When the ex-other woman insists on maintaining an emotional affair

[bark]

For 3 years I had an affair with M, who was married also.

 

Eight (8) months ago M ended, in her words, our sexual affair because her husband was becoming suspicious and she was feeling guilty.

 

M's husband, while highly functional, has a delusional disorder, which occasionally makes him paranoid at work. Again, this condition is manageable (with meds).

 

After our sexual affair ended, M still calls and e-mails me 3-5 times a day. She tells me that she still loves me and needs me--especially emotionally. She claims to have no emotional intimacy with her husband. (Probably because of our relationship and her husband's delusional disorder.).

 

I have two questions: first, what does M want from me? I feel she's using me as a back-up in case things disintegrate with her husband. Am I being played? Post-break-up, M has done everything in her power, short of sex, to keep me as the primary person in her emotional life. Why?

 

I have tried on innumerable occasions to absolutely terminate contact but she keeps pestering me until I respond. And I inevitably do respond. Why is she doing this? (By the way, I know this is still an "affair" by any other name.)

 

Second, what's the cleanest way to get out of this mess? And everything that is good in me does want to end this emotional entanglement. How?

 

All advice is much appreciated. (By the way, I told my wife about the affair but I have not told her about this weird post-affair relationship). More lies and deceptions, I know.

[midori]

I think your guess that M wants to keep you around as back up is a good one. She may be able to justify using you the way she is because she has "sacrificed" herself in her marriage.

 

If you're really serious about cutting things off with M entirely, here are some things you could do:

1. block her email address, or set up your email program's preferences so it will treat messages from her as junk email (filter it out) or automatically delete it. Then you don't even have to make the decision of whether or not to respond.

 

2. change whatever numbers you can: cellphone, beeper, etc. Tell your wife you lost your cellphone.

 

3. Recognize that if you're going to stay in your marriage you absolutely absolutely MUST stop all contact with M right now. I'm not trying to get moralistic with you. I'm simply highlighting the choice you think you have made but have not fully stepped into. When she does get through to you, say "stop calling, you insane harpy!" and hang up the phone.

 

If you truly acknowledge that you want to stay in your marriage and that M must not contact you any more, you ought to be able to muster the self-determination to make it stop. I don't remember the details that you posted about your affair earlier, but from what you've posted here it sounds like you've been rather passive with M. She's the one who decided to end the physical relationship -- so you went along with that, and then decided to come clean to your wife. You didn't initiate the break-up with M. And now she's again dictating how things are going to be -- yet you say this isn't something you want. Why does she have that power?

 

Did you decide to "come clean" to your wife as a way of getting back at M? "Fine, end our physical affair, I'm going back to my wife, so there!" I hope not, and I'm not saying it sounds like you did, but that does occur to me in light of your passivity where M is concerned.

 

You're being played right now. You might think that you've gotten out from under M's thumb, and that now that you've told your wife everything about the affair with M, M has nothing to threaten you with. But oops, you're giving her fresh ammunition. Every email reply you send to her is something she could forward to your wife. Every cellphone call is logged, and your wife could be alerted to look at your call log.

 

You might think that M is a wonderful person who would never blackmail you into staying with her. From where I'm standing she doesn't seem so great: she's playing martyr to her husband's condition. She's deliberately turning to a married man for support and thus creating the potential for your wife to be hurt. I don't think that's the behavior of a good person.

 

Staying with a chronically ill spouse is admirable; but if it makes you feel entitled to be selfish and unscrupulous you should admit that you're not up to the task. I don't think all people are. Again, I don't know the how's and why's that brought you and M together, but your understanding of her reasons for being in the affair seem to be centered on the problems she has with her husband. You seem to be saying that those outweigh your duty to your wife. You're wrong there. You might feel a lot of sympathy for M's plight (remember as portrayed by her) but how do you justify asking your wife to pay the price because M is in an unsatisfying marriage that she feels she can't leave?

 

You have a choice: stay in your marriage, or leave. If you stay it's up to you to protect the integrity of your marriage from M's intrusions. If you can't do that you must admit that you'll always be open and vulnerable to M, and therefore you cannot promise your wife that you will remain committed to her. And you should leave.

