Undecided and stuck, need some input

[Mrs. Ambivalent]

So here’s my story, and what brings me to ask for help/advice from you all. I’ve been reading lots of posts (Lupa’s took me 2 hours) and you guys are all great people.

 

So here goes

 

 

H and I have been married 18 years. First marriage for both of us. We now have 2 teenage sons, the youngest has high functioning Autism.

 

Our marriage has had its ups and downs through the years. When we are in a ‘down’ time it’s usually because of his out of control temper/anger/anxiety issues.

 

If you met him you’d like him. Deep down he’s a good guy who doesn’t realize the extent of the damage he’s doing to his family. On the outside it seems like we have a good marriage, if we split there are a lot of people who will be shocked.

 

Looking back the signs were all there. I would describe myself as a very energetic, fun loving, down to earth, funny, happy person. He’s more reserved and stand offish. I was attracted to his stability and good sense of humor and the laid back way about him. I was very young but all I ever wanted in life was to be a wife and mother. My husband had a dysfunctional childhood with alcoholism and some abuse, both physical and emotional, going on in his family.

 

After almost 20 years of being with him I have figured out that his reserved, stand offish ways are more of an anxiety about doing things. He has a lot of anxiety and a lot of anger. And through the years this has evolved into him calling the shots about everything. We live a very boring life because I can’t get him to go anywhere or do anything. I’m a very social person and I feel I have sacrificed a lot. We can’t have friends over (hardly ever, he will give in occasionally). Basically – intentionally or not- he has manipulated us into this boring lifestyle. He’ll complain about money when it’s really that he doesn’t want to go on a vacation because of his anxieties, as an example.

 

It may sound like I’m submissive by letting him orchestrate our lives but it just came to the point where I didn’t want to put up with the crap anymore. I didn’t invite people over anymore because he was such a jerk to me while I was trying to get the house ready and threw a fit over whatever during the day, it just wasn’t worth it so he got his way and we don’t have company anymore. As an example that’s what I mean about orchestrating our lives this way.

 

Some people may read this and think he’s controlling, and he’s not controlling to me like checking up on me and calling me 10x a day and having to have things a certain way, it’s just that he tries to control certain things because of his anxieties. Like he doesn’t like to socialize much so if I mention having friends over he’ll complain about the money it will cost or whatever, and then he’ll be a jerk and I’ll just say ‘forget it’. So he gets his way but it’s him not wanting to have to socialize with people.

 

He acts like he doesn’t even like me anymore. I can’t have a conversation with him (I’m too long winded or so he says and if I start to tell a story he immediately starts rolling his eyes), I can’t ask him for help with anything relating to the house. I do everything. I pay bills, I make all of the big purchases, I do everything relating to the kids. We have a son with special needs and he can’t handle him at all so I do everything. Doctors, therapists, occupational therapists, PPT’s, meetings at the school, everything. I don’t feel like I have a partner going through life. I feel like a single mom already, with the added stress of him being home and being grumpy all day long and dragging everyone down.

 

I am a very simple, patient person. All I want at the end of the day is someone to say ‘how was your day?’ and to listen to my response. At the end of the day he’ll say to me ‘what the hell have you been doing all day?’, and then won’t even listen to what I tell him I did that day.

 

Through the years he has lashed out at me many times. Calling me names and yelling at me. His anger is out of control at times. Not in a physically abusive way but I certainly would call it abuse. He does this in front of the kids often. He will later justify why he acted that way. Most of the time it’s because he felt criticized. For example I could say “I turned the burner off since your rice is done”, and he will hear “you lazy no good person why didn’t you get off your butt and turn the rice off”. Seriously, sometimes that’s all it takes for him to go into this stupid tirade and start yelling and verbally attacking me. If he feels criticized he just attacks

 

My oldest son has commented a lot during the last 6 months or so that dad ‘gets mad for no reason at all’.

 

He just has a lot of anger under the surface and it doesn’t take much for it to come boiling out. He talks to us all like we’re idiots. As an example: Our oldest son does well in school. Last year during final exam week he didn’t study much. I didn’t think much about it because he’s an honor roll student and has a large study hall every other day and I figured he was studying then. I trust his judgment since he does well in school. Well my H asked him if he was going to study that night and he said ‘no’ and my H shot back “Well of course not, because studying is for the smart kids, where they have a special spot picked out just for you at the Home Depot”. Totally uncalled for. If he wanted to get his point across he could have said “I know you feel comfortable going into the exams but I still think it would be good for you to look through everything one more time”, or something along those lines. It’s like he doesn’t feel like he gets his point across w/o offending everyone. Our oldest is a sweet, smart, sensitive kid. He doesn’t deserve that.

