anyone else get payback fromthe other woman and did you enjoy it

[lostforwords]

I actually appreciate your feedback or opinion regarding my posts.... and to be honest and quite frank with you.... why would i attack you? you did not once in your statment berate me... you gave your opinion of my approaches..... not once did you make me feel like i was less than you or not worthy to have an opinion or basicly come right out and try to make me feel stupid nor did you patronize me........ the person i was refering to has... on many occassions. when i do get defensive (call it coping mechanism i call it natural recourse) i admit it can be a heated come back..... however.... i too have seen many people start off thier threads with asking that person to not say thier an idiot... or ask her not to post as she belittles them...... or has been downright forthright and has requested for that person to leave them alone but it doesnt prevent her from doing so. so yes i guess sometimes i may come across like that..... but i can at least admit it and not live in a world of denial even if its been pointed out to me on MORE than one occassion or better yet have the proof brought forth and still act like i did not do any wrong.... i wont apologize unless i have done wrong..... and which in this case i stand firm..... amerikajin has only put it in words perhaps so the otehr person can understand... because it seems someone else may have..... but unfortunately she refuses to jump off her stool to ground level and either take responsibility or at least understand.... and no doubt it will still continue.

[jenny]

we have quite a history of this sort of thing at LS. i have been equally as guilty when it comes to this problem, but recently we seemed to have come to a couple of useful conclusions. here are the resolutions that i am following in order to keep things focused on the problems rather than other posters:

 

Premise A: writing is, to some degree, an intimate act for most people. my students feel this all the time - if i attack their ideas or grammar, they feel upset and slighted. i find this touching - the written word still has profound affective meaning even in an increasingly visual world.

 

Premise B: people can learn to take criticism impersonally when the guidelines are effectively established. by the end of the semester, none of my writing students thinks i am critiquing them and they eventually enjoy my amusing tirades against cliches and default-ideological thinking.

 

Premise C: this is a forum that is intended to court and balance many points of view. it is absolutely essential that one point of view or one ideology does not dominate a all discussions. nobody wins if we decide to agree about everything; it's just important we debate in a civilized and productive way.

 

Premise D: these guidelines are useful in any situation where a great deal of thought and emotion is concentrated on the written word; at least, they have been for me.

 

as a personal note: i owe a lot to bark, Ryan, Clancy, BlockHead, beth, midori and Cindy for teaching me how to interact more reasonably and politely in this arena. i make mistakes but i learn from them - so let me say publicly that i owe Jamie an apology. i am sorry, and accountable.

 

here are the guidelines i now use, for myself; and they work so far.

 

1. always attack the idea, or the action, not the person. i think it's ok to judge, as long as i'm aware my judgement is informed by my social and cultural context. i think plagiarizing is actually evil, for example, but i know i do so because of my social and cultural background. i think homophobia is inexcusable, and i will attack the ideas behind it, but i also know this is my 'issue' because of my friends, education, and community.

 

2. never use prejudicial language . never use words to suggest that anyone not thinking a certain way is a bad, unreasonable, immoral, or stupid person.

 

3. ignore anyone who does use prejudicial language. why irritate oneself? if one can be certain you have nothing else to learn from someone, just don't listen anymore. this is the advantage of the written forum.

 

4. recognize the value of those who annoy. i don't understand the moralizers, for example, but i know they are immensely helpful, especially to the newbies. the work they do is important, and i am grateful in an abstract way about it.

 

5. be free with appreciation - i will always love funny and creative posters - i can't help it, and i want them to know. and continue posting. i don't necessarily give the ideas more credence, but they give me sheer pleasure to read.

 

6. encourage dissent. i love rebels too; i think they are the muscle of discussion - so kudos to those who challenge the majority-voice no matter what flack they get. anyone, in particular, who takes on assumptions about what is fundamentally 'right' or 'wrong,' im my opinion, has GIANT cahones. mine are neither as big nor as vigourous, so i appreciate them.

