Why do men look at other women?!

[harmfulsweetz]

...

 

Lets get something straight, I NEVER claimed to be inside anyone’s head. What a false bullhockey statement to make.

 

Secondly, you just repeated everything I said lol! He could just be looking at her not thinking anything else or he could be looking at her thinking all kinds of different things about her. That is the reality. I said EXACTLY the same thing. And it's probably pretty honest that sometimes he just looks and that's it and other times he is lusting for her inside his head. And you have no idea when that is happening. So even if he IS just looking at another woman and then completely forgetting she exsist the next moment, it is VERy realistic that he is taking the image of her home with him as well.

 

Whenever this topic gets brought up, and it gets brought up alot for a reason, alot of people tell the women that struggle with this issue that the man ISN”T AT ALL thinking about these other women in any other terms them objectively noticing her beauty. And that he is soon forgetting her with a snap of the fingers. And that isn’t the complete truth. That might happen sometimes. But he very well could be thinking about this other women in all forms of ways. Most women are okay with her man noticing another woman if it’s more objective. When it turns into sexual lust or admiration to the point that he wants to sleep with another women, even if he is just thinking about what he wants, that is what bothers most women more.

 

The irony is you repeated exactly what I said.

 

 

 

 

I really have no idea what you mena by "ingenuine men". Or why you keep lamenating that phrase. My point is that alot of people hold the idea that a man doesn’t need to control his “sexual” “natural” impluses but a woman should control her emotional ones. That is why the message here is that it's okay for men to look, and women should curb out they feel about it. Why so many people come here trying to get the women that are bothered by it to "accept it". Or why some people here try to spin it as being a completely good thing that your man is oggling other women.

 

 

 

You want to sell fluff and feel good messages instead of being 100% honest about the ugly reality at times. And you want to attack me rather then discuss the very realistic points I brought up.

 

 

----------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

Spare me the over the top "I got better things to worry about line". Women and men both have "natural" hormone driven desires. To give justification for a man's natural hormone driven desire to look and tell another woman that her natural hormone drive desire to be bothered by it is wasting time, but his isn't, is hypocritical. Don't you think men should have more important things to worry about then oggling other women? Sorry, buy my female response to be bothered by his looking and hurt by it is no less wrong or not justified then you seem to think his looking is.

 

 

 

 

 

I am sorry but this has been explained to you several times and you continue to lanmenate on an untruth. This isn't a matter of just noticing someone else is attractive. This isn't about asking for perfection. THis is about asking for more self control that I think men are capable of, then they do give.

 

 

 

Simplely noticing someone isn't offensive. Lusting after, thinking about being inimate with them, comparing their body..taking in the moment..maybe even taking home the idea of her is.

 

So you define healthy by the partner noticing other people so that they make the other person feel jealous or hurt?

 

 

 

 

No. You said all men were sleaze..i never did. I am more honest and realistic about what some men can be thinking. Its not always pretty but it is honesty. I don't buy into the fake ideal that all men are so into their partners that they never have bad thoughts about them or think about being with other women. There is alot of down-playing about what goes on in the male mind that people want to admit to. ANd I think you understand this but fear to admit it.

 

 

 

 

And that is the exact mentality that is so hypocritical. It's okay for guys to look, that's nature. But it's not okay for a woman to feel upset over it. And if she does feel upset, she needs to learn to curb and manage it while he can play out his fantasies over and over again when the next woman walks by. THAT is the exactly mentality that berates women's very natural hurt feelings over his looking and defends a man. Sorry. But that is completely unjust.

I never said it wasn't ok for a woman to get upset over it. And no, I never said all men were sleaze, most aren't. I'm saying if you constantly generalize a behaviour which is natural to be wrong and sleazy of all men, all men should curb it, then you may as well be a hermit. It's primordial, so what? If you're honest, if it's so in a woman's nature to get emotional and jealous over such a thing, how come, by your standards, men can't do what's natural to them? Often, it's the man who actually has to change their ways-no porn etc to fulfill some strange ideal women want where they are the only object of their man's desires. Unrealistic or what.

 

Anyway, back to original thread, done with responding to you until you actually get what people are saying.

Dina, in your other posts, you seem to have a bubble of insecurity about you, like you think any female in his presence is a threat. They aren't. Being jealous and insecure will do more damage to your relationship, than these women. In life, men will come across thousands of women, some attractive, some drop dead gorgeous, and others not so attractive. But remember, he must have found you attractive, to be with you now.

[Miad's Princess]

You know the drama here that a certain someone is creating is getting tiring the op has probably already decided how she will deal with her problem with the useful advice she already got (hence she hasnt been posting lately)

[Jersey Shortie]

Yup, your right. But where will that viewpoint get you? NOWHERE. Everyone who's reading this post, let me let you in on a little secret, and it's the NUMBER ONE WAY TO SABOTAGE a relationship of ANY kind, especially romantic--you ATTRIBUTE your partner's behavior to a BAD INTENTION. Jersey, that's exactly what your FOCUSING on here--the negative. You say you just want to point it out? Why? To be fair and REALISTIC? For what purpose? For what end? How is it serving Dina, the OP of this thread? It's not...You want to play reality check--but no one here wants to play because it gets you NOWHERE except stomping your feet saying "Well it COULD be true." If you are in a relationship and you think it could be true that's the case, or think it IS the case, then you (you as in a collective you) should get OUT of it because there are deeper issues that need to be addressed.

 

So I am right but because the point of view isn't always pretty, or kind, we should all pretend it doesn't happen? I am confused as to what you are trying to say here. Is that what you think is best? For Dina or women in general to live with their heads in the clouds about what is really going on? You agree that I am right in that paragraph but it seems to me that you want to give the advice that we shold live with our heads in the clouds about the truth because it isn't pretty or nice. Which is exactly the point, the point is that you no one wants to live a false life thinking your partner is one way when they aren't. How does it serve Dina, or any woman, to pretend that everything is kittens and rainbows? How is that "stomping your feet"? Being realistic and honest about what could very well be going on is now "stomping your feet"? Being bothred about the truth about what could be going on is "stomping your feet"? Do you think it's best if we all assume that our guy is only platonically thinking about these women while he, in his head, is physically bedding them? I don't see who that is best for. There isn't one woman that wnats to be made into the joke because of another woman. And I think one of the reasons that women are bothered by their men looking at other women it makes her feel like she is being used or unimportant or the joke.

 

 

Very well could be...That's what you said...How do you know? You DON'T!!

