?

 

Exactly. Also the children are not going to live there forever (if you've done your job right anyway) and then you will be alone again.

[Taramere]

I get very offended when it's sugested that I'm somehow less capable of love and human compassion that someone who has had children.

 

You may as well see the comedy in it. The fake sweetness and compassion involved, combined with the venom against other women who don't spend life writhing around life in "I'm not worthy", self-flagellating victim style for the fact that they dared to make different choices in life. It reminds me of that scene in Carrie. The one where her God-fearing, endlessly pious mother recalls Carrie's conception, orgasms over the outrage of it all, swears like a navvy after 20 pints of beer...then gets crucified by a set of knives.

 

God bless all.

[stillafool]

:lmao:I still love that movie!

[sb129]

I do know what you mean re: people who resent the childfree/less, obviously we are still technically childfree at the present time, and we have had some great childfree times.

 

If someone moans about having to get up at 6am to tend to their child- well tough sh*t, most people know that lie ins are a thing of the past once you are a parent.

 

We recently got a puppy as a precursor to having a baby, and obviously its not the same as a baby, but its still another living thing that we are responsible for, and we had a few sleepless nights with her, we have had to restructure our days so as she isn't left alone for too long, and she has made several messes on our new carpet- BUT we knew what we were getting ourselves in for when we got her, there is no point whinging about the loss of sleep or carpet- we made the choice to get a puppy. Its not her fault- she is still a baby. (and is training up nicely btw)

 

If you choose to be a parent, you shouldn't resent others who haven't chosen the same path as you- and vice versa. I am all for the odd gripe about things, but its not fair to take it out on someone else just because they don't have to deal with what you deal with.

 

I work with someone who has four children, and the way she carries on they are the biggest crosses to bear ever, she is constantly making negative comments about how she hasn't had enough sleep/time etc, and whats worse, she keeps telling me that my life is over, and that hers never really began thanks to having kids (her experiences are always much worse than everyone elses)

 

Quite draining really, but I think its her personality type. Luckily I haven't been put off having children by her because its a bit late now!

[WalkInThePark]

I am always very surprised that people automatically presume that not having children is a choice.

In my case, I don't see it as a choice. I am a responsible person and I only wanted to have children in the right context. For me that means: a steady relationship, sufficient financial resources and enough personal serenity. The last two things I only acquired when I was nearly 40. The first thing I still haven't found. Yes, I have had relationships but they did not offer the harmony I wanted to feel safe to have a child. To be honest, I have the feeling that I have changed and developed so strongly since I was 20, that I only now feel ready to really have a good relationship.

 

I am in my forties now so I really don't think I still want a child. I feel too old. This said, I don't exclude anything. It all depends on how my life evolves. For me a child is a result of a relationship not the aim. I have never lived my life with a rigid scenario in my head, like "by the time I am 35, I want to be married and have 2 children". My life has developed in such a way that I don't have children. I will not moan all the time about it but try to accept and embrace my life the way it is.

 

In hindsight, I do realize that my cautious approach definitely has to do with the fact that I have seen how my mother perceived motherhood as a burden. And consequently she was often bloody mean with her kids. I did not want to become that kind of mother.

 

Clichés galore in this thread and actually everytime there is this discussion. The cold, selfish childless woman versus the warm, nurturing mother. The career bitch who does not want to make time for children versus the stay at home mom with her children. Has anyone ever thought about the fact that some women maybe have opted for a career because they did not have children or a relationship?

[Taramere]

I am always very surprised that people automatically presume that not having children is a choice.

In my case, I don't see it as a choice. I am a responsible person and I only wanted to have children in the right context. For me that means: a steady relationship, sufficient financial resources and enough personal serenity. The last two things I only acquired when I was nearly 40. The first thing I still haven't found. Yes, I have had relationships but they did not offer the harmony I wanted to feel safe to have a child. To be honest, I have the feeling that I have changed and developed so strongly since I was 20, that I only now feel ready to really have a good relationship.

 

I am in my forties now so I really don't think I still want a child. I feel too old. This said, I don't exclude anything. It all depends on how my life evolves. For me a child is a result of a relationship not the aim. I have never lived my life with a rigid scenario in my head, like "by the time I am 35, I want to be married and have 2 children". My life has developed in such a way that I don't have children. I will not moan all the time about it but try to accept and embrace my life the way it is.

 

In hindsigh, I do realize that my cautious approach definitely has to do with the fact that I have seen how my mother perceived motherhood as a burden. And consequently she was often bloody mean with her kids. I did not want to become that kind of mother.