 

i'm a fan of #3 because i am a coward. a tired coward. arguing is better for everybody, but it requires the kind of patience and strength i never have at the end of my day. there is nothing healthier for discussion and scholarship than amerikajin's's retort. there is obviously no way to change people who are seemingly incapable of believing themselves wrong about anything, but who cares about them? more succinctly:

 

it is **essential** for new posters to know this is not a monologic lecture. different points of view, even wildly different ones, can be equally valid.

 

welcome to the forum, Iamnot nothing and lostforwords - it's great to have new voices. i hope our bickering does not scare you off :S - most of the time we are quite a fun and helpful bunch.

 

the rule i break the most is 7. staying on topic, as i have already done in this post. still working on that one...

 

cheers, j

[moimeme]

My, isn't this interesting?

 

'LOVE' Shack turns into 'Turn on Moimeme Shack'

 

Seems it's unpopular to have ethics. Seems it's unpopular to suggest that perhaps vindictiveness and vengefulness are unattractive. I'm sorry that it disturbs you that I believe what I believe.

 

All I said was this:

 

>>>Me, too. I cannot imagine anybody actually enjoying somebody else's suffering. That is literally frightening. And disturbing. It is pure cruelty and cruelty is NEVER justifiable.<<<

 

To get this in return:

 

why you seem to put yourself on a pedestal

 

Now. Would you, Amerikajin, or in fact anyone who thinks I'm some sort of self-proclaimed saint please explain to me what is so bloody high handed about this one statement that you all work yourself into lathers about it?

 

How can this not be the most motherhood-and-apple-pie statement a person can make? I think it is bad and immoral to enjoy someone else's suffering. What the hell is wrong with you people? Next I'll say I think kittens are cute and you'll jump all over me.

 

This woman wants to cause a lot of pain to other people. I don't believe in doing that, period. I did it once deliberately, hated myself for it, and resolved to never do it again. No matter HOW ****ty someone has been to me. How does that make me so horrid that you attack me?

 

I have ideals. I try to live by them. This, apparently, is the vilest of things a person like me can do. Worse, they are ideals which involve being decent to other people. I'm not going to apologize for that and I fail to understand why it should anger anybody. Yes, I do think it's better to be kind than cruel - else I wouldn't work on myself to be a kinder person. But certain things are unacceptable to me and deliberate cruelty to another person is one of those things. I'm not going to kiss up to someone who has done it.

[amerikajin]

Moimeme, maybe in the fog of all your preaching you forgot quotes like this one to Sandy:

>>>"You are one seriously troubled person"<<<

 

That's the first one that compelled me to respond, and there were a few others too. Honestly speaking, I don't hold any grudge against you personally, but I thought these kinds of comments were unwarranted, particularly given the situation. Yes, she was venting frustration and contempt for the two people who have ruined her life and the lives of her children...are you saying you wouldn't?!?!

 

There's no need for the rest of you to do in depth psychoanalysis on me either. I'm not angry. I'm not bitter. There's no chord that was struck here. Moimeme's entitled to her opinions, and I am not interested in getting into a flame war with her over this. Many times I quite like what she has to say, and she's an articulate, thoughtful writer. I just happened to think that, on this particular occasion, some of her comments were a bit condescending and not helpful.

 

Back to the subject at hand, I reiterate that it isn't Sandy who would be hurting the homewrecker's family. It's her choice whether to do the deed or not, but heck, if she does, she's not the one causing the problems. She's already got problems. The way I see it, she's just making sure that everyone around this broad knows just what kind of character she really has (which isn't much at all, if you ask me). And further, I opine that this is part of her problem here: the people who matter most in her life think she's like everyone else. There's no social force that's forcing her to change her behavior. Sometimes, shame and humiliation work. Maybe it's painful for her family, but again I ask: did Sandy put them in this position, or did her "friend"? Which one came first, the chicken or the egg?

 

What may have gotten lost in all of the flap though is that I do basically agree with moimeme's advice (except for the moral premeses behind it). Whether it's your right to let the cat out of the bag is not the question here. The real question is whether or not it's a good idea, and I don't think that it is. Sandy, I think the productive, responsible thing to do here is simply to tell your husband to pack his bags and tell him you'll talk through your lawyers. Sad it has to come to this, but that's just the way it is I guess. Cut your losses, minimize the damage, and think of how you're going to make life better for you and your kids.

