State of the Modern Marriage

[amerikajin]

Thought I'd stop preaching and throw around something to think about. Figured I'd comment and throw out some questions

 

Obviously, married people cheat now as they have since the beginning of time. We all know that it's best if two people don't cheat on each other, though there are a number of factors which make taking a step outside of marriage more appealing as time passes.

 

1. Is cheating ever healthy?

 

In my opinion, not really, though I'd be interested in someone else's opinion.

 

 

2. Does cheating automatically mean the end of the marriage?

 

Absolutely not. Certainly, there will be damaged trust to repair, and it may never quite be the same again, but I don't necessarily think that cheating by itself means that a relationship has to end. It depends on the circumstances. I've always thought to myself about how I would handle cheating. I've thought that if I were in that situation, I'd probably first sit down and have a long talk about "Why" it happened. I'd then probably move out for a short period of time, maybe just a weekend or two to myself. Maybe I'd give each other some time and space. Then I'd use that time to allow both of us to decide whether it's a good idea to continue or to head on to divorce court. Just me, though. Your thoughts???

 

 

3. Are we really meant to be monogamous our entire adult lives? Are we meant to live our lives with only one partner? Is it natural to drift onto another partner?

 

This is the one I don't know if I can answer. Maybe for some yes, but for others "no". Maybe we have to be careful not to condemn others for drifting, though I do believe that there is a right way and a wrong way to drift.

 

Whaddyou think???

[Faerie Princess]

Is cheating ever healthy?

 

Healthy is a tough word to get around. I'd say it's not a good thing, because cheating involves lying. Lying says, "I don't value you enough to tell you how I really feel. I don't trust you to be able to understand or try to understand me and my desires (not needs).

 

Does cheating have to end a marriage?

 

No. That's a choice that the people involved can make, but don't have to. They can work past the situation, rebuild trust and not lie anymore. But if they don't let go of the bad feelings and behaviors that the cheating comes from, they'll have a cancer in their marriage.

 

Are we meant to be monogamous?

 

I don't know if we're meant to be. More and more people are finding themselves in happy marriages and NOT being monogamous. It's not just about sex, though I know a number of very happy marriages where the couples "swing." Some marriages expand and have other people join it as they find folks they can share their lives with. Some people have "friends with benefits" on the side that also bring enrichment to the marriage.

 

Right now there are folks that are trying to legislate what marriage is. Meanwhile there are a lot of folks that are finding that marriage can be what works for them. That's fine.

 

Monogamy isn't bad, it's a choice. But like any other choice, if you willingly chose it, you should accept and embrace it. If you are open and honest with yourself, and really know yourself and why you do what you do, then you can be the same with your partner.

[ziggue]

1. Is cheating ever healthy?

I think no. What if the person falls in love with the girl/guy. What if the girl gets pregnant because of what happened?

 

2. Does cheating have to end a marraige?

Once they cheat and get away with it who's to say that they won't do it again? I believe in giving people a second chance and if it happens again. I would kick them out the door.

 

3. Are We Meant To Be Monogamous?

I think it is alright if you are single and both people in the relationship are alright with the situation. Same with an open marriage. If you get yourself into that situation.

 

An open relationship is okay if you don't want to get to serious with someone but I wouldn't want an open marriage.

[bark]

1. Is cheating ever healthy?

 

Healthy for whom-- the cheater, his/her spouse, the marriage? As for cheating, not all betrayals are created equal. Some cheaters have one nighters, short flings. Others become involved in full blown love affairs that last years. These intense, passionate love affairs are frequently "healthy" for the participants. And in an unintended way, these safety valve affairs may be healthy for the marriage which would otherwise end in divorce. As for the innocent spouse, that depends on a host of factors--knowledge, disclosure, emotional temperament, the general stae of the marriage etc. I suspect affairs are almost never healthy for those betrayed.

 

 

2. Does cheating have to end a marriage?

 

No, it does not. Again, this depends on the state of the marriage, personalities, children, etc. I suspect wives would be more tolerant of an affair than husbands. This is just a hunch, I have no proof.

 

3.Are We Meant To Be Monogamous?

 

Some are, many are not. I think when life expectancy was around 40, monogamy was easier to attain. We're all living longer now and some of us outlive our marital relationship. Monogamy, like marriage, is more honored by the word than by deed in our overstimulated eroticized culture. Without adultery, LoveShack wouldn't exist. Check out Laura Kipnis's book, "Against Love," which is a very interesting polemic against marriage and monogamy.

