"If you want sex, then you will have to get it somewhere else."

[norajane]

What I need from her most is....the feeling that this is OUR problem and not just MINE. As of now, I think maybe she is getting that. Where that leads...who knows.

 

But leaving before I know is not where I am at. If she lost that love, then carhill's suggestion of counseling is the next attempt. However, if we attend counseling and discover that the doctor finds low testosterone levels, then we will have missed the boat.

 

If she discovers that she simply lost her love for me, then we have a decision to make. Counseling or leaving.

 

I asked you this in my previous post...why has it taken both of you this long to get to the point of considering counseling, hormones, or even a genuine and honest discussion?

 

I'm also at a loss to understand how an issue that you've been discussing on LS for two years only garnered 25 minutes of discussion between you last night.

[Juniper22]

"Out of curiosity, does anyone think i should keep trying?"

 

But this is what I was meaning. If you already know divorce is out of the question, and you've tried most everything it seems, lots of perspectives have been given, then maybe that's the problem. Maybe you're trying to hard, to figure all of this out.

 

I'm not saying give up, but maybe you should give your mind from trying to figure it all out, a rest. No matter what others perspectives might be, (and its good that you get them) I'm sure its still draining for you. And even though many "perspectives" might be good, I would think sometimes it could leave you even more confused.

[giotto]

I think exploring possible medical reasons and MC are logical "next steps"... I did mention hormone levels to my wife once, and she looked at me like saying... "you know it's all in my head!"...

[carhill]

James, are you a 'go with the flow' kinda guy? Every subject is broached carefully? Every meeting can be put off for tomorrow? Every issue can be resolved later?

 

From reading your posts, I get the sense that, in your mind, there is always another day and another time and another place. My problem, one I worked on in MC, was that I got overwhelmed with issues facing me and would do nothing. I learned how to eat the elephant one bite at a time; each day take one positive action towards the goal. No matter how unpleasant the potential was, I'd eat one nibble each day. Things like proactively making (or keeping) appointments. Meeting with lawyer. Going to court. Reading LS (for therapy). Broaching unpleasant subjects with my wife. Each day, at least one thing got done (regarding our marriage issues). That still goes on during the divorce. I do one thing, then I feel good and decide whether I want to do anything further.

 

We often say here that we have control only over ourselves; our perspective; our direction; our actions. Looking forward to reading about yours

[JamesM]

I asked you this in my previous post...why has it taken both of you this long to get to the point of considering counseling, hormones, or even a genuine and honest discussion?

 

First off, we have had more than one discussion on this subject. Most have led to ending in angry words. And I am just as guilty as her. However, there have been some genuine discussions....just no solutions. I hadn't meant to do it last night but it happened.

 

Second, this is not her first time at suggesting that it is hormones. That is why she set up an appointment back in July for two weeks ago. She has put it off for whatever reason in the past. However, I pretty much told her then that this needed to be looked at. The discussion last night did not dwell upon it as much.

 

Third, over the past few years, I have discussed with her many possible reasons....health, pain, depression, meds, stress, me, food allergies, and more. I have brought up different solutions to each. Even though her health problems have improved thanks to me....this did not result in a change.

 

Fourth, there may be nothing different about this discussion either, but I think I left it quite plainly that I have given up. I cannot change her.

 

It is entirely possible that this will continue and lead to nothing.

 

I'm also at a loss to understand how an issue that you've been discussing on LS for two years only garnered 25 minutes of discussion between you last night.

 

She was at work. As SHE said, "I want to continue this discussion when we get out later this week." And that is because we will not be seeing much of each other for the next couple days.

[JamesM]

James, are you a 'go with the flow' kinda guy? Every subject is broached carefully? Every meeting can be put off for tomorrow? Every issue can be resolved later?

 

No, not really. However, some issues can be resolved at a later date. Choosing to quickly solve some leads to hasty decisions and no real solutions. I come from businesses that need immediate decisions.

 

I have learned to ask many questions and pose the problem to get ideas. Then I take the suggestions, analyze them, and decide which to use and when.