 

So here’s where I’m trying to figure things out. I have a hard time making that decision to leave. We have almost no debt - just a small mortgage (thanks Dave Ramsey) and I make a good income and could live on my own with the kids if I had to until things get settled. So it’s not the money that’s keeping me here. I previously worried so much about the kids that I couldn’t bear to put them through it. But now with my oldest (16) making all of those comments about dad and then standing by while H yelled at me and called me names the other day looking very upset, I think he’ll understand why I’m doing this. Or why mom and dad need some time apart. My youngest son has no attachment to him (Autism) since I’m the preferred parent because H resents him for having Autism IMO.

 

I think I feel guilty because I really do think deep down he’s a good person. He just needs help with his anger and anxiety. He needs happy pills, an anger management class and a therapist and then maybe we can be on the road to a happy marriage.

 

Almost 2 years ago we went to therapy. Really my son was in therapy to help him with his social skills and the therapist could tell my H and I were not on the same page so she asked us to come in together. That started us going to see her weekly because she could tell the stress and strain in our marriage. This was good in a way because he admitted he has this anger issue and agreed to try to do better. He was very honest with her about his dysfunctional childhood and didn’t hold anything back and said things that he had never confided in me before. This made me feel very sad for him actually. He told her he knew his anger was affecting our relationship and that it’s been a problem for a long time. He would leave there and immediately (on the way to the car) promise to do better. But he wouldn’t. Eventually he felt the therapist and I were ‘picking’ on him and things got busy at his work so we stopped going.

 

Even though what I’m describing is bad, we have had our times where things were good also. It’s those good times where things were calm and there was a lot of love that got me through. But there were many times where I would think to myself “I cannot live like this the rest of my life”.

 

In the past year or so things have gotten worse. One time he even said to me after an argument “I’m sorry, you have to give me another chance”, like he knew I was contemplating leaving, even though I never have threatened to leave.

 

BUT having said all of that it’s impossible to have that conversation with him. He always thinks he’s right. If I was home more, if the house was cleaner, if dinner was on the table every night, fill in the blank, things would be better and he would be happy. But he wouldn’t be. There’s always this underlying anger with him. It’s something I can’t fix, only he can fix. So many of my friends have said I need to tell him how I’m feeling, but it’s impossible. He’s so angry and hard to approach.

 

Slowly but surely after this many years I am so drained I have nothing left. I have no fight left in me. I never wanted to be divorced, I never wanted to get divorced, I never wanted to put my kids through it. I’m so confused. A friend asked me the other day if I still loved him and I honestly don’t know.

 

If our lives keep on like this for another 40 years I’m going to look back at my life and feel like I got cheated. I’m such a good person. I have lots of friends, I’m funny, I’m accomplished, I have a good heart, I deserve so much more out of someone who was suppose to be my life partner. I feel very alone in this marriage.

 

I’m reading this book called ‘too good to leave, too bad to stay’, and it has given me a lot of clarity. After reading that book I feel like even if the anger was gone we would still have a lot of issues in our marriage.

 

As a side note there's another book I think some of you guys would like, can't recall the exact name, something like 'how to keep things together when your relationship is coming apart'. Good so far!

 

I feel very selfish leaving him. I feel like I’m putting my happiness above everyone else’s happiness. I am a rule follower, a people pleaser, I feel like I made a promise to him and to the kids and I’m breaking that promise.

 

I have Dr. Phil’s voice in my head saying “you have to earn your way out of your marriage”. Meaning you have to do everything you can to make it work and if it doesn’t work then you can leave with a clear conscience, so to speak. I question if he is unwilling or unable to be the person he needs to be for me to stay in this marriage.

 

My other issue is how to do this. So many of you have been the ones who were ‘left’ and I can see/feel the pain. How do I do this if I leave to hurt him less? Do I make it clear he’s got some time to fix this? Do I drag him to counseling one more time? I need to be able to look in the mirror and know I did everything I could and leaving was the only option.

 

Any insight you can give me would be wonderful.

 

Thanks for listening, if you’re still with me.

[tojaz]

Welcome to LS Mrs. A.

You obviously have done a lot of thinking and soul sarching on this to put together such a well thought out and honest post.

 

it sounds to me that you still love him and want this to work, but are quickly reaching the end of your rope, Yes?

 

I'd like to ask about the other stressors in his life that he may be bringing home and venting unjustly on his family. Job? Extended family? Etc.

 

i ask this because i had similar issues on a smaller scale that it took a lot of digging and reflection to recognize. the stresses in my life outsid of my marriage would be vented toward my wife unfairly when no other safe release was available. Small things like a missed chore or forgotten errand became a major slight in my mind stacked atop many stresses she did not contribute to. 100% my fault there although i don't believe thats what lead to my dicorce, it was something I had to learn about myself.

 

i would suggest trying counseling again, it sounds like he responded well to it and was open to the help, maybe a different counsellor would yield better results. I would also be honest with him about what your feeling. There is nothing worse for those of us left behind to know that we never had a chance to save our marriage, or even know it was in trouble, such was mine.