[amerikajin]

Good, thoughtful replies so far. Keep em comin.

 

Kinda got me to thinkin, though....

 

More and more, we have states trying to make divorce more difficult with these so-called covenant marriages. I've forgotten exactly what it entails, but it seems as though I recall that under a covenant marriage it could take up to five years to complete a divorce. So on the one hand there's the school of thought that we should embrace the one partner for life paradigm and make divorce doubly damn difficult.

 

On the other hand, though, I thought that maybe we should do the opposite. Maybe we should make it relatively easy to divorce by settling it through some private arbiter or better yet, make each couple sign prenuptial details - right down to the custody of the kids, if they ever have them - before marriage. No lawsuits for pain and suffering, just a 50/50 split of all assets acquired during the marriage, primary custody in favor of the mother with weekend visitation for the father, and get the process done in, say, a month by going through an arbiter. Or something along those lines. I mean, you can't force what's not there, and besides, I think the most destructive aspects of divorce is going through all of the legal red tape. Serves nobody's interests to keep these wounds open, and it takes up too much courtroom time and expense.

[moimeme]

Is cheating ever healthy?

 

No. It adds deceit and betrayal to a relationship. There isn't any way that these two factors can be 'healthy'.

 

2. Does cheating automatically mean the end of the marriage?

 

It depends. If it is a one-night stand, possibly. I can see very few 'good' reasons someone would have one. If it was a long-term, deeply romantic relationship, no. Too much of what belongs in the marriage has been given away to someone else to be retrieved. That leaves a short-term involvement. Maybe that can be recovered, particularly if it is the cheater who realizes that the relationship was a huge mistake and it caused the cheater to realize that what s/he really wants is the marriage.

 

Sometimes having an affair helps to point out to someone what his or her problem is with the relationship (usually unmet needs) so that s/he can then deal with that problem. However, the better way to identify problems and deal with them is to put some thought and work into the relationship.

 

3. Are we really meant to be monogamous our entire adult lives? Are we meant to live our lives with only one partner? Is it natural to drift onto another partner?

 

I don't think there is a general answer for this. I think people are constituted differently, and perhaps some are not able to sustain long-term relationships. Maybe the best thing to do is see if your intended has had long-term relationships with friends. Perhaps the same qualities that enable to have long friendships enable them to have long marriages, and vice-versa!

 

I definitely think it is a mistake to try to figure out a 'one-rule-fits-all' scenario for this. Humans vary infinitely; to try to fit everyone into one template is just not possible.

[Arabess]

Is cheating ever healthy?

 

In some circumstances I've known people who cheat in marriages and it doesn't seem to have very much of an emotional impact. They don't feel guilty or feel like they need to "confess" at a later date. The do it for sex and attention. I personally don't think it's a great moral call....but it seems to be done frequently.

 

Does cheating automatically mean the end of the marriage?

 

It depends on the dynamics of the marriage. Some marriages get past it....other's don't. I'm with Moimeme on this one....the factor probably lies in what TYPE of cheating was done. One night stand -vs- Long Term Relationship. I could easily overlook a one night stand....I would have real problems with a long term relationship though

 

Are we really meant to be monogamous our entire adult lives? Are we meant to live our lives with only one partner? Is it natural to drift onto another partner?

 

Biblically speaking - YES! However, old Aunt Martha's (and apparently God's) rules may not be a factor we consider in our new "liberal" world. Each person has to live within their own comfort zone regarding this matter. To me, staying in a bad marriage just for the sake of keeping the marriage together....wouldn't be acceptable for me. To other people, the committment of marriage over looks all flaws. It depends on the person.

[amerikajin]

So you say that it's the one-nighter that's worse than the hot, steamy love affair with the office secretary?

 

I would've thought the reverse, but I suppose I can at least see your rationale. I don't necessarily feel that way myself. My thought is that if it's a situation where maybe my mate was drunk at a party or on a business trip and hooked up with some guy she knew previously and did the deed, that might be something we can work out, though by no means would she get off easily. It gets complicated here, I think.

 

Scenario A: My lover falls in love with someone at work and they start having a long relationship.

