"If you want sex, then you will have to get it somewhere else."

[Phateless]

And I told her that. I have tried to change but obviously cannot. She must take the initiative if she feels that her marriage and I are worth it.

 

So why do you continue to put yourself through this? She has made herself perfectly clear. Do you really think she'll change her mind?

[65tr6]

double post. sorry

[JamesM]

5. Change me - no real costs involved, no time line, doubtful it would make things worse, something I had not tried before, no more talks/fights, no more expectations.

 

Again - good luck.

 

So by changing me, then she will want to have sex with me? And if she doesn't, then I am still me with no sex?

 

BTW, I have heard you say it over and over again that this change is what did it, but maybe I missed it.....did SHE say that your change is what caused her to be more interested in sex? Or is it the correlation...ie you changed and she became interested in you? Because this may or may not be a connection. She may have simply decided one day that she needs to focus on her marriage. It may have had nothing to do with you.

 

James does not have to go back to what he was 20 years ago. In fact, he can create the new him that his wife wants to see him as.

 

James, if something that you tried did not work for the last several years then it is time to do something totally different. Easier to start with you than expecting from your wife.

 

Heck, dont expect anything from your wife. Do it because you want to and if your wife wants to come along for a ride, that is even better.

 

SO, again...change me so wife has sex with me? I have no problem changing if I am doing something wrong that causes her to not want sex, but changing for the sake of changing makes no sense. The assumption is that if I change, then she will like me more. Fact is...she may like me less and look for anothe rman.

 

And so I change for me....I am still a man without sex.

 

Besides, if you do not think I have not made changes in appearance, clothing, attitudes, parenting, etc. then I guess we could list them all and show you that changing me has not worked either.

 

Not saying it won't, but in this one I am with Phateless....I can change all I want, but is SHE does not take an initiative to save her marriage, then it will avail me nothing.

 

So why do you continue to put yourself through this? She has made herself perfectly clear. Do you really think she'll change her mind?

 

Because of two reasons that rank highest: Love for her (and yes, I have alot for her), and commitment to a vow I said 19 years ago. Until I am convinced that she will not honor hers, then I cannot dishonor mine. (And even if she dishonors hers, then there is love).

 

Do I think she will change? I think the answer has to be yes, or I would do something else with my time.

 

When I change me, then it will have nothing to do with her nor any expectations of her doing anything for me. And if she does change at that point, then I am afraid that it will be too late.

[65tr6]

When I change me, then it will have nothing to do with her nor any expectations of her doing anything for me. And if she does change at that point, then I am afraid that it will be too late.

 

EXACTLY. You are doing this for you and not for her. You are not changing because you want more sex.

 

And why is that you think you don't want to change ? (you think you are darn close to a perfect man ?).

 

So your home totally filled with love, no angry outbursts, no disrespectful judgements, you are a perfect husband/dad and all you are missing is sex ? Tell me there is nothing you can do to improve on in the next 6 months, one year.

 

Yes you will be without sex while you change. How is that any different from what you get now ? (sorry don't mean to rub it in). And you are doing this not for sex but because you have bigger goals in mind. In the process it is possible that you will get your wife to notice you but then again DON'T expect.

 

And yes there are no guarantees in life and this could lead no where. But alteast you know you are now a changed man (and even more wise) and possibly have more answers by then.

[Trialbyfire]

"Show me you love me and see me as someone who's sexually attractive. I can't live like this, feeling rejected all the time."

[65tr6]

"Show me you love me and see me as someone who's sexually attractive. I can't live like this, feeling rejected all the time."

 

isn't that setting himself up for a failure ?

[Trialbyfire]

isn't that setting himself up for a failure ?

No, it's being wide open and honest about his feelings. If he wants some honesty from her, he has to be prepared to open right up. Vulnerability can be scary but if you consider that both divorce and extra-marital sex is on the table, you're not gambling away very much to be vulnerable, in contrast.

[Phateless]

James - WAKE UP! You are the only one honoring that vow and the love now. She has given up on you a long time ago. She won't even allow you to do all the work for her.

[tnhusband]

So by changing me, then she will want to have sex with me? And if she doesn't, then I am still me with no sex?

 

I don't know the answers but what have you got to lose at this point? Maybe you end up with a new motorcycle and some new biker friends.

 

BTW, I have heard you say it over and over again that this change is what did it, but maybe I missed it.....did SHE say that your change is what caused her to be more interested in sex? Or is it the correlation...ie you changed and she became interested in you? Because this may or may not be a connection. She may have simply decided one day that she needs to focus on her marriage. It may have had nothing to do with you.