 

Second bold quote: Since I assume you want to contribute a SOLUTION to the problem above instead of just POINTING it out, what SPECIFICALLY do you suggest to do to SOLVE this bothersome problem, Jersey? Let's start moving our discussion in a more positive direction here

 

I totally agree that a woman doesn't know what is running through her man's head when he is looking at another woman. And that is what leaves women concerned and feeling vunerable. I do know that men aren't always looking at other women platonically for a few seconds then moving on their day. Sometimes yes, but sometimes no and we have no way to tell those times from when a woman catches his interest. So if a man is looking and we see him looking, it's natural to assume he is having some thoughts of her. I know that at some point, there are other women that catch their interest more then just and objective "she is pretty", and think about bedding other women in all manners of ways. I wish men would give women more respect and not lie to them and make it seem like it's only ever "platonic". I wish they would use more self control.

 

As for soloving the problem, I have pointed out my solution many times. I think that a little more self control is in order and instead of focusing and wondering about the women you don't have, redirecting your attention and focus to the woman you do have. Sincerely. Not just making her feel like you are but really doing it. Not just making the show good at face value, but really giving your effort value by doing it during the times she can see and when she can't. Those are the times that really matter. Doing the right thing when she can't see your doing it.

 

 

You keep relentlessly pointing out the NEGATIVE and calling it realistic. But you've never said anything constructive yet about how we can get past this, besides pointing out that men should control it more...Come on now...

 

You asked me a certain question. The question was not "how do we solve this". I responded to the exact question you asked. Don't hop, skip and twist your comments around to suit your own personal agenda the minute it suits you and ignore my very honest, realistic and intelligent comments and response to the exact question you asked, just because you don't like the ugly reality that can realistically be true.

 

 

50% of your points are based off of dangerous PERSONALIZED generalizations.

 

I didn't realize you did market research on me. I am flattered but clearly, your stastics are made up.

 

I haven't read one single positive and constructive solution offered by you yet! Sell fluff? What fluff? And feel good messages--you're against positive messages I espouse in order to give someone a positive and a self-confident purview?

 

I think if men used more self control and re-directed their attention to where it should be would be best.

 

I am not against positive messages. I am against not being realistic about the uglier sides of the situation and not wanting to address those points because they aren't pretty and take more work and makes men admit things that they rather not admit is true.

 

Dina, has Jersey helped you in any way with any of her posts in this thread? If so, please deliniate.

 

I wasn't the one that said this if that's what you were thinking.

 

Here's what I want you to do--it's a simple two-step action. First, identify the problem, whatever you happen to think it is. Then, immediately after, propose a solution. Rules: don't go off on a tangent, don't express things in a negative way (ie, the solution would NOT be for men to just keep doing this...that's a negative form.) Keep it positive.

 

If I wanted to be dictated over I would move to China. This is a message board where people are allowed to respond in the manner they best see fit. It's a conversation, not a dictatorship where your allowed to warrent what way you want people's thoughts and comments to go. Nothing I've said hasn't been on topic. Here is what *I* want *you* to do, learn to talk to people and hold a conversation then just lecture.

 

 

I won't want to address ANYTHING else you say besides that question and solution you post--if you decide to try and move this discussion to a more positive and value offering place. If you don't and would rather address my post and keep trying to "keep it real" be my guest, but I think most readers will get weary of it very soon if they haven't already...

 

I've addressed many points. You're the one that has issues addressing certain points, and are quite good at talking around them. If readers are weary of it, they don't have to read it. It's a message board. Some things garner coversation more then others. People are free to particpate or not.

[Jersey Shortie]

I'm saying if you constantly generalize a behaviour which is natural to be wrong and sleazy of all men, all men should curb it, then you may as well be a hermit. It's primordial, so what?

 

You should try using your own vocabularly instead of parroting others. I don't think being attracted to other women is wrong. I think living under the guise that "i'm a man" and therefor ogle anything that sparks my interest that walks by while I have another female partner, is. Huge difference bewteen that and what your saying.

 

 

If you're honest, if it's so in a woman's nature to get emotional and jealous over such a thing, how come, by your standards, men can't do what's natural to them?

 

That's exactly my point. I understand it's "natural" to think other people are attractive and it's "natural" to get upset. What I think needs to happen on both sides is more self control out of respect for your partner and refocusing your attention on them. I don't lash out into an argument evertime I see a man I am with look at another woman, even though it really hurts. I wish men would use more self control instead of using the fact that they are men as justification enough for some sexual behaviors.

 

Often, it's the man who actually has to change their ways-no porn etc to fulfill some strange ideal women want where they are the only object of their man's desires. Unrealistic or what.

 

That's an entirely different subject then the one being discussed and I don't want to get too deep in that one but not looking at porn is not unrealistic or strange. But ironically you condemn it as so while you encourage the fantasy that is exactly that itself to men..strange and idealistic. Irony.

 

Anyway, back to original thread, done with responding to you until you actually get what people are saying.

 

Lol. So when someone disagrees you shut the door on differeing opinions and have a tiny tantrum.

 

Dina, in your other posts, you seem to have a bubble of insecurity about you, like you think any female in his presence is a threat. They aren't. Being jealous and insecure will do more damage to your relationship, than these women. In life, men will come across thousands of women, some attractive, some drop dead gorgeous, and others not so attractive. But remember, he must have found you attractive, to be with you now.

 

And while he is with her, he will be thinking and wishing abotu all the othe women he could be with. He will also be thinking about how much hotter alot of them are then her.

 

Again the irony is people don't like when i generalize about the possible negative things going on but it's okay to generalize about the possible positive things they want to think is going on even if that might not be true.

[harmfulsweetz]

No actually, I'm getting and so are many others, quite tired of trying to have any kind of reasonable conversation with someone like yourself, Jersey.

 

You don't listen to reason, only the negative thoughts which must perpetuate around in your head, fine by me. Live a negative, and miserable life if you must. Just saying...negativity begets negativity.

 

I like to be realistic-my man ain't gonna think about me 100% of the time, I'm real to that, and I won't condemn that as bad. Why? Because his thoughts are only thoughts, not actions. I don't think of my bf 100% either. Being realistic and being negative are two entirely different things, and you are simply negative. In your previous posts, you have stated that simply 'noticing' (your word) is bad in your book, and it's a woman's right to lay down that law (ha). Hows about not living under the guise of that line you like to use so much 'I'm a man', let's use "I'm human, I have eyes." Women do it too, we just hide it a touch better, or maybe men don't care so much as we do. Some men care more, but some don't.

