"If you want sex, then you will have to get it somewhere else."

[Untouchable_Fire]

James, IMO, there's a strong thread of power struggle in your marriage. You are a controlling and dominant personality type, whether you mean to or not, whether you get her input or not. She fights a lifelong battle with her foundational past and yet, appears to create a similar dynamic but with her in the driver's seat, at least with sex. So...how do you and she de-escalate this? Have you both been to IC?

 

I've always seen James as too touchy feely to be the dominant type.

 

I would have thought that his problem lies in the opposite direction. That he fails to be strong enough. Most women crave that kind of thing.

[Trialbyfire]

Enlightening, it will be

No offense intended carhill but that sounds so Yoda-ish! :laugh:

[Trialbyfire]

I've always seen James as too touchy feely to be the dominant type.

 

I would have thought that his problem lies in the opposite direction. That he fails to be strong enough. Most women crave that kind of thing.

James is more subtle than that but he gets his way. I'm not knocking James because he is who he is.

[silic0ntoad]

BEST POST ON THIS THREAD... every single word is TRUE!!!!!

 

 

I agree. I haven't proffered any advice just yet. I guess I will now.

 

James, let's assume three things:

 

We all want a healthy marriage.

A healthy Marriage includes sex.

Sex must be both passionate and fun.

 

At least, in my eyes, I would expect that from my marriage (I am not married, but came very close.) If one of those three things is NOT applicable, it can't work.

 

Honestly, this is how I would handle the situation: Talk to the wife about going to see a doctor about libido issues. If she doesn't or refuses, offer an ultimatum. If she again does not offer a permanent fix, or show any willingness to COMPROMISE with love and respect, then she clearly has checked out. An ultimatum may be the only way. If you're going to do this however, make sure you stick to your guns, and that they are loaded.

[PhoenixRise]

Explain further. Because she feels I am in a corner? as stated below?

 

 

 

Understanding your situation, I do not want to be insensitive, but what would an affair do? Or instead of an affair as has been suggested, have someone for sex?

 

Do you see this as perhaps a test to see what will happen?

 

It is unloving, but if sex to her is not always a good thing, then maybe she doesn't see it as so unloving.

 

Sex is an important part of a healthy relationship. If your wife isn't willing to work on the problem and you are not willing to cheat or leave, what can you do?

 

 

 

Yes. It does in the sense that there is anger and resentment. This could all disappear if she changed. It has not lead to an indifference about her. There is still a great love. If there wasn't, then this thread would not be here.

 

 

I think she sees you as in a corner for the reasons I stated in my previous post (don't know how to mulit quote) AND also because she is very secure in the fact that you love her so much.

 

Regarding my situation, my husband had an affair. I would never encourage someone to cheat on their spouse and I hope that is not the impression I gave. Your wife doesn't want you to have an affair either. She only said it because she knows you won't do it.

 

I don't think it is unloving for your wife to have a legitmate problem with sex. I think is is unloving for her to reject you so completely that she tells you to go have sex with someone else. I think it is unloving for her to just decide not to work on it. AND maybe it is not deliberate. It takes a lot of guts to dig deep and deal with childhood issues especially if there was abuse. Right now it seems like your wife is more concerend with avoiding her issues than she is in having a loving healthy relationship with her husband.

 

I don't think it was a test. I think she knew exactly what your reaction would be.

 

Does she know that this rejection is changing how you feel about her?

[JamesM]

I've always seen James as too touchy feely to be the dominant type.

 

I would have thought that his problem lies in the opposite direction. That he fails to be strong enough. Most women crave that kind of thing.

 

James is more subtle than that but he gets his way. I'm not knocking James because he is who he is.

 

I have to decide if either is a compliment.

 

Seriously, I think both are a fair evaluation. I did not take either as an insult. I am impressed at how both comments are what has been told to me in real life.

 

Lizzie, whether she loves me and still does not want sex with me, or if she no longer loves me and that is why she does not want sex....I cannot answer. If I ask her (and I will), then I am guessing that her answer will be that she loves me as before. Does that mean she does? Being that she can deny her own feelings, then we can say no. Does it mean she is lying or denying? I have to say no.

 

As has been said, the key is in how she views sex. The key is in why she views sex as she does. Is sex a way to express love for her, or is it a way to make ME happy? Is it fun or is it a duty? Has her sense of sex been tainted bu her abuse in the past? If I could get answers to those questions, then I would be a bit farther ahead.