 

She does not specifically know why her libdo increased. She does not know that I specifically made any changes to help with her libido. She's obviously aware of the changes but she does not think it was to help with her libido. And you are correct it may have had nothing to do with anything I did - but after years of a lackluster sexlife - after a few months of making some changes it improved - I just can't help but think it was the reason.

 

SO, again...change me so wife has sex with me? I have no problem changing if I am doing something wrong that causes her to not want sex, but changing for the sake of changing makes no sense. The assumption is that if I change, then she will like me more. Fact is...she may like me less and look for anothe rman.

 

And so I change for me....I am still a man without sex.

 

Besides, if you do not think I have not made changes in appearance, clothing, attitudes, parenting, etc. then I guess we could list them all and show you that changing me has not worked either.

 

Not saying it won't, but in this one I am with Phateless....I can change all I want, but is SHE does not take an initiative to save her marriage, then it will avail me nothing.

 

I know where you are coming from - I had these same thoughts and doubts. It's not about liking you more - she already likes/loves you I'm sure. She's probably attracted to you. But subconsciously her libido has been buried by years of a happy marriage.

 

And I doubt you are doing something wrong. That's not how it works - it's deeper than that.

 

To be clear - the changes you make to yourself will probably not be any of the things I changed. You have to find out/figure out what to change. Sounds like you have already made some changes - you just have not found something that helps.

 

As for her taking the initiative (which probably won't happen) - explain to me what you think she should do? I doubt you have one thing that she could do that would help her actual libido. It might mean more sex but not a higher libido. Which ultimately is what I think you are wanting.

[Mr. Lucky]

"Show me you love me and see me as someone who's sexually attractive. I can't live like this, feeling rejected all the time."

Couldn't agree with this more. The constant rejection extracts a price from both parties. James' toll is well documented but his wife also loses the opportunity to express love for her spouse. Got to be hard on both of them...

 

Mr. Lucky

[65tr6]

No, it's being wide open and honest about his feelings.

 

I understand. I am all for it - openess and honesty. I don't think it is a big secret between the two of them as to what is missing in their life alteast from James' standpoint.

 

Let's say he does ask the question, what if she says, "I love you but I am not sexually attracted to you ?" (I thought James already ruled Divorce out as an option).

[Mr. Lucky]

Let's say he does ask the question, what if she says, "I love you but I am not sexually attracted to you ?" (I thought James already ruled Divorce out as an option).

Then I think that's when he logs on to Craigslist and starts perusing the ads...

 

Mr. Lucky

[EnigmaXOXO]

Then I think that's when he logs on to Craigslist and starts perusing the ads...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

:laugh:

 

Hey... That may not be such a bad idea. If all else fails, double your trouble! Once he’s found himself trying to juggle two or more women with daddy issues, the one he’s already got may not seem so bad after all.

 

I mean no disrespect towards your wife James... I’m just sayin’.

[Trialbyfire]

I understand. I am all for it - openess and honesty. I don't think it is a big secret between the two of them as to what is missing in their life alteast from James' standpoint.

 

Let's say he does ask the question, what if she says, "I love you but I am not sexually attracted to you ?" (I thought James already ruled Divorce out as an option).

I would respond to her as such:

 

"Is it that you're not sexually attracted to me or that you're not sexually attracted to anyone, at all?"

[Gerhard]

I read the first few posts of this thread and I think James is in an interesting dilemma. If his wife clearly says he may look elsewhere (think Cheryl's 10th anniversary gift to Larry in CYE), then he should do that and ask for her support in doing so. If he has a conscience about looking elsewhere and/or doing it with someone else, then he should either divorce his wife or plan on being celibate.

 

If his wife is not serious about him being able to go outside the marriage for sex, but still tells him it's OK, then he would be best advised to read his wife better and/or ask for her to write it down on paper. If my wife says something strange or makes an unusual request, I ask her to write it down. Usually she doesn't. I think you can gauge the seriousness of a verbal comment or request by whether or not the person is willing to put it on paper.

[JamesM]

EXACTLY. You are doing this for you and not for her. You are not changing because you want more sex.

 

And why is that you think you don't want to change ? (you think you are darn close to a perfect man ?).

 

I am not sure you get it. I have made changes. I have done them for me so that she would be more attracted to me. I have done them for me so that I feel better for myself.

 

No matter how you say it....the goal for your changes was to get more sex. "Change for yourself." But then...she begins to notice and wants sex. So under neath it all, as even said by tnhusband and you, the change is for sex.

 

Read what I said. When I go the route of changing for myself, then I will no longer expect or WANT sex from her. It will be about myself because I moved on.