 

Usually this subject is not broached carefully. It ends up coming up unexpectedly...as it did last night.

 

From reading your posts, I get the sense that, in your mind, there is always another day and another time and another place.

 

And this can be very true. This time there will be.

 

We often say here that we have control only over ourselves; our perspective; our direction; our actions. Looking forward to reading about yours

 

I think I have given my perspective many times here and on other threads. And as for control of our actions and direction...we do. Sometimes doing nothing IS a plan.

 

Currently, I am waiting to see how serious she is. That is the plan.

[EnigmaXOXO]

We have a day alone this week for a date that I was planned last week. She is looking forward to it.

 

Oh, thank goodness!!

 

I didn’t want to derail your thread by asking... but I was wondering when the last time was when the two of you had a chance to cut loose from the kids, the careers, and all the distractions to enjoy a little alone time together. A day ain’t enough given everything (and everyone) the two of you are juggling. You need at least a week!

[Phateless]

I do not think she is cruel. She feels a need to change thing but no desire. Again, think of when you are hungry and think of when you are not.

 

 

 

Insisting on not sharing a bed does nothing. And don't let it break your heart. (Funny thing is...those were her words..."It breaks my heart that you are hurting so much." Okay someone will start a post with that comment, so I will wait to continue that thought until then.)

 

I honestly feel at this point that I have chosen to stay. This talk did that for me...it made it clear that I want to stay longer. It made it clear to me that getting sex outside of marriage is not an option yet either.

 

1. Divorce is not an option.

2. Outside sex is not an option yet.

3. Fixing the marriage even after this long still feels right and possible (albeit a small amount) in my gut.

 

Does fixing my marriage seem weak or "the easy way out?" So be it on people's opinions. For me, the easiest way out is not divorce, nor fixing the marriage. By far the easiest way out is getting sex elsewhere.

 

The question remains despite the "after game" analysis is...will this produce results?

 

This remains to be seen. I am fairly confident that it will produce short term results at least for maybe a few months or a year. But unless, she gets to the real reason WHY she has no desire for sex, then it will not last.

 

If you are AFRAID to make this a confrontation or refuse to force her to make a decision it will stay this way forever. She has no incentive to change. There are no consequences.

 

You have cut off your own balls and handed her all of the power.

 

If you want things to change, she needs to know that you will leave if they don't.

 

Right now she knows that she can do whatever she wants and you'll stay.

[tnhusband]

James - like I said in a prior post - I have been where you are. You seem like a caring and intelligent man - I feel like I am caring and somewhat intelligent as well. But until I did a complete 180 on my attitude towards this issue within my marriage I was a complete dumbass.

 

I can't help reading all the ideas and responses and knowing how everything everyone is suggesting is probably going to fail. It all failed with my wife.

 

The problem is that you don't know "what you don't know" - when it comes to why your wife has no libido. In my situation that was extremely frustrating as I wanted to "fix" everything/her. But I had nothing tangible to actually fix.

 

If you threaten to leave her and she gives you more sex - you won't be happy will you? You just want her to desire you. To want sex with you.

 

Ditto for threatening to cheat, for having scheduled sex etc. Manipulating her for more sex still doesn't change her actual libido does it?

 

If and when you rule out purely medical causes then you have only YOU to change - I mean that sincerely as it worked for me.

 

Nothing turns her on right now. You have to find out what does even if it means going outside of your comfort zone. So concentrate on changing YOU - not her - I wish it was easier to explain.

[Toodamnpragmatic]

So you only want posts from other people who have NOT solved this problem? I think those posts are great. They are also high on empathy and avoidant of any consequence based behavior - the only behavior that might improve things.

 

So is the goal is to momentarily feel better by immersing in similar stories by other people? Or is it to actually try to solve something?

 

If this is how you treat your wife - total silence puntuated by the occassional ineffective outburst, no wonder you are developing carpal tunnel syndrome.

