Over or not over?

[seoa]

Same method - underlining the bits I'd leave out...

 

"R,

I can't do this anymore. You made a choice to end the relationship and have your space, and asked me to respect you and your decision.

 

Now I am asking you to respect me and my happiness. The bottom line is, I want more than this. I cannot be just your friend.I want much more than that from you and you are unable to give that to me.

you said 'i want more' twice... once is enough

 

I am very confused by your mixed messages and I can't stand being hopeful then crushed constantly. Undoubtedly we will talk again at some point, but for now I need some distance.

if you tell him how bad he's made you feel, when he thinks of you, he will feel guilty, which is not conducive to him then wanting to pursue you... there's such a thing as 'over-sharing'... you need to let him go, and guilt is not the way to do that...

 

If you come to the point where you do truly want to make this work as a couple, then by all means I am open to hearing from you and we can see where that goes.

(You don't need to say this - the bit above about 'i want more' already said that...

 

You broke up with me because you were unhappy. I feel that we absolutely did not have a bad relationship, there were issues of concern but as a big picture,

guilt again... "you did me WRONG"...

 

it's been more than beautiful and full of true love from both sides in my view. I want to leave it at that...

don't tell him what he feels...

 

I don't want to drag this out and for there to EVER be anything bad or hurtful between us. I think it's very important for us to have respect for each other. It would be a shame for us to lose that.

 

More than anything in the world I want you to be happy. And I want to be happy too.

 

Love always,

 

M"

 

so that leaves:

 

"R,

I can't do this anymore. You made a choice to end the relationship and have your space, and asked me to respect you and your decision.

 

Now I am asking you to respect me and my happiness. The bottom line is, I want more than this. I cannot be just your friend.

 

it's been more than beautiful in my view. I want to leave it at that...

 

More than anything in the world I want you to be happy. And I want to be happy too.

 

M"

[TaraMaiden]

so that leaves:

 

"R,

I can't do this anymore. You made a choice to end the relationship and have your space, and asked me to respect you and your decision.

 

Now I am asking you to respect me and my happiness. The bottom line is, I want more than this. I cannot be just your friend.

 

It's been more than beautiful in my view. I want to leave it at that...

Please do not contact me again, unless what you have to say is vital, significant, or essential.

 

Because more than anything in the world I want you to be happy. And I want to be happy too.

 

M"

 

I completely agree with this.

You need to keep the wishy-washy sentimenatlity out of it in order to make him understand you mean business.

Really, you do.

This is absolutely spot-on, and I urge you, truly to go with it.

 

I added a bit (in bold) to emphasise your intentions.

Send it as we have offered, above, then be done with this, mimi.

 

Please.

For your own sake, go with it.

[Raphownsyou]

I think i am going through something very similar,

 

Finding it soooo hard to let go, feel like this hope is keeping me down,

 

Let me know how you get on!

 

Wish you all the happiness in the world miniminx!

[9Lives]

I will follow through, no doubt about it. Although he does love me and has very strong feelings for me, I cannot and will not be second or on the back burner to him or anyone. I deserve to be in the full spotlight. He always, always had me in his spotlight but now, his own selfishness is getting in the way. He's subconsciously, or consciously keeping me on the hook and making sure I'm still 'around' IF he changes his mind. That is beneath me and something I will not or ever settle for from anyone. It is 6 weeks to the day that he left. This is it... The "strings" are the phone bill we share. I am most likely going to get my own plan as soon as I am able to do so.

 

Pretty, Strong Lady,

 

It is black and white. He's confused and you KNOW what you want. Go back to the drawing board. What do you want? Thats what you need to revist. Be a Big Girl and put that little boy down and FIND YOU A REAL MAN!! and regardless of who you meet ....YOU are the Star Player...not the man. You come FIRST FIRST, FIRST. He is a little boy

[ecm]

Seriously, I don't know if I'm "pms-ing" or what, but I think I've been on here more than facebook. You guys are fabulous and I feel all "girl power-y" after I read these. Added bonus- getting advice on my own situation without even having to explain it. wooo hoooo. HOWEVER- I just wanna ask two questions b/c I posted one but nobody really responded:

#1) Have any of you ever told someone you didn't love them even though you did? (Basically to get rid of them) AND... #2) Have you ever thought you DIDN'T love someone only to realize you did once you had the chance to miss them? I can answer yes to both, but it' shard being on THIS end of it this time. (Sorry, Mimi.. I'm not trying to steal your thunder, I just wanna know) ACTUALLY, if anyone has any advice on it... it's the only thread I started...