 

keep posting, were all listening

TOJAZ

[PWSX3]

A lot of this sounds like I was a year ago. Didn't have the anger problem but always needed to be in charge so I felt comfortable....

 

I am one on LS that hates divorce & feel everyone should do all they can before getting to that point.

 

I would like to suggest you check out a book by Henry Cloud/John Townsend called Boundaries. There are also classes taught at churches on this book and others they have written that are very helpful if that is your cup of tea. For me it was a life saver, but it didn't help my marriage because I am now divorced, but I didn't know about this stuff before that.

 

Like tojaz suggested you set down with your H & tell him how you feel. First explain that you want to share with him and that he doesn't need to say anything. You don't want him to fix anything, you don't want him to explain anything, but just listen to what you have to say.

When he starts to talk just kindly tell him you are not finished & you are serious about this & want him to just listen. This might take a while to get accomplished because it would have for me but just keep trying. I am a type that has to fix everything so it has taken me a while to learn to just "listen".... and I'm still working on that one..

 

If he is like me he will have all kinds of excuses why you are feeling that way, but it will take him a while to "hear" what you are saying, but I feel once he "hears" you then maybe that is when you can start working on things.

 

Have you suggested going to classes for anger? It was good that he went to counseling but that is just the beginning. Like Steve Arturburn says; you can read all the books, see all the counselors but "WHAT ARE YOU" going to do about it. You have to take action, which means to get into groups, get help from others & just reading a book won't help.

I know it isn't for everyone & it depends on your religious beliefs but some of the bigger church's have great marriage classes and other classes such as celebrate recovery, anger management, etc.

 

I really don't feel a divorce or separation is in order just yet. I don't feel your H understands how serious this issue is for you & he just needs to be woken up. I would have to say if someone would ask him how his marriage is he would say; it is a good marriage & there are no problems because he only sees his side. You have already explained that he controls the situation in order to not feel out out of control and that could be a sign of low self esteem.

 

I wish I could remember what Henry Cloud said the other day on the radio. Something to the effect is when someone tells you they will do better that is an excuse. It's when they start to do something about it that you know they are serious.

 

I feel for you because I was the person you are wondering if it is worth staying with. I know you can't change how people are but hopefully you can wake them up so they can realize that it's not all about them but you are a team.

 

Opposites do attract, he is a home body you like going out. My counselor & his wife are like that as well & he says it works out great. He helps her from being so social and talking to everyone & she helps him to get out more then he would, which has allowed him to make friends he would have never done before.

 

Are there activities that you can go to that he doesn't have to? Maybe a night out with the girls, or a movie night by yourself. There are three parts to a marriage, you, him, & us.....We all need to have our own hobbies, our own activities but we also need to have some we do as a couple.

 

I hope you don't give up yet, sounds like there is some work to be done but it is well worth putting the work into your marriage then trying to start over.

 

Trust me a divorce hurts a lot more people then just the two that are married and another relationship (I know you aren't interested but some day) takes even more work so why not try to work on this one?????

 

I wish you the best!!!

[floridapad]

Tojaz is right. Honesty is the best policy. Unfortunately my wife waited until it was too late for her to tell me she had no feelings. I'll never forget the day. She said it in a very sincere,sad tone without crying. It woke me right up and made me realize what I was losing. If she had communicated to me in this style long before I would have awakened and made the changes I have today and our marriage would be alive today. He needs a real wake up call but not in a stern or lecturing way. My wife used to communicate in (perceived) nagging ways and it just doesn't work. If you have already tried this, then try communicating in a way you haven't ever done before. Let him know that you are no longer going to live your life this way. You want more from life. In the end though HE needs to be the one to want to change and real change usually only comes with an epiphany which typically comes from a LOT of pain. He needs to know he is losing you. Truly in his heart. He needs to believe you. But if you have had these conversations before then he will not believe you because you are still there. Yes, this is marriage and for your own peace of mind it will sit with you alot better down the road if you knew you did everything to make it work. But it's time to be 100% honest with him and your feelings. DO NOT be afraid to hurt him. This is the only way he will awaken. He NEEDS to feel that pain. He needs to know he is losing/lost you, but the real trick is he needs to BELIEVE it.

[soheartbroken]

You could almost just read him what you wrote us. It is very honest and candid. I agree with Tojaz that if you can, give him a chance to save the marriage. Individual counseling for him might be a better idea than marriage counseling at this point. That way he won't feel ganged up on.

[Mrs. Ambivalent]

You guys are awesome. This is exactly what I was looking for.

 

Tojaz-I don't think there is anything out of the ordinary bothering him that would make him more stressed and/or more prone to lash out. I always thought when he got older maybe he would mellow out. And instead it seems worse. Maybe that's the reason I feel like I'm at the end of my rope. Because maybe for me that was the light at the end of the tunnel, that he would get older, the kids would get older, we would feel more financially settled and he would relax. (I mention money a lot because for him everything is about money) I remember the therapist asked him if he thought that I would ever leave him and he said 'no, I don't think she would', then went on to say that he doesn't believe in divorce. Maybe he's not happy with me either and since he 'doesn't believe in divorce' he feels stuck also. Not sure.