[amerikajin]

>>>What the hell is wrong with you people? <<<

 

This isn't the first time you've written things to this effect. Do you wonder why people respond to you the way that they do?

 

Again, I don't mean anything personal moimeme. In general, much of what you have to say is worth reading. At times, however, you go off the deep end.

 

But in the interests of seeing this not get too far out of hand, I'll be adult enough to say "I'm sorry". I apologize to the readers of this thread, to the members of loveshack, to the moderators who have to babysit while we hash this out, to Sandy for hijacking her thread, and yes, I apologize to you, too, moimeme. I could have done a better job at addressing what I wanted to say without being so blunt about it.

[moimeme]

are you saying you wouldn't?!?!

 

Yep. That's what I'm saying. Told ya. I did something like that once. HATED the result. Not gonna do it again. Ever. Really, the biggest SOBs are people who are already badly wounded themselves. It doesn't do much to hurt them another time - they are messes already.

 

As for this quote:

You are one seriously troubled person

 

This is not the first person I have said that to. I have suggested that many people get counselling when they tell us they exhibit dysfunctional behaviour and, like it or not, vindictiveness, spite, hostility, and cruelty are not really within what is normally acceptable behaviour. Enigma pointed out all the other instances where this person has expressed scorn and contempt for her husband and others. Yes, one can be angry and one can feel like doing awful things to another person, but then reason and conscience intrude and point out that this can be counterproductive and unhealthy. The amount of hatred that oozes out of these posts is beyond reasonable, IMHO.

 

In short, there is a difference between a little justifiable anger and over-the-top reaction. I think Sandy has some issues which need to be dealt with with a professional. This is not berating her. This is saying she's in trouble and needs help.

 

P.S. You posted your last one while I was writing this one.

Thanks. I was surprised that you reacted so strongly - it was quite unexpected given your other posts.

I have no argument with you (or with anyone, for that matter). Since this thread has already been hijacked, I might as well add that I'm rooting for you and your new lady friend.

Peace!

[amerikajin]

Ahhhh! Breathe deeply everyone! Seriously, thanks for the vote of support moimeme. Hopefully, we're all back on track here.

 

I respect the fact that you would turn your cheek and that you're committed to your faith. Because my faith is a little different, I guess we disagree when it comes to the morality of vengeance. Sometimes I think of it as an expected consequence of behavior. Negative conditioning, shall we say.

 

I think we've almost reached a consensus here that taking revenge isn't the best option here. The debate itself seems to be over the ethics of it, if she were to do it. Would it be necessarily "wrong" or "immoral" to disclose her bad behavior to her family? I don't think it necessarily is "wrong". It's as natural as wanting to kick someone's ass if he grabs your wife's butt at a bar. You can get sued an spend a night in jail, so maybe it's not the wisest thing to do...but I don't think it's necessarily "wrong." Dude had it comin.

 

My argument is that this revenge just wouldn not be very helpful, and if anything, I think it may only intensify her own rage and misery (which is the last thing she needs). She may even find out that their reaction to it isn't what she expected - maybe the husband doesn't go batty and maybe they even grow stronger because of it. Maybe her family privately castigates her behavior but rallies around her in support so that they can work things out in the long run. Maybe their predicted downfall and ruin never materializes. And what of her husband, does she keep him all this time? Does she keep him just so she can punish him? Maybe he goes out and gets yet another fling. Ultimately, I very much agree with the advice here: don't waste your time, Sandy. Move on. That would be thinking more like a Mensa.

[Girlinterrupted]

All the while SANDY is still getting played by her husband.

 

Now I wonder why has this man done this to her time after time?

 

SANDY maybe you should concentrate on that rather than revenge, specially since your revenge was directed at the other woman and you still live with the problem.

[lostforwords]

I want to apologize as well for my post last night..... i need to grow thick skinned...... it appears as though a thick skin is needed for survival with some people... i let them get to me... as per usual.... better yet i got caught in the moment.... at any rate..... good morning LS'ers..... and on a lighter note...noochies; my cat, just tipped over the damn christmas tree again in the midst of me writing this... will be back.... argh

[BadMan]

Originally posted by moimeme

are you saying you wouldn't?!?!