 

TaraMaiden: your response to my comments to you made me laugh. (Oh...no plese...don't do that....) It wsa funny.

 

Mimi- you BETTA' tell us if you sent it and what you sent... k? I suppose you dont' have to, but I'm curious now to see what happens...seeing if our advice helps/ deosn't help, etc. Good luck.

[mimiminx]

I didn't send it. I will, I just gave myself a deadline to send it (this Friday). I am prolonging sending it because I am afraid of the outcome. I do know what I want, and he doesn't. We've been here before, but not quite the same situation. I went to talk with my therapist today and told her about it. She said it sounds like the intention of the letter is to tell him what I want but at the same time protect my own heart. Me sending it isn't the end-all be-all, but I have been a wreck. I may never hear from him again! I've had 6 weeks to think about our relationship and my love for him, and I have never been so heartbroken. Although he is acting like a boy now not a man, I still love him with all my heart. Not an ounce less than before. In fact, I feel my love growing for him. Does that count for anything? Doesn't love count for anything?! My therapist also says that there seems to be a LOT of love between us, he vocalizes it, I can tell he still loves me and always has. A good friend of mine was discussing with me all the ways you can tell that a man really adores you, just in general. She went off on a list and as she was talking, everything she was saying I could relate to with him. People have told me that since we have been together, very often: "I can tell he really loves you", "I've never seen him so happy", etc.

We do bring out the best in eachother, I just honestly think our relationship had a communication problem! The therapist told me it sounds very much like a "pursuit-distance" thing.. this has also been a pattern for us in the beginning of the relationship, before we were a couple we went through a similar "chase" of me eventually saying "i can't do this anymore" and he pulled out all the stops and got rid of his fear and indecisiveness and SHOWED me he wanted me 100%. It's a long story but it's all kind of familiar.

The therapist said that he's very obviously trying to keep the bond between us and that is very significant that he's doing that. He's actively trying to maintain something with me. He's not cutting the ties. I know what many of you will say to that, that it's me that has to cut the ties. But he's hanging on. He's contacting me daily. I have no doubt in my mind that he really loves me. He's just afraid of something I think. I can go my own way. I'd like to think that true love brings people back together in time, but I am also open to other doors. I am a whole person without him, but I am much less happy without him in my life, that's for sure. I was in a terrible 4 year relationship before, and immediately after we split up (he became involved with another woman), I felt an immense sense of relief and happiness. Immediately, I felt free and that my life was SO much better without him. That's when I met R. He was my knight in shining armor. I have had so much respect for that man ever since I met him. He's no saint, but he is a good man in every way. (with the exception of breaking my heart). I truly love him. I truly do. And he loves me too. WHY do people who love eachother so much, and are in love, and who have respect for eachother and there is no abuse or infidelity, WHY do they break up? I'm trying to understand that.

I can try to lose my love for him in time, I just don't think it will ever die. I really don't. If it's grown stronger since we've been apart, how will it ever disappear? I can see myself always carrying a torch for him, even if I get involved with someone else, really! I will compare anyone to him. He's really the love of my life. I know that he may not feel that way towards me, but I always felt that same love back from him. How can it just go away? This still doesn't make sense.

I am going to send the email, just for my own self and my happiness. BTW, I was on FB again last night and he sent me a couple chats, "Hi" then waited awhile, "Goodnight"

He keeps reaching out to me. He hasn't ever stopped. Maybe eventually he will... I know, I deserve better than what he's giving me, of course I do, but I still love him more than anything. How can I let it go?

[westrock]

I just honestly think our relationship had a communication problem!

 

This is the best thing you've written in 9 pages of postings.

 

The therapist told me it sounds very much like a "pursuit-distance" thing..