 

M needs to find other people to turn to. She won't as long as she knows that she can get through to you. Is that what you want?

[bark]

midori, beautifully expressed and insightful as always.

 

You sized up the festering situation very well. M does play on my sympathy for her plight and I have been the passive one in this relationship. M came after me at work. She started the courtship that led to the affair. (That's not an excuse).

 

I don't know if my marriage will survive but I must break free from M.

 

I deeply appreciate your wise counsel.

 

Thank-you.

[meanon]

I agree with Midori's assessment of the situation. Reflecting on the nature of the relationship with M may help you take the necessary steps to put it behind you. You say you want to do this because you want to do what is good, you should also want to do it because it is in your own best interests.

 

This is a big generalisation but in my experience affairs tend to fall into 3 broad categories:

 

Firstly there are people who just fall in love with each other, for the reasons that people usually do. Of course they should have ended previous relationships first but despite this these relationships stand as good a chance as those not initiated through an affair.

 

Secondly there affairs resulting from dissatisfaction with lifestyle (e.g. lack of excitement, variety, close personal friendships, spontaneity or insecurity). In these cases people tend to blame the primary relationship rather than seeking the real causes of the problem. When the affair turns into the primary relationship, despite feeling love for new partners, the gains are often offset by losses (e.g. lack of security, comfort, shared past, intimacy, shared parenthood). In short they realise they love both people and research shows that whilst second marriages are sustained, these people remain ambivalent about whether they made the right choice.

 

Finally there are affairs (almost always initiated by one party) in which the motivation for an affair is to fill a gap in the primary relationship. The relationship is entirely on the terms of the person who initiated it as fulfilling their needs is it's sole purpose. The third party is a casualty of a flawed marriage of which they are a victim. They have no control of the relationship in any real sense. They are being used. This is not to say that there are not some situations in which they get something out of the relationship but it is a byproduct.

 

I hope I don't upset you by saying this (I could be wrong) but everything you have said about your relationship with M indicates that the reason she is being persistent is that she is not really interested in what you want. What she calls love is dependence on you to fill the void created by the marriage. If she loved you she would consider your interests too. The fact that she finished the relationship as soon as she thought her husband may have suspected shows she will sacrifice whatever compromises her marriage. Who knows what has led her to be so selfish but please do not allow her to continue to exploit you.

[bark]

Finally there are affairs (almost always initiated by one party) in which the motivation for an affair is to fill a gap in the primary relationship. The relationship is entirely on the terms of the person who initiated it as fulfilling their needs is it's sole purpose. The third party is a casualty of a flawed marriage of which they are a victim. They have no control of the relationship in any real sense. They are being used. This is not to say that there are not some situations in which they get something out of the relationship but it is a byproduct.

 

I hope I don't upset you by saying this (I could be wrong) but everything you have said about your relationship with M indicates that the reason she is being persistent is that she is not really interested in what you want. What she calls love is dependence on you to fill the void created by the marriage. If she loved you she would consider your interests too. The fact that she finished the relationship as soon as she thought her husband may have suspected shows she will sacrifice whatever compromises her marriage. Who knows what has led her to be so selfish but please do not allow her to continue to exploit you.

 

 

Yes, in retrospect I understand that I filled an emotional (and to some extent sexual) hole in M's marriage. Your assessment is so apt it's scary. She even describes herself as a limpet.

 

Her excuse has always been her husband's delusional disorder, and her need to be with someone with whom she could be sexually and emotionally compatable. Our affair started just 4 months after the birth of her second child. I had the best of both worlds: exciting sex with M and rescue delusions. Some white knight I turned out to be.

 

When M pursued me I was content in my marriage. Some people insist that anyone who cheats must be unhappily married. I think that's bull--especially as to men.

 

Even now, M still pursues me for lunch or shopping meetings and flirts with me . On Sunday morning, however, I left her a message on her cell phone demanding that there be no further contacts between us. There have been no calls, today.

 

The absolutely crushing blow, here, is that M's use of me through our affair may have mortally wounded my marriage. I have told my wife about my affair, however, and she very much wants us to remain married. The future is uncertain.

