S(rew the need for Indisputable Proof when you KNOW they are Cheating!

[Athena]

In several of the threads here on the Infidelity board, some posters insist on having indisputable proof of cheating.

 

However, relationships differ from the American Court System where a Suspect is considered Innocent until proven guilty. Somehow I think it's wrong that a betrayed spouse has to prove that the wandering spouse is Indeed Cheating, when Everything else points to it... just the 'smoking gun' is missing... (heck even in court some suspected murderers are STILL convicted Without the smoking gun!).

 

You see, people in relationships KNOW their spouses, sometimes inside out. They KNOW when they are being lied to, gaslighted, and when Something is Not Right... they figure out that there must be an Affair going on... and -- Get This -- when the suspected CS smugly says s/he is not cheating, but continues to guard their privacy, hiding emails, FaceBook, deleting text messages, behaving clandestinely, then what is a probable betrayed spouse to think?!

 

Getting the Proof

Makes you become Obsessive.

Weakens you.

Can cause you to fall into a depression.

Keeps you Stuck.

Allows the CS to carry on their merry ways.

F**k$ you over.

 

Sometimes, you have to ignore what the liar is saying, and watch his body language which he or she cannot as easily control.

 

We know what we see, hear, feel, and can compare and contrast a loved one's movements, uneasiness, changed habits, lies -- yes, we can tell they are lying, but we don't know About What, or What the Truth is!

 

The fact of the matter is that Communication is through a lot more than Just VERBAL communication!!! So WHY we choose to believe the words they espouse, and ignore the rest of what their body language is, I do not know.

[bligh]

I hear what you are saying. For me, my wife's behavior was the biggest clue as to what was going on. The secret email accounts, the "deer in the headlights" looks, the secret phone, suddenly working out, change of wardrobe, the way she treated me (badly), taking phone calls out in the yard, unexplained absenses, not being in her hotel room while on trips, ect- were so obviously indictative of an affair that her denials just provoked anger on my part.

 

Still, like wanting to find the body in a murder investigation, I wanted proof. It was more to prove it to myself that I wasn't crazy (something she claimed repeatedly). It is hard to explain, but I wanted a confession. I finally painted her into a corner and she confessed. But it took a year.

 

Good luck

[mnm]

Gut feelings are the first indication. Their behavior changes which cracks me up. They think they're being sneaky, but it is so obvious something is going on. It took me a couple months for proof, but I had my suspicions before that.

[2sunny]

body language tells so much! i agree.

 

even when watching strangers from far away it's an easy exercise in figuring out what is going on without even hearing their words.

 

sometimes i watch someone speaking and their body language says one thing and their words tell a different story. this is fascinating to watch what the body does when the person isn't comfortable with the information they are giving.

[Owl]

I would note that the value of the 'proof' depends greatly on what your gameplan is.

 

If you know that you're going to divorce/end the marriage/relationship with them because they're cheating, I'd agree with Athena and say that there's no value in trying to get "proof" in what's going on. It's only going to delay you reaching your end goals. It won't actually 'do' anything to change the situation.

 

But, if you're intending to try to reconcile, I'd have to disagree with Athena (and that doesn't happen often).

 

The deal is this...WS's will NEVER, EVER admit to the affair if there's an option. My wife insisted many times that "he's just a friend" and "you have nothing to worry about".

 

Without being able to FORCE the issue out in the open, I was pretty much powerless to address the problem. I tried the whole "it doesn't matter what you call it, it's still hurting our marriage" route, but her addiction to online gaming, and her depth into the EA pretty much negated any efforts there.

 

It wasn't until I had indisputable, irrefutable evidence that they'd "crossed the line" that she would admit there was a problem, and the situation was brought to a head, eventually forcing change.

 

My experience here and on other forums has pretty much shown me that this plays out like this most commonly. There will be denial, evasion, and outright lies to hide the affair, and very little can be done to begin fixing the marriage until the proof is so "in your face" that they can no longer play that game.

 

Proof does no good if you're going to divorce...but even then, it might if you live in a "fault state".

 

But it's typically a requirement to force change otherwise.

 

Sorry Athena...just being honest about what I've done/seen.

[eeyore1981]

In several of the threads here on the Infidelity board, some posters insist on having indisputable proof of cheating.

 

However, relationships differ from the American Court System where a Suspect is considered Innocent until proven guilty. Somehow I think it's wrong that a betrayed spouse has to prove that the wandering spouse is Indeed Cheating, when Everything else points to it... just the 'smoking gun' is missing... (heck even in court some suspected murderers are STILL convicted Without the smoking gun!).