 

PWSX3 - Your reply made me tear up and gave me some great guidance, I appreciate it more than you know. I have bought 3 books on anger for him at various times in the past 2 years, but never had the guts to give them to him. All 3 times my plan was to leave him the book(s) with a note from me and the boys and to stay at my moms for a night or two while it sunk in. When I think about things like this it makes me realize how many years we've been going through this and how hard it has been on me to be up and down. When things are good I'm afraid to make waves and when things are bad I just want to go. I will definitely look up 'Boundaries'. And I think I have a pretty full life outside of the house, and the therapist has even said to me 'you know, maybe that's why you don't make plans to leave, because your life is fulfilled in other ways', and in a way she's right. I do lots of things with my friends, with the kids, volunteer at the school, I have a fulfilling job, etc., etc. But I feel like a big part is missing, and that is having a partner to go through life with. I can talk to my friends all day long but at the end of the day they have their H's and their lives and I come home to grumpy. If he doesn't want to take a vacation I can go with the kids, if he doesn't want to have people over I can socialize w/o him. I don't mind that sort of thing, I'm an independent person. I know I can't change that part of him. BUT again I just want a partner when we're together.

 

floridapad & soheartbroken - very true stuff. I feel I owe it to him to give him that chance. If he doesn't take the chance then at least I can say I tried. I'm not at all comfortable with the blindside.

 

I honestly don't think he'll make the best of it. Maybe if I go with the plan of taking the kids to my moms for a few days after talking to him and leaving him the anger books he'll realize I really mean it. But it won't seem so final as me say renting an apartment.

 

I keep focusing on MC but maybe you're right, maybe individual counseling will be better for him and he won't feel like the therapist and me are against him. And also maybe he will do better with a man therapist, any thoughts on that?

 

So thanks again. Oh, and I got a good laugh when I realized I complained about how my H doesn't listen to my stories because they are long and then I typed 3 pages of stuff here. Yup, I'm long winded. But I have other qualities that he likes so he should just smile and nod when I tell long stories shouldn't he??

[soheartbroken]

I think you write wonderfully and it makes it easy to read.

 

I'm not a guy, but my gut tells me that a male counselor for your H would be better. Maybe the men on here have some perspective?

 

You could try the plan of staying at your mom's. I'm not sure that that will be a big enough wake up call though, given some of the things you have said...

 

At any rate, I'm pretty inexperienced on the separation front, so hopefully some guys on here will have an idea of what it might take to make him really wake up.

[tojaz]

Mrs A.

 

Theres no reason that IC and MC cannot work in unison, it is suggested all the time. I would look into both IC can help him with his personal anger issues and MC can help you both clear the air and relate to each other better. I hear great things about the church groups PW mentions also another handy resource.

 

I'd like to suggest a couple of books as well.

Reconcilable Differences>http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1572305096/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_1?pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=1572302615&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=0MVRHP2WGDVS1DH4PH20 Deals with how couples intereact with each other and a lot of the thought process that goes on behind the scenes, once you talk with him, it may be good to read it together. I learned a lot.

 

The Verbally Abusive Relationship>http://www.amazon.com/Verbally-Abusive-Relationship-Recognize-Respond/dp/1558505822/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1252377553&sr=1-1

I believ there is a lot of that present in your relationship.

 

Good luck Mrs. A.

TOJAZ

[Mrs. Ambivalent]

Thanks again!

 

I think my plan is to have this talk with him in October and be prepared to leave incase he just gets over the top angry with me. I'm waiting til October because I feel like I need to get my ducks in a row.

 

I know it may seem silly but I just want to get the house organized and copy some financial paperwork and take anything out of the house that I don't want to lose incase I don't come back for a while. Photo albums and stuff like that.

 

I don't think it will come to that, I hope that he listens to me and takes me seriously and agrees to work on our marriage. But I have to remember that he always lashes out at me if he feels he's being criticized and even if I don't come at him in an accusatory tone that may be how he takes it. So I think I need to be ready to leave just incase.

 

Any other advice out there I'll take it.

 

Have a great day everyone

[tojaz]

Theres some pretty good advice here, once you get past all the cutsy cat stuff. http://www.drirene.com/index.asp Theres a form to contact her and relate your story to others as well.

[PWSX3]

If you are pretty sure he will blow up when you talk to him maybe you should have a third party to help such as a counselor, or your pastor, etc.

 

I can only use my own experience but I remember when my former W tried to talk to me, I would just defend my side, how I felt. I would try & and prove her wrong.