 

Mem11363..... Trust me I'm happy you have a wonderful relationship and many of your posts are truly helpful, intelligent and ask the right questions.

 

However you also repeat yourself over and over and continue to post how successful your marriage is and bang on the same points, which include fairly detailed (graphic) explanation as to what you two do. Trust me, we are all happy, and somewhat envious of you. However no two people/couples are alike.

 

As said your questions, wisdom and comments are very good.... It is the repetitive part that i find funny.

 

Now why did you make those comments (untrue) about what you perceive my marriage as being (and reference to Carpal Tunnel Syndrome)?

 

BTW, what is so wrong with masturbation or soft porn, which you seem to have an issue with and rather want to proudly explain your ability to say no to temptation, a BJ, or a message that leads to release?

[Mr. Lucky]

My son (14) went to bed at 4 o'clock in the morning during the summer holidays - every single night - and his bedroom is next to ours!

When you have kids, the greatest aphrodisiacs are a lock for the door and a nice music system to drown out any noises ...

 

Mr. Lucky

[JamesM]

If you are AFRAID to make this a confrontation or refuse to force her to make a decision it will stay this way forever. She has no incentive to change. There are no consequences.

 

You have cut off your own balls and handed her all of the power.

 

If you want things to change, she needs to know that you will leave if they don't.

 

Right now she knows that she can do whatever she wants and you'll stay.

 

Forcing her to change out of fear is not a change due to love. It will not build a lasting marriage. I gave her an ultimatum once and it gave me four months of great sex. Fear is a motivator but only for the short term.

 

If the ultimatum of divorce were to be delivered (which I do not think is an option, remember? ), then I have no doubt that change would occur for a short time.

 

If she has no incentive for change due to love for me, then we know what the problem is, don't we?

 

 

If you threaten to leave her and she gives you more sex - you won't be happy will you? You just want her to desire you. To want sex with you.

 

Correct. And using force as suggested by some or the ultimatum of divorce by others will not secure that. Having her face the reality of where her marriage is at....this is the only way. The question is...is she aware of that? And while I know I will get a number of answers to this, only she really can answer this.

 

Ditto for threatening to cheat, for having scheduled sex etc. Manipulating her for more sex still doesn't change her actual libido does it?

 

NO, it makes her desperate but not filled with desire. It gives her a passion from losing her life, but it does not create a passion from love. It gives her motivation to change, but it creates a resentment of me that will not foster love.

 

If and when you rule out purely medical causes then you have only YOU to change - I mean that sincerely as it worked for me.

 

Because I know her medical history, this still is a real possibility, but she needs to pursue it.

 

Nothing turns her on right now. You have to find out what does even if it means going outside of your comfort zone. So concentrate on changing YOU - not her - I wish it was easier to explain.

 

Again, if you could repeat or explain what you mean.

[JamesM]

Oh, thank goodness!!

 

I didn’t want to derail your thread by asking... but I was wondering when the last time was when the two of you had a chance to cut loose from the kids, the careers, and all the distractions to enjoy a little alone time together. A day ain’t enough given everything (and everyone) the two of you are juggling. You need at least a week!

 

Thank you.

 

This is part of our problem for an emotional connection. But it still doesn't change her lack of sexual desire.

We have had some great days out that never brought about sex. And no, I don't grade our time alone based on the sex that may or may not occur, but if she needs an emotional connection to me, then it has not proven to be related to any date nights.

[JamesM]

However no two people/couples are alike.

 

 

This is very true.

 

 

However, having said that, I do find that others have similar experiences that may or may not relate. My "job" when I read responses is to decide how each can apply to my situation.

[carhill]

TBH, I'd like to see you get angry in MC. I'd like to see that hurt come out. Unpleasant things are part of life and they are part of love. My advice, when you have your alone time this week, is to make it as positive an experience as possible and, only then, tell her about the appointment you've made for MC. "I want to continue on this path of intimacy and I want us to have some professional help. I made an appointment for XXX. We can do this. Arrange your schedule".