 

Yep. That's what I'm saying. Told ya. I did something like that once. HATED the result. Not gonna do it again. Ever. Really, the biggest SOBs are people who are already badly wounded themselves. It doesn't do much to hurt them another time - they are messes already.

 

As for this quote:

You are one seriously troubled person

 

This is not the first person I have said that to. I have suggested that many people get counselling when they tell us they exhibit dysfunctional behaviour and, like it or not, vindictiveness, spite, hostility, and cruelty are not really within what is normally acceptable behaviour. Enigma pointed out all the other instances where this person has expressed scorn and contempt for her husband and others. Yes, one can be angry and one can feel like doing awful things to another person, but then reason and conscience intrude and point out that this can be counterproductive and unhealthy. The amount of hatred that oozes out of these posts is beyond reasonable, IMHO.

 

In short, there is a difference between a little justifiable anger and over-the-top reaction. I think Sandy has some issues which need to be dealt with with a professional. This is not berating her. This is saying she's in trouble and needs help.

 

P.S. You posted your last one while I was writing this one.

Thanks. I was surprised that you reacted so strongly - it was quite unexpected given your other posts.

I have no argument with you (or with anyone, for that matter). Since this thread has already been hijacked, I might as well add that I'm rooting for you and your new lady friend.

Peace!

 

I know this is totally uncalled for. BUT, I think this poster moimeme should keep her yap shut. I don't know why but her posts are

the most ridiculous post out of any forum I've ever been on.

[moimeme]

Yes, but BadMan, you have always thought that Kisses and hugs back at ya

[Girlinterrupted]

It's sad to see how every one has completely gone off subject and out their way to bash on moimeme and why because she is rational.

 

Personally I think moimeme's post are great and full of the type of advice that will actually help you now and in the long run unlike some others who are just egging this woman on to doing things that they probably would never do themselves if in that position.

[lostforwords]

in the long run unlike some others who are just egging this woman on to doing things that they probably would never do themselves if in that position.

 

so true in some cases... however... being in this position before i think its only fair that i give her validation that yes she is hurting and yes its ok to do as such... no one should be judging her or ridiculing her shes going through enough in her home life..... why are we here except to give advice look, give validation that someone is hurting and possibly support... (not seeing someone go through enjoying as much hurt as she did with her hubby) however its an opinion i think all sides have helped.... lets look beyond of pegging someone as egging them on..... some people actually feel therapeutic to be able to share thier pain in hopes it helps others.... iam beyond this now.... i only hope sandy can get through her anguish.

[Arabess]

What if Sandy just took all his SH*T and threw it in the other woman's front yard. Now THERE'S a statement!

[moimeme]

Thanks, GirlI

 

LFW, 'support' does not mean 'unconditionally accept someone's actions, no matter how harmful they may be'. 'Support' also means telling someone the unvarnished truth, no matter how much he or she may dislike it. That goes double when the unvarnished truth is that one's behaviour indicates there may be some issues that person needs to deal with.

 

Nobody is denying Sandy her pain. However, that you are in pain does NOT give you license to inflict pain on anybody else. And that is where you and I differ. You seem to think that being hurt gives one license to abuse someone else in return - God only knows where you'd draw the line!!!

 

I absolutely do not agree with that position. Others think as I do, by the way; their posts are also on this thread. That I do not join the chorus of 'you go girl's is no reason to vilify me. I stand by my position that hurting others is not acceptable for any reason. I am, frankly, astonished that anyone would disagree, much less disagree with the venom and vigour which some people have. However, it just supports my theory that people have less and less regard for values like nobility and self-sacrifice. It is ignoble to wreak that sort of revenge. That is my position and I'm sticking to it. And fie on those who think badly of me because of it!

[moimeme]

What if Sandy just took all his SH*T and threw it in the other woman's front yard. Now THERE'S a statement!

 

Well, sure. Personally, I'm a fan of cutting all the crotches out of the guy's pants; something I've heard of before. Those sorts of things help to dispel anger and may cause some fiscal or other inconvenience, but nobody is actually harmed, physically or otherwise.

