"If you want sex, then you will have to get it somewhere else."

[Toodamnpragmatic]

TDP - Sorry for my uncivil tone this morning, you did not deserve that.

 

It does seem that what TNhusband did worked for him.

 

I am genuinely curious as to why you believe that his strategy is not generally applicable? (yes I know this is an unfair question - because his approach and mine are so similar I might as well have asked...)

 

Not trying to be repetitive, just trying to understand.

 

Hey and I have been caustic poking fun at you and your wonderful relationship.... Sometimes I can't help myself.

 

You throw a woman on a bed who is not expecting it or ready for sex and often as not she will hate you or fight you..... Masculine, manly, spontaneous works in romance novels and may for some women who are predisposed to that sort of action/fantasy. This does not mean that sex need only be soft lights, candles, sweet and under the covers.....

 

Where I do 100% agree is that you need to be more assertive, not as needy and stand up for oneself. You can do those things that some think are unmanly (doing dishes, cooking, vacuuming), but once you become a doormat, that is how you will be perceived and thought of.

[tnhusband]

What a story and happy it worked for you. Unfortunately doubt it would work for others. the one thing I agree with is that you are responsible to make yourself happy and with you asserting yourself in other ways at home with your attitude, demeaner and "standing up" for yourself you were in a happier place. May be we need to all do that....

 

You are missing my point (and this is hard for to explain) - what I changed about me was what worked for me and my wife (and her libido). What will work for James might/probably will be something different. The key is he has to change. Not her.

[tnhusband]

You throw a woman on a bed who is not expecting it or ready for sex and often as not she will hate you or fight you..... Masculine, manly, spontaneous works in romance novels and may for some women who are predisposed to that sort of action/fantasy. This does not mean that sex need only be soft lights, candles, sweet and under the covers.....

 

Where I do 100% agree is that you need to be more assertive, not as needy and stand up for oneself. You can do those things that some think are unmanly (doing dishes, cooking, vacuuming), but once you become a doormat, that is how you will be perceived and thought of.

 

Again - this is what I was saying worked me & my wife - what works for James & his wife is for him to find out but he has got to stop whining, begging, talking about sex with his wife. Her brain/body is not thinking about sex the way people with libido's usually do. And nothing he says to her will change that. Not guilt, not fear, not sexual technique nothing.

[tnhusband]

You're misunderstanding.

 

The goal is not to coerce her into having sex with him. The goal is to convince her to put some effort into fixing the underlying problems.

 

This isn't about sex. This is about her refusal to solve the problem at hand. There is a glaring problem (she has no interest in sex) and she completely refuses to address it, which is an even bigger problem!

 

Make sense now?

 

No I totally understand - you just don't get where I am coming from and I'm sorry if I have not explained myself better - SHE DOES NOT CARE ABOUT SEX. And nothing he "says" to her is going to flip that switch.

 

I used to bring up these types of theories with my wife all the time - "if you cared about me you would try to do something about it", "don't you love me", "you enjoy it once we get going" - even "if you don't care about sex then why do you care if I have sex with someone else".

 

She even told me like James wife - "please stop having the talk with me and just go get it somewhere else if that will make you happy"

 

This is not a refusal on her part to not try to improve the issue - SHE DOES NOT KNOW WHAT IS WRONG. So she forgets about it until he brings up again. And the cycle repeats itself.

 

I truely believe that like my wife, she is not doing any of this on purpose - her refusual to try to fix the problem is not a bad reflection on their marriage. I bet they have a great marriage - just like I did - apart from her low libido.

 

James - over the past few years I have talked to other husbands who have used this approach - it hasn't worked for all of them - but it has worked for a lot of them.

 

You have tried all the other things - I know you have. Just like I did. Figure out something to change about yourself and have fun with it - one side benefit for me was it helped me take my mind off of sex. e.g. I started fishing with friends. Not to get away from her. But to have some fun and have some independence. I don't think me fishing ended up having any effect on her libido - but I had fun and have a new hobby.

 

Go skydiving, bowling, join a sports team, start weraing a skirt around the house! Just make some changes.

[JamesM]

Again, I picked some posts to quote, but appreciated the other ones. Some said what these said...some weren't even addressed to me.