 

I want to thank-you, meanon, and midori , for giving me the strength and insight to free myself from this debilitating echo of a relationship. I don't know whether my marriage will survive but I swear that I will never have another affair. The consequences are just catastophic for all concerned.

 

Yes, I was "played." But my wife was "betrayed," by me.

[Arabess]

Affairs are like big black holes in space. They suck you in. You can never quite figure out how you got in so deep. Worse yet, it's damn hard finding your way out. There is never a good closure. Affairs create such a distorted intimacy.

 

I wonder what it is about them which totally wipes out your normal decision making logic?

 

Is it possible, Bark, that in her mind she truly loves you, needs you and doesn't KNOW how to get untangled? Maybe the gap in her life was filled by you for so long until she is afraid to face the emptiness again.

 

You are under no obligation to respond to her needs......or are you?

[bark]

Maybe the gap in her life was filled by you for so long until she is afraid to face the emptiness again.

 

Arabess, you're right. I am (or was) M's emotional rock. Her husband, while great with the kids, tends to obsess about work and his 'enemies" there. It's pretty grueling (at least according to M). I have little reason to doubt her.

 

Affairs do wipe-out moral decision making and normal emotional logic. Affairs are, in my opinion, the crack cocaine of romance. This not an excuse, it's a description. When in the grip of an affair, you live, breathe, and exist for your lover. I believe the brain also undergoes biochemical changes.

 

Nothing matters but the overwhelming desire for your lover. It's insane.

[sweapea]

Arabess has a point. Just becasue Bark has decided to 'come clean' to his wife , now the OW is the bad guy. You kept contact with her for 8 mos. You mean to tell me that she never thought about ending it, that it was too much, and you never once intiated that contact again?

 

You were both married and I never heard you say that either of you discussed long term plans or that you would leave your marriages. so how was she supposed to know you think she is selfish. Was there any guarantee to leave the husband (with some problems btw) and be with you?

 

maybe she knew you would never leave and I KNOW it's the emotional void that she would have if she gave up your friendship. Just remember you got something out of it too. so don't blame it all on her.

 

I think it's fine that you are staying married, your wife must be very understanding and loving, so good luck with that. Only my best to you.

[midori]

but I wasn't sure I was reading you right. Now I think I am, though of course I could always be wrong. But think about this for a minute. On the one hand you say:

 

Originally posted by bark

I have told my wife about my affair, however, and she very much wants us to remain married.

 

But on the other you say:

The absolutely crushing blow, here, is that M's use of me through our affair may have mortally wounded my marriage. ...The future is uncertain.

 

You said much the same in your earlier post. It piqued my curiosity -- why are you so afraid that the affair has dealt your marriage a death-blow, when your wife has made it clear that she wants to save the marriage?

 

Then you said this:

 

But my wife was "betrayed," by me.

 

Your wife absolutely was betrayed, no need for quotation marks, you're not using the word euphemistically. You betrayed your wife. You betrayed your marriage. Yup, you.

 

You are human. Yup, you. Humans make mistakes -- sometimes enormous, awful mistakes that generate a lot of pain. Such mistakes can be overcome, with some luck and with lots of perseverance on both sides. Your wife seems to be willing to try. Now, maybe that's true in theory but not in reality. Maybe she's so outraged and angry that her version of "saving the marriage" will involve you existing in perpetual purgatory, always indebted to her, never again to be on an equal footing in the marriage. Obviously that's not going to work.

 

Or maybe your wife is just confused and disoriented and in pain; she knows or at least thinks that she wants the marriage to be saved, but she doesn't know how to go about making things better, so that she can feel comfortable in the relationship again. Maybe she's expecting you to figure out how to "unbreak her heart" (Toni Braxton song, I believe), and maybe you're feeling at a loss about what to do.

 

OR... maybe you would like to save the marriage in theory, but the daunting task of making things right and building trust again between you and your wife seems too overwhelming to you. So you focus on just how awful your betrayal of your wife was, turning your betrayal and subsequent guilt into lumpen objects that cannot be moved or erased or used constructively. Wallowing in guilt might seem like a responsible thing to do -- after all you're tormenting yourself! -- but if that's all you do then you can avoid getting down to the much more difficult task of unbreaking your wife's heart. Maybe some part of you is afraid that you'll fail, so you defeat yourself before you even get started.