 

You see, people in relationships KNOW their spouses, sometimes inside out. They KNOW when they are being lied to, gaslighted, and when Something is Not Right... they figure out that there must be an Affair going on... and -- Get This -- when the suspected CS smugly says s/he is not cheating, but continues to guard their privacy, hiding emails, FaceBook, deleting text messages, behaving clandestinely, then what is a probable betrayed spouse to think?!

 

Getting the Proof

Makes you become Obsessive.

Weakens you.

Can cause you to fall into a depression.

Keeps you Stuck.

Allows the CS to carry on their merry ways.

F**k$ you over.

 

Sometimes, you have to ignore what the liar is saying, and watch his body language which he or she cannot as easily control.

 

We know what we see, hear, feel, and can compare and contrast a loved one's movements, uneasiness, changed habits, lies -- yes, we can tell they are lying, but we don't know About What, or What the Truth is!

 

The fact of the matter is that Communication is through a lot more than Just VERBAL communication!!! So WHY we choose to believe the words they espouse, and ignore the rest of what their body language is, I do not know.

 

Last night I wrote a post in the divorce forum explaining my situation. It took me a long time to write it, because I was trying to keep it from being super long yet still get what I wanted to say across. I had timed out, then it said I had signed in before something, and the post was wiped out.

 

What you are saying here is one of the main things I tried to say last night that is pushing me to say F it and just be done. This isn't a game, it is my life. Yet my H, for whatever twisted up reason, lies about everything. Because I wanted to make the marriage work, and his story was flat out BS, I investigated. Every time I found a lie, he would twist and turn and evade and finally admit that one thing, but of course, every thing else was true, and let the game begin again.

When I read the newbies stories of how they suspect, and then the suggestions by the seasoned about checking phone records, comp. history, getting keyloggers, etc., it makes me cringe. We BS's for the most part are desperate to save our marriages, because when we said for better or worse, we meant it, so it is like we are compelled to climb on this roller coaster from hell. The day I accessed the online phone records was the day I clamped a 50# ball and chain around my ankle and volunteered myself up as a prisoner to my husband's lies.

 

Why did I need to obtain concrete proof of what happened when the circumstantial evidence is overwhelming? Because without it, there was always the chance I might be wrong, no matter how slim, and H kept insisting I was wrong, so the BS begins to doubt what every fiber of their being is telling them, and they are so afraid to throw away their marriage over something that might not have been much of anything at all.

 

I've spent 2 years now doing this. The damage inflicted on me because of this is so immense I can't describe it. It has led me to believe the cheaters out there who do this to their BS must have some vast hidden pit of hatred for their spouse, because the damage this inflicts is pretty obvious, but they hold on to the bitter end. You just could not do this to a person you really loved, I will never believe it. When you love someone, you want their happiness, not their devastation, and that is exactly what this does.

[eeyore1981]

I would note that the value of the 'proof' depends greatly on what your gameplan is.

 

If you know that you're going to divorce/end the marriage/relationship with them because they're cheating, I'd agree with Athena and say that there's no value in trying to get "proof" in what's going on. It's only going to delay you reaching your end goals. It won't actually 'do' anything to change the situation.

 

But, if you're intending to try to reconcile, I'd have to disagree with Athena (and that doesn't happen often).

 

The deal is this...WS's will NEVER, EVER admit to the affair if there's an option. My wife insisted many times that "he's just a friend" and "you have nothing to worry about".

 

Without being able to FORCE the issue out in the open, I was pretty much powerless to address the problem. I tried the whole "it doesn't matter what you call it, it's still hurting our marriage" route, but her addiction to online gaming, and her depth into the EA pretty much negated any efforts there.

 

It wasn't until I had indisputable, irrefutable evidence that they'd "crossed the line" that she would admit there was a problem, and the situation was brought to a head, eventually forcing change.

 

My experience here and on other forums has pretty much shown me that this plays out like this most commonly. There will be denial, evasion, and outright lies to hide the affair, and very little can be done to begin fixing the marriage until the proof is so "in your face" that they can no longer play that game.

 

Proof does no good if you're going to divorce...but even then, it might if you live in a "fault state".

 

But it's typically a requirement to force change otherwise.

 

Sorry Athena...just being honest about what I've done/seen.