 

James, is there any possibility that after you've had sex that you are then more satisfied and somewhat less "in tune" with your wife's emotional desires? So that if your wife gives you what you want - sex - she experiences it as taking away from what she wants - emotional bonding?

 

I hadn't really thought of it. I do know that when I really wanted it (before I realized that this was useless), I was really nice so that I could get it. But that has been awhile. I think that some attentiveness may disappear because I am "satisfied," but I don't think I become an ogre. I will have to think about it.

 

You're misunderstanding.

 

The goal is not to coerce her into having sex with him. The goal is to convince her to put some effort into fixing the underlying problems.

 

This isn't about sex. This is about her refusal to solve the problem at hand. There is a glaring problem (she has no interest in sex) and she completely refuses to address it, which is an even bigger problem!

 

Make sense now?

 

Yes. And while this was not addressed to me, this did say what I think is the problem. It is not about sex, but about the fact that she doesn't want to do anything about it.

 

Hence, my talk of cheating. If it is not important to her, then she shouldn't mind if I get it elsewhere.

 

I have the utmost respect for JamesM.

 

His wife is a victim of sexual abuse/incest.

 

Incest isn't a 'mood' or attitude... or hormone. It is mind and heart altering.

 

Asking her to change her 'tude' is like suggesting a deflated helium balloon float.

 

JamesM... I take my hat off to you. You are an amazing man.

 

Thank you for your kind words. I do not think people realize how sex abuse can affect someone...even while it looks like it doesn't affect them.

 

BTW, she has had a number of years of therapy for this, and for the most part, I can say (and see) that it has been resolved.

 

OK, how do you constructively criticize an incest survivor? Does their history and trauma obviate all personal responsibility and boundaries? Where do you draw the line?

 

 

I can honestly say, having been married to someone with that in her past, I will never consciously get involved with a similar person again.

 

These are good questions. I do know that sometimes it seems that the past is an excuse, but when I hear stories of the past, then I am amazed at how she survived and became as compassionate and wonderful as she is.

 

And, carhill, I agree. I would never knowingly get into a relationship with a sex abuse survivor again. Having said that, I also know that it is the person who I fall in love with and not their past.

 

I would like to point out that I knew about all of this before marriage. I actually began figuring out all of her past by little bits she said. But as an innocent young man, I didn't realize that it would continue to be a problem since she was in therapy when we met.

 

I am noticing that posters are saying that the sex stopped after the birth of the last child.

 

Its a common occurence for abuse survivors to be turned off of sex following the pregnancy and childbirth.

 

NID, I can tell that you truly understand her...maybe even better than I do.

 

This is not quite true in our lives however. Close though. It actually began before our last child a little, but I didn't realize it. And obviously, it only takes once to get pregnant, and the last one was unexpected. So she could have no longer wanted more children even though we had one.

 

The third one was the difficult one and the fourth one was okay, but after that, she became afraid of a problem during labor. She was always very strong throughout her labor and deliveries which were not easy...even the nurses would say so. Only on the last birth did she have any pain medicine. She usually just lay there and breathed.

 

Is this a connection to our lack of sex? I don't know but don't think so in one sense, but it could be in another. See below.

 

If that were the trigger, shouldn't it have happened after their first child? Yet their sex life was fine then, and she went on to have 3 more, I believe. Then the sex dried up.

 

It kinda dried up before the last. But not as completely as it has since about 2004 or so...which was three years after our last one.

 

As for it not happening after our first, the best explanation is that she wanted a number of children. In fact, when we tried for our second, I got so "sick" of having sex. Can't believe I ever felt that way.

 

But to put an interesting twist into this, I will reveal some intimate details about me.

 

After our last child, we decided to have no more. And she said that she would like to have sex without the "fear" (my word) of getting pregnant again. And she said that if she didn't have that worry, then she would have more sex. So you see....it was there already. So, I got a vasectomy when our youngest was about six months old.

 

Did this change our sex amount or passion? Yes for the next year or so, things were good. But it was not the solution. The decline in sex really did not happen noticeable until around 2004.

 

Perhaps the knowledge that sex is now for fun takes all need away? But that does not explain WHY there is no sexual desire in her...unless there never has been.