 

Even when we went to counseling I would try & prove I was right. It wasn't until I started coming to LS (my first thread long time ago) that my eyes were finally opened. It took a big 2x4 across the head from a4a & the kind words from Dgiirl to finally wake me up. Then "I" finally decided I better do something about this but by then it was to late, but I still went to the classes at a local church and that is what has helped me.....

 

So if your H is anything like I was & it sounds like he is, I'm pretty sure he won't listen to you without help.

 

I would suggest you read that book Boundaries before talking to him, hopefully it would help. You might have to stop & tell him the same thing over & over until he gets it. Let him know you mean business & that you are serious. You don't want him to do anything except listen & I'm pretty sure he will jump in a few times trying to defend himself, but you will need to stop him each time & explain again that he doesn't need to do anything except listen.

 

Most guys just don't understand how good they do have it at home, they don't understand that the W does have ideas & we need to work together instead of just being the boss.

 

Keep fighting for the marriage if that is what you want. Don't give up until you feel you have done everything possible. I feel separation is the last resort but it might be what it will take for him to finally see the light.

 

Good luck & keep us posted....

[singledad2]

Wow...I can really feel your pain.

 

I believe this is salvageable, but he has alot of work to do. He does not sound like he is on a spiritual journey. He needs counseling big time to fix his wounds and it is the only thing right now (and it could be too late for your marriage) but you may have to leave to get it to happen. As long as he thinks it can be fixed between you or that its not a problem it will linger and fester until you leave. I pray that he sees the damage he is doing before its too late. You need to find out if he really wants to be in the marriage and if he does, it will maybe wake him up. I wish I knew my wife had felt unloved and I wish she knew I felt dis-respected. That is what he is angry about. Not the stuff he is ranting about. He doesn't feel respected. He has some cultural thing about the house and kids and those responsibilities too, maybe??

 

Please be open to the counseling. You need some too. You are on the "enabling" side.

 

Please get professional help to make it through. I wish my marriage had the chance....

[silverfish]

Hi Mrs A

 

There are a lot of similarities in your story & mine. I left (moved out) over 18 months ago now, so I thought I'd just say what I think I did wrong so maybe it might help you?

 

When I moved out it was for my own sanity & health - I was at the end of my tether. What I didn't do was really clarify what I wanted to achieve by this at the time.

 

I wanted to make him sit up & see how serious things had got. He honestly acted like he hated me before I left. He said he no longer considered me to even be a friend when i asked if he still loved me.

 

I think a lot of things get said in anger so you need distance to work out your issues and get them down in black and white. I didn't do this for about 3 months after.

 

You need to decide if you are prepared to go down the road of couples counselling and if you do are you going to both going to agree not to see other people while you do it. That might sound obvious to everyone? Also, I think it's helpful to have some sort of deadline or cut off point...y'know...so you're not still in the same situation in 2 years time.

 

It's a really difficult line between showing that you MEAN it by leaving - ie things have got to change, but also wanting to work things out. My ex was so mad with me after I left he refused to talk to me at all. But then he was mad with me before too so it was hard to tell the difference really

 

The anger / verbal abuse is the most painful part for me. I forgave & forgot so many times I guess I just taught him it was Ok to treat me like that. I too had a massive moment of clarity when my 11 yr old son started 'answering back' and got dragged by his Dad by the hair. My ex was physically abused by his Dad.

 

It as very different for me when i saw it happening to my son. I got very 'lioness' let's say, about it. I took it for myself, but i couldn't stand back and watch my son take it.

 

So...I would say, be very clear with him about what you want to achieve. Sort out money and practicalities, I know you're doing this, but childcare was my major issue.

 

There are probably more things (I made a lot of mistakes!) but that's all I can think of at the mo !

 

''I need to be able to look in the mirror and know I did everything I could and leaving was the only option.''

 

Hell, I can even kiss the mirror sometimes now!

 

take care x

[Mrs. Ambivalent]

I also feel like I have allowed this to happen. Definitely makes me an 'enabeler'. Dr. Phil always says (he's my therapist HA;)) that you teach people how to treat you. Somewhere along the line I let it happen and let it go and then it continued.

 

Not taking the full responsibility, of course, but I feel like I could have nipped it in the bud so to speak many years ago and not allowed it to continue.

 

I was very young, 20 years old, when we met and we married about 2 years later and have been married about 18 years. I think when he would act out and lash out in the beginning I was young and scared to talk back.

 

My parents had a great marriage and they were each other's best friend, I wasn't use to seeing this kind of behavior in a marriage. I didn't know what to do when things got difficult.

 

Silverfish, are you glad that you left? Looking back (aside from the mistakes you say you made) are you happy that you left? How is your son handling it all?

 

On fathers day John McCain was on TV talking about how influential fathers were in their son's lives. I asked my 16 year old what he's learned from his father and he said to me 'how not to be mad for no reason and how not to care about money more than I care about anything else'.