 

IMO, the value of the proof is exactly what the BS attaches to it. If you are able to find the proof in a few days or a few weeks, then good for you. Unfortunately, the BS has no way to know the outcome when they decide on that first step, so it is a gamble. The longer it drags on, the higher the cost of the search. Too many times the BS pays such a high price, and still has little to nothing to show for it.

If I could go back and do it all over again, knowing what I do now, I would have filed for divorce 2 years ago. No man, no matter how much I love him, is worth the damage I have done to myself for the last 2 years, and what makes it worse is even today this same man could put me out of my misery, just like he could have at any time for the last 2 years, yet he does not. I think this is something BSs need to pound into their brain before they put foot one down this road.

[aeh]

So two months, two weeks since D-Day. Have been feeling like I have had many good days in a row, then bam! Think of something else I need to know, though I don't know what else I could possibly find out.

 

Just thinking that I never did ask to see the emails they exchanged over the 10+months of the A. They were done on his work email and I know he would delete them off his phone (he gets so many work related emails that he would have to) but obviously so I wouldn't see those either. Now, I am wondering if they are still in his inbox/outbox somewhere and if I should ask to see them. He did tell her he loved her ("she always said it first and it was only during sex") but insists he never loved her, it was only about the sex, etc. I want to read the emails to see. Why haven't I thought of this before?

[aeh]

If he deleted them off his phone, they would still be in his inbox/outbox right, unless he deleted them from there, too? But I am thinking maybe he didn't if he was just trying to clear his phone so I wouldn't see fresh messages.

 

Now I'm fixated on this. Tears on keyboard.

[Athena]

But, if you're intending to try to reconcile, I'd have to disagree with Athena (and that doesn't happen often).

 

Yes, I agree with this, actually!

[Athena]

If you are able to find the proof in a few days or a few weeks, then good for you. (...) The longer it drags on, the higher the cost of the search. Too many times the BS pays such a high price, and still has little to nothing to show for it.

If I could go back and do it all over again, knowing what I do now, I would have filed for divorce 2 years ago. No man, no matter how much I love him, is worth the damage I have done to myself for the last 2 years,

 

Yes, yes, yes... THIS is EXACTLY what I am talking about!!!!!!!

[Athena]

If he deleted them off his phone, they would still be in his inbox/outbox right, unless he deleted them from there, too? But I am thinking maybe he didn't if he was just trying to clear his phone so I wouldn't see fresh messages.

 

Now I'm fixated on this. Tears on keyboard.

 

My heart goes out to you...

 

Aeh, my advice is do not ask to see them... simply request that he delete them ALL (so that you know he cannot re-read them and rekindle his memories).

 

If you try get to them, you will only be hurt more.

[foreal]

If he deleted them off his phone, they would still be in his inbox/outbox right, unless he deleted them from there, too? But I am thinking maybe he didn't if he was just trying to clear his phone so I wouldn't see fresh messages.

 

Now I'm fixated on this. Tears on keyboard.

 

AEH:

 

I am sooo totally there with you on this- I have had the same thoughts..I wantd to see my H's work computer (he said okay, anytime)...but then I realized, ahhh Fuch it!!

 

...it ALL was bullshyt, all the crap they said to each other. I saw enough of their lame ass teeny-bopper texts and emails on the phone to know they talked like a couple of immature Aholes. Some of the exchanges were pathetic, hers in particular- talk about NEEDY and CLINGY! My H's were more man-like, not much text, to the point, threw her a bone now and then (Like 'you look good in that dress today') but I never saw any ILYs or anything like that.

 

In the end, I realized what they said to each other was all just a gross exchange between two liars who used each other for their own selfish reasons. GAG.

 

Try to remind yourself that your H is with YOU. He has chosen to be with YOU. As long as he is showing you in every way, EVERY way (not this "ohh I miss my OW, etc) stay focused on each other!

[Athena]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Owl

 

But, if you're intending to try to reconcile, I'd have to disagree with Athena (and that doesn't happen often).

Yes, I agree with this, actually!

 

_________________________

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by eeyore1981

If you are able to find the proof in a few days or a few weeks, then good for you. (...) The longer it drags on, the higher the cost of the search. Too many times the BS pays such a high price, and still has little to nothing to show for it.

If I could go back and do it all over again, knowing what I do now, I would have filed for divorce 2 years ago. No man, no matter how much I love him, is worth the damage I have done to myself for the last 2 years,

Yes, yes, yes... THIS is EXACTLY what I am talking about!!!!!!!