 

Are you certain of this? I thought she always had a much lower libido than James but I could be wrong.

 

It has been lower, but it has been there. Honestly, I can say that I had wished for more at times, but as is her personality, it had its ups and downs. Overall, I cannot say that it ever was a big problem.

 

My bet is she made a conscious unilateral decision that 4 children is enough (I would support that) and that, since no more procreation was necessary, sex was no longer necessary.

 

 

She did, but that should not hinder sex. As noted above, I had a vasectomy. And the decline in sex began a few years after our last child.

 

As for how she felt during sex....another more than need to know, she had orgasms from oral and enjoyed them. However, without details, I can see that this may bring back memories, too.

 

I just don't buy that incest is now causing problems where James said that they have had normal sex life for the first few years of their relationship. He even stated that on their honeymoon they had "too much sex". It just doesn't add up.

 

What people do not seem to get is that it is very possible to be an incest victim AND lose sexual attraction for your partner like normal people do without those two things being related.

 

Sigh. James is way too understanding for his own good.

 

Actually, as someone who read all about this, it CAN rear its head at any time for whatever reason. I am not saying that this is what has happened, but it could be.

 

As for alot of sex in the beginning, this is normal. Sex is new (and yes, it was for us). Sex is more about exploring and techniques are being learned with each other.

 

And yes, it could simply be a lack of attraction. Now that I brought that idea up to her (which may have been there but denied), our who life could fall apart.

 

Thank you for the back handed compliment.

 

I had a feeling that she might have been abused in my posts a while back...

 

I'm sorry james...

 

I'm glad maybe she's gonna work on it. I'm still under the impression that if she doesnt get help that you guys do seperate...

 

Thanks for the sympathy. I did go into marriage knowing this. I have no one to blame but myself. In fact, I broke an engagement and came back again. As for her working on her past, this has not been brought up. She last had counseling about 12 years ago. It made a big difference...but did it last? That is the question. Is that what we are dealing with?

 

It all comes down to this for me....the issue is not sex but her lack of willingness to fix the problem. Is she now going to put a band aid on the problem by satisfying me for awhile and then slacking off (as before), or will she try to find the root of the problem? If she discovers that it is not physical (because I am convinced that she will at the least follow through with that investigation), then will she look further into it or simply have more sex to "keep me happy?" All questions remain to be answered.

 

Sorry for the thread jack James but when I read about all the people who've been abused as children, it makes me want to take a magnum 45 to molesters/abusers.

 

I love children. They don't deserve this.

 

Totally agree. And meeting her was a huge eye opener that such things could happen in families that appear to be so "Christian." And BTW, there were more sisters.

 

Ironically, I think I was the only BIL to enter into marriage knowing what had happened. All of the others discovered after...because of my wife's therapy. I feel sorry for them. All of them are great guys.

 

I still believe that James is seen as a "friend" now and not as a lover anymore. I understand that James doesn't want to "force" her wife to have sex with him by threatening a divorce, but if she agreed to more sex because of that, she might start to enjoy it more and maybe build more of a physical connection with J.

 

This could be true, but I would like it to come from an angle of "I have a passion for sex" not "I have a desire to keep you faithful and married to me." Two big different motivations.

 

I don't want to have sex with her and yet feel that the love is not there. I don't want her to be as you and have her thinking that "I will keep up appearances until the children are grown." Then I have wasted more of my life.

 

 

Again thanks for all of the posts, ideas, and information. It is helpful.

[JamesM]

You are missing my point (and this is hard for to explain) - what I changed about me was what worked for me and my wife (and her libido). What will work for James might/probably will be something different. The key is he has to change. Not her.

 

This is treu to a degree.

 

But I think that if my motivation is change to increase sex, then I will be disappointed. If I change to make me happy, then maybe it will work.

 

And I know this would be controversial, but by taking her control of sex in my life off the table, I think it would also make me a better husband.

 

However, if the sex is to increase in our marriage, it will be up to her to change her. I cannot...that we know. I can only try to get her to realize what our marriage needs. if she continues to view sex as simply a need of mine that must be satisfied, then we will never have a complete marriage.

 

Then I still have the same options as I do now.

[JamesM]

 

This is not a refusal on her part to not try to improve the issue - SHE DOES NOT KNOW WHAT IS WRONG. So she forgets about it until he brings up again. And the cycle repeats itself.