 

Clichés galore in this thread and actually everytime there is this discussion. The cold, selfish childless woman versus the warm, nurturing mother. The career bitch who does not want to make time for children versus the stay at home mom with her children. Has anyone ever thought about the fact that some women maybe have opted for a career because they did not have children or a relationship?

 

Excellent post. Unfortunately, I think that childless women will always be targeted in that manner as part of general pressure being applied to women to make certain choices. The less say a woman has had in being childless, the more unfair and unkind that kind of targeting is....but that doesn't mean it will ever stop.

 

People find all kinds of spurious justification for doing it. For instance, if they once had a single, childless female boss who they didn't get along with that makes it acceptable, in their eyes, to transfer the ill feeling onto any other childless women.

 

I think you and several other women on this thread, have given very good illustrations, using personal examples, to counter some of the venom....but why should you have to? Why should anyone have to give up details about sensitive, private matters in an attempt (usually futile, in any event) to persuade those people to be a little bit less ignorant? Whatever the reasons are for any woman being childless - whether through choice, circumstances or a bit of both, those same ignorant individuals will perceive those reasons as negatively (spiteful judgements about the voluntarily childless or spiteful pity for those who are childless for more circumstantial reasons) as they need to in order to feel good about themselves.

[stillafool]

We recently got a puppy

 

Is that her in the picture? She is adorable. I'd get up at 5AM to take care of her.

[sb129]

Yes, she is adorable. And quite..... energetic! We took her to her first puppy school yesterday. Which was an interesting experience. She sleeps till 7am now, which is good.

 

Walkinthepark- good post, and yes, you are right, some women are childless/free due to circumstances rather than choice. I fully appreciate that, and but for a few circumstances of my own, it could just as easily have been me in that situation.

 

I have several single friends in this situation, who are worried that time may be running out for them. They don't deserve judgement or pity- that just makes the ill feeling between groups even worse.

They also don't deserve to be patronised by women with children assuring them that "their time will come".

Sadly, many are.

 

I am still really disappointed in how judgemental and rude this thread has been- it isn't a representation of my own experiences, but it seems to be a representation of people heres experiences, and I feel bad for that.

[sb129]

PS- my own boss is an alpha female, uber- Mum, who finished work a week before she gave birth to each of her children and went back to work 6 weeks afterwards.

 

Scary combination!

 

Quite a bit of pressure on me to do the same.... but am standing firm.

Am being judged enough for going back to work at all as it is!

[aznprincess]

Women who do not want children should not get married because unity of a man and a woman is made to bear children. I do respect women who dont want children though, its a personal choice and they should not be condemned for it.

[Onecontent]

I decided at 18, after being a perfectly dreadful camp counselor, to never have children. I decided not to ever marry at age 13. At age 31 I learned I was infertile. It took me 15 minutes to get over it. There was no point in mourning over what I did not want in the first place. If anything I am walking in God's design for my life.

 

I fail to understand why some fertile women are such nasty, judgemental, self righteous bitches. If I am as self absorbed as these women think I am, I would make a terrible mother. I would hope that recognition of constitional unsuitabilty for motherhood would appreciated.

 

My 5 time mommy sister-in-law probably thinks I am a flake and she is partially right. I have schizoid personality disorder and thus do not have the emotional tools to be a good mother or wife.

 

I am the "cold fish" that a previous poster alluded to. How all you "hot fish" have so little to do with your time (or spouses) that you have time to belittle me is a mystery to me. Why would people condemn emotionally cold, fiscally precarious, unmarried women who do not have sex and who do not want children? If anything we are the type of women who should have neither!

[NotKelly]

I'm with you, Onecontent.

 

If God "meant" all women to be mothers then he would have made us all go into heat cycles like animals do. No brains... just uteruses.

 

I don't see anyone saying that men are "meant" to be fathers. Well, that is what their penises are "for" isn't it? why the double standard?

 

I knew when I was 10 or 11 that I would not be a very good mother. I never felt the desire to have children. Why not leave it to the women who want to do it and would be good at it?

 

Oh, and I find the term "childfree" to be obnoxious and don't know why people are proud to use it. "Not a mom" is how I prefer to describe myself.

 

Personally, mothers make better employee managers. They are used to giving orders. I find non-mom women to be more timid about giving orders and maybe that makes some of them bitchy because they feel they don't know what to do.

 

Another thing I dislike is the assertion that "having kids makes you a better person." It does not. For starters, parents are among the most selfish people on the planet. They have to be in order to protect their offspring. They will run you over in order to protect their child and advance their child's welfare and prospects. You don't find many non-parents in the toy store at Christmas beating each other up over a hard-to-find toy. All having children does is make you more wrapped up in YOUR child. Which is fine and good, but don't try to sell it as an all-consuming love for mankind that non-parents aren't capable of!