 

This is what I call one bite of the elephant. She's not having sex with you but, by arranging her schedule for MC, she's prioritizing your marriage. This is very important, IMO. Critical. Crucial.

 

Let's see some feelings here...

[Mr. Lucky]

I gave her an ultimatum once and it gave me four months of great sex.

Then remind me again why an ultimatum is a bad idea ??? Isn't it possible that those 4 months were good for her too?

 

Mr. Lucky

[Phateless]

Forcing her to change out of fear is not a change due to love. It will not build a lasting marriage. I gave her an ultimatum once and it gave me four months of great sex. Fear is a motivator but only for the short term.

 

If the ultimatum of divorce were to be delivered (which I do not think is an option, remember? ), then I have no doubt that change would occur for a short time.

 

If she has no incentive for change due to love for me, then we know what the problem is, don't we?

 

 

 

Correct. And using force as suggested by some or the ultimatum of divorce by others will not secure that. Having her face the reality of where her marriage is at....this is the only way. The question is...is she aware of that? And while I know I will get a number of answers to this, only she really can answer this.

 

 

 

NO, it makes her desperate but not filled with desire. It gives her a passion from losing her life, but it does not create a passion from love. It gives her motivation to change, but it creates a resentment of me that will not foster love.

 

 

 

Because I know her medical history, this still is a real possibility, but she needs to pursue it.

 

 

 

Again, if you could repeat or explain what you mean.

 

She DOESN'T have incentive to change for you out of love. If she did, this problem would have resolved itself by now.

 

That's my entire point.

[Juniper22]

Have you ever thought about letting her read some of your posts and replies on here?

 

I'm not saying it would solve anything, but maybe she could see how concerned others are for you, or maybe she could see the seriousness of it all?

[tnhusband]

She DOESN'T have incentive to change for you out of love. If she did, this problem would have resolved itself by now.

 

That's my entire point.

 

 

Phate - your theory is very common but based on research and my own experience it does not usually work. Any incentive based solution would end up with her "putting out" based on fear/reward etc. This is not a solution to increasing her libido.

 

I think most of us (including) James do not want that kind of sexual relationship - we want our spouses to actually like/want/think of sex etc.

[JamesM]

Then remind me again why an ultimatum is a bad idea ??? Isn't it possible that those 4 months were good for her too?

 

Mr. Lucky

 

It lasted only four months...perhaps that is why. And the fact that she was motivated by fear to quite a degree.

 

 

She DOESN'T have incentive to change for you out of love. If she did, this problem would have resolved itself by now.

 

That's my entire point.

 

But a motivation not out of love will be useless in a marriage that should be built on love. Why waste time with any ultimatum besides "Change or I am divorcing you."

 

My point is....the lack of desire is either physical or emotional. Either she discovers a reason due to hormones or third shift or medical or health, or she discovers her feelings for me.

 

The motivation to do so should NOT be one of fear. This will bring short term results but no long term satisfaction for either of us.

 

That is my point.

 

Have you ever thought about letting her read some of your posts and replies on here?

 

I'm not saying it would solve anything, but maybe she could see how concerned others are for you, or maybe she could see the seriousness of it all?

 

Yes. A number of times in the past. I know that it would give her a deeper understanding of me in many ways. And I know she loves to read my writing. She has many letters from me that she kept from our dating days. She has a book I wrote her (yes, literally a journal) about us and our marriage. This was done eight years ago.

 

The thing is...LS is my venting place. Ls is MY place. As soon as I reveal LS to her, then my days here are done. No post can written without the idea that she will read it. That does not mean I am hiding anything bad from her, but it means that I cannot freely write about my feelings without editing them for her.

 

So, I decided a couple of years ago, if it comes to that, then letting her read my life here will be a last resort....on my way out the door. (Well, not literally.)

 

Phate - your theory is very common but based on research and my own experience it does not usually work. Any incentive based solution would end up with her "putting out" based on fear/reward etc. This is not a solution to increasing her libido.