 

This is true with us as well. My fear that this will be the case again.

 

I truely believe that like my wife, she is not doing any of this on purpose - her refusual to try to fix the problem is not a bad reflection on their marriage. I bet they have a great marriage - just like I did - apart from her low libido.

 

I agree. Except it should be noted that a great marriage without sex is simply another word for a great friendship.

 

Figure out something to change about yourself and have fun with it - one side benefit for me was it helped me take my mind off of sex. e.g. I started fishing with friends. Not to get away from her. But to have some fun and have some independence. I don't think me fishing ended up having any effect on her libido - but I had fun and have a new hobby.

 

 

Sorry....fishing with friends doesn't replace sex....unless they are women.

 

I do have hobbies that do keep sex off my mind. And it does give enjoyment.

 

BUT....my motivation in all of this is to improve my marriage. Focusing on other things does nothing to do that.

 

The hope with your method is that if I pretend that sex means nothing while at the same time I keep myself buys and appear to have another life, then she will suddenly become attracted to her "new man."

 

And aren't you the one who had great sex while telling her you would like to be with her an another man? Again, that is NOT me. (Maybe if it was another woman. Okay, don't shoot me...just joking...kinda. )

[giotto]

I don't want to have sex with her and yet feel that the love is not there. I don't want her to be as you and have her thinking that "I will keep up appearances until the children are grown." Then I have wasted more of my life.

 

 

But that's because my wife told me that she didn't love me as she used to anymore... since I was staying, why not have sex? She asked me to stay for the children and the family, so we made a pact. You still have that love, so I understand where you are coming from. I don't have that anymore, so I thought "at least let's have some fun"! I think it's working... we all are much happier and, who knows, maybe that love will return...

[silktricks]

You may not like and he may not like it, but she needs to hear it. Right in her face. Ugly. That's how life is. Sorry to give it to you like that. That's what men do, the dirty work.

 

Some women do as well -

 

And re: James' wife - I personally agree with you. She is taking no responsibility for her lack of desire to make James happy. She promised him many things when she married him, and love was one of those things. She may not want to face the fact, but sex is part of love, it's the physical expression of love. If she refuses to have sex she is breaking the contract just as truly as if James was having an affair. And using her past as justification of breaking that contract (if she is doing so) is neither an excuse or a reason, especially if there is no evidence that she cares about keeping the contract.

[tnhusband]

Some women do as well -

 

And re: James' wife - I personally agree with you. She is taking no responsibility for her lack of desire to make James happy. She promised him many things when she married him, and love was one of those things. She may not want to face the fact, but sex is part of love, it's the physical expression of love. If she refuses to have sex she is breaking the contract just as truly as if James was having an affair. And using her past as justification of breaking that contract (if she is doing so) is neither an excuse or a reason, especially if there is no evidence that she cares about keeping the contract.

 

 

I have seen some of you bring up the word "responsibility" several times. How exactly does she make herself responsible for her libido when she has none? That is one of the keys that James needs to come to terms with - she isn't responsible. It's just nature being cruel - whether it be her past, her present or whatever it's not something women do on purpose (generally!).

 

Anything she does try would still not actually change her libido - it would all be "faked" - this might be nice for James occasionally but I don't think he wants that - he wants his wife to natually have a libido again.

 

Think like this - I have read that when the low libido person finds themselves single and dating again - usually their libido comes back. You can only imagine the ex can really get crushed to hear that their frigid spouse is now having sex again. That's when they realize it wasn't the frigid spouse - it was their behavior (right or wrong). The only thing that changed was YOU - as in you are gone. Reinvent yourself and see what happens. Be the man you were 20 years ago.

 

I'm telling you it works!

[giotto]

I must agree with tnhusband... she has no responsability over her libido. At one point I lost my libido completely (maybe for a couple of days - not sure why) and it was shocking! I had no desire at all and that was a good opportunity to see the whole story from my wife's point of view. I must say I changed my opinion about it.

 

And surely she must find some men sexy, even without her libido... my wife commented on some young man's body on TV the other day and I thought... mmmm, you still feel sexual attraction, then!