 

I agree with your therapist. In a pursuit-distance relationship BOTH partners alternate between pursuit and distance. That means you are equally responsible for what has been happening here. His behavior is unacceptable, but you need to also recognise your involvement.

 

Because of the communication problems on both your parts, the two of you are now alternating back and forth betwen pursuit and distance. I went back to read your intial postings in this thread, and you wrote something very important:

 

We broke up, from what he tells me, because of circumstances and me not respecting his 'space' when he asked to be left alone. He knows how I feel about him and what i want.

 

What he was saying at the time was that you were pursuing him too much and he felt crowded and needed space from you. The only way he could handle it was to "distance" himself by literally moving away and breaking up with you. Because of your communication problem, he didn't know how to communicate his need for space, and in his mind you weren't listening. He is also responsible for not listening to your need for reassurance that triggered your pursuit of him. You may have communicated to him what you want, but he probably does not understand what you want.

 

But, as soon as he distanced himself, the two of you switched roles, and he started to pursue you as demonstrated by all of his relentless attempts to contact you on such a regular basis. But, he may be pursuing you, but he's not meeting your needs. Unfortunately, instead of communication, what you have done now is taken up the "distancer" role by basically avoiding most of his attempts to contact you. That's not communication by either partner.

 

Do you see how the two of you are in the pursuit-distance cycle and you are alternating back and forth?

 

You are now feeling your love grow for him because you are in the process of switching roles from a distancer to a pursuer. When you are in love, you naturally pursue to get closer. As soon as you send your email, you are going to feel a sense of immediately relief, but you stated yourself you are prolonging sending it because you are afraid of the outcome - you are afraid that you will never hear from him again (the ultimate distance move on his part), and as such you are going be feel abandoned and alone, and as a result you're going to want to start pursuing him. This is just the continuation of the pursuit-distance cycle.

 

I have no doubt the two of you actually love each other. It's obvious that you love him, and by what you've written, it's obvious he loves you. Unfortunately, the two of you have poor communication skills and the both of you are relying on a pursuit-distance cycle to get your needs met.

 

If you need to send that email to make you feel better so you can get some temporary relief from the situation, then send it, but understand the consequences.

 

Personally, if I were you, I would face the issue head on rather than perpetuating the pursuit-distance cycle. Next time he tries contacting you, I would not avoid it, but instead answer the phone and start communicating in a way that addresses the issues rather than avoids them. Straight up ask him what he meant when he said you were not respecting his space -- listen to what he's telling you and listen to what he needs for this relationship to work. Equally, you need to tell him straight up why you weren't giving him his space and you need to tell him what you need from him in a way that he understands. He needs to understand that moving away and breaking up does not help a relationship, and equally contacting you in the way he has been doing is not enough for you. All of this requires communication. Pursuit-distance behavior on the part of either you or your guy is not communication.

 

Just as you observed, I also just honestly think your relationship has a communication problem. I am wishing the best for you.

[mimiminx]

Thank you Westrock for the time you took to write this. Wow, I haven't looked at it this way before. Many, if not all of the things you wrote sound completely true in this situation. I kind of agree with you about answering the call or responding, although this would be contradictory to what I feel I "should" do... The problem is that he can't COMMIT to being with me or working things out. Maybe he wants to, but is afraid to, or he's just over it. It would be great if I could talk to him about the relationship, but I just don't think he's "there". Granted maybe I could bring it up. This does go against my whole NC idea, but the way you put it is correct, it is avoiding things and "distancing". Maybe just one last time I can talk to him about this... you've got me thinking. But what's the result? Just better communication? That doesn't solve the problem of the fact that we're still not together! What difference would this make if we're broken up? Isn't it really just better to disappear off the face of the planet and let him know what he's truly missing? I can only imagine how he would respond (if even engage) in the conversation if I were to tell him "I think we have had a communication problem. You felt that I was getting in your "space", making you feel backed into a corner. What did you mean when you said that I wasn't respecting your space? (I think I know the answer to that). What did you need instead that I wasn't giving you? On my end, when you withdrew, it made me feel like you were shutting me out and keeping your thoughts and feelings from me, even if you weren't intending to. Maybe you were just so fed up that the only thing you could think of to do was move away and break up with me. Although you may feel that was a solution, it only lessens the communication skills we were lacking to make a healthy relationship with healthy communication. You contacting me now, after the fact, has made me very confused because you left, from what I understand, because I wasn't respecting your space. If space is what you wanted, and now that I'm not around to invade it, you are going against what you were so upset about by persistently contacting me while I'm here hurt and heartbroken wondering what you really want." That is what the conversation would be if I were to actually talk to him about it. If nothing good came out of that conversation, I'd still send the email. You've got me thinking. Maybe this conversation needs to happen before I press that send button. I think I would feel better if we did talk about this first. Thank you for bringing this up.