 

_______________________

 

<Sigh> There is a Fine Line between the above two lines of actions, or advice to BS... perhaps I feel the way I do (to stop becoming Obsessed with obtaining Proof, when everything else points to it), because my CS is a serial cheater?

 

Where's the line to be drawn between getting proof to try save the marriage, to ease your conscience that you Really Did the Right Thing, and to say, "Screw it... I KNOW s/he is cheating! I am Done!" and save some of your sanity?

[Owl]

Again Athena, I think that the key differentiator here is the BS's GOAL(s).

 

If you keep trying to get the 'proof'...but get nowhere, even though you KNOW what's going on...eventually you hit a brick wall where you quit working at all the on marriage...you opt for divorce. (ala: MrMayI over on the divorce board)

 

When your goals change from recovery to divorce...the need for proof vanishes as well.

[2sure]

The proof. The facts. The details.

 

Its NOT about "Here is the Proof" so he cannot deny it.

Its about I know the truth and in my heart I want to give him a chance to redeem himself a little by telling it. I know the truth and I want very much to assure myself he is CAPABLE of telling it.

 

Its NOT about obsessing and self inflicting further injury.

Its about taking the power of the lie away, making it a real and tangible part of your life so that you can process it for exactly what it is.

 

I have plenty of facts, I have all the "proof". Reams of it.

The details , the conversations, the who, when , where.

They made me angry, then sad, then I came to terms with them.

 

The fact that my H is too weak and incapable to tell me the things I am clearly strong enough to deal with...makes me sick.

[eeyore1981]

Again Athena, I think that the key differentiator here is the BS's GOAL(s).

 

If you keep trying to get the 'proof'...but get nowhere, even though you KNOW what's going on...eventually you hit a brick wall where you quit working at all the on marriage...you opt for divorce. (ala: MrMayI over on the divorce board)

 

When your goals change from recovery to divorce...the need for proof vanishes as well.

 

This is it exactly. My goal was recovery, but without full disclosure, with the non-stop lying, for me that just isn't possible. So my goal has now changed to divorce, not because I don't love my husband and don't value what our marriage could be, but because I have to save myself.

I almost had an affair. The truth is, if I cheat, then I no longer care what he did with the OW. Whether he knows or not, I will have my secret, too, and the obsessing over his would be over. But at the last minute I chickened out, because it wasn't in my heart to do this, even to him, who is so deserving of having it done. That was one of my 3 options. The other ones are him to quit lying, which I have no control over, and divorce. You don't know how badly I did not want to get a divorce, I am so shattered right now, but I can't lie to myself, to continue on as is, I will probably in a moment of weakness put a bullet in my head, so I feel I have no other choices.

[redtail]

I know the truth and I want very much to assure myself he is CAPABLE of telling it.

 

Yes, 2Sure, this is a very good point. My wife's inability to admit to the truth was the nail that assured and solidified my decision to divorce.

 

When I found solid evidence my wife was continuing her affair, I asked her about it without revealing I had found out. She continued to lie and when confronted with the fact I had proof by reading her journal she had accidently left out, she asked "how could you?" Yeah right...

 

I agree that "indisputable proof of cheating" isn't worth months/years of investigation. But it sure does help with closure.

[PhoenixRise]

I agree with Athena to an extent. I think BS damage themselves looking for the smoking gun to prove what they already know. To me doing this is a sign that you trust someone else (your spouse) more than you trust yourself.

 

It has taken me some time to understand this.

 

On the other hand.

 

I think think the search for proof can often has more to do with wanting to validate your image of who your spouse is.

 

I had always believed my H had integrity and was honest, basically a good man. I wanted him to show me that this is who he was. Even if he cheated, I wanted him to have enough integrity to own up to what he had done. Confronting him with proof, was an attempt to give him a another chance to live up to that expectation.

 

I think in some ways, I was more interested in saving him as a man than I was in saving the marriage.

[2sure]

Lovely - your post resonates with me.

 

Our third D-day, during our last recovery...we didnt. He just went further underground with his cheating. I was June Cleaver...thinking if everything was not always perfect, we would figure it out. I felt Strong that we had recovered and survived and came out on top of the crisis that is infidelity. But none of that ever happened.

 

Instead, when our marriage had hit rock bottom...he picked up a shovel and not only kept digging but beat our marriage to death.

 

And now what? Something changes? his mind, his behavior??

He beat it to death. I dont know what comes after death in his world but it mine, in reality, I know it aint the Leave it to Beaver show.