 

I suspect it's many different factors: her job, her past, the length of the marriage, the children and... James! Have you asked her, James, if she still loves you like she loved you at the beginning? You might hear a surprising reply...

[carhill]

Be the man you were 20 years ago.

 

James, can you imagine this? Regressing to who you were (the totality of your existence) that long ago? If you're life experience has been anything remotely like mine, you're so far beyond, so far evolved, from that existence it's nothing but a distant memory.

 

This, IMO, is the essence of your irreconcilable differences. If you're being honest with us, in the aspects of intimacy, you have evolved and your W has remained in the emotional past, except with more freedom now to be her authentic self, mainly due to increases in her personal power (financial independence) and emotional power (socio-psychological experience). This is the hardest issue, IMO, and the one I had to work the most on; the issue of acceptance. If you've grown and she hasn't (or vice-versa) your job is to accept that reality. Forcing yourself to 'be the man you used to be' or any other reality which is not who you are today is no different than your W forcing her legs apart and doing something which feels unnatural to her. It's not who she is. Accept that.

 

There was a point in MC where my stbx and I faced this, got to acceptance, and the psychologist said, appropriately, 'you have a decision to make now'. He was spot-on. I'll refrain from adding/commenting until you've gotten back to us with the results of your first session. There is a proper time for silence and reflection. Best wishes

[tnhusband]

I agree. Except it should be noted that a great marriage without sex is simply another word for a great friendship.

 

 

 

Sorry....fishing with friends doesn't replace sex....unless they are women.

 

I do have hobbies that do keep sex off my mind. And it does give enjoyment.

 

BUT....my motivation in all of this is to improve my marriage. Focusing on other things does nothing to do that.

 

The hope with your method is that if I pretend that sex means nothing while at the same time I keep myself buys and appear to have another life, then she will suddenly become attracted to her "new man."

 

And aren't you the one who had great sex while telling her you would like to be with her an another man? Again, that is NOT me. (Maybe if it was another woman. Okay, don't shoot me...just joking...kinda. )

 

I disagree - a great marriage without sex is still a marriage. Don't you feel married? Unhappy, frustrated - of course. But I know deep down you know she's still your wife and not just a great friend

 

My fishing example was not meant to replace sex - it was meant for me to enjoy and hopefully/maybe find out if my wife got turned on by me fishing/going out on the lake etc. Not a great example but it was something different - something outside of the norm (for me).

 

The hobbies you have now are what she's used to - you have to find some new hobbies and interests. Shake things up.

 

This is maybe the hardest part of this concept - when you said "my motivation in all of this is to improve my marriage. Focusing on other things does nothing to do that." - I totally disagree.

 

By focusing on you - whatever that focus is - I think it somehow makes you more attractive. Maybe it takes the pressure of of her. I really wish I could explain it better.

 

And I never pretended that sex meant nothing - I just stopped pressuring her.

 

And as for my other man comment/story - that was just something that turned out to do it for her. She had no idea that it would and or did I - but it did. Find her thing - that you like as well of course.

 

After that night - about a month later - she went on-line and bought a porn movie that involved some fetishes I had no idea she would be into. Surprised me with it one evening - needless to say I was in heaven - the movie wasn't actually my thing - but her being sexual, initiating, opening up - the whole nine yards.

 

To this day she can't explain why she lost her libido or why it came back. And I guess I'm not 100% sure either. But I know what I did and I know the results.

 

I spent close to 3 years of my life trying to get her to change with absolutely no posistive results - I think I made it worse.

 

Then after a few months of the new approach - bam - her libido came back. It's been back for a couple of years and has actually increased with time.

 

Some would say I have manipulated her - especially as I have not told her even now. But a lot of what we do is manipulation - flowers, dinner, jewelry, guilt-trips, threats - it's all a way of trying to get someone to do what we want them to do. Trying to get them in the mood.

 

She doesn't seem to want you sexually the way you are - so stop being the way you are.

 

Remember when George on Seinfeld started acting the complete opposite

[tnhusband]

James, can you imagine this? Regressing to who you were (the totality of your existence) that long ago? If you're life experience has been anything remotely like mine, you're so far beyond, so far evolved, from that existence it's nothing but a distant memory.