[TaraMaiden]

Ker-ist the suspense is killing me....

 

"I used to be indecisive, but now I'm not so sure......"

 

One of you needs to take the bull by the horns....I hate to say it mimi, but I truly think you're really just over-thinking this.

 

And, cruel as it may sound, you're playing into the drama.

 

Your payoff is that this is getting you the attention you require, just not in the way or measure you require it.

From him, AND from us.

Holly mackerel, 9 pages and counting, of "shall I sha'n't I?"

 

And at the risk of really getting slapped down, you're developing the tendencies of an 'Emotional Vampire'..... I'd hate to see that actually come to pass.

 

Look: all you need to tell him is that you've realised that you're both just participating in a pull-me-push-you mind game, and that as far as you're concerned, you're done with it.

Hell, cut 'n' paste westrock's post, send that, then sit and wait.

 

Truly, all it needs is 2 lines.

 

Why is that so difficult?

[ecm]

One of you needs to take the bull by the horns....I hate to say it mimi, but I truly think you're really just over-thinking this.

 

 

So true, and I do it to. Does anyone really NOT overthink these things? If everyone doens't evrthink these things, I am so jealous.

 

PS What's an "emotional vampire"?

[seoa]

The problem is that he can't COMMIT to being with me or working things out. Maybe he wants to, but is afraid to, or he's just over it. It would be great if I could talk to him about the relationship, but I just don't think he's "there". Granted maybe I could bring it up. This does go against my whole NC idea

 

Mimi... oh, mimi...

 

This distance-pursue thing is exactly what NC is about... you need to stop pursuing ("go NC") so that he can stop needing to distance himself, and take his turn pursuing...

 

Then, and only then, will you be in a position to say "these things need to change if we are to try again".

 

At the moment, he wants distance, so he's not interested in changing - he thinks that *you* need to do all of that...

 

Obviously you have to do what you think is best, but don't think that we don't understand, that we haven't gone through the same heartbreak, and the same 'we were so good together, i don't understand why we're apart'...

 

You are not alone!

[TaraMaiden]

google it.

 

and read this thread.

[westrock]

But what's the result? Just better communication? That doesn't solve the problem of the fact that we're still not together!

You're underestimating the value of communication in a relationship. It's the glue that holds everything together. Without communication you have nothing. He's having trouble committing to you because you two are not good at communicating.

 

If your guy wasn't interested, he would have been long gone a long time ago. He wouldn't be wasting his time with all his recent attempts to contact you. He acts the way he does because just as you are afraid to lose him, he is afraid that you will suffocate him. Read over again why he told you he left. Although he is now trying to have some communication with you, he is keeping you at a distance because he is afraid that if he comes back to you completely, you will become needy again and smother him again. Until the two of you can start communicating better and address each others fears, you will just smother him again, and he will leave again, and the pursuit-distance cycle will continue. You need to understand your fears, but you also need to understand his fears. How have you addressed that concern he has about you?