[Untouchable_Fire]

So that's my sob story. My husband has recently (past 8 months) really opened up and atoned for what he has done. But something is gone inside of me. How does a man who represented (at one point in time) the greatest threat to my well being now become my trusted, intimate, love?

It would break his heart if I left him so I don't. But I tell him all of the time... how much I wished I could feel his love for me... hoping that I could find my 'in love' for him.

This sucks.

 

It does suck!

 

Holding back allows you to create emotional distance. That space is required for anyone who fears intimacy. We fear being seen and judged as anything less than perfect.

 

Do you think this may be what happened in your case?

[eeyore1981]

It makes me so sad to see this, and I am guilty of it myself from time to time, but please, people, see the truth.

All you out there who were betrayed, it isn't you, it is them. It didn't happen because you were stupid or a fool, it happened because the cheater had some kind of defect that would allow them to do this to a person they promised to love and cherish.

I have been hurt many times over. I struggle so much with trust issues now, but that is me. I am going to do everything I can do to open myself up to the people around me, and if I get hurt again, then I picked the wrong person, and I will try again.

All this hurt and anguish we have been put through, that is not love. That is meanness, cruelty and selfishness laid on us. Love, that is a beautiful, wonderful thing. I know this because I have had love. I have even had love with my husband, even though it didn't work out, with my children, my family, my friends.

Don't let what these @ssholes have done to us shut us off from something so important to really be alive. We deserve so much better than that.

[whirlygig]

".... The damage inflicted on me because of this is so immense I can't describe it. It has led me to believe the cheaters out there who do this to their BS must have some vast hidden pit of hatred for their spouse, because the damage this inflicts is pretty obvious, but they hold on to the bitter end. You just could not do this to a person you really loved, I will never believe it. When you love someone, you want their happiness, not their devastation, and that is exactly what this does."

 

---

 

Oh wow, that says it all right there.... That the serial liars really may not have the capacity to *really* love in the first place.

 

I've read your posts, Eeyore, and really feel for you. I am in a similar spot in the road.

 

It is dawning on my that perhaps my husband really doesn't love me, or maybe doesn't know how. (and I have to question all the notions I've had about H up 'til now) Maybe some people are in love with 'being in love' but lack the emotional bandwidth to sustain a relationship, however needy they are. I feel this clingyness coming from my H in spite of the cold attitude and harsh words, like he *needs* me.... like it is about him and not about us or me. How else could he do this to me?

 

It doesn't feel like 'love' once I took the blinders off. It is very disconcerting. And now I'm having nightmares about these things:

 

dream last night:

 

>>>I dreamt that I was in the basement and something was giving of an off odor, but wasn't concerning me too much. As I picked up some other container of stuff, powder started spilling out and the combination of the 2 odors (chemicals or whatever they were) created a toxic mess that made it hard to breathe. I felt like I was going to die (in the dream) but crawled towards the stairs and tried to get up them. Then I realized H was in the hall at the top of the stairs talking on the phone right by the open doorway. I called for him to help me and to call 911 but he just stood there looking at me and talking- louder, to drown me out. (woke up then. i've never had such a dream before now!<<<

 

So, proof? Well, there has to be resolution in reasonable time, proof or no... because the costs to the psyche are high.

[whirlygig]

The proof. The facts. The details.

 

I have plenty of facts, I have all the "proof". Reams of it.

The details , the conversations, the who, when , where.

They made me angry, then sad, then I came to terms with them.

 

The fact that my H is too weak and incapable to tell me the things I am clearly strong enough to deal with...makes me sick.

 

 

You say "my H is" ... are you still together and working on things? How does that go after you know all the bare facts? Sticking it out and doing MC, going thru D,? I hope I'm not prying but I would love to understand how this goes.

Thanks-

Whirly

[ArtAsylumBoy]

I know I'm not alone in those times when you have actually found proof of something going on, yet they still tell you that you're being ridiculous. I caught my wife screwing around with one of her employees for the past few months and when I show her the e-mails I found between them and the apartment pass she needed to get to his place and the phone records, she told me they were just good friends and that I was being totally obsessive and that she couldn't handle my **** anymore. I told her that was fine and that I would go ahead and call her HR department and show them what's going on if she keeps lying to me. Well, wouldn't you know, she didn't care about losing me or her kids, but once I threatened her job, she sang like a canary about everything.

So even waving proof in their face doesn't mean anything to someone who could do something so awful. They cheated on you. Why wouldn't they lie to you?