 

Car - with all due respect you are taking me a little to literally here - what I'm trying to say is if he becomes more attractive, more exciting it might help.

 

Obviously I don't know James and I don't know his exact situation but I imagine like a lot of people - he has become (subconsiously) her old boring husband. She knows him to well. Physically, mentally, sexually.

[Phateless]

No I totally understand - you just don't get where I am coming from and I'm sorry if I have not explained myself better - SHE DOES NOT CARE ABOUT SEX. And nothing he "says" to her is going to flip that switch.

 

I used to bring up these types of theories with my wife all the time - "if you cared about me you would try to do something about it", "don't you love me", "you enjoy it once we get going" - even "if you don't care about sex then why do you care if I have sex with someone else".

 

She even told me like James wife - "please stop having the talk with me and just go get it somewhere else if that will make you happy"

 

This is not a refusal on her part to not try to improve the issue - SHE DOES NOT KNOW WHAT IS WRONG. So she forgets about it until he brings up again. And the cycle repeats itself.

 

I truely believe that like my wife, she is not doing any of this on purpose - her refusual to try to fix the problem is not a bad reflection on their marriage. I bet they have a great marriage - just like I did - apart from her low libido.

 

James - over the past few years I have talked to other husbands who have used this approach - it hasn't worked for all of them - but it has worked for a lot of them.

 

You have tried all the other things - I know you have. Just like I did. Figure out something to change about yourself and have fun with it - one side benefit for me was it helped me take my mind off of sex. e.g. I started fishing with friends. Not to get away from her. But to have some fun and have some independence. I don't think me fishing ended up having any effect on her libido - but I had fun and have a new hobby.

 

Go skydiving, bowling, join a sports team, start weraing a skirt around the house! Just make some changes.

 

I call BS. Everybody likes sex, it's genetically programmed. She even used to like sex. The difference is that she doesn't want sex with HIM anymore.

 

This relationship is over and he just refuses to see it.

[tnhusband]

I call BS. Everybody likes sex, it's genetically programmed. She even used to like sex. The difference is that she doesn't want sex with HIM anymore.

 

This relationship is over and he just refuses to see it.

 

You are incorrect thinking that everyone likes sex - "asexuality" is a growing group. Look it up. I was concered my wife was possibly a part of that group.

 

To an extent we will have to agree to disagree - you are confusing sex with libido - they are not the same thing.

 

But I do agree she does not want sex with the CURRENT HIM - which is why he needs to make some changes - whatever they may be.

 

To just tell him the relationship is over - is I know just your opinion - but it's not very helpful imho.

[EnigmaXOXO]

It all comes down to this for me....the issue is not sex but her lack of willingness to fix the problem. Is she now going to put a band aid on the problem by satisfying me for awhile and then slacking off (as before), or will she try to find the root of the problem? If she discovers that it is not physical (because I am convinced that she will at the least follow through with that investigation), then will she look further into it or simply have more sex to "keep me happy?"

 

What if she does realize she’s been negligent towards your need for physical intimacy, and again makes a genuine effort (out of love and caring for you) to bridge that gag and come to some compromise in regard to that area. Might this niggling notion you have that she might only be doing it “to keep you happy” get in the way of any step she takes in your direction, and therefore undermine any real chance for recovery the two of you might have?

 

If you’ve even thought that far ahead, what do you think it would take from your wife to convince you that she was having sex because she ‘loved’ you, rather than out of coercion or obligation??

[Phateless]

You are incorrect thinking that everyone likes sex - "asexuality" is a growing group. Look it up. I was concered my wife was possibly a part of that group.

 

To an extent we will have to agree to disagree - you are confusing sex with libido - they are not the same thing.

 

But I do agree she does not want sex with the CURRENT HIM - which is why he needs to make some changes - whatever they may be.

 

To just tell him the relationship is over - is I know just your opinion - but it's not very helpful imho.

 

I agree that changes have to be made on his end, but mostly to take back his own power/self respect.

 

SHE will not change unless she thinks she will lose him because of this.

 

The only real progress to be made is if she starts putting in some effort, and that won't happen unless she thinks she will actually lose him over this. She knows that he will never leave, so she has zero incentive to do ANYTHING.

 

Stalemate.