 

If you trusted your partner 95% (I don't think anyone can trust someone 100%), why would it be an issue? Most trust issues boil down to lack of communication, and lack of self esteem. And often, these issues manifest themselves in jealous tantrums over something essentially so minuscule. Crazy to me, I'm not saying at all, if a man (or woman for that matter) overdoes the looking and basically drools with jaw to the floor, that that is acceptable, and should be condoned. No, that's disrespectful, but simply noticing attractive women, and maybe having the odd thought, (how do you know anyway? Do you have a mind scanner in there?) isn't bad. It's normal.

 

Not everyone looks at their R's in such bloody negative lights! I trust my man, I trust his attraction to me, I trust my instincts. And men, typically, don't judge in the 'she's hotter than my gf' line, they think 'oh she's hot.' Many women are hot to men for different reasons, and equally hot too. Fact of the matter is, he wouldn't actually be in an R with someone he didn't find attractive, in their own right.

 

And while he is with her, he will be thinking and wishing abotu all the othe women he could be with. He will also be thinking about how much hotter alot of them are then her.

Course he will, Jersey. Because you know every man's thoughts, and wishes, and desires. Get real.

[Paragon]

So I am right but because the point of view isn't always pretty, or kind, we should all pretend it doesn't happen? I am confused as to what you are trying to say here. Is that what you think is best? For Dina or women in general to live with their heads in the clouds about what is really going on? You agree that I am right in that paragraph but it seems to me that you want to give the advice that we shold live with our heads in the clouds about the truth because it isn't pretty or nice. Which is exactly the point, the point is that you no one wants to live a false life thinking your partner is one way when they aren't. How does it serve Dina, or any woman, to pretend that everything is kittens and rainbows? How is that "stomping your feet"? Being realistic and honest about what could very well be going on is now "stomping your feet"? Being bothred about the truth about what could be going on is "stomping your feet"? Do you think it's best if we all assume that our guy is only platonically thinking about these women while he, in his head, is physically bedding them? I don't see who that is best for. There isn't one woman that wnats to be made into the joke because of another woman. And I think one of the reasons that women are bothered by their men looking at other women it makes her feel like she is being used or unimportant or the joke.

 

I totally agree that a woman doesn't know what is running through her man's head when he is looking at another woman. And that is what leaves women concerned and feeling vunerable. I do know that men aren't always looking at other women platonically for a few seconds then moving on their day. Sometimes yes, but sometimes no and we have no way to tell those times from when a woman catches his interest. So if a man is looking and we see him looking, it's natural to assume he is having some thoughts of her. I know that at some point, there are other women that catch their interest more then just and objective "she is pretty", and think about bedding other women in all manners of ways. I wish men would give women more respect and not lie to them and make it seem like it's only ever "platonic". I wish they would use more self control.

 

As for soloving the problem, I have pointed out my solution many times. I think that a little more self control is in order and instead of focusing and wondering about the women you don't have, redirecting your attention and focus to the woman you do have. Sincerely. Not just making her feel like you are but really doing it. Not just making the show good at face value, but really giving your effort value by doing it during the times she can see and when she can't. Those are the times that really matter. Doing the right thing when she can't see your doing it.

 

You asked me a certain question. The question was not "how do we solve this". I responded to the exact question you asked. Don't hop, skip and twist your comments around to suit your own personal agenda the minute it suits you and ignore my very honest, realistic and intelligent comments and response to the exact question you asked, just because you don't like the ugly reality that can realistically be true.

 

I didn't realize you did market research on me. I am flattered but clearly, your stastics are made up.

 

I think if men used more self control and re-directed their attention to where it should be would be best.

 

I am not against positive messages. I am against not being realistic about the uglier sides of the situation and not wanting to address those points because they aren't pretty and take more work and makes men admit things that they rather not admit is true.

 

I wasn't the one that said this if that's what you were thinking.

 

If I wanted to be dictated over I would move to China. This is a message board where people are allowed to respond in the manner they best see fit. It's a conversation, not a dictatorship where your allowed to warrent what way you want people's thoughts and comments to go. Nothing I've said hasn't been on topic. Here is what *I* want *you* to do, learn to talk to people and hold a conversation then just lecture.

 

I've addressed many points. You're the one that has issues addressing certain points, and are quite good at talking around them. If readers are weary of it, they don't have to read it. It's a message board. Some things garner coversation more then others. People are free to particpate or not.

 

I really wish you could just think deeper about the things I said to you...And what makes me most disconcerted is you FAILED, by CHOICE, to DISREGARD the most important thing I said, which was to get the discussion back on track and keep it simple. State the problem, state the solution, then move on. All else is WORTHLESS in this convo. Sure you don't HAVE to listen to me, sure this is a message board and you can respond how you see fit, but you've made it apparent you just like to hear yourself talk (or perhaps see yourself type would be a more appropriate phrase in this case). For example, you've went on your crusade about how we need to be 'realistic' and when I asked why you kept bringing it up, for what end, you answered my question with NUMEROUS questions--not answering MY question.

 

You've said QUITE a lot in this thread...The problem here is, I haven't heard of anything that you've said actually HELPING anyone, which worries me--and don't get me wrong, i'm not making any negative comments about you as a person or even the rest of your posts, JUST ONLY the ones in this thread. I'd never want to quell your 'right' to respond how you see fit, but when no one is saying how valuable your words are to the topic at hand or no one is agreeing, or no one is saying hey that makes sense, or no is saying hey that helps me, I think that's a sign to forget about the way YOU want to respond and respond thinking about others first. This means offering them some kind of value that you KNOW will actually ELICIT some kind of positive feedback and help faciliate the overall process of them becoming better equipped to handle the situation at hand.

 

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming.

 

PS, HarmfulSweetz, you have a good head on your shoulders

[whiteberry]

Because that is normal to be attracted with someone else even if you're in a relationship already. The only bad thing is if you nurse the feeling and let it grow...

[Jersey Shortie]

I really wish you could just think deeper about the things I said to you...And what makes me most disconcerted is you FAILED, by CHOICE, to DISREGARD the most important thing I said...

 

I have the same wishes for you as well.

 

 

State the problem, state the solution, then move on.

 

You asked me what I thought the solution was. I gave it. You made no further comments directly to it acknowledging the response even though I answered your question.