 

That's what made me realize the lessons he's teaching our son. And I'm also teaching him that it's o.k to let someone treat you this way, and/or that it's o.k to treat your wife that way. It's just wrong.

 

Singledad2- he has a big thing with respect. He doesn't think I respect him. He's definitely old fashioned in that he didn't think his wife should work (when the kids were young) and always thought Sunday dinner would be hot and on the table at 5. And I do think he looks at those things as respect. He's quite a bit older than me (He's 52) and even though it's not a cultural thing I think it's an old fashioned thing.

 

Tojaz-thanks for the link. I'm going there next. Then I have to get to work! That's the thing about being self employed, no one is watching you and before you know it you've spent a lot of time not working.

 

Thanks again everyone!

[PWSX3]

Something else I would like to share with you.

When you talk to him don't tell him what he has to do, us guys don't like that & he will shut down.

 

I would suggest (and you woman are so much better at talking then us guys) that you let him know you are not happy, that there are things that you need in your life & there are things you will not put up with anymore.

 

You need to word it so when you are finished talking it is up to him if he wants to change to be the person you are wanting in your life.

 

Good suggestion on the time frame as well on if he will start seeking help or if you do separate how long for that. Can't just keep it in limbo & maybe 3 months this happens & then 6 months this happens type stuff.

 

I do understand how you feel, I was married at 21 & married for 28 years. Yes it does take two people to get to the place you are at now. I know when we were young my former W was very shy, didn't speak up much so I had to do it, then when we got older I just did it by habit so by the time she wanted to voice her opinion it was to late & I wouldn't listen because I was so used to doing it.

 

Hope this makes since because I was in your H's shoes at one time, but I do believe people can change but they do need professional help.

[silverfish]

'Silverfish, are you glad that you left? Looking back (aside from the mistakes you say you made) are you happy that you left? How is your son handling it all?'

 

There isn't an easy answer to this question really. I still love him, and his family and I think about him most days.

 

But...since we split, he has never ONCE said he wants me back, and his behaviour has actually got worse, so : more drinking, taking drugs, going out with people he works with, getting into trouble. He even got the number of a woman who lives right opposite me and had coffee with her a few times, hung out at the park a lot with one of my friends (the mother of one of my son's friends). Also, 2 months after I moved out, he ended up kissing a girl I worked with at a party....it's amazing really because apart from one incident 10 yrs ago, he was faithful to me for 15 years.

 

He still says he loves me though! It's confusing...

 

I am glad I left because I now feel safe. I can bring my children up without the drama. We all have everything we need because our lives are not chaotic any more.

 

My sons (11 & 9) reacted very differently at times. One thing I do regret is not telling them more about the situation at the time. I very much covered up for their Dad and his behaviour, still do to a point. The result was they blamed me...

 

Things have happened since the split that has made them understand why I left. I really had no choice but to tell them some of the things he had done, because he was still doing them. To his credit though, he did back me up on this a few months ago and tell them it was true, and since then he has tried to behave around them.

 

My eldest son sounds a bit like yours, and I have found that at times he tries to be the 'Dad' to his little brother. This works sometimes, but he also got quite bolshy with me at times (physically fronting up to me). I found this very hard to take as obviously it reminded me of the way his Dad was.

 

My littlest did a lot of crying - he's very emotional. He's got a lot of friends who have been in the situation too, and they helped a lot, as well as teachers and friends parents.

 

They both missed having a male role model around, because their Dad has now moved away, and only sees them once a week for a night. I tried to get them involved with sports & other things going on. We are very lucky where we live that it's a real community with a lot going on. They have lots of support as do I.

 

I would mention my boyfriend, who I met last summer (6 months after I left), but sadly it's not working out for me right now. At the moment I feel like I am not ready to be with anyone else for a while. I need to put my children first.

 

So...yes i am glad I left, but I sometimes wish I had done things differently!

[ryepatch]

it also seems to me, for what it's worth, like your marriage can be saved.

 

to answer one of your questions, yes, he should see a male counselor, as even if a female counselor knows what it's like to be have been raised as a man, he won't think she does. old-fashioned people often have strict stereotypes about gender roles, and it sounds like your husband is ensconced in his. but people will change things to save their marriage that they would never change just because you ask, complain about it for years.

 

if only all our spouses had the sense to really seek help to address what they view as something that can't change about their spouse. . .

 

would it work to write everything out in a letter for him, if you don't think he'll take it well in person? maybe leave him a letter and then leave the house for a few days, to let him sit and absorb it.

 

or try talking to him in a public place. . . not a cafe where other people will overhear you, but a public park or something where there are other people not too far away. . .

 

again, you are a wonderful person simply for making absolutely sure before youu do something drastic. . . there's probably some point at which almost all marriages can be saved.

[tojaz]

it also seems to me, for what it's worth, like your marriage can be saved.