 

I think that's by far the most destructive to a marriage. Any connection she's had with me has surely been destroyed, and probably long ago. I'd probably tell her to pack up right away, point to the road, and say "Truck on, babe."

 

Scenario B: I find out my wife's a real road slut. Again, I'd say "truck on, babe"

 

Scenario C: My lover goes on a business trip. She runs into some guy who's a real stud or maybe she's met him before and they get sloppy drunk, go to a hotel room and get goin.

 

Maybe I never find out about.

 

Then again, maybe I open up our e-mail account or get some independent account of it somehow and do find out. I'd be pissed, and the trust would be injured seriously, but it wouldn't automatically be over. That's where I say, okay, time out here. I try to find out how long she's been playing this game (and trust me, I'd be like a NYPD detective and interrogate her until she couldn't take it anymore). It's at that point I'd have to make a determination as to whether or not she stays or goes. I'd probably move out for a few days - get a hotel room or something and think it all over. Make her think, too. I would certainly be willing to listen to whatever issues she wants to raise, but I'd still make it clear that her behavior was wrong and I'd expect some kind of resolution on that. If she somehow continued to defend her indefensible behavior or kept trying to shift blame on me or kept lying, I'd point to the road and say "truck on, babe".

[quankanne]

Is cheating ever healthy?

 

I don't believe so. I think it's selfish and it shows a lack of respect for both your relationship and the other person in it with you.

 

Does cheating automatically mean the end of the marriage?

 

No. It might be that a cheater is straying because he/she wants his/her partner's attention, and this is the only way he/she feels he can get that attention.

 

Knowing how I feel about these things, I would find cheating to be a death knell to my relationship with my husband/SO. I probably would immediately call that relationship quits because why try to be a part of something you aren't committed to?

 

Are we really meant to be monogamous our entire adult lives? Are we meant to live our lives with only one partner? Is it natural to drift onto another partner?

 

good question -- I suspect that we are not "wired" to be fully monogamous, but because we possess free will, monogamy is a lifestyle choice. If our goal is to be in a committed, monagamous relationship with Ideal Partner, and we work our butt off in order to achieve that, we get it.

 

Drifting, or cheating, comes into play when something about this "ideal" relationship changes and we don't change with it. How many times have we heard about someone "finding my soul mate" or meeting someone new "who understands me better than my life partner does," and chooses to explore that rather than figure out why they feel that way and what they can do to strengthen the relationship they're already in.

 

Cheating is just an excuse for justifying selfish behavior.

[moimeme]

I think it's about how and why the relationship is discovered. It's one thing if it is found out while in progress - that would be trouble. However, if the cheating spouse ends the relationship and confesses, different story. The problem, I think, with the 'discovered' ones is that I'd have trouble believing that the relationship has ended. If my partner ended an affair and told me about it, it would be easier to forgive - ONCE.

 

My problem with the 'getting drunk and falling into bed' scenario is that I'd have some trouble believing that that lack of judgement would not reoccur if partner got drunk at another conference. Then again, I prefer men who don't think 'getting drunk' = 'fun'.

[Arabess]

No Amer.....I meant it the other way around. A one night stand is just a one night stand for any number of reasons. It would hurt me more for someone to have a "relationship" with someone though.....because they would share secrets and feelings. I wouldn't want to share that part of the man I love.

 

However, if he was deployed in the military or off on some business trip and ended up boinking some broad fromt he bar....I really don't want to know about it....and really wouldn't care.

[bark]

I'm intrigued by amerikajin's comment that there is a

 

"a right way and a wrong way to drift".

 

Are there "good" affairs, "neutral" affairs and "bad" affairs? If so, how is this valuation done and from whose perspective-- the cheater's, the injured spouse's, society's, god's?

 

Is an affair "good" when it is a cheap one-nighter , disclosed at the end and alerts a couple to problems in their marriage (about which they do something)?

 

Is an affair "bad" when it involves a serious loving relationship that lasts for years ,is discovered mid-stream by the innocent spouse, which results in the marriage's implosion?

 

Can an affair be simultaneously experienced as "wonderful" by the participants, "harmful" by the betrayed spouse, "wrongful" by society and "sinful" in god's eyes? I assume an affair can be all of the above.

 

What is the "right way" to conduct an affair, assuming that "way" exists? (I think it does.) The wrong way?