 

You veered off the path and took a tumble down a rocky hillside. Your choices are to a) scramble your way back up the hillside, get on the path and catch up to your wife (who, it seems, is at the moment waiting for you), or b) abandon the old path that your wife is on because it'll be too hard to get back to it; i.e. find a new path, or c) sit in the rocky ravine and beat yourself up because you stupidly took a tumble off the path.

 

If you choose A and you get back onto the path but find that your wife is no longer waiting and has in fact abandoned the path herself, at least you'll know that you did your utmost to regain it. You'll find another path for yourself and move on, knowing you made a mistake but you recovered from it and are steadily moving forward, wiser if also sadder for the detour. If you're going to choose B then get on with it and stop making your wife think that you want to rejoin her. Admit that you haven't got the wherewithal to stay and live with the guilt until the relationship heals. C is not a good choice.

 

What do you want?

[Arabess]

INSANE.....indeed!!!!

 

You are right. It's exactly like a drug habit. First you indulge to make you feel high. Then you have to continue.....just to feel normal.

[bark]

No, there were never any long range plans. And M is not the bad guy. I'm just trying to get support so that I can end all contact with her forever. I no longer want to remain emotionally involved with her.

 

I want this all to end. By the way, I've been weak, too. I've called M a number of times during this 8 month period. But the overwhelming majority of contacts were initiated by M .

 

If I can convince myself that I'm being "played" and it helps me end this emotional affair, I'll do it.

[lostforwords]

You are human. Yup, you. Humans make mistakes -- sometimes enormous, awful mistakes that generate a lot of pain. Such mistakes can be overcome, with some luck and with lots of perseverance on both sides

 

Thank you midori for only stating AGAIN what some people on LS have been trying to say whether it was to defend themselves or other posters..... many times; and yes we've heard or seen this countless times, i have seen people raked through the coals, berated, judged, patronized etc.... because the "stone tossers" (thats what i like to call them) cant see beyond there "model life." And yes thats how I have been made to feel.... like they have model marriages where "Oh if you only had better judgement, oh if you only werent selfish, oh if you only hadnt betrayed and destroyed your family!" Im hoping your words do not fall upon deaf ears sort of speak...... and yes it is possible to perservere on both sides.... however some people on here feel that adulterers are monsters..... not human at all..... and guess what.... we are human.... im quite tickeld pink midori to see this being posted by someone, thank you!!

[meanon]

Bark,

 

I did not mean to demonise M - you know from previous threat that I think what people do when they feel their physical or psychological survival is at stake should not be judged by others who do not live in their shoes (this is not to condone their actions). I just think that the bottom line is she is solely interested in her own needs and you would do well to recognise this. Maybe she does think she loves you - I think her behaviour says otherwise. You (by comparison) define the relationship entirely within the context of her needs.

 

I get the impression from your posts that the reference to the possible mortal wounding of your marriage refers to the fact that you no longer love your wife. I wouldn't be too concerned about this. Most people can not handle the concept of loving two people at once which is one of the reasons why they are able to behave so badly to old partners when they fall in love with someone new. When you see the relationship with M for what it is and the contact ceases, your feelings will begin to fade and this will allow feelings for your wife to return. I completely agree that there does not have to be a problem in a relationship for people to stray. But we have choices. You have described the initial stages of love very well. In the later stages of love a simple relationship has grown to encapsulate something so broad (lifestyle, family etc.) that it can be hard to find the essence of it. In the face of competition from a new love it is sometimes easy to think it is not there. But you are the same people and if your wife can forgive you there is no reason you can not rediscover the connection. If that is what you want you now need to make the active choice to love your wife. Discover and nurture reasons for this love and express them to her. To be clear - I am not suggesting you invent things but am emphasising the role that choice and thought play in influencing our emotions. Create the right conditions and the rest will follow. I hope you keep us posted.

