"If you want sex, then you will have to get it somewhere else."

[Untouchable_Fire]

James, I sincerely think that both you and your wife need IC, then discussions between the two of you. After you both know where you and your partner stand and what drives each of you, then and only then, can you make any hard decisions about future direction. If the direction is together, then the decision can't be unilateral.

 

I think your correct TBF!

 

James, I doubt your wife is happy with the situation. I know your not considering divorce because of the kids, and I would bet money she has the same thing in mind.

 

There is a good chance that once your kids are old enough... your wife will be the one initiating a divorce. You should be prepared for that!

 

Especially if she is telling you to go get it elsewhere.... that is just going to make her feel that less guilty when she drops the hammer!

[Thornton]

Thornton - thank you so much for laying it all out there for us guys. It's hard to hear, but it's the honest truth and it really does explain so much.

 

You're welcome. I guess what I'm saying is that during the initial honeymoon period a strong emotional attraction can be enough to overcome a lack of physical attraction... but that honeymoon period doesn't last, and when it's over the lack of physical attraction becomes increasingly apparent, leading to a lack of sex... although due to emotional entanglements the relationship itself may not end at this point. This isn't the case for all sexless relationships, but it certainly applied in my case, and in many others I bet.

[Mr. Lucky]

WINNER!!! This is exactly what's going on.

 

James - as a man I implore you... GRAB YOUR BALLS AND LEAVE!

How many times does the OP have to say that divorce isn't an option for him? Is it that hard to believe that, as much as he misses the sexual connection, he loves his wife, children and life more? People soldier on in marriage in the face of all kinds of adversity and many make major compomises. James is neither the first nor the last...

 

Mr. Lucky

[tommyr]

You may remember me from several years ago. I was in exact same situation as you - great marriage in every way, except for one small problem: no sex. Wife was not interested. We talked about it, fought about it, saw a counselor about it. There were brief periods of progress but eventually thing would cool down again.

 

Fast forward to the present: our sexlife is great, averaging twice per week for the past 2 years. Not only that but our marriage is closer, more intimate, than ever.

 

You have been given lots of advice on this thread, now here is some advice from a guy who has actually solved your same problem. Before reading ahead it might help for you to go back and read some old posts from LadyJane and Touche, especially the 'headlights in the driveway" thread.

 

Now here goes:

Invite her on a stroll around the neighborhood with you. In a sincere and loving but firm tone, tell her that you need sex on weekly basis to be happy in the marriage. Ask if she is willing to do this. Now be quiet for a while and let her answer. If you are not certain of her response, repeat the question and be clear if she means yes or no.

 

If she says no, ask why she thinks that you will keep meeting her needs when she is unwilling to meet yours.

 

You will then have all the data you need to make a decision.

[OpenBook]

Invite her on a stroll around the neighborhood with you. In a sincere and loving but firm tone, tell her that you need sex on weekly basis to be happy in the marriage. Ask if she is willing to do this. Now be quiet for a while and let her answer. If you are not certain of her response, repeat the question and be clear if she means yes or no.

 

Um, I think he's already covered that territory with her, plenty of times.

 

If she says no, ask why she thinks that you will keep meeting her needs when she is unwilling to meet yours.

 

That right there is the heart of James's problem, IMO. He won't leave her, and she knows it. So she has no motivation to meet his needs. She knows that he needs her a lot more than she needs him.

 

[[OpenBook shudders]] So sorry to hear this, James, I feel for you man... You're a dead man walking.

[mem11363]

Tommyr - You NAILED this. Everyone speaks as if the option is divorce or suck it up. Not so. Not even close. James can simply select a couple areas where he is curerntly exerting himself to make life really easy for his wife and stop doing so.

 

I am not suggesting being mean, argumentative or jerky. Just targeted "indifference" to her needs. If you really want her to empathize start politely cutting her off when she wants to discuss something that is upsetting her. Just say "sorry I have had long day, can we talk about this some other time"?

 

I understand his unwillingness to to the nuclear option and divorce, what I fail to understand is why he is not willing to do anything major to "share the pain" with her.

 

"Targeted indifference is a time honored technique for changing spousal behavior"

 

You may remember me from several years ago. I was in exact same situation as you - great marriage in every way, except for one small problem: no sex. Wife was not interested. We talked about it, fought about it, saw a counselor about it. There were brief periods of progress but eventually thing would cool down again.