 

Sure you don't HAVE to listen to me, sure this is a message board and you can respond how you see fit, but you've made it apparent you just like to hear yourself talk (or perhaps see yourself type would be a more appropriate phrase in this case).

 

Paragon, what does this have to do with discussing the topic at hand? This therad isn't about giving each other critques. I am trying to discuss the topic. I am unclear what you are trying to do.

 

For example, you've went on your crusade about how we need to be 'realistic' and when I asked why you kept bringing it up, for what end, you answered my question with NUMEROUS questions--not answering MY question.

 

I asked questions, I gave answers. I have take the time to answer your questions and I can see that you do not want to offer the same respect and discussion. That's your choice. But it's strange to expect your questions to be answered and discussed and to casterate others who pose other good questions. Do you think that women should live with their heads in the clouds and false ideals created in their minds about how their men are behaviing and treating them? Would that be a better solution for you? Why do you insist in personally critiquing me instead of addressing the topic?

 

You've said QUITE a lot in this thread...The problem here is, I haven't heard of anything that you've said actually HELPING anyone,

 

I think open free dialogue and sharing of opinions helps everyone. Not carefully communisitic comments and rules set up to narrowly define what should or shouldn't be said to best lead people to one conclusion.

 

I'd never want to quell your 'right' to respond how you see fit...

 

I'm glad to see you've change your mind to appriopiately work within a community of poeple with different ideas being exchanged instead of insisting on going forth with trying to make people respond in the manner *you* wish they would.

 

, but when no one is saying how valuable your words are to the topic at hand or no one is agreeing, or no one is saying hey that makes sense, or no is saying hey that helps me, I think that's a sign to forget about the way YOU want to respond and respond thinking about others first. This means offering them some kind of value that you KNOW will actually ELICIT some kind of positive feedback and help faciliate the overall process of them becoming better equipped to handle the situation at hand.

 

Of course my words are valuable. My words make logical sense. My words make people think and debate and consider things. People wouldn't bother commenting on my posts if they didn't see some of the truth in them. My posts aren't out there. To claim they are would be fool hardy.

 

I've talked to many women in real life who have expressed many of the opinions I have shared. Don't doubt there aren't many women that agree with how I see things as a woman as well. My point is to also produce a better solution. However, I would like to approach it with more honesty and self honesty about the situation then glossed over Candy Land comments that make women think something is true that just might not be.

 

Paragon, you preach about being direct, simple on the topic but go off on personal tangents on your opinion of me rather then being open and direct in discussing the topic at hand. That's not very helpful or productive. You could have spent more time being an articulate adult discussing the topic at hand with me, even if you disagree. But you choose to laminate on personal attacks instead just because you didn't like the honesty and logical in my posts. You would have more substance if you were able to back up my posts with counter arguments. At best, you wasted the time of the OP, myself and the other posters giving me an evulation based on your personal feelings then directly addressing the topic.

[northstar1]

 

People wouldn't bother commenting on my posts if they didn't see some of the truth in them

.

 

 

Not necessarily. People tend to reply to your posts because they find them incongruous with their own views.

[Paragon]

Jersey, NOTHING in your last post made ANY logical sense!! It really scares me that you are completely OBLIVIOUS to the errors you are making and the holes in the viewpoints you are declaring......Perhaps someone else who's been reading our banter will chime in and back me up on this so you don't think i'm trying to smokescreen you here...

 

And as for that last quote about me not helping anyone and wasting the OP's time------you obviously didn't read the thread too well, dear

 

Keep trying though, you'll make sense sooner or later--right?

 

I just can't help but sit here though and ask HOW your posts in THIS THREAD have helped anyone in a POSITIVE way--helping them UNDERSTAND better, helping them COPE better, and like I said (the part of what I said that you for some reason decided NOT to quote)--This means offering them some kind of value that you KNOW will actually ELICIT some kind of positive feedback and help faciliate the overall process of them becoming better equipped to handle the situation at hand? Where in this thread have you done that? It's all about Results....

[Jersey Shortie]

Jersey, NOTHING in your last post made ANY logical sense!!

 

Please pin-point a specifc point if you are going to make such statements. Otherwise, if you can't, then your comment is nothing but character defurmation. Just becaue you say "it's not logical", doesn't mean it's true. Please use information to back up yourself up.

 

And as for that last quote about me not helping anyone and wasting the OP's time------you obviously didn't read the thread too well, dear

 

Keep trying though, you'll make sense sooner or later--right?

 

At this point, you're being purposely condsending and purposely demeaning towards me. You rather personally attack me then discuss the real points brought up.

 

I can understand if you disagree with me. But this isn't a matter of you logically disagreeing with my points and saying why you disagree. You've turned it into a character assination and are now personally attacking me.

 

While I disagree with your points, I don't think you deserve to be charater assinated, mocked, or made to look like an idiot. It's unfortunate you can't give the same respect even if you disagree with someone else.

 

 

I just can't help but sit here though and ask HOW your posts in THIS THREAD have helped anyone in a POSITIVE way--helping them UNDERSTAND better, helping them COPE better, and like I said (the part of what I said that you for some reason decided NOT to quote)--This means offering them some kind of value that you KNOW will actually ELICIT some kind of positive feedback and help faciliate the overall process of them becoming better equipped to handle the situation at hand? Where in this thread have you done that? It's all about Results....

 

This is the third or fourth time i've said this already and it's your choice that you want to ignore it. You asked what I thought could be done, I gave you a very clear idea on what could be done. You've purposely ignored it several times. You continue to ask the same questions over and over again even though I have been very articulate in illustrating my points. That's your choice.

 

You think it's helpful to pretend ignorance and go about your business. I think it's helpful to be completely honest about the situation and then make yoru choices based on that. There isn't a woman here that wants to live a lie about what is really happening with her man. There is no woman here that wants to pretend he is something he isn't. I think the best result is to have a clear understanding of the situation and what is going on, not just the happy Candy Land version, and make your choice based on the truth.

 

If your post is going to be yet another derogatory commentary on trying to belittle me, I suggest you rethink even posting it all. You laminate about what is helpful to the OP and results but your pretty stuck in the mud with your own perceptoins and rather sit there behind your computer demeaning another poster then address the topic and other view points. Again, your choice but a waste of time when you could be spending it more wisely. YOu've wasted so much of your own time trying to defame my character then to bring anything truely substanial to the topic. It doesn't matter if you disagree with me. That's fine. But you have yet anything to show on why you disagree with me other then to personally attack me.