 

Counseling....IC and MC....are an option that may be considered. The question then is...will that be a short term solution or a long term solution?

[hotgurl]

So he would better understand my wife as you better understand me?

 

unfortunatly.

 

at least my situation is not as extreme as yours. I think our age difference and retarded schedules and sleep patterns contribute.

 

I wish you luck it is nit a good position to be in.

[carhill]

WRT IC/MC/FC, personally, I see them as a long-term commitment, as long as progress is being made and you can financially afford it. Since I've been chastised for not understanding how a parent feels, let's here how the children feel. Go to a FC and get their feelings out about how the family dynamic is perceived by them. If everything is peachy keen, you invested a hundred bucks in proving my perspective invalid. Happy to apologize, *then*.

 

It took me eight months of MC to get below the anger and defensiveness to the hurt, and another six months to clearly see the reality of our dynamic and my (and her) responsibility within it clearly. YMMV. You never know until you make the commitment. If your wife is unwilling, take the kids and go alone. Let fear be her friend. You don't need friends like that.

[Trialbyfire]

James, there are elements of you that remind me of both my father and my fiance, the two current dominant male figures in my life. You all get your way with women but without the need for brute force, whether emotionally or otherwise. You use a combination of charm, directness and yes, sometimes even subterfuge (manipulation), to get what you want.

 

As for IC being a short-term or long-term solution, that's individual reliant. IC helps to get to the bottom of the issues, rather than just looking at the catalysts/triggers, like sex. It also, if your therapist is good, provides you with ways to reroute certain types of destructive thought processes. After that, it's up to the individual to keep on applying the rerouting of thought processes or not.

[KikiW]

James, i have sent you a PM if you don't tend to see the inbox.

[carhill]

It also, if your therapist is good, provides you with ways to reroute certain types of destructive thought processes. After that, it's up to the individual to keep on applying the rerouting of thought processes or not.

 

I never had IC specifically, but had portions during MC (individual sessions) with the same psychologist. Your assessment mirrors my experience. I see the results every day now. You *can* change the way you think and behave, even if the underlying psychological perspective remains similar.

 

Maybe IC can help James change his behaviors and processing of the M. If he does choose to stay, maybe IC can help him stay in a healthier manner, both for himself and his family. Give it a try

[SadandConfusedWA]

It is clear to me that wife is the dominant one here. She holds all the cards. Her refusal to have (regular) sex for years and James's reaction of basically trying anything under the sun to fix the problem has strengthened this dynamic.

 

She said what she said because she knows James would never leave her or step outside of marriage. She knows (exactly as James said) that she can never have sex with him again and he will still want to be with her. He said that being with her even without the sex is better than being with anyone else. She is fully aware of this and therefore holds all the power, dominance etc in the marriage. Who makes small everyday decisions doesn't really matter.

 

She has also never experienced a real threat of losing James. My guess is that if he was genuinely interested in another woman and she sensed her power over him slipping away, she would shape up - but only temporarily.

 

This dynamic of her having all the power (where it matters) in the marriage has been there for so long that it is next to impossible to change. She would respect James so much more if he actually stood up for himself over the sex issue and decided that he wasn't being treated right and that he is going to leave. But of course, he will never do that. Thus, the dynamic stays ingrained forever.

 

My guess is that the W not only doesn't love James (in a romantic way) that one is obvious from mile away, but has stepped outside of marriage at some point. That her sex drive would magically recover with another partner.

 

Sadly James doesn't see this and will stay in sexless marriage because he is simply too weak to do otherwise.

 

It's almost funny to me when someone questioned who the dominant partner is... how obvious that one is.

[JackJack]

Good grief James I don't know what else to say. Its like going around and around in circles, and I'm sure you're getting dizzy.

 

I'm starting to wonder myself if maybe as another poster put it a few pages back, if in fact at some point, maybe she had an affair as well, and can't bring herself to tell you, I hope I'm wrong.

 

I say sit her down TONIGHT, and ask her until SHE can't take it anymore for her to let you know WHAT it is and WHY it is she feels with way she does. I don't care what people say, a person doe not just wake up and say, "I don't think I like sex much anymore." Something triggered it, and you have the right to know.

[Untouchable_Fire]

James is more subtle than that but he gets his way. I'm not knocking James because he is who he is.