 

Fast forward to the present: our sexlife is great, averaging twice per week for the past 2 years. Not only that but our marriage is closer, more intimate, than ever.

 

You have been given lots of advice on this thread, now here is some advice from a guy who has actually solved your same problem. Before reading ahead it might help for you to go back and read some old posts from LadyJane and Touche, especially the 'headlights in the driveway" thread.

 

Now here goes:

Invite her on a stroll around the neighborhood with you. In a sincere and loving but firm tone, tell her that you need sex on weekly basis to be happy in the marriage. Ask if she is willing to do this. Now be quiet for a while and let her answer. If you are not certain of her response, repeat the question and be clear if she means yes or no.

 

If she says no, ask why she thinks that you will keep meeting her needs when she is unwilling to meet yours.

 

You will then have all the data you need to make a decision.

[carhill]

I hope it works. That 'strategy' bought me a divorce. Of course, it's entirely possible my wife was itching for one and that just gave her more 'reasons'. James' wife might have a totally different perspective and psychology. I hope

[mem11363]

I agree this situation is likely very common. When I spoke of rarity I was referring solely to how often we get this level of openness from a highly self aware person.

 

 

 

 

It's easy to be transparent on an anonymous discussion forum. I think women mistaking friendship and emotional closeness for sexual attraction (and only facing up to the true lack of physical attraction much later on) is more common than you might think. I hope that my transparency might give other people in a similar situation some insight, even if their situation isn't quite the same as mine.

 

To answer your question: I wasn't too bothered about feeling sexual with another person... I didn't fancy my partner and there was nobody else on the scene that I fancied either, so it's not like I was missing anything, plus I was still "taking care of myself" even though my partner didn't know it. I always felt that the relationship couldn't be permanent because I did miss having sex and I wanted children in the future; but as I said, there was nobody else I wanted to have sex with at the time anyway. Perhaps if I had met someone else who I did feel attracted to then I might have ended my relationship sooner, but as things stood I was better off in a happy friendship than I was alone, particularly given our living arrangements and the difficulties of splitting up. I would always think "the relationship will end eventually, but there's no sense in ending it right now, because we're reasonably happy apart from the sex thing and there's nothing else spoiling". I still felt attractive because I would get compliments on my looks and outfits from men and women, guys would flirt with me when I went out with my friends, I just didn't feel a need to follow through with that and actually have sex with someone. Having my partner pursuing me for sex didn't make me feel attractive, it just made me feel slightly annoyed and I was glad when he stopped it.

 

Weird as it may sound, I was actually quite happy during that period; we had a very stable and happy relationship, we were good friends and we never argued, our families loved each other and I really felt like I belonged, we had fun and I always felt supported and loved. I wish I could have felt physical attraction for him, because other than that our relationship was perfect... I would often wish that I could meet someone exactly like my partner but more handsome. Ultimately, I guess if you don't find someone physically attractive then everything else is in vain... I learned that lesson the hard way.

[giotto]

the more I read this the more I think James's W just cares for him, but she doesn't love him anymore. And, as in my marriage, when you are together for many years, it's difficult to let go. It goes deeper than that and it's an intricate tangle of feelings and emotions. And then there are the children and your lives together, indelibly stamped in you memories and souls. Hell, it's almost impossible to imagine a life without all that.

 

James seems to be very good with guilt as I am. I'm the champion of guilt. It's my speciality. I feel guilty for everything and about everything. My counsellor once told me that guilt is repressed anger. I think he had a point.

[Sam Spade]

Of course it is hard to let go, but that doesn't mean that there is no choice. In this case, between pretty frustrating victim-ish existence and trying to start over. I guess the longer you're married, the harder it gets to sustain any personal pride, especially if the family is a major source of your pride. I think everybdy should have their own happy place where no one else is allowed to go .

[EnigmaXOXO]

In spite of your difficulties, you have always been a strong advocate of marriage and all it is suppose to represent... both in regard to your religious and social views. So given the core values and convictions you’ve always based your decisions on, what do you honestly believe would be the greater breech of your marital vows and/or beliefs... Infidelity or divorce? Remember, either way you’re still exiting your marriage. There’s no way around that fact.

 

If you truly believe that your marriage is over, then it's over. But James, don’t fool yourself in the process. The best decisions are seldom the easiest ones, and the hardest ones always take courage. The “best” decision for you is the one that will allow you to stand proudly in front of your children, and at the end of the day still like the man you see in the mirror.