[victoriatotoro]

Hi there - I just wanted to say that I don't think it is a question of men vs. women but really about the middle ground on which a man and women in relationship can meet on on this issue.

 

I've had to face this in my current relationship with a wonderful man who is 12 years older than me and who has some internalized responses to women that are definately generational. Knowing he grew up thinking it was normal to look at girls overtly doesn't mean that I am okay with it. I don't do this to men or women because I think it is rude for my partner - especially if he is not comfortable with it.

 

It is challenging to discuss this because there are really a few things at that might affect the view:

 

1. men might be biologically inclined to look at women than vice versa

2. men are definately socialized to think it is normal to ogle/pursue women

3. men have had more power in society than women in the past and have normalized their way of acting on their desires often to the detriment of women

3. an individual's background - male or female - what they bring to the table

 

I am right now trying to work out where I am on this because, in the past, I've been affected by the sexualization/objectification of women by men and so I'm sensitive to it. It is a trigger for feeling powerless for me. This is my issue to deal with personally and in my current relationship. My partner also needs; however, to learn to understand the part that is not a hypersensitive response.

 

The part that is what I view as an important social issue that deserves a little awareness as we celebrate our differences as men and women. For me, objectification has to have some boundaries that are based on respect for your partner and respect for humanity. Where these boundaries are has to be good for both of you and then you can have fun with it.

 

It is clear that objectification does harm lots of women yet many men just dismiss some female responses as jealousy, man-hating or a need to get some self confidence. As I said, my research and background has made me more sensitive to what others can accept as a normal male response to a nice looking gal. I suspect many women might be in my shoes because lots of us have been affected negatively by it.

 

Definately more women in past generations simply learned to accept the "looksee don't touch" approach. Then again, they had less social power and equality and they suffered from it. Men and women aren't biologically the same and there is this difference but I do believe that they need to have similar levels of social power to have their views normalized and accepted. Right now, IMO the male view still predominates and is seen as normal.

 

For me, I think that having someone ogle another woman while they are with you is not okay if you don't feel okay. Maybe you can learn to accept it is natural for men and therefore okay and this is your middle ground. Maybe you can't. If not, you shouldn't have to move to a position you are not comfortable with. He should be prepared to understand some of your feelings - they may not be insecurity based. They may be a legitimate response to a social issue that requires some changes to his behaviour for the relationship to work.

 

I kind of liken it to racism in some respects. If you are black and in relationship with a white fellow who holds some racist views this is really going to affect you. It will affect you even more if you have struggled with the negatives of racism in a powerful way in your life. If your partner loves you and makes efforts to understand your perspective it is likely their perspective will change. If not, it is probably better to move on and find a partner where you can be comfortable with these important issues. Men with different views most certainly exist. Among my male friends (university educated men under 40) there are lots of men are sensitized to the issue. There are lots that aren't too.

 

With the looking at other women there are some modifications that I would expect from my partner like:

 

1. not being totally obvious about it

2. having done enough research about the effects of objectification to have a little awareness and respect

 

I don't expect my partner to be oblivious or not have any response to an attractive woman. I don't expect this because I've got instincts and sexual desires too that I do think are natural and great. I do; however, have lots of control and a deep sense of respect for humanity which is not based on superficial criteria that propels me through life in a direction I'm comfortable with. I'd like my partner to be the same.

 

If your feelings are based on a healthy understanding and not a hyper-reaction find someone else if he is unable to meet you where you have comfort. If you need to do the work to find out why you are not comfortable don't be afraid to do it. Not everyone is the same on this issue and there is no absolute right answer. It is ultimately not whether guys are creepsicles conditioned by a mysoginist society or simply a natural animal - or whether women are negative, paranoid and jealous - but rather whether this will be an issue in your relationship that will prevent happiness and joy.

[Paragon]

Jersey, the following quoted statements are the last relevant things you said to the original topic. I am hoping you reread our previous back-and-forth posts and discover your errors without me having to laborisouly point them out time and time again, and have you miss what I say. I'll leave THAT part to you, so I can better utilize instead of waste my time and lead you back on track here...Ready?

 

Do you think it's best if we all assume that our guy is only platonically thinking about these women while he, in his head, is physically bedding them? I don't see who that is best for.

 

I totally agree that a woman doesn't know what is running through her man's head when he is looking at another woman. And that is what leaves women concerned and feeling vunerable. I do know that men aren't always looking at other women platonically for a few seconds then moving on their day. Sometimes yes, but sometimes no and we have no way to tell those times from when a woman catches his interest.....

 

Given all that, let's address your question of "Do you think it's best if we all assume that our guy is only platonically thinking about these women while he, in his head, is physically bedding them?"

 

No--as a matter of fact I never suggested that, so I wonder why you're even asking that question. Nevertheless, let me make it crystal clear what I did and DO suggest: I think it's best if you think--"Gee, he could be thinking about her or he could just be objectively noticing her beauty. Since I don't KNOW what he's thinking, and it would be asinine of me to ask him what exactly he's thinking EVERY time I catch him looking at another woman, I think i'm going to assume the BEST of my man, since I obviously did my best in choosing someone who i believed to be genuine, upstanding, faithful, and honest. I am going to understand his behavior on a deeper level and realize it's just a natural tendency for this to happen. If it happens too often, perhaps I'll try and do what Paragon suggested Dina do" Did you happen to catch how I advised her to actually handle the situation, Jersey?

 

Notice what kind of trust and faith you have to be able to have in YOURSELF and YOUR PARTNER in order to be able to handle this in the aforementioned manner. That's why it's disconcerting when so many people want to ask the wrong questions and be concerned with the wrong issues, because they are completely oblivious to the REAL issues.

 

Now, YOU Jersey, have stressed the IMPORTANCE of being REALISTIC, which includes thinking things like "Gee, he's COULD be thinking about having sexual relations with that woman he's looking at." Let's say you think that...Then what? What should you do next? You played the "Well he COULD be" game...But it just leaves you there...Feeling what?

 

I am posing the question of how keeping these NEGATIVE thoughts (thinking your man could be thinking about bedding the other women) at the forefront of your mind will POSITIVELY help you deal with the situation.

 

 

I wish men would give women more respect and not lie to them and make it seem like it's only ever "platonic". I wish they would use more self control.