[lostforwords]

1: is cheating ever healthy?

 

I believe its never healthy, however one doesnt think of that when they do the deed. yes perhaps they try to think things thru.... but i dont think healthy is one of them.....

 

2: Does cheating automatically mean the end of the marriage?

 

In some cases no it doesnt, my hub cheated on me, however i did not end my marriage right away, perhaps maybe i should have.... but i didnt because i felt we both could get through it....we at least owed it to ourselves our marriage our family and our children.... i just basicly prolonged it is all i did.... a few years went by when i finally made my decision..... when i seen after 3 years it was still having reprecussions.....

 

3: Are we really meant to be monogamous our entire adult lives? Are we meant to live our lives with only one partner? Is it natural to drift onto another partner?

 

I believe we have it in ourselves to be monogamous.... however we just dont try..... we give into temptations far too easy..... as well as we lack the understanding when we are doing it just how much we will be hurting the other spouse... however some of us chose to ignore everything...... turn a blind eye towards it all.... after all if we did we would be admitting to problems in the relationship.... maybe something that we just dont want to deal with yet until we are strong enough to approach it head on. i also believe that we meet people in our lives for "specific" reasons.... they may not be "structured" reasons like a to do list however we just dont go through life with the thinking that its just standard, there is always a reason for it..... we have a distinct purpose one we do not know until we have lived our life and who you meet is one of them..... i also think its very natural to drift through life.

 

these are just my thoughts, perhaps not good ones but indeed my ideas.

[EnigmaXOXO]

1. Is cheating ever healthy?

 

I can not think of anything positive to be gained from infidelity. When one turns away from their immediate partner and looks elsewhere for their spiritual, emotional and/or sexual needs, they have already vacated that relationship even if not physically. Infidelity depletes the primary relationship of the honesty, trust, emotional intimacy and mutual respect that is essential for building and maintaining a solid foundation.

 

For the cheater, infidelity requires that one must first dehumanize their primary partner (whether consciously or subconsciously) in order to justify their behavior and delegate blame. They would not be able to work around their guilt otherwise. They must also convince themselves that are simply a ‘victim of circumstance’ (or fate) and therefore not in control of their emotions and actions. This requires an unhealthy amount of mental denial. Subsequently, they become fixated on only the negative aspects of their primary relationship while focusing solely on the unrealistic positive qualities of their secondary one. In short, they must detach themselves from reality in order to perpetuate the fantasy. The primary relationship/spouse now becomes a troublesome obstacle to be avoided, while the new love interest is deified as one’s “soul mate” absent of any blame or character flaw.

 

More so, the adulterer further jeopardized the integrity of the primary relationship by becoming adept at lying and manipulation. The fear of “getting caught” only adds to the stress and emotional burden of the primary relationship. The cheater must work hard to fabricate alibis in order to keep his/her secret life from being discovered. After all, ‘discovery’ means the abrupt end of one’s fantasy and self imposed denial. It means suddenly having to deal with ‘reality,’ and thereby being forced to confront the very relationship issues he/she has been working so hard to avoid.

 

Undeniably, the pain created by infidelity is inevitable and unavoidable – as is the damage to the primary relationship which is often irreversible.

 

2. Does cheating automatically mean the end of the marriage?

 

Not necessarily.

 

I know of only one acquaintance in particular who has forgiven her husband for a 25-year affair. Although their family has relocated to put distance between their selves and his mistress, Mary is no longer the happy, vibrant person she use to be. Even though they have gone through years of counciling, she still is not at peace with the situation or her marriage. Where once she was the life of the party, she now sits quietly by herself, hesitant to speak to anyone. She looks sad all the time. It’s as if the person she was inside has already died.

 

For me, I could not see myself living this way. I could not cling to the shattered ruins of what ‘use’ to be a relationship. Once the foundation has been damaged (trust, honesty and mutual respect) there is little hope of rebuilding what you once had together. At best, it would be nothing more than a farce. I could not remain in a relationship dwelling on the probability that in a weak moment it might happen again…struggling to emulate my partner’s expectations of ‘perfection’ as to not give him/her reason to cheat again. Nor would I ever become the kind of cruel, calculating, and dishonest individual that I have gone to great lengths to avoid in my own personal life. I just couldn’t even imagine finding my ‘soul mate’ and not being able to proclaim my happiness out loud to the world…to have to ‘fear’ it, hide it, deny it, would be a torture worse for me than never having found love at all.