[lostforwords]

and taken with a grain of salt I did!!! very good point moimeme!!!!!! hopefully sandys hubby takes the hint tho and gets out while he still has balls intact!!!!!!!

[Girlinterrupted]

I totally agree with the "dumping all his s*** on her lawn" idea, it'd be a great way to get back at everyone involved. Just think of how the other woman will feel as she is explaining to her husband why her lawn if full of another mans clothes.

 

As for SANDY's husband, he would be as$ed out!

 

Now we're talking.

 

It's too bad SANDY chose to continue washing and folding his clothes instead!

[Kick her @ss]

I don't see why she should get off the hook so easily. I admit that it's also your husband's fault...he CHOSE to cheat on his wife, but your friend, an equal party, chose to cheat on you, a FRIEND. When a mistress is not someone you know, it's different. But a friend owes it to you that she keep off your man. So she's basically been having her cake and eating it too.. a respectable marriage, kids, a friend who trusted her and did a lot for her, and the friend's husband to give her sex on demand.

 

Well, I suggest you pay her back. Why should she get away with hurting you? I think you SHOULD hit her where it hurts most. She pretended to be your friend, and stabbed you in the back. I think she's asked for what's coming to her. She wrecked your marriage (WITH your cheating, lowlife, spouse) and she should have to go through some of that pain again. I say...call her husband and tell on her. Two can play at a game of backstabbing.....

 

Stay strong... you'll find a BETTER and truer friend. Also, get to work and kick your loser husband out the door too...No reason why he should get off scotfree either.

[EnigmaXOXO]

You know guys; I think this thread has been an interesting study in "Karma."

 

It sure proves how contagious feelings of anger, hostility and negativity can be for anyone within close proximity.

 

Funny thing is, Sandy has probably already patched things up with her husband and is sitting back laughing at all of us as she reads this! Would certainly be ironic if we were just a case study for her next Psychology Thesis!

 

Oh well, at least no one can say we Shakers are not capable of empathy. And let us not forget to thank our illustrious author for pigeoning the forum and getting us all pissed off at each other too! … LOL

[Girlinterrupted]

Funny thing is, Sandy has probably already patched things up with her husband and is sitting back laughing at all of us as she reads this! Would certainly be ironic if we were just a case study for her next Psychology Thesis!

 

Well EnigmaXOXO that could very well be the case with any of these post, if we all thought like that there would be no Shack.

 

Besides if she patched things up w/ the "hubby" I doubt she will be laughing anytime soon.

[lostforwords]

Oh well, at least no one can say we Shakers are not capable of empathy. And let us not forget to thank our illustrious author for pigeoning the forum and getting us all pissed off at each other too! … LOL

 

This should be the quote of the day...... im a big believer in karma........ if in fact she did set forth to do so..... then i am very guilty of this.... and realize once again.... to err is human....and to forgive is something ive grown quite accustomed to.

[bark]

I am, frankly, astonished that anyone would disagree, much less disagree with the venom and vigour which some people have. However, it just supports my theory that people have less and less regard for values like nobility and self-sacrifice

 

moimeme, please heed jenny's wise counsel:

 

"here are the guidelines i now use, for myself; and they work so far.

 

1. always attack the idea, or the action, not the person. i think it's ok to judge, as long as i'm aware my judgement is informed by my social and cultural context. i think plagiarizing is actually evil, for example, but i know i do so because of my social and cultural background. i think homophobia is inexcusable, and i will attack the ideas behind it, but i also know this is my 'issue' because of my friends, education, and community.

 

2. never use prejudicial language . never use words to suggest that anyone not thinking a certain way is a bad, unreasonable, immoral, or stupid person."

 

Reasonable people can disagree strongly with a particular position a poster takes without possessing "less regard [than the poster] for values like nobility and self-sacrifice."

 

That's just my opinion.

 

 

[moimeme]

"less regard [than the poster] for values like nobility and self-sacrifice."

 

I just think that, given the option between choosing the high road and opting for the other path, a lot of people favour retribution instead. It's a different world. That's all I'm saying.

[VivianLee]

I'm not clear on why you are remaining with this man.....could you go over that reason again please?