 

I think most of us (including) James do not want that kind of sexual relationship - we want our spouses to actually like/want/think of sex etc.

 

Well said...and thank you.

[norajane]

Phate - your theory is very common but based on research and my own experience it does not usually work. Any incentive based solution would end up with her "putting out" based on fear/reward etc. This is not a solution to increasing her libido.

 

I think most of us (including) James do not want that kind of sexual relationship - we want our spouses to actually like/want/think of sex etc.

 

I think what Phateless is saying is that her love for James is not enough of an incentive for her to change anything about her approach to their sex life, or to look harder for a resolution, if there is one.

 

If her love for James was more of an incentive, she would be the one planning special days away to revive the passion, she would be rushing to the doctor to rule out any possible physical cause, and she would be scheduling IC and MC appointments to try to learn more about why she has no desire to have sex with the man she loves, and to try to communicate with James about it without getting angry or washing her hands of the problem and telling him she just doesn't want it.

 

If her love for James were more of an incentive, it wouldn't have taken 7 years for her to even consider going to a doctor to check her hormone levels.

 

So if her love for James won't make her budge, then perhaps understanding that her marriage is in deep trouble, to the point of James thinking about cheating or divorce, will make her take this on as her problem to help resolve too instead of telling James to pound sand.

[JamesM]

I think what Phateless is saying is that her love for James is not enough of an incentive for her to change anything about her approach to their sex life, or to look harder for a resolution, if there is one.

 

If her love for James was more of an incentive, she would be the one planning special days away to revive the passion, she would be rushing to the doctor to rule out any possible physical cause, and she would be scheduling IC and MC appointments to try to learn more about why she has no desire to have sex with the man she loves, and to try to communicate with James about it without getting angry or washing her hands of the problem and telling him she just doesn't want it.

 

If her love for James were more of an incentive, it wouldn't have taken 7 years for her to even consider going to a doctor to check her hormone levels.

 

So if her love for James won't make her budge, then perhaps understanding that her marriage is in deep trouble, to the point of James thinking about cheating or divorce, will make her take this on as her problem to help resolve too instead of telling James to pound sand.

 

Well said, and I agree. (I didn't get this from Phateless' posts however if he did mean this.)

 

Perhaps her motivation may be a bit of fear in that she (hopefully) is getting a wake up call to make a change. But we will both agree that if any change is to be permanent, it must also be motivated by love.

[tnhusband]

 

 

Again, if you could repeat or explain what you mean.

 

James - I will try but I don't want to mislead you by coming across as somesort of educated sex/marriage counselor.

 

The way I wrapped my mind around was loosely like this:

 

1. My libido triggers are different than hers.

2. What are they for her - what makes her think of sex - in a good way?

3. We have been married for 10 years - the dynamics of our relationship had changed/matured.

4. When we were first together - there was tremendous passion - sex was something we both wanted all the time. Typical for early in a relationship.

5. When we got married - we still had the passion - it was now marriage sex but still passionate with quanity and quality.

6. After 10 years we have both seen each other in some very non-sexual/turn-off type situations. Going to the bathroom in front of each other, throwing-up, crying, etc etc.

7. After 10 years I had become her rock, her best friend, a father and a good husband. BUT I was no longer her lover, I was someone she no longer thought of as attractive in a passionate way. I had not changed much physically but in her head I guess I was just too nice. To much a member of the family. I hope that makes sense.

 

So I decided I would change some things about ME. This part could be ANYTHING depending on YOU but here's what I did:

 

I stopped whining about sex - definite turn-off for her.

I stopped having "the talks" - they weren't helping - either made her feel bad or we would have a big stupid fight.

 

Started working out - I don't have abs of steel or anything but I'm a lot more active. I think she would love it if I had abs and some more muscle tone - something I'm still working on. I think she likes the masculinity of fitness.

 

Stopped whining to her about my work and made some changes there.

 

I stopped being such a nice-guy. I didn't become a jerk but I stopped being such a nice husband.