[norajane]

As unfair as it seems, an A or paid sex will land you in divorce court...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

I totally agree. Your wife will not simply accept you seeking it somewhere esle despite what she said. And I don't think you would be happy doing so anyway. What you crave is the physical and emotional connection to your wife that can only come through sex.

 

I'm sure James's wife is suffering as well because of this. It can't be easy for her either, especially because she seems to care a lot about her husband. But there lies the problem, in my opinion: she cares about him, but is it love? We might never know...

 

If she is suffering, wouldn't she have expressed that to James? Has she done anything about it, or even acknowledged that it is an issue for her? Has she considered going to IC herself to help her understand what specifically her issues might be? What has she done proactively on her own to acknowledge the sexual problems in their marriage, acknowledge the damage it is doing to their marriage and to her or James?

 

the more I read this the more I think James's W just cares for him, but she doesn't love him anymore. And, as in my marriage, when you are together for many years, it's difficult to let go. It goes deeper than that and it's an intricate tangle of feelings and emotions. And then there are the children and your lives together, indelibly stamped in you memories and souls. Hell, it's almost impossible to imagine a life without all that.

 

There are all kinds of marriages out there. In many cultures, such as in India, marriage is a social contract and arranged marriages are the norm and people don't marry because they are in love and passionate about each other. Yet, those marriages are successful because their expectations for marriage are about creating families and raising children and many learn to care for each other without ever having that passion - they don't expect passion.

 

Whether a passionless marriage centered around family and comfort is enough for James...only he can say. I'd venture that it is not, but that is what he finds himself in. The situation is exacerbated because he does feel passion for her, though it is not returned.

 

James, why is your wife washing her hands of this whole thing? To me, that's what her "get it somewhere else" comment meant. That she just doesn't want to deal with this issue anymore and has decided it is YOUR problem to deal with. That she doesn't even want to talk about it anymore.

 

Why has it taken so long for you to seriously consider counseling for yourself, for your wife, for your marriage? That's no guarantee of anything, but it would appear that you and your wife have exhausted your ability to communicate on this issue in any productive way, nor have you been able to resolve it in a way that doesn't leave you out in the cold.

 

What would your wife do if you told her, "If I had my druthers, I wouldn't provide you with emotional support anymore, and I don't care if you get it somewhere else"? Would she suck it up and stay with you if you preferred distance and withdrawal and if that is all you offered for the rest of your lives?

[Sam Spade]

The more I read, the more pissed off i get:mad::mad:.

If she's been made fully aware of how unhealthy this situation feels yet refuses to take any responsibility, that does make her a selfish person.

A marriage is the whole package, and she can't pick and chose which aspects to retain. If she can't make it work, than SHE should show some dignity and file for divorce instead of putting - again - the ball in his court. :mad:

[Trialbyfire]

In spite of your difficulties, you have always been a strong advocate of marriage and all it is suppose to represent... both in regard to your religious and social views. So given the core values and convictions you’ve always based your decisions on, what do you honestly believe would be the greater breech of your marital vows and/or beliefs... Infidelity or divorce? Remember, either way you’re still exiting your marriage. There’s no way around that fact.

 

If you truly believe that your marriage is over, then it's over. But James, don’t fool yourself in the process. The best decisions are seldom the easiest ones, and the hardest ones always take courage. The “best” decision for you is the one that will allow you to stand proudly in front of your children, and at the end of the day still like the man you see in the mirror.

I loved this post. The bolded portion concerns me about James. As a man who has been sitting on the edge of decision, in many ways, I think he's emotionally already exited his marriage in some ways. He's been ripe for the picking for years now, for predatory individuals. I truly hope he hasn't succumbed to external validators/predators, especially considering his beliefs in both marriage and religion.

[carhill]

He's been ripe for the picking for years now, for predatory individuals. I truly hope he hasn't succumbed to external validators/predators, especially considering his beliefs in both marriage and religion.

 

That happened to me, regrettably. It wouldn't have if we had gone to MC sooner. Circumstances (my mom's dementia) interfered. Sometimes life just doesn't go perfect. If I had to do it over, I would have gone to IC while caregiving to save my sanity.

 

James' life sounds a lot more pleasant, but the undertones are still there. The years pile up.