 

to answer one of your questions, yes, he should see a male counselor, as even if a female counselor knows what it's like to be have been raised as a man, he won't think she does. old-fashioned people often have strict stereotypes about gender roles, and it sounds like your husband is ensconced in his. but people will change things to save their marriage that they would never change just because you ask, complain about it for years.

 

if only all our spouses had the sense to really seek help to address what they view as something that can't change about their spouse. . .

would it work to write everything out in a letter for him, if you don't think he'll take it well in person? maybe leave him a letter and then leave the house for a few days, to let him sit and absorb it.

 

or try talking to him in a public place. . . not a cafe where other people will overhear you, but a public park or something where there are other people not too far away. . .

 

again, you are a wonderful person simply for making absolutely sure before youu do something drastic. . . there's probably some point at which almost all marriages can be saved.

 

Great post Rye!

So many people here believe the same thing. I personally believe that any marriage can be saved as long as both partners are commited to saving it!

My wife all through said that she feared we would fail and that is why the D continued. FEAR!! She never understood that because she feared we'd fail, she made sure it failed. Never tried, walked out of MC after five minutes, because she was afraid someone would change her mind.!!!:mad:

 

Mrs. A, I would suggest sitting down and writing as heartfelt a letter as you can. Revealing all of what you've been feeling, and all the hurt that has come to your family. Similar to your OP. No accusations, just asking for help! Let him read it alone, and then he has to decide which way he wants to go, more anger, or standing for his marriage. His decision will reveal your next move.

TOJAZ

[Mrs. Ambivalent]

I've thought about the letter idea also, because it would give him time to read it over and over if he had to until maybe it sinks in? Also then as long as I write it this way he may not feel so attacked and like I'm criticizing him.

 

I know there's a long weekend in October maybe I'll take the kids somewhere for the weekend as a mini road trip and leave him home to think. Won't seem so much like I'm running away to mama's. And I could leave him the books I purchased for him also. One of them starts out talking about how Anger ruins men's relationships. (I'm sure women's also but this book was written for men).

 

I am still meeting with the therapist who meets with my son one week and meets with me the next. She asked if I wanted to set up an appointment with the two of us and I could talk to him with her there. Even though I think it would go smoother with her there to mediate, I think he would feel some disrespect that I couldn't tell him alone and had to drag someone else into it.

 

I also think that his response to our talk or my letter will reveal a lot about the direction this is going to go in. He's so concerned about money and I'm going to be so upset if his response is more about 'we can't afford to get divorced' than it being about him not wanting to lose me.

 

Yesterday I actually started to get really angry with him because I was thinking about all of the things he enjoys in life w/o having to work at it. I know it's irrational but I was thinking about the life we have together and the house, the kids, and everything we have built together. I feel like I keep it all together and he just walks in and enjoys it. And then instead of being grateful to me for everything I do he's angry with me and won't even listen to me tell a silly story about something that happened at work at the end of the day.

 

I'm sure he is at work thinking he works all day so that the rest of us can enjoy 'nice things' and that I'm not grateful to him. I know that every story has 2 sides and I'm sure I'm contributing to the downfall also. I think I just don't have the energy like I use to to pull it all together.

 

Thanks again

[Mrs. Ambivalent]

Me again

 

No real update. Are you all surprised I'm still Ambivalent and haven't done anything about it? It is my name, of course.

 

I am putting some things in place in case our talk doesn't go well. A place to go, money to have with me, etc. I'm doing that just because of his temper I'm not sure how the conversation will go.

 

Things with us have been very strange. We're only talking to each other if we have to. He bounces back and forth between being super happy and trying to get everyone else in the house to be happy, then being super grumpy and we're all avoiding him. But then on his happy days he can't understand why we're all avoiding him - which is a coping thing for us I think with his moods. And it seems to confuse him when he's trying to engage.

 

I can't live in this limbo land much longer. I have to stop avoiding this conversation with him.

 

I just feel like I'm not ready. I'm not ready to call it quits I guess. But our marriage is so bad right now I can't live like this much longer.

 

The therapist had some good advice and it was very similar to the advice you all have given me. See, I could have saved the money and trusted you all.

 

Mostly she's giving me the words I need. Not confrontational or accusatory. I'm not happy, I don't think you're happy. We don't treat each other with respect, yada, yada, yada. Then give it a time limit. Let's work on our marriage for another few months then if we can't get back to a place where we are mutually respectful and happy we'll agree some decisions need to be made.

 

In a nutshell that's it.

 

I don't think it's necessary to tell him how he treats me badly and how his anger has affected our relationship so much. I think he's going to figure that out on his own.

 

Anyway, if you have any other thoughts I would love to hear them.

 

Ta!

[silverfish]

Are you going to therapy together?

 

If it's just you - doesn't he ask you how it's going or anything?

 

I get the whole mood thing - I had it for years. All I can say is it's such a relief when it's over. My ex is just like his Dad, and he treated me just like his Dad treated his Mum too (my mother in law). One of the reasons I left is that I didn't want to end up like her. She was a wonderful woman who deserved a lot better than she got.