 

In the past, when I have found myself unhappy in a relationship, I have worked hard to resolve the problems ‘within.’ Even when there were no solutions, I at least respected that person enough to give them absolute closure before pursuing any outside interests. Although pain of breaking up can not be avoided, the sting of ‘truth’ hurts far less than the emotional agony of discovering you’ve been betrayed by someone you trusted. And at least those wounds can heal once you’ve given that individual the personal freedom to move on and find love again. It is an act of selfish conceit to do otherwise.

 

Perhaps I’m just overly secure and a bit too independent (to a fault), but I would never use someone as a relationship ‘safety net.’ Nor would I want some emotional ‘whimp’ in my life who was so insecure and dependant upon me that they couldn’t find the courage to let go and walk away if they were truly unhappy. I would resent that person for an eternity if they regarded me as nothing more than ‘the old comfortable shoe.’

 

3. Are we really meant to be monogamous our entire adult lives? Are we meant to live our lives with only one partner? Is it natural to drift onto another partner?

 

I think it’s absolutely possible to remain monogamous, but it requires more effort, self-sacrifice, emotional maturity and self-determination than most people are willing to give. It also requires teamwork and a ‘mutual’ effort on both parts.

 

Avoiding distractions and temptations are difficult in a society where we are routinely conditioned to take advantage of opportunity and anything which might feed our selfish desires for immediate gratification. We are a generation of spoiled opportunists, and no one wants to work hard at anything anymore -- Not at their jobs, their family responsibilities; and most certainly not at their personal relationships. It seems we place more value on what we can “get” from life rather than what we have to “give” or offer. The downside to all of this is the continual loss of individual self-worth. If we require nothing of ourselves, then how can we honesty justify our expectations of others? And when one no longer values or respects themselves, they are no longer able to recognize the value in another human being. They then become completely oblivious to how their actions and behavior directly affects the quality of life for those in their emotional orbit. They then become liabilities, not only to themselves, but to the people who once loved, trusted and respected them.

 

So tell us, Christine, how you REALLY feel!

 

Hope you’re not sorry you asked!!

[Arabess]

I think the wrong way is when a man speaks words of love, makes promises he has no intention of keeping and continues this charade for YEARS between the same two women.

 

I think the right way is when a man tells the a woman....this is just about sex. No promises....no committments....nothing. She is at liberty to accept his proposal or move on.

 

I've had both happen. One broke my heart and I hate him to this day. The other one has a great date with me tonight.

[brashgal]

That was very eloquent, Enigma. Although I have read a lot on the subject, your description of what goes through the cheater's mind is about the best I've read.

 

Sounds like your friend Mary had the life sucked right out of her and I think that was what was happening to me the last three years of my marriage. If it hadn't been for my work life I would have completely disappeared. I am told I look and act younger and happier lately - trying to be perfect all the time leads to imperfection I think. Pretty ironic.

 

Cheating healthy? No - can it be constructive? Yes, if it short-lived, the cheater realizes what an incredible mistake they made and what a prize their spouse really is and everyone can move forward with a renewed sense of committment. I certainly wouldn't recommend it as a 'fix' to relationship problems though.

 

End of the marriage? except in the instances above, usually yes, unless the betrayed hangs on and lives in constant fear, distrust, and ultimate misery.

 

Monogamy for life? Biologically they say no - to propagate the species the male wants to mate with as many as possible. But we are more than our biological selves. It's a choice everyone has to make for themselves and hopefully they hurt as few people as possible in the process.

[bark]

OK, enigma, I'm an adulterer (the sexual affair ended about 8 months ago). Let's see how your quite gripping description of an adulterer's mental geography correspond's to my experience. In other words, let's see how well you mapped me.

 

 

 

When one turns away from their immediate partner and looks elsewhere for their spiritual, emotional and/or sexual needs, they have already vacated that relationship even if not physically. Infidelity depletes the primary relationship of the honesty, trust, emotional intimacy and mutual respect that is essential for building and maintaining a solid foundation.

 

 

I agree. Emotional affairs are as deadly as sexual ones. Emotional affairs frequently auger sexual ones.