 

In reading your follow up I see what you mean and I agree. I was thinking in terms of brute force type personality.

 

I have to decide if either is a compliment.

Seriously, I think both are a fair evaluation. I did not take either as an insult. I am impressed at how both comments are what has been told to me in real life.

Lizzie, whether she loves me and still does not want sex with me, or if she no longer loves me and that is why she does not want sex....I cannot answer. If I ask her (and I will), then I am guessing that her answer will be that she loves me as before. Does that mean she does? Being that she can deny her own feelings, then we can say no. Does it mean she is lying or denying? I have to say no.

As has been said, the key is in how she views sex. The key is in why she views sex as she does. Is sex a way to express love for her, or is it a way to make ME happy? Is it fun or is it a duty? Has her sense of sex been tainted bu her abuse in the past? If I could get answers to those questions, then I would be a bit farther ahead.

Counseling....IC and MC....are an option that may be considered. The question then is...will that be a short term solution or a long term solution?

 

Well, you need to understand how she views sex. In order to do that you need to look at when she has sex. What conditions did you two have a good amount of sex under?

 

Before you met... did she ever use sex to get a guy to like her, or to get attention from him?

 

I agree with TBF that there is some kind of control thing going on. With some complicating factors like a good chunk of resentment. She may be super angry with you over something in the past. Maybe a lack of bonding early on with the children... ect.

[Sweetcheripie]

I have to decide if either is a compliment.

 

Seriously, I think both are a fair evaluation. I did not take either as an insult. I am impressed at how both comments are what has been told to me in real life.

 

Lizzie, whether she loves me and still does not want sex with me, or if she no longer loves me and that is why she does not want sex....I cannot answer. If I ask her (and I will), then I am guessing that her answer will be that she loves me as before. Does that mean she does? Being that she can deny her own feelings, then we can say no. Does it mean she is lying or denying? I have to say no.

 

As has been said, the key is in how she views sex. The key is in why she views sex as she does. Is sex a way to express love for her, or is it a way to make ME happy? Is it fun or is it a duty? Has her sense of sex been tainted bu her abuse in the past? If I could get answers to those questions, then I would be a bit farther ahead.

 

Counseling....IC and MC....are an option that may be considered. The question then is...will that be a short term solution or a long term solution?

 

 

I really think a good therapist would be helpful. From what I'm reading, you are a wonderful husband and father. Everyone is giving good advice but no one seems to be focusing in on her previous abuse (maybe I missed it) but I think this is definitely related to her childhood sexual abuse. Has she ever been to therapy for that abuse? I think you said she just goes into denial.

 

Hitting her 40's the abuse may just be gurgling up. You can stuff it for years but at some point you can't stuff it down anymore. Early on, sex can be tolerated to the abuse victim because it is necessary to procreate - there is a purpose. Even dating, the abuse victim can consider it a way to relate.

 

I really hope you both can work this out. It may sound really weird but it maybe because she loves you so much and that she is finally feeling safe in her life that the pain is starting to reach the surface and she is stuffing it down by not having sex with you. Sex for an abuse victim - especially if it was chronic abuse, is not sex as we see it. Just in a quick google I found this for adults that suffered childhood sexual abuse:

 

What Problems are Caused by Sexual Abuse?

 

Major Sexual Symptoms of Sexual Abuse

1. Difficulty with becoming aroused and feeling sensations
   
2. Sex feels like an obligation
   
3. Sexual thoughts and images that are disturbing
   
4. Inappropriate sexual behaviors or sexual compulsivity
   
5. Vaginal pain
   
6. Inability to achieve orgasm or other orgasmic difficulties
   
7. Erections problems or ejaculatory difficulty
   
8. Feeling dissociated while having sex
   
9. Detachment or emotional distance while having sex
   
10. Being afraid of sex or avoiding sex
    
11. Guilt, fear, anger, disgust or other negative feelings when being touched
    

I may be WAY off base but if she was sexually abused as a child - help her get to therapy. Find an expert in your area. This will not be an easy road but you totally sound like you are in it for the long haul and she is SO lucky to have you!

[Lizzie60]

Take the kids and your W to a family counseling session. Enlightening, it will be

 

 

Well.. I think I took you for another poster when I said that I usually agree with most of your posts... again.. I have to strongly disagree...