 

You are doing a lot of desperate wishing, Jersey. And what's disheartening is that your head is in the WRONG place. Why would you ever choose to date these men to begin with? Isn't that the meta-issue? I think it would be far wiser for you to select a genuine man instead of selecting an ingenuine man and then wishing he was different--don't you? I know what you're response is going to be, and we'll address that if you decide to go down that path.

 

As for soloving the problem, I have pointed out my solution many times. I think that a little more self control is in order and instead of focusing and wondering about the women you don't have, redirecting your attention and focus to the woman you do have. Sincerely. Not just making her feel like you are but really doing it. Not just making the show good at face value, but really giving your effort value by doing it during the times she can see and when she can't. Those are the times that really matter. Doing the right thing when she can't see your doing it.

 

Soooooo, men should exercise more self control and reduce seeing women ac sexual objects, AND make mer feel special, important, and loved? Agreed--and obvious

 

Now, here's my short and concise assessment of the original topic: 1) understand why this is really happening, understand the behavior on it's deepest levels. 2) If this does not alleviate your feelings of (insert word here: jealousy, insecurity, hurt, etc) then try to positively change the situation by implementing the solution Paragon gave earlier in the thread.

 

See? Simple And what's funny is, that's what my ORIGINAL two posts in this thread WERE!!! But......you missed all that somehow...

 

So I guess, in the end, you actually do agree with me

[Jersey Shortie]

 

Jersey, the following quoted statements are the last relevant things you said to the original topic. I am hoping you reread our previous back-and-forth posts and discover your errors without me having to laborisouly point them out time and time again, and have you miss what I say. I'll leave THAT part to you, so I can better utilize instead of waste my time and lead you back on track here...Ready?

 

LOL. Translation: I can’t back up my claims so I will tell you that I will “leave THAT part to you”. I asked for proof, you clearly are unable to provide any. What is funny is I don’t care if you disagree with me. Please do disagree and logically discuss why you do. But that’s not what you do. You don’t talk about what you disagree with on my points. You childishly personally attack me. It’s hard to take you seriously. You go on and on about wasting your time but you’ve wasted so much of your own time with personal childish attacks when you could have been logically discussing the topic at hand, even the points you say you disagree with. You’re a funny thing.

 

 

“Gee, he could be thinking about her or he could just be objectively noticing her beauty. Since I don't KNOW what he's thinking, and it would be asinine of me to ask him what exactly he's thinking EVERY time I catch him looking at another woman, I think i'm going to assume the BEST of my man, since I obviously did my best in choosing someone who i believed to be genuine, upstanding, faithful, and honest. I am going to understand his behavior on a deeper level and realize it's just a natural tendency for this to happen. If it happens too often, perhaps I'll try and do what Paragon suggested Dina do" Did you happen to catch how I advised her to actually handle the situation, Jersey?

I see your advice for clearly what it is. You’re advice is geared to having women live in ignorance and be happy little cookie cutters blindly following their man when he could very realistically be disrespecting his relationship with her. We don’t live in the 1920s anymore Paragon. Women aren’t satisfied with blindly following their man wherever him and his wallet go. It’s easy to do the right thing when everyone is looking. Much harder when no one is looking and you don’t get the credit. It’s better for a woman to be honest with herself about what the possible scenario is, address it with her partner, and hopefully have them both behave better. Your advice is rather one sided about asking women to pretend something that might not be true while you advocate that men behave on their “biological” wave and fancy at the moment.

 

 

 

Now, YOU Jersey, have stressed the IMPORTANCE of being REALISTIC, which includes thinking things like "Gee, he's COULD be thinking about having sexual relations with that woman he's looking at." Let's say you think that...Then what? What should you do next? You played the "Well he COULD be" game...But it just leaves you there...Feeling what?

It leaves you being realistic and honest about what is going on. It doesn’t leave you open to being blindsided or being the joke when he could very well be thinking of the other women in more intimate terms.

 

I am posing the question of how keeping these NEGATIVE thoughts (thinking your man could be thinking about bedding the other women) at the forefront of your mind will POSITIVELY help you deal with the situation.

You ask for mental self control from women that you do not ask of men. If you ask for women to keep a “positive” look on the situation, then you equally should be asking men to control their own thoughts as well and keep their focus and attention where it belongs, with the women with him, not the women that aren’t with him. That’s the problem here with your “solution”. You not only ask women to live in ignorance and see her man as something he might not be, you ask women to do all the heavy lifting and defend a man’s actions based on “biology”. Why even be with one woman if this is how you feel?

 

 

You are doing a lot of desperate wishing, Jersey. And what's disheartening is that your head is in the WRONG place

To that I will say that I think a man’s head is in the wrong place by entertaining thoughts and ideas of other women or seeking them out, even if it’s just visual.

 

Why would you ever choose to date these men to begin with? Isn't that the meta-issue? I think it would be far wiser for you to select a genuine man instead of selecting an ingenuine man and then wishing he was different--don't you? I know what you're response is going to be, and we'll address that if you decide to go down that path.

Lol. I didn’t realize you had a spreadsheet of my dating history. You're trying to comment and hypothesis on things you have no clue about.

 

So I guess, in the end, you actually do agree with me

 

You’re being rather ignorant and attempting to come off condesending. If you want to tell yourself that I agree with you because that helps you sleep at night, go ahead. everyone here can see through yoru big talk.

[Paragon]

You want me to point it all out for you? Here ya go.......

 

I see your advice for clearly what it is. You’re advice is geared to having women live in ignorance and be happy little cookie cutters blindly following their man when he could very realistically be disrespecting his relationship with her.

 

Really? Please QUOTE where I said. Oh wait for it--YOU CAN'T!! Please, I can't wait until you respond to this one...I NEVER said women should be ignorant--as a matter of fact i've been saying how women need to understand things on a deeper level as a first step. I never said women should blindly follow their men--I said they should communicate with them and tell their partnet how it makes them feel and seek out a way for them to work through it via--see my advice to DINA earlier in the thread!!!!

 

Your advice is rather one sided about asking women to pretend something that might not be true while you advocate that men behave on their “biological” wave and fancy at the moment.

 

Oh and again, you didn't READ MY ADVICE TO DINA!!! What is wrong with you? Go back and reread what I told her to do--hint hint, it involves communication! First address the mindset, then if that doesn't work, try step 2. What's step two? Go find it! I can't believe how ignorant you are making yourself look here by saying i'm saying the OPPOSITE of what was originally written.

 

It leaves you being realistic and honest about what is going on. It doesn’t leave you open to being blindsided or being the joke when he could very well be thinking of the other women in more intimate terms.