[bark]

Midori and meanon, you both astutely observed that I'm at a crossroads : reconnect emotionally with my wife or, admit defeat, and end the marriage. My wife is more than willing to make this work once again. I'm the ambivalent one. I do know this: I will never love my wife again so long as M remains an emotional part of my life. Hence, this "liberation" thread.

 

I'll do this in stages, and I won't do anything rash. Entirely too much is at stake.

 

(meanon, you did not demonize M. M is doing what she feels emotionally compelled to do. No more, no less.)

 

I'll keep both you sages posted. ( By the way, I believe you both put many a trained therapist to shame).

[meanon]

Thanks Bark. Liberation thread - I like that. Refer to it when you are under seige.

 

I will never love my wife again so long as M remains an emotional part of my life.

 

You may not love anyone until you break from M and as she does not love you you will remain exiled from love until you move on.

[midori]

Originally posted by bark

I'm the ambivalent one. I do know this: I will never love my wife again so long as M remains an emotional part of my life.

 

Another thing to bear in mind: your relationship with M was always restricted. The niggling little concerns of a shared life did not touch you -- your love was, in effect, untouched by the burdens of reality. It's much much much easier to love someone under those circumstances than it is to continue to love them despite piles of household paperwork, mortgage concerns, car repairs, headcolds, and weird bathroom habits. It's much easier to feel passionate about someone you don't see all the time; especially if your meetings are clandestine and "taboo." Yes, of course the two of you probably had to go through some contortions to arrange your meetings, and to keep your affair a secret. But those were inconveniences directly in the service of the romance. It was all about the romance. Dental appointments and broken dishwashers never distracted you, took your attention and energy away from each other. Those things take your attention and energy away from your spouse, not your lover.

 

If M was your wife instead of your lover, would you be her "knight in shining armor?" Probably not. Would the sex be as passionate? Probably not all the time. If your wife were your lover, would you be so blase and indifferent about her? Probably not. Bear in mind that your absorbtion in M is not entirely about M herself -- it's about romance divorced from the demands of reality. Ridiculous to expect your wife -- who shares in your real, daily life -- to compete against something that exists entirely apart from reality.

 

I hate to say it but I think you're running out of time. This has become grossly unfair to your wife. Obviously you need to eliminate M from your mental and emotional world. That should have happened a while ago. You shouldn't have told your wife unless you were leaving her, or ready to fully wean yourself from M. How long has your wife had to deal with the knowledge of the affair, and a husband who isn't sure that he wants her?

 

I think you should set yourself a deadline: one or two months at most. If in that time you have not fully expelled M from your heart and mind, and if you have not begun to see how lovely, how wonderful, how strong and amazing your wife is, then I'm afraid you do not deserve to have your wife. You will have to admit to her that you don't love her anymore. She will be terribly hurt by that, but less than she would be if you continued to indulge your preference for unrealistic romance over the obligations and rewards of true, committed love. You don't have the right to keep her in a holding pattern indefinitely.

 

I think you need to get tough with yourself. Make some deadlines. Do whatever it takes to see that M is not good for you, and probably wouldn't be good for you even if the two of you were free. Think about the bad character traits her involvement with you, and continued attempts to keep you in her orbit, reveal. She is selfish, prone to self-aggrandizing in a way that allows her to believe that deception and hurting others is all right if it suits her purposes. And that's just for starters. And just as important as getting a grip on M and what she really is, you must start appreciating how unrealistic that relationship was -- and why you are drawn to relationships not weighted down by your own reality.

[bark]

I think you should set yourself a deadline: one or two months at most. If in that time you have not fully expelled M from your heart and mind, and if you have not begun to see how lovely, how wonderful, how strong and amazing your wife is, then I'm afraid you do not deserve to have your wife. You will have to admit to her that you don't love her anymore. She will be terribly hurt by that, but less than she would be if you continued to indulge your preference for unrealistic romance over the obligations and rewards of true, committed love. You don't have the right to keep her in a holding pattern indefinitely.

 

No, I don't.

[midori]

and because your wife still loves you and hopes to mend the relationship, she'll stay in limbo waiting for you as long as there's a chance that you will come back to her.