 

What you continually suggest is semantics. Basically it is...focus on yourself and forget the sex that you are not getting, Then maybe you will get some. Essentially, since I cannot change her and she won't change, then I should become a wussy and pretend the problem doesn't exist.

 

"Show me you love me and see me as someone who's sexually attractive. I can't live like this, feeling rejected all the time."

 

Good statement. As I said before to her on the phone, "At this point I feel that you do not want sex because of me. I see no other option."

 

James - WAKE UP! You are the only one honoring that vow and the love now. She has given up on you a long time ago. She won't even allow you to do all the work for her.

 

Even as I consider other options, I cannot help but counter with....her failure to honor her vow does not give me the right to dishonor my own. Even if she cheated, this does not give me the right. It is still my choice.

 

Let's say he does ask the question, what if she says, "I love you but I am not sexually attracted to you ?" (I thought James already ruled Divorce out as an option).

 

Then I think that's when he logs on to Craigslist and starts perusing the ads...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

Thanks, Mr Lucky...once again for the laugh. Actually, there are safer places. But yes, that means.....

 

I would respond to her as such:

 

"Is it that you're not sexually attracted to me or that you're not sexually attracted to anyone, at all?"

 

And this question has been asked more than once. Her reply has always been that she feels no sexual attraction to anyone.

 

Can I believe it or is it that her switch is turned of because of me?

[Trialbyfire]

James, in a way, 65tr6 and I are role playing, with our last posts. Is this of interest to you? If not, I will stop.

[Trialbyfire]

And this question has been asked more than once. Her reply has always been that she feels no sexual attraction to anyone.

 

Can I believe it or is it that her switch is turned of because of me?

This is where I would, and where you've probably already, said:

 

"Why don't you feel any sexual attraction to anyone? That's a million dollar question that no one can fix, besides you. What are YOU going to do about it so our marriage can continue, in a manner that meets both our needs?"

[JamesM]

I took this one separately.

 

I don't know the answers but what have you got to lose at this point? Maybe you end up with a new motorcycle and some new biker friends.

 

As I said before, then I am moving on from my marriage...even if I am still married.

 

She does not specifically know why her libdo increased. She does not know that I specifically made any changes to help with her libido. She's obviously aware of the changes but she does not think it was to help with her libido. And you are correct it may have had nothing to do with anything I did - but after years of a lackluster sexlife - after a few months of making some changes it improved - I just can't help but think it was the reason.

 

THIS is why I cannot accept your method as having worked. You do not even know if it worked for you. She has not credited any changes in you as the reason. You have more evidence that she was turned on by the fantasy of having sex with another man.

 

There is actually no reason to believe it had anything to do with her change. You simply decided that it must be the reason, because IMO you WANTED it to be the reason. If this was a study to see if a drug worked for a disease, it would be considered very weak at best. One would have to know what else happened between the two of you, in her life, in your life, and in your community. I see no connection.

 

 

To be clear - the changes you make to yourself will probably not be any of the things I changed. You have to find out/figure out what to change. Sounds like you have already made some changes - you just have not found something that helps.

 

See...this proves again that your changing (or my changing) is really to get more sex. Again, if I change for myself, then I am no longer caring if she changes. And at that point, most likely, I am also changing for someone else or to get someone else.

 

So either I change for her to get more sex, or I change for me because I no longer care for her.

 

As for her taking the initiative (which probably won't happen) - explain to me what you think she should do? I doubt you have one thing that she could do that would help her actual libido. It might mean more sex but not a higher libido. Which ultimately is what I think you are wanting.

 

East to answer but then I am sharing bedroom secrets. Not happening. I KNOW when she is passionate. I know when she suddenly desires sex. It is about how she comes after me. In fact, she comes after me. She wakes me up in the middle of the night because she wants me. She takes me where ever I am. It is how she kisses me. It is how she looks at me. It is how she touches me. And on and on I could go.

 

I don't think I can affect her libido at this point either, because either it is related to: past abuse, physical problem, or a lack of physical attraction to me. It is up to her...as I have told her.

 

In conclusion, your method that you want me to follow has not been proven to work. And anyone reading your method would be confused as to whether you actually changed for yourself or if your motivation was to simply become a confident guy and PRETEND to no longer care about sex with your wife. If anything could be credited to your method, it would be that she thought you no longer cared so she began to care. But even still, she does not give that credit, and honestly, in that case, my wife would tell me if that were the reason...as I am guessing your wife would, too, if she knew.