I can only imagine how he would respond (if even engage) in the conversation if I were to tell him "I think we have had a communication problem. You felt that I was getting in your "space", making you feel backed into a corner. What did you mean when you said that I wasn't respecting your space? (I think I know the answer to that). What did you need instead that I wasn't giving you? On my end, when you withdrew, it made me feel like you were shutting me out and keeping your thoughts and feelings from me, even if you weren't intending to. Maybe you were just so fed up that the only thing you could think of to do was move away and break up with me. Although you may feel that was a solution, it only lessens the communication skills we were lacking to make a healthy relationship with healthy communication. You contacting me now, after the fact, has made me very confused because you left, from what I understand, because I wasn't respecting your space. If space is what you wanted, and now that I'm not around to invade it, you are going against what you were so upset about by persistently contacting me while I'm here hurt and heartbroken wondering what you really want." That is what the conversation would be if I were to actually talk to him about it.

This is a start. It expresses what you need. That's good. Have you told him this before as you have written? More importantly, have you listened to his response? I once heard some great advice about the key to good communication: you were born with 2 ears and 1 mouth, use them in that proportion. Put your focus on listening.

 

Hell, cut 'n' paste westrock's post, send that, then sit and wait.

That would work

 

you need to stop pursuing ("go NC") so that he can stop needing to distance himself, and take his turn pursuing...

Then, and only then, will you be in a position to say "these things need to change if we are to try again".

At the moment, he wants distance, so he's not interested in changing - he thinks that *you* need to do all of that...

She is already in that position right NOW. He has stopped distancing himself by his relentless attempts to contact her, and she is distancing by ignoring all his requests. He's now the one pursing by all his attempts to contact her. This puts her exactly in the position right now to say "these things need to change if we are to try again". Now she just needs to act on it by communicating better with him.

[TaraMaiden]

westrock, you rock.

 

I'll tell you what, if mimi doesn't follow though with what you advise, I'll do it with my fella.

Even though I absolutely totally do not need this advice at all, in any way shape or form, I'll still do it. Because it's actually spot-on, and brilliant.

Truly brilliant.

 

Mimi, if you don't do this - you are one lost cause, my darling. and nothing more anybody can ever say, will be able to get you out of the hole you've dug for yourselves now.

You will never - NEVER - ever receive better counsel than this.

 

Ever.

[mimiminx]

Westrock- thank you again.

Ok, so what you are all saying makes complete sense. What I should do is the next time he contacts me, address this issue. And accordingly,then send the email I drafted to him, go NC and be done with it. Am I getting this right? I'm sorry, I've gotten so much advice, I'm a little confused.

[seoa]

I'm also confused... yes, he's contacting her, but it's not the "i want you back" (pursuing) kind of communication that puts her in a position where she can say "and X must change if we can go forward in a healthy manner"...

 

My understanding (correct me if I'm wrong, Mimi) is that he's still listing the things that SHE has done wrong, to explain why they are apart... as in: he is still in 'distancing himself' mode...

 

Yes, he's communicating, but it's just for self-validation, so he's not too lonely while distancing himself...

 

Mimi - if he's not saying "I want you back, what do I have to do", then he still wants his distance, and your best chance for switching him from D to P, is if you first switch from P to D....

 

As in: go NC... as per the previous 10 pages of advice...

 

Westrock's viewpoint only works (IMO) if he's currently begging for you back.

[ecm]

google it.

 

and read this thread.

 

TaraMaiden- Fabulous. Thanks. I thought about googling it after I asked. This is good info.

 

Mimi- this is really good advice. There are some smart people in here. Take advantage of it! I certainly am!

[mimiminx]

This thread of "Over or Not Over?" is almost OVER I promise.

I am still confused. You are telling me to follow westrock's advice and NOT go NC? Communicate with him? I apologize, all the vampire talk distracted me. I am sorry if I seem dense.. this is what i am getting. I haven't sent the email. Are you saying I should either send it and disappear from the face of the planet (NC) or communicate with him?! I am really struggling to do the best thing here, I just don't understand what you are trying to tell me.

Somebody give me a swift kick here...

Seoa, I hear what you are saying, just want to be sure I understand everyone's input correctly.

[TaraMaiden]

Go with westrock's advice, and tell him, clearly, unemotionally and succinctly that you stronly believe and suspect you have a communication problem.

Give him an inkling of what you mean, by using some of westrock's post (the first one I told you to cut and paste and send...) and let him know that you think you've both fallen into the trap of playing these roles and mind-games.