 

I know some guys will say that they do whatever they want anyway - and I'm sure that's true for some - but remember this is just me.

 

I did all these nice things thinking - this will put her in the mood! I was totally wrong. Being nice was not turning her on. Sure she appreciated me being nice - but that made me a helpful roommate - not a man she desired to fck.

 

These are not absolutes for me but here's some of the things I know I changed:

 

1. I would not ask her where she wanted to go out to eat - I would decide.

2. I would not ask her what she thought I should wear - don't know how I got into that habit.

3. I become much more involved with disciplining the kids - instead of always being the good guy.

4. If I was sick I would not be such a baby.

5. If there was a family issue to decide on I became less wish-washy.

6. I did chores for ME and the good of the family - not because I thought she might want sex. She is not turned on by a lazy couch potato (who is?)

etc etc etc. - there were other things but I think you will get the gist of it.

 

I guess at heart I know I'm a people-pleaser type personality. My wife loves me and married me as I'm a nice decent guy. But after 10 years I was no longer a guy she was passionate about.

 

I did not tell her about these changes - I just started being a more assertive person. It wasn't over-night but it really has worked.

 

Plus I am a happier person becuse of the changes - even without the change in her libido. So even if it hadn't worked it was a positive thing. My career has even improved.

 

Not to be brag or be too graphic but a story for you - after making some of these changes (about 2 years ago) - we had a situation where she commented on some hot guys ass at a restaurant. Not totally off-base for her but as it was sexual in nature it was a good thing to hear.

 

When we got home I pushed her face down on the bed, ripped of her panties and had my way with her while I told her how she wished the hot guy was here having a 3-some etc etc. It totally rocked and she loved it. She loved me being aggressive with her. She loved me not being jealous of her comment about the other guy - fantasies can be your friend (she said for years she had none!) The whole manliness and my high level of security with our relationship really does it for her.

 

She even told me later she told this story to a couple of her girlfriends - and both were like hell yea they would love it if their husbands would be like that sometimes.

 

We are now going places in our relationship and our sexlife that neither of us knew were possible. It's not perfect - we still have our ups and downs - trust me.

 

But we have gone from lackluster sex 2-3 times a month. To adventurous, passionate sex 1-2 times a week. I'm not going to lie and say we are completely in sync sexually - but we are a lot closer that ever before. She brings things up she would like to try, surprises me with outfits - not because I threatened to leave etc but because her libido came back.

 

It seems to me that maybe women turn off their libido when things get comfortable - and they don't go looking elsewhere (I know some do) - they are just content despite their husbands discontent but they can't change YOU just like you can't change them.

 

Good luck to you.

[tnhusband]

I think what Phateless is saying is that her love for James is not enough of an incentive for her to change anything about her approach to their sex life, or to look harder for a resolution, if there is one.

 

You would think that. I thought that. But the libido is not a simple thing to fix. You can't just make it better. My wife now admits she knew I was suffering but she could not make herself want something she did not want. She wasn't thinking - hmm how can I make him unhappy? It's way depper than that.

 

LOVE is definitely not enough. Or relationships with sex problems would not be in the millions.

 

Please folks - wrap your head around this - she CANNOT fix her problem. He CANNOT fix her problem.

[Mr. Lucky]

It lasted only four months...perhaps that is why. And the fact that she was motivated by fear to quite a degree.

Fear of hurting you? Fear of the marriage failing? I could put a healthy spin on the motivating factor behind either of those.

 

If your wife had a different manifestation of the issues in her past - say a drinking problem - then the negative impact of her acting out would be more clearly defined. And your responses would travel the arc from "this is a concern to me" initially to "this is destroying our family and marriage" at some point. How is this different? The fact, as good a guy as you seem to be, that you're here on LS openly ruminating about hookers and affairs supports the notion that your relationship (as separated from your M, which I understand isn't in question) is at a tipping point.

 

At some point, she stops getting credit for what you hope to be and starts being viewed in the here and now. What has she done in the last 12 months to address this?

 

Mr. Lucky