 

:laugh: Jersey, this is great!! I asked you what should you do after you get done being realistic--and you say--it leaves you being realistic. Syllogistic logik anyone? Oh and here's the dialogue so you and everyone can read it see how ILLOGICAL your response really was. Here's what I said

 

Now, YOU Jersey, have stressed the IMPORTANCE of being REALISTIC, which includes thinking things like "Gee, he's COULD be thinking about having sexual relations with that woman he's looking at." Let's say you think that...Then what? What should you do next? You played the "Well he COULD be" game...But it just leaves you there...Feeling what?

Aaaaaaaaand you said:

 

It leaves you being realistic and honest about what is going on.

 

Ummm--WOW...........This is just ONE example of the bull**** you've been trying to pull, but please, keep projecting how I'M not backing my stuff when really you're the one who has logik issues. Again, here's the issue: I asked you what should you do after you get done being realistic--and you say--it leaves you being realistic.

 

You not only ask women to live in ignorance and see her man as something he might not be, you ask women to do all the heavy lifting and defend a man’s actions based on “biology”. Why even be with one woman if this is how you feel?

 

WRONG!!! That's not what I said. But keep trying, maybe next time you'll read what I said for Dina to do, instead of making it up in your own head.

 

And here's YET ANOTHER brilliant example about how you just throw out USELESS red-herring responses not addressing anything I say. Here's what I said:

 

"You are doing a lot of desperate wishing, Jersey. And what's disheartening is that your head is in the WRONG place. Why would you ever choose to date these men to begin with? Isn't that the meta-issue? I think it would be far wiser for you to select a genuine man instead of selecting an ingenuine man and then wishing he was different--don't you?"

 

Here's what you said back:

To that I will say that I think a man’s head is in the wrong place by entertaining thoughts and ideas of other women or seeking them out, even if it’s just visual.

 

Okay--what does that have to do with me saying your head is in the wrong place. All you did was say--well men's heads are in the wrong places. Ummmmmm...Logik check on Jersey's post please! Logik check!

 

You see, those two examples above depict how your responses have nothing to do with what I actually say and bring up and that's why I keep saying the things that I do! Come on now....

[harmfulsweetz]

LOL. Translation: I can’t back up my claims so I will tell you that I will “leave THAT part to you”. I asked for proof, you clearly are unable to provide any. What is funny is I don’t care if you disagree with me. Please do disagree and logically discuss why you do. But that’s not what you do. You don’t talk about what you disagree with on my points. You childishly personally attack me. It’s hard to take you seriously. You go on and on about wasting your time but you’ve wasted so much of your own time with personal childish attacks when you could have been logically discussing the topic at hand, even the points you say you disagree with. You’re a funny thing.

 

 

I see your advice for clearly what it is. You’re advice is geared to having women live in ignorance and be happy little cookie cutters blindly following their man when he could very realistically be disrespecting his relationship with her. We don’t live in the 1920s anymore Paragon. Women aren’t satisfied with blindly following their man wherever him and his wallet go. It’s easy to do the right thing when everyone is looking. Much harder when no one is looking and you don’t get the credit. It’s better for a woman to be honest with herself about what the possible scenario is, address it with her partner, and hopefully have them both behave better. Your advice is rather one sided about asking women to pretend something that might not be true while you advocate that men behave on their “biological” wave and fancy at the moment.

 

 

 

It leaves you being realistic and honest about what is going on. It doesn’t leave you open to being blindsided or being the joke when he could very well be thinking of the other women in more intimate terms.

 

You ask for mental self control from women that you do not ask of men. If you ask for women to keep a “positive” look on the situation, then you equally should be asking men to control their own thoughts as well and keep their focus and attention where it belongs, with the women with him, not the women that aren’t with him. That’s the problem here with your “solution”. You not only ask women to live in ignorance and see her man as something he might not be, you ask women to do all the heavy lifting and defend a man’s actions based on “biology”. Why even be with one woman if this is how you feel?

 

 

To that I will say that I think a man’s head is in the wrong place by entertaining thoughts and ideas of other women or seeking them out, even if it’s just visual.

 

Lol. I didn’t realize you had a spreadsheet of my dating history. You're trying to comment and hypothesis on things you have no clue about.

 

You’re being rather ignorant and attempting to come off condesending. If you want to tell yourself that I agree with you because that helps you sleep at night, go ahead. everyone here can see through yoru big talk.

I think, Jersey, in all fairness, no one here has personally attacked you, only your ideas. This thread isn't about what men do and don't think, and how women must suffer it, it's about the OP and her personal issue with it. I don't doubt that there are those that overtly look, drool and think sexual thoughts about another, in the same sentence I don't doubt there are more people who do not do those things. Answering the OP's question generically, is like a doctor going into a surgery with 12 cancer patients and giving them all the same prognosis, because they all suffer essentially the same thing. Misleading, and inaccurrate. I haven't read a post from you which actually addresses the OP's own problems.

[Jersey Shortie]

I think, Jersey, in all fairness, no one here has personally attacked you, only your ideas.

 

I never claimed that everyone here personally attacked me.

 

This discussion was in reference to Paragon, he has made many personal attacks. It's clear as Rudolph's nose.

 

 

Answering the OP's question generically, is like a doctor going into a surgery with 12 cancer patients and giving them all the same prognosis, because they all suffer essentially the same thing. Misleading, and inaccurrate.

 

However, how he diagnosed those patients was through similiar tests, readings in blood samples and other common factors that lead to the end result that someone has cancer. Cancer

 

I haven't read a post from you which actually addresses the OP's own problems.

 

I haven't read a post from you that has an original thought. You read what other posters write and quite often parrot their exact words.

[Paragon]

Harmfulsweetz said:Answering the OP's question generically, is like a doctor going into a surgery with 12 cancer patients and giving them all the same prognosis, because they all suffer essentially the same thing. Misleading, and inaccurrate.

 

To which you replied:

 

However, how he diagnosed those patients was through similiar tests, readings in blood samples and other common factors that lead to the end result that someone has cancer. Cancer

 

You don't read, Jersey. She didn't say he ran tests, took samples, etc. ALL she said was that they were suffering particular symptoms, and he diagnosed all them with cancer because they all shared the same symptoms. Your reply, again, is NONsensical and doesn't follow a logical progression.

 

And i'll be waiting to see what you have to say to my previous post, which you ignored--or missed?

 

Buehler? Buehler?