[OpenBook]

In spite of your difficulties, you have always been a strong advocate of marriage and all it is suppose to represent... both in regard to your religious and social views. So given the core values and convictions you’ve always based your decisions on, what do you honestly believe would be the greater breech of your marital vows and/or beliefs... Infidelity or divorce? Remember, either way you’re still exiting your marriage. There’s no way around that fact.

 

If you truly believe that your marriage is over, then it's over. But James, don’t fool yourself in the process. The best decisions are seldom the easiest ones, and the hardest ones always take courage. The “best” decision for you is the one that will allow you to stand proudly in front of your children, and at the end of the day still like the man you see in the mirror.

 

You are strongly insinuating that the highest moral solution for James would be to stay married and faithful. This effectively means that courage/integrity = a sexless life for James. That's a tough choice - especially for a man!!

[Pink Cupcakes]

You do have sex twice a month and you said she does enjoy it. She just has a lower sex drive. You're not starving because you do get "fed" twice a month.

[EnigmaXOXO]

You are strongly insinuating that the highest moral solution for James would be to stay married and faithful.

 

I’m stating that there’s no better time to lean on one’s own core values and personal convictions then when the chips are down. It’s easy to succumb to our own self-pity and do what feels good or easiest for ourselves in the moment and loose sight of the eventual outcome or consequences of our choices. In these situations, we are even inclined to lose sight of ourselves and who we are as individuals in the process.

 

Indeed, it’s easy to feel swayed, even completely changed by external influences. But what happens “to us” has nothing at all to do with how we choose to reciprocate, respond or react. That’s all on us, as individuals. And in the end, we’re all left standing alone to reconcile the decisions we’ve made. Good or bad.

 

I’m of the belief that when it comes to dismantling a marriage or entire family, no stone should be left unturned before deciding to pull the plug. I agree with the others that professional counseling is a viable third option to infidelity or divorce. Particularly for someone who considers their children’s emotional well-being as one of the main reasons for wanting to make their marriage work. Infidelity is just as detrimental to the family unit as divorce. It’s not nearly the safe “option” to marital recovery or divorce that many would like to make it seem. It’s simply a longer and more painful road to the same end, and usually involves exposing a third party to the ensuing relationship chaos who is not qualified or trained to be an objective observer or of any real “help” to the individual, the marriage or the family unit... IF salvaging the marriage is one’s main objective.

 

This is a time for James to consider what his real priorities and values are, and act in accordance to his own conscience and personal convictions without being swayed the by the agendas of others looking to validate themselves through him. What one does in the face of adversity is the only true measure of a man (or woman) in spite of whatever opinions we outsiders might have regarding James, his wife and the state of their marriage.

 

Whatever his decision, James will act in accordance with whomever James is... as a free-thinking individual fully capable of making his own choices.

[Mr. Lucky]

You do have sex twice a month and you said she does enjoy it. She just has a lower sex drive. You're not starving because you do get "fed" twice a month.

How would you feel if someone held you underwater and let you come up for one gasp of air every 60 seconds or so? You'd still be breathing, right?

 

It's not just the sex, it's the connection that goes along with it. And refusal is the "anti-connection" in a relationship...

 

Mr. Lucky

[Pink Cupcakes]

Well if you're only connection is sex, your marriage is in trouble anyway. Sex is not the only, or most important way, to connect.

[Mr. Lucky]

So you'd be OK in a marriage where your partner felt that your need for sex and desire for that type of connection was unimportant? And you wouldn't take that partner's refusal of that type of intimacy to heart?

 

Mr. Lucky

[Thaddeus]

Well if you're only connection is sex, your marriage is in trouble anyway. Sex is not the only, or most important way, to connect.

To a man, it is.

[mem11363]

PC,

You truly have no understanding of how the typical man thinks/feels/reacts. If you did, you would not make these simplistic cartoonlike statements.

 

 

 

 

Well if you're only connection is sex, your marriage is in trouble anyway. Sex is not the only, or most important way, to connect.

[OpenBook]

This is a time for James to consider what his real priorities and values are, and act in accordance to his own conscience and personal convictions without being swayed the by the agendas of others looking to validate themselves through him.

 

I don't understand. Who is trying to validate themselves through James????

[silverstalkings]

Did this come subsequently to an operation or health problem?

 

i have a hard time understanding as my ex husband and i used to have passionate lovemaking at least once every other day. i am so sorry your wife is doing this to you almost as if for punishment.

there is nothing wrong with getting your needs met elsewhere if your wife is too lazy to take care of the man in her life.