 

My mother in law died last week, and I ended up spending the w/end with my ex, his Dad, the whole family. Although I am still very fond of them in a lot of ways, nothing has changed. I fulfil a role in the 'family' as she did, and any attempt to change that results in anger or the silent treatment.

 

It's not even that my ex is particularly sexist - or his dad, that's just the way they handle things. I didn't want my boys growing up like that.

[Mrs. Ambivalent]

Thanks Silverfish

 

The therapy thing is funny because he knows that I go but doesn't realize I talk to her a lot about myself and us. My younger son saw her for about 2 years to help with his social skills (Autism spectrum) and I would occasionally go by myself to talk to her about him (son). Then H and I would go to see her for a while when she told me she thought we should go as a couple, and my son continued with her also. So he knows I go and I think he just thinks we are talking about how to handle my son, who is a ton better since he started seeing her.

 

I had a close relationship with my MIL who just passed away, I had 2 people tell me at the funeral that she (MIL) would always tell them that she loved me more than she loved her own son. It was said in a joking way but I'm sure my MIL said it because I was the glue that held them together, my H and MIL.

 

Sometimes I wonder if this is why I'm thinking more about this lately, because if I had left him while she was alive it would have devastated her. So a part of me feels free from that guilt.

 

My SIL said to me last February that my H reminds her so much of her father. I feel the same about my MIL, that she deserved more than that treatment. And then to think I'm raising sons, yikes. The cycle must stop. It will stop when we teach our sons better. My H grew up in the 60's and some of it was a given I think.

 

Well thanks again!

 

I'm happy for you, you seem so at peace. I hope to be there someday.

[ryepatch]

i think you're doing great. have you picked a time and place to have the conversation? i don't mean which day, i mean what time of day, like whenever he'll be most receptive.

[Mrs. Ambivalent]

Haven't really picked a date/time. The tough part is he works a crazy schedule. When he works he's hardly home at all and when he's home then he's grumpy cuz he's so tired.

 

So I'll need to wait until he has a day off and we can really sit down and talk. It's going to be really hard.

 

The past couple of days he's been in a really good mood and it's been easy to be around him. When he's like that I can imagine us living happily ever after. With him being in a good mood we could talk about doing things together to bring us closer, etc.

 

When he's in an angry mood he's impossible. He berates me, he's nasty to the kids and he is horrible to be around. During those times I can't live like that for one more minute of one more day. I hate those times. So I'll avoid him and eventually he'll start to be more normal after a few days.

 

Looking back we've been in this cycle for almost our entire marriage. Back in the spring we had a weekend here that was absolute craziness. He was yelling at our youngest (remember he has special needs) and threatened to put him in a home several times. He said to me 'seriously, if there was a place that would take him 24/7 I would do it'. Our son feeds off of that and gets very angry and then gets destructive, which makes my H even more angry. I spent the whole weekend trying to make peace and trying to get my H to stop saying all of the hurtful things to our son and then trying to calm down our son.

 

Things went on like this for 3 days, it was madness. When H went back to work I packed our bags and was planning to leave with the kids. At least so my H could cool off. That's the day I got the call that my MIL had taken a turn and we had to go the 1000 miles to see her. Then once we returned things were calm again and I put everything on hold.

 

In February (3 months before that) things were really bad and he was being hurtful and angry. He knew I was upset and he said to me 'please give me another chance'. Even though I wasn't even thinking of leaving and certainly hadn't threatened it then. So he knows it's hurting us, our marriage, our children.

 

He needs professional help really. I can't fix him.

 

The therapist is going to help me on Monday figure out how to approach it and what I need to say when I talk to him.

 

Then I'm going to wing it. Find a time when he's home and the kids are not.

 

I need to make it clear that this is not one of those 'o.k, I'll be nicer and we'll do some things together and we'll get along better'. This is like 'o.k, I'll get help for my anger issues and I'll do that before the week is over'. I need to see progress. I feel I've been in limbo for too long.

 

Thanks ryepatch. I'll let you all know when we have 'the talk' and how it went. Probably next week. I see the therapist Monday and the attorney Tuesday. The attorney is just because if I leave the house with the kids I want to make sure I'm not hurting myself by doing that. Abandonment or anything like that. I want to talk to the attorney about mediation, because if it comes to that I think it might work for us.

 

TTFN

[ryepatch]

In February (3 months before that) things were really bad and he was being hurtful and angry. He knew I was upset and he said to me 'please give me another chance'. Even though I wasn't even thinking of leaving and certainly hadn't threatened it then. So he knows it's hurting us, our marriage, our children.

 

TTFN

he really does sound like he needs professional help.

 

what did you say after he said this? do you think he really thought you might leave? did he admit out loud that he knew his anger was out of control?