 

The reason your ideas will help is because she will think he is growing distant and preparing to leave - which echoes exactly what I just said.

[JamesM]

What if she does realize she’s been negligent towards your need for physical intimacy, and again makes a genuine effort (out of love and caring for you) to bridge that gag and come to some compromise in regard to that area. Might this niggling notion you have that she might only be doing it “to keep you happy” get in the way of any step she takes in your direction, and therefore undermine any real chance for recovery the two of you might have?

 

Good questions.

 

If she does it out of love and makes a genuine effort, then I think I can respect that and accept that...if the love is genuine. The niggling notion might be that it is not out of love but of the far of losing what she has.

 

Yes, if I make it an issue, then it could undermine any recovery.

 

If you’ve even thought that far ahead, what do you think it would take from your wife to convince you that she was having sex because she ‘loved’ you, rather than out of coercion or obligation??

 

Love can mean two things in this case. One is when she has sex because of her love for me. The second is when she has sex as an expression of that love. The difference in reality is big. However, if it is done from the first one, I can accept that, but if this is all it is...it will never be exciting for her, and then the act will be all about me. I enjoy it more when it is about an expression of my love to her, but knowing that she does not enjoy it that way, then I cannot enjoy it as fully as I could either.

 

How can I feel that it is a genuine expression of love to me rather than having sex to only give me satisfaction?

 

First, she would have discovered why she has no libido. Simply pursuing me for sex tonight or another night with nothing else having changed, then I will be suspect. If she gets say, tested for hormone levels and discovers a problem, then this alone will convince me that it is physical. If she changes shifts and is different, then perhaps this will be the issue. At this point, an underlying fear I have is that she does not love me as deeply as she once did. This would need to be eliminated.

 

Second, her actions will tell me alot. For instance, any guy with their wife should have an idea whether she is passionate. Yes, women can fake it, but not every time. As with my wife...she cannot fake it the whole time. If she wants it to be a quickie, then I know that it is for me and not an attempt for her to enjoy it. While that is okay now and then, it is not something that can be fun for both of us. BTW...that is pretty much how it HAS been for the past few years. Even though she shows enjoyment, it is not done as an expression of her love so that I can express my love to her, but simply so that I can be satisfied. That is one example. When she wants an orgasm, then that is a very telling sign.

 

Third, it must last for more than a few weeks or months. Since the last time was for four months, then if she will convince me this time...it will take a longer time...like for the marriage. (Obviously, we still would have our ups and downs.) I believe three years ago was a time that she convinced herself that she wanted me sexually because she felt she needed to "capture" me again. Once things settled back into a groove, then she lost interest.

 

Having said all that, I will not play the skeptic and cynic. I will honor each attempt as genuine. I will "reward" her with as much niceness as I can. Even if she begins some night with no other change, I will recognize that this is a sign that she either loves me or cares deeply for me.It would be no different than me doing something for her that she knows is a sacrifice for me because it is not as pleasurable for me as it is her (for instance, the many times I massage her shoulders and neck...and no, that doesn't lead into sex). Yet if she does not pursue her lack of interest further, then I know that this is simply an attempt (as said before) to quiet me for awhile.

[Phateless]

James - you cannot put this marriage back together by yourself. She has to be willing to match your effort, and she obviously is not. This whole thing is sad, but at this point I think you are keeping yourself here. You have refused tons and tons of good advice and seem determined to stick to your own original convictions. If you want to change the situation, you have to change something about the way you're handling it.

[EnigmaXOXO]

Thanks for taking the time to explain that so well. I was a bit concerned that all the hurt feelings, self-doubt and just plain ol’ awkwardness this situation has created for the both of you might make it all that more difficult for you to eventually pull it back together again.

 

I may be overly optimistic (or hopeful) but I am really pulling for your marriage and your family. More importantly, for your happiness and well-being as both a couple and individuals.

[silktricks]

I have seen some of you bring up the word "responsibility" several times. How exactly does she make herself responsible for her libido when she has none? That is one of the keys that James needs to come to terms with - she isn't responsible. It's just nature being cruel - whether it be her past, her present or whatever it's not something women do on purpose (generally!).

 

Anything she does try would still not actually change her libido - it would all be "faked" - this might be nice for James occasionally but I don't think he wants that - he wants his wife to natually have a libido again.