 

James .. PLEASE DO NOT TAKE THE CHILDREN to this councelling session.. this is purely a 'sex' issue.. they have no business in this problem..

[carhill]

Lizzie, get your mind off of sex. Since you're so vociferous about my obvious ignorance about parenting, I want to get professional input. I want James to hear firsthand how a counselor elicits observations and feelings from children. He's admitted to a problem; he's admitted that the problem affects his marriage. Why should he (or you) fear a competent neutral party examining it. What is your fear?

[Island Girl]

James .. PLEASE DO NOT TAKE THE CHILDREN to this councelling session.. this is purely a 'sex' issue.. they have no business in this problem..

 

James the counselor will be able to determine what is appropriate or not.

 

They are not going to involve the children in anything they shouldn't be involved in. :rolleyes:

 

TAKE THEM.

 

The counselor may want to talk to them privately and get an idea of what they are feeling/observing in the household or ideas they may be coming up with on their own as answers to their own questions.

[Lizzie60]

I have never ever been abused sexually by anyone.. I was just like James' wife with my first ex.. lasted for about 12 years before I decided to leave. I had sex about 2 a week... but it was pure torture.. I hated it.

 

My best friend has also been married for over 25 years.. she said she would live completely sexless if it was just for her.. she said she hates sex.. but she loves her husband. She stays because her lifestyle is amazing.. He stays cause I'm sure he's cheating.. plus he also gets the lifestyle (Porsches, he got 2) and the huge house on the river... the investments.. etc.

 

My MM from work.. is in the same situation, they have sex about once every 6-7 weeks.. do the math.. about 8-9 times year ... He looooves sex.. and he's very good at it.. They have a good life together, never fight in front of the kids..they have 2 (still at home).. nice house, etc.. etc... they are great parents.. very busy with their kids. She is happy cause he doesn't bother her anymore.. he's not even arguing/nagging about it.. he stays cause he gets is outside... and their M is good..

 

I can go on and on..

[Lizzie60]

Lizzie, get your mind off of sex. Since you're so vociferous about my obvious ignorance about parenting, I want to get professional input. I want James to hear firsthand how a counselor elicits observations and feelings from children. He's admitted to a problem; he's admitted that the problem affects his marriage. Why should he (or you) fear a competent neutral party examining it. What is your fear?

 

Huh??? I have no fear... I am not the one with my mind stuck with the 'sex'...

 

JAMES (his couple) DO NOT HAVE PROBLEMS WITH THE KIDS.. THE PROBLEM IS ABOUT THEIR SEX LIFE...

 

Why bring the children when the problem is her libido.. that doesn't make sense to me... :rolleyes:

[Sweetcheripie]

I don't think it is appropriate to bring four kids between the ages of 7 and 13 and I don't think there is a qualified therapist out there that would trot them all in - in the first session

[carhill]

Bingo. One of my stbx's clients is a clinical psychologist and works in this field. They're very adept at dealing with relationship dynamics and what is appropriate and inappropriate for children. It isn't kids watching mommy and daddy fight in front of a shrink, not even remotely. That's not how it works.

 

Our MC handled my stbx's childhood (very unhealthy) with delicate care and, as appropriate, away from our joint sessions. That dynamic increased my confidence in the process, regardless of how it turned out. No fear.

[Lizzie60]

James the counselor will be able to determine what is appropriate or not.

 

They are not going to involve the children in anything they shouldn't be involved in. :rolleyes:

 

TAKE THEM.

 

The counselor may want to talk to them privately and get an idea of what they are feeling/observing in the household or ideas they may be coming up with on their own as answers to their own questions.

 

 

Why would they do that.. why would they put this idea in the children's mind that there is a problem.. when the problem doesn't concern them...

 

I just don't get it..

 

and what if they fall on a crappy councellor.. who has no idea what he's doing.. and involve the kids.. and do more harm than good... that could be a problem I'm sure James to NOT need over what he's already going through.

[Lizzie60]

I don't think it is appropriate to bring four kids between the ages of 7 and 13 and I don't think there is a qualified therapist out there that would trot them all in - in the first session

 

 

Well said.. Thank you... Finally someone who understands that the kids are not part of the problem...

[carhill]

OK, James, forget the kids, since they're not part of the problem and they are not affected by your marriage. Let's presume you don't have any kids. How would you proceed?