 

 

 

For the cheater, infidelity requires that one must first dehumanize their primary partner (whether consciously or subconsciously) in order to justify their behavior and delegate blame. They would not be able to work around their guilt otherwise. They must also convince themselves that are simply a ‘victim of circumstance’ (or fate) and therefore not in control of their emotions and actions. This requires an unhealthy amount of mental denial. Subsequently, they become fixated on only the negative aspects of their primary relationship while focusing solely on the unrealistic positive qualities of their secondary one. In short, they must detach themselves from reality in order to perpetuate the fantasy.

 

Sorry, this does not describe me. I knew what I was doing and accepted responsibility for my conduct. Also, I never blamed anyone else for my actions. I never demonized my wife. I did, however, fall in love with the other woman (who, by the way, was married). And yes, affairs do have powerful fantasy components. In a freudian sense, marriage represents the reality principle, an affair represents the pleasure principle.

 

 

 

More so, the adulterer further jeopardized the integrity of the primary relationship by becoming adept at lying and manipulation. The fear of “getting caught” only adds to the stress and emotional burden of the primary relationship. The cheater must work hard to fabricate alibis in order to keep his/her secret life from being discovered. After all, ‘discovery’ means the abrupt end of one’s fantasy and self imposed denial. It means suddenly having to deal with ‘reality,’ and thereby being forced to confront the very relationship issues he/she has been working so hard to avoid.

 

You're right on target, here. The "double life" burden is onerous.

 

Undeniably, the pain created by infidelity is inevitable and unavoidable – as is the damage to the primary relationship which is often irreversible.

 

Again, and quite sadly, you're on the money. That's a fair description.

 

All in all, you did an excellent job of delving into the mind of an adulterer.

[EnigmaXOXO]

All in all, you did an excellent job of delving into the mind of an adulterer.

 

Hardly just a “lucky guess.” Although I have never cheated myself, my education comes from being the naïve bystander on the other end of an affair…as well as the many people I have worked with and personal friends in my life who often felt too comfortable confiding in me.

 

And I never used the word “demonized.” I used the term “dehumanize.” As in your case, while you accepted responsibility for your actions, you also claimed in a previous post that your wife “did not care.” How would you even know how your wife felt about your affair if you never respected her enough as an ‘equal’ partner to tell her? How can you so easily assume that she has no feelings regarding the matter if you never cared enough about her as a person to ask?

 

Is this not also a form of “dehumanizing?” And when you were with your ‘soul mate’ did you ever say anything negative about you wife or your relationship to justify your behavior to the other woman?

 

My educated guess is that you did…

 

After all, the two of you certainly weren’t sitting around singing your spouses’ praises in those stolen moments when you were together. If you were, the affair would have never gotten past the initial attraction.

 

Denial …Denial… Denial!

 

But I imagine you’d make an excellent criminal defense attorney.

[moimeme]

That's it in a nutshell. Self-sacrifice has gone out of style. In a society where one is constantly urged to 'fuflil yourself', 'follow your desires', etc., nobody aspires to nobility. Qualities like self-denial used to be honoured and admired. Now somebody who does such a thing is considered stupid.

 

Oh, and my but people who engage in selfishness get on their high horses to defend themselves with all manner of high-falutin' excuses. They will do so eloquently and passionately. Really, though, it is a vain attempt to persuade themselves that the wrong they have done is, somehow, justifiable.

 

Why do I use the word 'wrong'? Because I firmly believe that hurting someone else is wrong. Much more so when that person loves and trusts you.

[bark]

Oh, and my but people who engage in selfishness get on their high horses to defend themselves with all manner of high-falutin' excuses. They will do so eloquently and passionately. Really, though, it is a vain attempt to persuade themselves that the wrong they have done is, somehow, justifiable.

 

There you go again, moimeme. The only person on her "high horse" is you. If you had BOTHERED reading my post to enigma you would have noticed I agreed with the overwhelming majority of her astute observations. What I won't do, my darling, is slit my wrists in apology. Sorry.

 

Also, dear, if you want to flame someone at least have the courtesy and candor to name the person whom you're flaming. I am not "people" or "they", I am bark. Don't resort to cheap rhetorical devices. At least be honest as opposed to your usual passive-aggressive self. And remember, as you like to say, "do no harm."

 

Signing off from my "high horse", this is bark.