[harmfulsweetz]

Thanks Paragon, think she needed it cleared up.

 

My point, Jersey, is actually a simple one. You get 12 people who all have cancer, in varying stages and also say in varying locations of the body, no two people's prognosis's are alike. But the doctor walks in, and treats all 12 as like for like cases,when clearly they aren't. They can never be. Treating this OP's situation the same as everyone else's is incredibly useless. Her partner may do none of the things you assume he does, but by your reckoning, what you say, is what men do.

 

I haven't read a post in which Paragon has personally attacked you, he has in fact only challenged you on points you make which many disagree with. I'm actually not parroting anyone's words-find me a post of mine and theirs (if you can) and prove that. I would actually appreciate it if you reread some of the thread, and try and see commonground because there is.

[Jersey Shortie]

First Dexter said in Post #96:

Look, but don't break your neck in front of your significant other.

 

Then you said HarmfulSweetz in Post #110

(course breaking your neck to look.....

 

 

 

First Paragon said in Post #79

Your gut reaction of getting a bit jealous? That’s a good thing and you should appreciate that you feel that, because it’s part of caring about someone deeply.

 

Then you said:

HarmfulSweetz - Post #120

Jealousy is a good thing (in small doses) in an R, course, if we didn't care who our partners are with, etc, we shouldn't be together.

 

First Paragon said in Post #79:

Looks and attractiveness fall on the high end of the value spectrum for men.

 

Then you said:

HarmfulSweetz - Post #120

Looks are a high value for men.

 

First Paragon Said in Post #79

It's simply a description of the internal PRIMORDIAL processes going on in his brain.

 

Then you said:

HarmfulSweetz - #126

It's primordial, so what?

 

First Paragon Said in Post #125

Jersey, that's exactly what your FOCUSING on here--the negative...

 

Then you said

HarmfulSweetz - Post # 130:

You don't listen to reason, only the negative....

 

You've parroted quite a lot.

 

And yeah, your point is simple. As was mine. I am sorry you didn't understand it. The thing about your example is that you think your point should only apply to certain posters while you praise others for their generalities.

[harmfulsweetz]

First Dexter said in Post #96:

 

 

Then you said HarmfulSweetz in Post #110

 

 

 

 

First Paragon said in Post #79

 

 

Then you said:

HarmfulSweetz - Post #120

 

 

First Paragon said in Post #79:

 

 

Then you said:

HarmfulSweetz - Post #120

 

 

First Paragon Said in Post #79

 

 

Then you said:

HarmfulSweetz - #126

 

 

First Paragon Said in Post #125

 

 

Then you said

HarmfulSweetz - Post # 130:

 

 

You've parroted quite a lot.

 

And yeah, your point is simple. As was mine. I am sorry you didn't understand it. The thing about your example is that you think your point should only apply to certain posters while you praise others for their generalities.

No, not really. What you have shown is that several people on this thread agree with me, and hold the same view. People are allowed that, and doesn't that mean that you have very few people agreeing with you on this, and so maybe something is a tad strange about your thoughts?

I got it, I disagree. In the end of the day, you can't hold a healthy relationship with all those messed up thoughts in your head-which one day, you will see are mostly just in your head. Have fun with that though. I don't think I have focused on generalities, not at all. I have distinctly said that there are men who do go OTT, and disrespect their partners, however, there all also men who don't do this, and they are in the majority. I'm friends with many men, I don't know any of them being as you say. If you live in a world where you always think bad, and you always think they are up to no good, then why not hermit yourself? Or better yet, blind them, and take away all free thought?

[c-riouz]

Haven't you two already argued on ivillage? I remember both of you from there. Give it a rest. As for not many people agreeing with Jersey, well, I agree in a lot of things with her and she always makes valid points which people tend to ignore because they are the truth.

[Paragon]

Haven't you two already argued on ivillage? I remember both of you from there. Give it a rest. As for not many people agreeing with Jersey, well, I agree in a lot of things with her and she always makes valid points which people tend to ignore because they are the truth.

 

I challenge you to find them in this thread.

 

And Jersey STILL hasn't responded to my post--maybe because she finally realized she's wrong here. I haven't been on this forum very long, but from what I know I'd have to say that has to be some kind of historic moment.

[Jersey Shortie]

No, not really. What you have shown is that several people on this thread agree with me, and hold the same view. People are allowed that, and doesn't that mean that you have very few people agreeing with you on this, and so maybe something is a tad strange about your thoughts?

 

I know alot of people that agree with my thoughts. I know people that might not completely agree with me but think I make valid points. I digress, you talking about the amount of people that do or don't agree with me has nothing to do with the thread and nothing to do with your previous request to show you just one time were you copied other's words.

 

I have no doubt that people agree on things and that you agree with what people said. But anytime someone said something, you can see in the many examples I gave, that you parroted their words AFTER they said them. If anything, it's YOU that agree with them. And you couldn't even use your own vocab to express it. I think I proved my point, several times. You asked for examples , you got them. If you notice the post numbers, your comments were always after the intial comment was made and you used the same exact wording as the first poster. So yes, you really do copy other's thoughts. And the reason I noticed it wasn't because you did it once or twice but you did it consistantly. That was why it was so easy for me to pull so many qoutes.

 

I got it, I disagree..

 

Yeah, I undestand that you do and that's fine with me. I will live my life as I see fit as you should live yours as you see fit. Telling me I should be a hermit or "blind" someone is trite and purposely meant to be obnixous.

 

 

And Jersey STILL hasn't responded to my post--maybe because she finally realized she's wrong here. I haven't been on this forum very long, but from what I know I'd have to say that has to be some kind of historic moment.

 

Paragon, I stopped responding to you because I don't see it going anywhere. We both have our strong beliefs and they are completely different. I'm not going to agree with you and think you're right and you aren't going to do the same. It's however ignorant to say that my lack of response was because of course I must agree with you. This is the kind of thing exactly that reminds me why it's best not to respond to you. You want to dictate what everyone else should think. And you want to self compliment yourself in the process. You've attempted to pat yourself on the back several times...for what I am not sure. But you do attempt it.

[Paragon]

Paragon, I stopped responding to you because I don't see it going anywhere.

 

Last time I did that, here's what you responded with: "LOL. Translation: I can’t back up my claims"

 

Your words, not mine. Are you going to hold a double standard to yourself now, saying it's DIFFERENT if you don't want to respond to me it's not because you can't back your views up?

 

I'm just sayin.........