She doesn't have "responsibility" for the fact she has a low libido, true. However, she does have responsibility for working at making her husband happy. She promised to do that when she married him.

 

Therefore, it becomes her responsibility to try resolve the why's of herself. It is her responsibility to make dr appts, to be introspective, to find an IC - to RESOLVE the problem --- even if the problem ends up being that she no longer loves James.

 

It's easy to say that she has no control over the lack of libido, but she does have control over what she does ABOUT the lack of libido and how it affects her husband and her marriage. Just saying "I don't feel it, therefore don't bug me about it anymore" is certainly not showing love and consideration toward her husband.

[JamesM]

James - you cannot put this marriage back together by yourself. She has to be willing to match your effort, and she obviously is not.

 

And I told her that. I have tried to change but obviously cannot. She must take the initiative if she feels that her marriage and I are worth it.

 

Thanks for taking the time to explain that so well.

 

I may be overly optimistic (or hopeful) but I am really pulling for your marriage and your family. More importantly, for your happiness and well-being as both a couple and individuals.

 

You are welcome and thank you.

 

I do have some hope left, or this thread would not have happened or still be going. While it is almost gone, I have not given up yet. However, if her response is nil to mild, then my hope will be gone.

 

She doesn't have "responsibility" for the fact she has a low libido, true. However, she does have responsibility for working at making her husband happy. She promised to do that when she married him.

 

Therefore, it becomes her responsibility to try resolve the why's of herself. It is her responsibility to make dr appts, to be introspective, to find an IC - to RESOLVE the problem --- even if the problem ends up being that she no longer loves James.

 

It's easy to say that she has no control over the lack of libido, but she does have control over what she does ABOUT the lack of libido and how it affects her husband and her marriage. Just saying "I don't feel it, therefore don't bug me about it anymore" is certainly not showing love and consideration toward her husband.

 

This is well said and I wanted it to be read again.

 

Thank you.

[tnhusband]

She doesn't have "responsibility" for the fact she has a low libido, true. However, she does have responsibility for working at making her husband happy. She promised to do that when she married him.

 

Therefore, it becomes her responsibility to try resolve the why's of herself. It is her responsibility to make dr appts, to be introspective, to find an IC - to RESOLVE the problem --- even if the problem ends up being that she no longer loves James.

 

It's easy to say that she has no control over the lack of libido, but she does have control over what she does ABOUT the lack of libido and how it affects her husband and her marriage. Just saying "I don't feel it, therefore don't bug me about it anymore" is certainly not showing love and consideration toward her husband.

 

 

If it's a medical problem then there is usually no quick fix (yet) - but agree it should be at least eliminated.

 

I totally understand why everyone always comes back to having HER change. I did that for years with my wife. But the problem is that method is not working for his wife. No matter how you spin it she is not going to just make herself change - she can't. And she can't even try to figure out what's wrong as she feels fine. She's happy. She's aware of his unhappiness but she can't change how she feels.

 

IC or MC will probably not help as it won't actually help increase her libido. It might help her come to see how its hurting and frustrating her husband. Then what? He's been telling her for this years. Hearing from a third party does not help - it can actually hurt as now she feels bad, worthless, more pressure.

 

James all I wanted to do was tell you what I did (as best I can). It seemed to work for me so I am a believer in it. I guess what finally convinced me to try it was my other options:

 

1. Keep trying the same things over and over and over again - not working

2. Cheat - not what I wanted

3. Leave/divorce - not what I wanted

4. Live with it - not what I wanted

 

5. Change me - no real costs involved, no time line, doubtful it would make things worse, something I had not tried before, no more talks/fights, no more expectations.

 

Again - good luck.

[65tr6]

I Reinvent yourself and see what happens. Be the man you were 20 years ago.

 

I'm telling you it works!

 

tn, I agree with what you said except the last statement. James does not have to go back to what he was 20 years ago. In fact, he can create the new him that his wife wants to see him as.

 

James, if something that you tried did not work for the last several years then it is time to do something totally different. Easier to start with you than expecting from your wife.

 

Heck, dont expect anything from your wife. Do it because you want to and if your wife wants to come along for a ride, that is even better.