[JamesM]

This is where I would, and where you've probably already, said:

 

"Why don't you feel any sexual attraction to anyone? That's a million dollar question that no one can fix, besides you. What are YOU going to do about it so our marriage can continue, in a manner that meets both our needs?"

 

And the answer is "I don't know." Or "I think it is because of (usually a physical reason)."

 

As you or someone said, she needs to address the issue head on and solve the problem. As noted on here many times over through my posts, I have tried and found no answers that worked successfully.

 

Hence, I give her the ball. If she deems her marriage and husband worthy of it, then the problem will be solved. Asking her and prodding her will do nothing, and in fact will be counterproductive. I wait and them decide what to do.

[Trialbyfire]

And the answer is "I don't know." Or "I think it is because of (usually a physical reason)."

 

As you or someone said, she needs to address the issue head on and solve the problem. As noted on here many times over through my posts, I have tried and found no answers that worked successfully.

 

Hence, I give her the ball. If she deems her marriage and husband worthy of it, then the problem will be solved. Asking her and prodding her will do nothing, and in fact will be counterproductive. I wait and them decide what to do.

But this is where you can't let her off the hook so easily by backing off when she "doesn't know" or gives a lame excuse.

 

The next time this type of opportunity happens, is the time to hold her to her half of the responsibility, of making your marriage functional again.

 

If she says "I don't know", then you say, "That's no longer good enough. It's time for you to find out why. Consider IC because I can't live like this anymore."

 

If she says "It's because [insert physical excuse]", then you say "That's no longer good enough since you're a healthy [insert age] year old woman whereby each time we have sex, there's something physically wrong with you. It's time to see a sexuality expert to find out by medical means, what's wrong with your libido. Perhaps you have a low testosterone level and there are treatments for this issue. I can't live like this anymore.".

[norajane]

I believe three years ago was a time that she convinced herself that she wanted me sexually because she felt she needed to "capture" me again. Once things settled back into a groove, then she lost interest.

 

Why did she feel she needed to capture you? Had you become elusive, distant, seemingly no longer captive? Why was she uncertain of you then?

[JamesM]

But this is where you can't let her off the hook so easily by backing off when she "doesn't know" or gives a lame excuse.

 

The next time this type of opportunity happens, is the time to hold her to her half of the responsibility, of making your marriage functional again.

 

If she says "I don't know", then you say, "That's no longer good enough. It's time for you to find out why. Consider IC because I can't live like this anymore."

 

If she says "It's because [insert physical excuse]", then you say "That's no longer good enough since you're a healthy [insert age] year old woman whereby each time we have sex, there's something physically wrong with you. It's time to see a sexuality expert to find out by medical means, what's wrong with your libido. Perhaps you have a low testosterone level and there are treatments for this issue. I can't live like this anymore.".

 

Perhaps I did not make myself clear, but in our last phone conversation I left it with her. If it is hormonal, then follow through with the doctor appointment. Even if it is me, then let me know. Whatever the reason, she needs to change herself...I cannot. I did make it clear that whatever the reason I cannot change her. She knows how I have tried...she admitted to that.

 

I told her plainly that expecting me to be faithful while she desires celibacy is not fair. Both are cheating. (Of course, she did not see it that way.)

 

I have not backed off when she says that. The problem is...she has not seen the need. And I told her that there is one. What she does with it is her problem.

 

What will I do if she does nothing? Then I will no longer expect anything. And yes, I will change myself so that I can move on...sooner or later.

[JamesM]

Why did she feel she needed to capture you? Had you become elusive, distant, seemingly no longer captive? Why was she uncertain of you then?

 

Because I got mad and told her to read a book that I was reading called The Sexless Marriage. I told her then that she should not mind if I cheated since she did not like sex and considered it unnecessary. And then I think she was scared I might follow through.

 

 

 

This is kinda the reaction I expect now. A short term solution.

 

It is supper time. Bye for now.

[Trialbyfire]

Perhaps I did not make myself clear, but in our last phone conversation I left it with her. If it is hormonal, then follow through with the doctor appointment. Even if it is me, then let me know. Whatever the reason, she needs to change herself...I cannot. I did make it clear that whatever the reason I cannot change her. She knows how I have tried...she admitted to that.

 

I told her plainly that expecting me to be faithful while she desires celibacy is not fair. Both are cheating. (Of course, she did not see it that way.)

 

I have not backed off when she says that. The problem is...she has not seen the need. And I told her that there is one. What she does with it is her problem.

 

What will I do if she does nothing? Then I will no longer expect anything. And yes, I will change myself so that I can move on...sooner or later.

Most definitely, she's pulling the passive-aggressive act. Impossible to combat.

 

The ball's in her court now. Love or match.