 

Make your first act of love to your wife be putting her needs before your own. And certainly before M's. Your wife needs and deserves to have you fully focused on deciding whether or not you can stay in the marriage. So get there, get to the point where you're looking at your wife, and looking at your marriage, in order to decide what you want. Look at your wife and your marriage for what they are -- they are both far more complex than M, as far as you're concerned. Maybe your first act of love to your wife will be your last: maybe you'll decide that you simply don't love her anymore, and you really don't want to stay married. If that's what happens, so be it. But do so decisively, responsibly. You owe her that much. You owe yourself that much.

 

Bark, I hope you know that I'm not judging you. You're in a sticky situation and it's up to you to get out of it. While I do think you need to wake up and get real -- with yourself, and with M -- I can appreciate that this is not as black and white as it seems. Nor as easy.

 

Take care.

[bark]

While I do think you need to wake up

 

That's exactly what this feels like: waking up after a long, long slumber.

[lostforwords]

Dude... your messages are FULL!!

[sweapea]

Bark, you said that you called M on sunday and left her a cell phone message not to call you ever again. and I remember you saying that you haven't heard from her. She sounds like an intelligent woman. Give her a chance maybe she'll show you just how much she cares and how much she respects your decision to give you space and let you go. After all, there were no promises. she knows that.

 

If she cares about you - she won't call.

[midori]

Originally posted by sweapea

She sounds like an intelligent woman.

 

You really think so? Can't say I agree.

 

Give her a chance maybe she'll show you just how much she cares and how much she respects your decision to give you space and let you go. After all, there were no promises. she knows that.

 

Why give her a chance? Why should he wait to see what she's going to do -- surely it would be better for him to take whatever steps he can to prevent any contact from her (like blocking emails, not taking phone calls, deleting messages, etc)? His goal in this is not to come out of it thinking well of M. His goal is to not think of her at all.

 

If she cares about you - she won't call.

 

Now that I definitely agree with. Let's hope she won't! Gotta say though, my guess is that in another week or two she'll have some very good reason for getting in touch... she's not going to let go that easily. But if she does back off for good -- great!

[sweapea]

quote:Originally posted by sweapea

She sounds like an intelligent woman.

 

 

 

You really think so? Can't say I agree.

I am talking about the orginal posts bark spoke of, remember? He did describe her as wonderful and intelligent....and so on. it's just so hard for me to see this faceless woman become a villian and no one even knows her. Just like we never get the married woman's side and it's always the guys side. Well here we go again. I am not ganging up on bark, just trying to understand how she is so terrible in all of this.

 

I don't know her and hope she doesn't call him. but in my experience (and believe me I have gone through the breakup phase a number of times) and it is ALWAYS the person who does the breaking up to intiate contact again. So if Bark can stop talking about how to get rid of her and how he going to fix his marriage that would be a good first step. I agree - block emails, get a new cell phone and don't accept calls. If she doesn't get the point after that, then she's delusional not her husband.

[Arabess]

I certainly agree with the thought of a clean break being the only way to go. However, women who have been in long term affairs often hang on due to the fact that any 'semi-continuous' contact helps to validate the fact she was not thrown away out of his life like a used condom. She will have the need to know that the relationship shared, rightfully or wrongfully, meant something at the time it was going on. She wasn't JUST a sex object.....but a friend and a lover. Society will not give her any respect.....she needs that from the man she shared the relationship with.

 

I think once that's been said though.....it's time to move on. Hanging on only brings about a silent promise of a 'rekindling'.

[sweapea]

I agree Arabess that women need validation. I storngly believe that in the affairs that had a deep love (whether or not it ever is real) discuss the possibilities of breaking it off and knowing that it is best for that person if they decide they can not do it anymore.

 

I believe these types of people have a better chance of letting go b/c they respect each other and love each other so much. I would have to let bark go if he was my mm. b/c seeing him struggle and in pain over the fact that I was around would be too much for me.

 

but that's me. my capacity to love someone is scary. I would rather have the pain of letting go and knowing I had shared something wonderful with someone and I would never forget even at my last breath. I would not want them cringing at the sound of my name.

 

He needs to mourn this loss. not her but the emotions that brought him so much satifaction for so long. Not saying he'll never feel those emotions again, just not the same way.