 

Then tell him that if he too sees this, and believes that it's accurate, and wants to address it to save your relationship - something you BOTH have to work on - then to contact you to say - "Yes. I see what you mean. I agree. I think we need to learn to communicate more effectively and learn to be two close, loving free individuals within a relationship."

If he has anything other than this to say, it's best you remain detached and go no contact.

 

Anything else - prevarication, accusation, defensiveness and distancing means he is not committed enough to make it work with you.

Unless he wants to make it work as much as you do, go No Contact.

 

As I see it......

[mimiminx]

Thank you Tara M. I think this is a good idea. Will do, will do. Here's what I wrote:

 

"Communication is the glue that holds everything together. Very often people end relationships due to unhealthy communication skills. I truly believe we have had a communication problem. You felt that I was getting in your "space", making you feel backed into a corner. What did you mean when you said that I wasn't respecting your space? Did you feel that I was smothering you? What did you need instead that I wasn't giving you?

On my end, when you withdrew, it made me feel like you were shutting me out and keeping your thoughts and feelings from me, even if you weren't intending to. This made me want to get through your "wall" so I could be reassured and understand what you wanted and where you were coming from. Maybe you were just so fed up that the only thing you could think of to do was move away and break up with me. Although you may feel that was a solution, it only lessens the communication skills we were lacking to make a healthy relationship with healthy communication. You contacting me now, after the fact, has made me very confused because you left, from what I understand, because I wasn't respecting your space. If space is what you wanted you are going against what you were so upset about by persistently contacting me. Now, we are stuck in these roles of avoidance and pursuit and I feel it has been an undercurrent throughout our relationship, even now. Avoidance will not solve the problem, neither is being disrespectful of one's "space". The areas in which we BOTH were lacking. This is not healthy communication and I have finally seen the light and completely understand now why you would say that it was "unhealthy". I am completely aware now that this was a HUGE problem that I would like to address.

I would like to hear what you think about this. If you see this as accurate and would like also to address it to save our relationship, please let me know."

[Exit]

Wow that is really well written. Wish I could give something like that to my ex.

[seoa]

sounds good, well written... let's see what results it gets... good luck

[TaraMaiden]

mimi, I hope this works well for you.

I will be the first to admit that originally, I was urging you to simply cut off all ties and go No Contact.

I am no longer of that opinion, and I'm happy to say that.

 

Nothing is ever cut 'n' dried, and it's very easy to jump to a solution when all you have is the black and white story on a forum thread.

 

being in it, is the most difficult thing, and I hope we have been of some help to you....

 

This, I know for sure, for sure:

The three composites, or 'pillars' that go to support a relationship, are:

 

Trust

Respect

Communication.

 

And it takes Effort and Commitment to supply the steady maintenance....

 

If one of these is missing, or 'faulty', then the relationship has a hard time remaining steady and stable. Like the legs on a tripod, the other two can't do it alone, no matter how fixed and firm they are.

 

Remember this, for now and in future.

Get the communication right, here, and hopefully things will pan out fine.

 

I hope he responds positively.

If he doesn't, then really, I think you've done all you can.....

[mimiminx]

Thank you! Wow, thank you everyone. I truly feel that every situation is different and black and white may not always apply. I can honestly say that I've done everything I could. I have learned that a healthy relationship cannot survive on love alone. Trust, respect, and communication are essential. Like you said TM, when one is faulty, the relationship cannot remain stable, even though the others are intact. This has been a valuable lesson for me. Of course I hope for a positive response from him... it may take some time, but we will see. I will keep posting.

[westrock]

westrock, you rock.

 

I'll tell you what, if mimi doesn't follow though with what you advise, I'll do it with my fella.

Even though I absolutely totally do not need this advice at all, in any way shape or form, I'll still do it. Because it's actually spot-on, and brilliant.

Truly brilliant.

 

Mimi, if you don't do this - you are one lost cause, my darling. and nothing more anybody can ever say, will be able to get you out of the hole you've dug for yourselves now.

You will never - NEVER - ever receive better counsel than this.

 

Ever.

 

TaraMaiden.. thanks so much for your kind words! You just made my day.