[lostforwords]

Why do I use the word 'wrong'? Because I firmly believe that hurting someone else is wrong. Much more so when that person loves and trusts you.

 

So if a person was to keep it a secret then (the old saying what they dont know wont hurt them) and doesnt "hurt" that person for all the right reasons..... and there are people who do have full intentions of all the right reasons..... then i guess that makes it ok?.... because in fairness for whatever reasons the adulterer gives in essence he/she does not want to 'hurt' anybody..... so the affair could carry on for years.... etc..... quite much like of years and years ago for example George Washington.... not quite sur eif his wife knew of the affairs etc..... but in those days marriages did not rip apart.... even when they did find out their were affairs going on..... so i guess as time changes so does peoples opinions but do they change because it is the "Norm" or do they change because that is an actual opinion of how they feel due to experience or are they sitting on their high horse and casting judgement among people they have no clue about and insist they would NEVER fall upon that decision in there lives?.... now a days depending on who you talk to having an affair is the norm..... although in some peoples eyes not morally/socially acceptable..... who gives them the right to make a judgement on the adulterer? who gives them the right to say its morally unacceptable or socially?... theyve done research of monogamy on animals and some animals are devoted to their life mate.... some have many partners..... so my question then is for one who bases so much of life theory on facts from animal research etc regardinmg possible link to human behavior.... i guess its fair to say its as well the norm to have more than one mate? and who are we to despute such findings in research?

[lostforwords]

example George Washington

 

ROFL OK so it wasnt george boy! BUT IT WAS JEFFERSON!!! lmao i did have good intentions im just not up with american presidents... for god sakes im canadian.... lol

[moimeme]

Please give me an example of this where self denial was admired

 

Mother Theresa

 

Ghandi

 

Buddha

 

Christ

 

Saints

 

your armed forces

 

Will that do?

 

how could self denial EVER be HONORED or ADMIRED... LOL......

 

You seem not to be familiar with the meaning of 'self-denial':

 

self-de·ni·al (slfd-nl)

n.

Sacrifice of one's own desires or interests

http://www.dictionary.com

 

 

but what got you in that SPOT/PREDICAMENT in the first place??????.....

 

It apparently doesn't take much for a married man to offer to have sex with one. These were friends. I treated them as friends only. I almost never saw them alone. One was a pal before he got married. Another was not even my friend; his wife was more so. I knew him but not well. Still, I got offers in broad daylight fully clothed outdoors after what I thought was just our regular association. No innuendo. No flirting. NOTHING. Poof - suggestions of affairs.

 

And don't tell me there's no other woman on this site who hasn't refused at least one married guy in these circumstances.

[brashgal]

So we should jump off the bridge just because "having an affair is the norm"?

 

Sorry, not buying it.

 

And unfortunately for bark, it wasn't a "perfectly good family". He could have left and still been a father to his kids but not been untrue to his marriage.

 

I don't think bark felt he was accurately portrayed as an adulterer but somehow he got around his conscience, whether by dehumanizing his wife or deciding his needs superceded everyone elses. That bothers many of us who are adverse to hurting other people in this manner, especially the ones we love.

 

bark does present a good argument - made Rainbow feel he was right and in need of defense. bark is not defenseless Rainbow, save the vitriol for defense of a weaker poster.

[rainbow]

My life view is hurting others is wrong. Period. Lying, cheating, theft, bigotry, prejudice - you name it, if it hurts somebody it is wrong. That's it. We are not here to cause pain to others, particularly to satisfy our own selfish desires.

 

Where is the part about denying, ignoring, taking the other spouse for granted. Does that not hurt someone? It is b/c it is a side of hurt that no one has ever cared to look at . We automatcially have to try and figure out why the denying spouse is hurt. Again, I have to say that people don't just decide one day, I think I'll have an affair and throw the entire marriage away.. It is a slow dying process.

 

If you ever were to find yourself in this situation you may view it alittle different. I hope Bark and I are on the board that day. I don't feel that b/c you read ann landers and dear abby that makes you an expert on the dynamics of infidelity.

 

 

Express as you wish, please remember Bark and I were people who came for guidance and support and we are mentally torturing ourselves every waking moment and I certainly do not need other people to make me feel as I am a horrible person for my situation.

 

Could you morally blast a friend who had just confided in you that she had an abortion? Good friend.